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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / July 2006

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Defective Tire(s)

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phaeton - 06 Jul 2006 23:27 GMT
Sorry guys, I need to vent.

Got a set of 4 Goodyear ATD2s on my 99 Ranger from Sam's Club as a
birthday gift last summer from the gf.  All my misgivings about
Sams/Walmart aside, it seemed like a sensible thing to do- I had almost
100K on the original Firestone Blowup Tires and they were hard as a
rock and dry rotten everywhere.  I have no complaints about the
Goodyears, really.  They look nice, ride relatively nice and quiet, and
are awesome in the rain and snow.

However, I've been back to Sam's club several times in the last 17K to
have them re-balanced.  Each time they tell me "oh yeah, there was XXX
oz. off on one of them", where "XXX" is usually 1.25 to 2.5 oz.  With
all due respect to these guys my own former experience in working with
tires suggests that 2.5 oz is kind of a *lot*.  More on that later.
Yet each time I'd take it to them, they'd do their thing and when I
drive away the truck would shake and shimmy just like when I took it
in.  Sometimes the speed at which it was most evident would change, but
usually it was 25, 45 and 65.

So after awhile I thought that maybe their balancing machine was out of
calibration, I had a bent rim, or a messed up tire.  These things
happen, and if any of them are the case I'm not upset at them or
anyone.  That's just the breaks.  So I took it to the local garage down
the road one day for an oil change, brake inspection and to have the
tires rotated.  I usually rotate them @ every oil change.  It's
probably excessive to do it every 3000 but it's been my habit for
years.  I also asked them to spin balance the tires too.  Different
machine, different guys, all that.  This isn't a quicky-lube place
either, it's a real honest-to-goodness and reputable shop.  Had them do
lots of work there and they do it well.  So the tech there immediately
brings me over to show me the right front on the balancer.  He let it
spin and it's definately out of round, with about 2" of motion.
Perfectly balanced, but shaped like an egg.  Ok cool, that explains
everything.

Took it back to Sam's, along with the invoice I got from my mechanic
which states that the right front was out of round.  Sam's said they'd
look at it.  But when they gave it back I got the usual "oh yeah there
was XXX oz. off on one of them".  I explained (nicely) that I wasn't
here for a re-balance, but that there was a defective tire that needs
to be replaced.  The woman behind the desk went back out the door and
talked with her guys at length.  Eventually she came back in and said
"Yeah, he says it's got a 'hop' in it but you just need to rotate it a
few times and that will go away."

I was speechless.  I stopped myself from just screaming at her at the
top of my lungs.  I left to go cool off.  Later when I spoke to them
they still maintained that lack of rotation is the reason for this
tire's condition.  Nevermind that I get them rotated every 3000, and
nevermind that every time they've balanced the tires they put them all
back on different corners than where they came off- sort of defeats
their own argument.  Problem is I can't prove anything after the fact.

I am formerly an ASE-certified auto mechanic myself.  Sure, I haven't
worked in the field for many years, but I *do* know a number of things,
tires being one of them.  I'm not trying to toot my horn or get up on a
high-horse, but when I talk with these guys, it really shakes my faith
in their abilities.  I mean this in the kindest way possible, but
either they're trying to bullshit me, or they are very mis-informed and
ignorant about the job they do.  I realise that's what I get for going
to Sam's and not a real tire store, but nonetheless here's my
connundrum.

I've tried to reason with them, and explain to them as kindly as
possible that rotation has everything to do with even side-to-side
treadwear and fuckall to do with the shape of the tire, and that out of
roundness is either a broken cord, damage from the tire machine or a
molding defect at goodyear.  Nonetheless, I am at their mercy, and
they've apparently got the power.

Of course these tires are Sam's-Specific, I can't just go to a Goodyear
dealer and work with them.  Of course there's no other Sam's with in a
hundred miles or so, and that'd be a pretty rough trip with the tire(s)
like they are.  At 65mph it's like sitting on a washing machine on the
spin-cycle, and at times it slightly affects the ability to control the
vehicle.

It's a real hazard, and something needs to be done.  I could *buy*
another tire from them for $85, but that means they 'win'.  I really
doubt that they deserve any more business if they're going to be this
incompetent.  I could continue to bitch and moan till I'm blue in the
face, but to be honest I'm not much for debating.  I don't like to do
it, and thusfar I've proven that I'm not very effective.  I could go
see if a real, honest-to-goodness tire shop can sell me the closest
thing they have to that tire.  Might make it handle funny, and once
again, I'm the one getting stuck with the problem.  Or I could buy a
whole new set of tires somewhere else and sell 3 of these to recoup the
cost.  I'd have a hard time selling the 4th one to anyone, at least not
without telling them what's wrong with it.

*sigh*

Sorry for the rant.  Any suggestions?  Am I being unreasonable?

thanks

-phaeton
Matt Macchiarolo - 07 Jul 2006 01:01 GMT
Are the tires still under a manufacturer's warranty? Do you have the
receipts for all of the balancings? You should contact Goodyear and tell
them the problem. Definitely do not buy tires at this Sam's again.

> Sorry guys, I need to vent.
>
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
>
> -phaeton
Whitelightning - 07 Jul 2006 03:25 GMT
> Are the tires still under a manufacturer's warranty? Do you have the
> receipts for all of the balancings? You should contact Goodyear and tell
> them the problem. Definitely do not buy tires at this Sam's again.

SamsClub/Walmart says it all. You get what you pay for.  Knowing how much
they pay their
store help do you think they pay the tire thumpers they hire as technicians
any better?

Whitelightning
The OTHER Kevin in San Diego - 08 Jul 2006 04:26 GMT
>> Are the tires still under a manufacturer's warranty? Do you have the
>> receipts for all of the balancings? You should contact Goodyear and tell
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Whitelightning

I think Matt's got the right idea; contact Goodyear and tell them
about the runaround you're getting from the tire weenies @ Sam's.  
Stephen H - 07 Jul 2006 06:32 GMT
"> Took it back to Sam's, along with the invoice I got from my mechanic
> which states that the right front was out of round.  Sam's said they'd
> look at it.  But when they gave it back I got the usual "oh yeah there
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> "Yeah, he says it's got a 'hop' in it but you just need to rotate it a
> few times and that will go away."

I think you need to force your hand. NO REPUTABLE TIRE SHOP would tell you
that a egg shaped tire is from lack of rotation; and that it can be rotated
and will correct itself.

"spin and it's definately out of round, with about 2" of motion.
Perfectly balanced, but shaped like an egg.  Ok cool, that explains
everything."

If what you say is true; and you have 2 inches of motion, then you have a
separated belt. It happens allot in all tires (Not just Firestones set at a
low pressure in hot climates ;)   )
Go back to them and tell them you want a replacement tire OR if they say
it's OK, then you want that in writing so when the tire separates and
damages your truck; or causes a roll over (See Firestone) they will help
with the settlement.

Most people will say anything but to put it in writing stops them cold.

Steve

4.5  years at Firestone
Now working at another place

Signature

Stephen W. Hansen
ASE Certified Master Automobile Technician
ASE Automobile Advanced Engine Performance
ASE Undercar Specialist

http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm
http://www.troublecodes.net/technical/
http://www.familycar.com/Alignment.htm

Scott - 07 Jul 2006 08:58 GMT
> Sorry guys, I need to vent.
>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> -phaeton

They sound like a bunch of dumb a.ses. Tell them you're sending
a letter to your attourney so when the tire blows and you're killed
he knows who  to sue.  But as thick as they sound they may not be
frightened.
Rodan - 07 Jul 2006 09:41 GMT
"phaeton"  wrote:

Got 4 Goodyear ATD2s on my 99 Ranger from Sam's Club.
Tires are demonstrably defective.
Sam's Club will not replace them.
Any suggestions?
________________________________________________

1.)   Buy the good tires you need at another supplier.

2.)   Organize the proof you have collected and file
      suit against Sam's Club in small claims court.

Good luck.

Rodan.
phaeton - 09 Jul 2006 05:59 GMT
Okay.... I'm gonna look like a total a.s here, but I feel I should do
the right thing....  at least the part that I'm liable for.

I went to Sam's today and 'forced my hand' as it was stated.  Someone
different than all the other times dealt with my truck (a semi-deaf kid
with hearing aides and a serious speech impediment, no less).  He took
every tire off and spun it, and in each case took me out to the tire
machine to show me what he saw.   He even pulled the tire off the rim
and spun the rim by itself.

I have 2 bent rims.  I saw the inside flange wobbling myself.

So *this* is the problem.  I wish they would have caught this earlier
(in my many returns for balancing).  I'm a bit baffled that my mechanic
didn't see this, but I guess that happens too, eh?

Now....  all that said....

Everything was *hunky dorey* up until the day that Sam's put the new
tires on.  Immediately after the new tires were put on, my truck shook
like a summabitch.  I have a suspicion that these rims were bent on
Sam's tire machine.   However, i have no way to verify or prove this.
I'm sh.t out of luck.

Doesn't change the fact that I was completely bullshitted the last time
I came in.  That still bothers the hell out of me and as a result I
will *never* buy tires from them again.  It's a local-yokel tire shop
from here on out.

So my next move is to either find 3 stock-steel rims that are
guaranteed "not bent" from a wrecking yard, or spend the $$$ on
alyewminneum rims.  And check the tires again.

Sorry for the venting.  I'm the asshat today.

-phaeton
phaeton - 12 Jul 2006 15:54 GMT
So then, for the record....

One can typically assume that aluminum wheels are never bent, right?
They crack instead, iirc.

I could go down to the local wrecking yard and pick out another set of
steel wheels pretty cheap i imagine, but there's probably no guarantees
that *they're* not bent too.

Ideally, a late-model set of Mustang Cobra GT wheels would look really
nice on my truck >:-) but probably not worth their going price.  I bet
there are all kinds of used aluminum wheels around that are very
affordable.  Probably even some new ones that aren't a whole lot more
than used.

No 5-stars though.  Bleh.  Those were worn out in the 80s, heh.
Stephen N. - 12 Jul 2006 17:37 GMT
> Okay.... I'm gonna look like a total a.s here, but I feel I should do
> the right thing....  at least the part that I'm liable for.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> -phaeton

Thanks for being honest and admitting your mistake.  At least we know
what the real problem was.  I would say that the kid that helped you
gave you excellent service and was really trying to get to the bottom of
the problem.  On the other hand, a good tire shop probably would have
caught the problem on the first shot.

One comment I have is that it is possible that the bent rims were on the
back before the rotation and wobble was not so noticable.  Perhaps one
or both of the bent rims got transferred to the front and the wobble was
much more apparent.  It is possible but not that likely that the rims
got bent when they put the tires on.

Sound reasonable?

Stpehen N.
phaeton - 12 Jul 2006 21:55 GMT
> > -phaeton
>
> Thanks for being honest and admitting your mistake.  At least we know
> what the real problem was.

Well no problem.  I try to be a straight-shooter and give credit (good
or bad) whenever due.

>I would say that the kid that helped you
> gave you excellent service and was really trying to get to the bottom of
> the problem.  On the other hand, a good tire shop probably would have
> caught the problem on the first shot.

Both are true.  That kid should probably go to work at a real tire
shop.  Maybe he'd get paid a real wage for his efforts.

> One comment I have is that it is possible that the bent rims were on the
> back before the rotation and wobble was not so noticable.  Perhaps one
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Sound reasonable?

Sure.  It sounds reasonable.  However, in almost 100K miles of the
previous tires, with regular rotations i felt no wobbling.  They were
smooth as glass.  The very day I had the new tires put on it shook
horribly.  I agree that a tire machine *shouldn't* bend rims, but I
know it's very possible, especially if the operator is complacent or
inexperienced.  My first days using a tire machine many years won me a
couple of prizes- one being a bent steel rim and the other being a
cracked magnesium wheel, both of which took me almost six months to pay
for (not to mention two weeks to find a matching mag wheel from the
early 1970s).

I watched these guys work while the kid was spinning my tires (you can
see them wobble from 20 feet away, btw).  One of the other guys over at
the tire machine put his foot on the air valve that ran the bead
separator and turned to talk to his buddy.  Didn't really watch the
progress of the machine, just let it go till it bottomed out.  Was it
enough to damage the rim he had on it?  Hard to say.  The two rims of
mine that the kid showed me had a definate scuff on the edge of the
bead where they were bent, both of them on the inside flange.  With
brake dust and all, it's hard to tell how long ago they got bent, but I
guess I'll never know, and I suppose it doesn't really matter.

The only thing to do is buy new wheels.

-phaeton
Dave and Trudy - 09 Jul 2006 07:49 GMT
> Sorry guys, I need to vent.
>
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>
> -phaeton
You have every right to vent. This is pure B.S... BTW the rotation is not
moving the tires from one position to another but the actual spinning round
and round as you drive down the road. Again, this is B.S.  Sometimes tires
that are stored upright in a rack will develop a flat spot on the bottom.
This usually goes away when the tire is inflated but sometimes it will
remain flat or oval shaped until it is driven (rotated) with the vehicle
weight upon it. This will go away in 5-10 miles, normally. If the condition
persists, it means that the tire is defective (I would say a manufacturing
defect) and should be replaced... Every tire brand at these "tire stores"
like Wal-mart, KMart, etc. have a vendor representative that visits the
store on a regular basis (at least they used to). I would find out from
Wal-mart when this person is going to be in the store and I would visit the
store and have a nose-to-nose conversation with the rep. These people are
quite knowledgeable, usually and are interested in maintaining good customer
relationships. If you can't go this route, then I would get the customer
service number at Goodyear and layout the situation to them. I can tell you
that had I heard one of my techs or service writers trying to B.S. one of
our customers in such a fashion, they would be looking thru the door from
the outside in....

Dave D
fordtech - 10 Jul 2006 04:02 GMT
Hey Dave D, I'm just curious what do You call the proceedure of moving the
front tires to the rear and rear to front. It's a required maintance practice
that gets more miles out of the tires by evening out the ware between
steering and non steering tires. What is that called? It's tire........., I
think it starts with a R. Tire redistribution? No that not right. Tire
removal and reinstall? That does really describe the event though does it.
Well any way I have to go back out to the shop and finish rotating and
balancing some tires. Let me know if you think of the term. Thanks

>> Sorry guys, I need to vent.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>Dave D
Dave and Trudy - 13 Jul 2006 11:36 GMT
> Hey Dave D, I'm just curious what do You call the proceedure of moving the
> front tires to the rear and rear to front. It's a required maintance
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Well any way I have to go back out to the shop and finish rotating and
> balancing some tires. Let me know if you think of the term. Thanks

Everyone loves a little a.s but nobody likes a WISEASS! You know damn well
what I was getting at, I did misstate myself in that what I intended to say
was the rotation under discussion was the rotation of the tire on the axle
NOT moving them from one position to another. But wait a moment...you are a
Ford Tech...so perhaps you didn't get the gist of my post... AHHHH!!!!
Sorry... I will attempt to be more lucid for you in any following posts!

Dave D

///snipped for brevity/// Uhh that means I cut some out to keep the post
short Ford Tech///
 
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