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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / August 2006

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Red farm grade, off road, high sulfer what ever ya call it

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Big gus - 12 Aug 2006 11:55 GMT
HI all

I will the "skinny" on the red diesel fuel that the law says I am not
supposed to run in my F350

I know we all break the law and was wondering if anyone used the red
diesel on a regular basis?

Any harm?

Any issues?

Can the trucks sensors really detect it?

My ford dealer says don't run it, the truck can detected it and it
will kill my injectors.

I have run a few tank full an it really ran better.

Thanks
M
Doc - 12 Aug 2006 15:20 GMT
BS! Last year after Hurricane Katrina hit there was a big fuel shortage here
in Louisiana so the groverment for a short time allowed station to sell red
diesel (aka. offroad diesel). Never had any problems with it. The reason
your dealer thinks you should not use it because it has more sulfur than
onroad diesel and it may interfere with sensors.

> HI all
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Thanks
> M
Rowbotth - 12 Aug 2006 16:03 GMT
Speaking as one who was raised on a farm...

The red diesel has less tax associated with it, here anyway, and is only
supposed to be used by farmers when in the endeavor of producing food
for your table.  If the farmer has a diesel car, it is illegal to use
this red diesel because the government is not extracting the taxes to
which they have become  accustomed from this fuel up.  It is also
illegal to use this diesel in a pickup when the farmer is not headed for
town on business.

Or at least that was the case a few years ago.

H.

> BS! Last year after Hurricane Katrina hit there was a big fuel shortage here
> in Louisiana so the groverment for a short time allowed station to sell red
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> > Thanks
> > M
SnoMan - 12 Aug 2006 16:21 GMT
>The red diesel has less tax associated with it, here anyway, and is only
>supposed to be used by farmers when in the endeavor of producing food
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>illegal to use this diesel in a pickup when the farmer is not headed for
>town on business.

It is also used as heating oil which is not taxed.  
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
My Names Nobody - 12 Aug 2006 19:11 GMT
> HI all
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Thanks
> M

The crime is TAX evasion, and the federal government takes it very
seriously.  It is very common for them to dip-check pickup trucks at
auctions in the mid-west.

Couldn't have said this better myself, so I am copying it from another
source:

The people you have to worry about when running dyed fuel on the highway is
the IRS. They're the ones who typically decide where to set up a checkpoint,
and the state and local law enforcement people just assist them with the
operation.

They don't look in your tank. They pull a sample and check for the presence
of dye. The test they use is sensitive enough that you may have run several
hundred gallons of undyed fuel thru the system since you last used dyed, but
it will still pick up traces of the dye and they've gotcha.

Right now a person is better off to buy highway diesel than dyed fuel even
for off road use. Why? The typical oil distributor learns from his supplier
and gouges on prices for dyed fuel. You buy the highway fuel, currently
about 10 cents more than dyed, BUT, you file for a refund of the state road
tax since you're using it off road. We did that for years with our cranes
because NC says they're off road equipment even though they were tagged and
run on the highway. You run the highway fuel because the Feds say anything
on a road must run taxed fuel, but the state rebates their part of the tax
back to you when you file for the refund. We switched to highway fuel after
we got caught with dyed fuel at a checkpoint run by the IRS. They were
prepared to fine us in the neighborhood of $30K, but we had a letter from
the state saying it was permissible to run dyed fuel in off road equipment
that travels on the highway from one site to another, such as mobile cranes.
The guy from the IRS was decent about it, and explained that the Federal
regulations required taxed fuel in ANYTHING traveling on the highway. He did
not levy the fine although he could have. In our conversation with him, he
told us something that was sorta interesting. He works all over NC doing the
fuel checks, and he said here in the mountains you'd catch a lot of pickups
running dyed fuel, but few larger trucks. OTOH, in the eastern part of the
state he said you hardly ever caught anyone running it in a pickup but
plenty of larger trucks tried it.

If it was really worthwhile to run dyed fuel, the simplest thing would be to
let the vehicle tank (on a pickup for instance) be filled with highway fuel,
but pipe the engine supply from one of the off-road tanks you often see in
the bed of pickups. They don't check to see where the fuel lines are hooked
up, so you could get away with that. Right now though, dyed #2 is about
$2.90 + 7% sales tax here, and highway fuel is about $3.09, so there's no
savings to be had anyway. Depending on price swings, highway fuel is cheaper
than dyed at times, even though its price includes close to 30 cents in NC
road tax that's not on the dyed fuel.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=
1;t=023430;p=0

My Names Nobody - 12 Aug 2006 19:20 GMT
Oh, and in some areas the only difference between the two (besides the tax)
is the red dye.  That particular distributor simply dyes the off-road/non
taxed fuel, and doesn't dye the over the road/highway taxed fuel, all the
exact same fuel before it is dyed...

Some places even sell un-dyed off road fuel, because they only have one
tank, but use an on road pump with tax and an off road pump without tax to
pump from it.  But that is another story.  :-0

>> HI all
>>
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=
1;t=023430;p=0
CJB - 12 Aug 2006 19:40 GMT
> They don't look in your tank. They pull a sample and check for the
> presence of dye. The test they use is sensitive enough that you may have
> run several hundred gallons of undyed fuel thru the system since you last
> used dyed, but it will still pick up traces of the dye and they've gotcha.

This makes no sense.  What if you used the truck off-road for a while, using
off road fuel, then bought on-road fuel to drive on road.  You've complied
with the letter of the law.  The presence of dye residue is of no
consequence.

CJB
My Names Nobody - 12 Aug 2006 19:56 GMT
>> They don't look in your tank. They pull a sample and check for the
>> presence of dye. The test they use is sensitive enough that you may have
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> CJB

Since when do you expect the federal government let alone the IRS to make
sense?  This is true, we had a guy right on the highway here have an
accident, his fuel tank was ruptured, the state police officer who responded
could obviously see the red OFF road fuel, he ended up paying their fine.

Besides it makes more sense than many things they do.  Any vehicle LICENSED
as an on/over the road vehicle, MUST pay fuel tax, no matter where you use
it. The vehicles that legally qualify to use off road tax free fuel are not
street licensed pickup trucks.
Whitelightning - 12 Aug 2006 22:28 GMT
> This makes no sense.  What if you used the truck off-road for a while, using
> off road fuel, then bought on-road fuel to drive on road.  You've complied
> with the letter of the law.  The presence of dye residue is of no
> consequence.
>
> CJB

Your confusing playing in the mud with off road use. Off road vehicles are
farm tractors, harvesters, bull dozers, graders and other construction and
logging equipment, boats, etc. If its got a tag on it for highway use, its
not an off road vehicle.
If you have a water truck for wetting down roads under construction and its
trailered between sites, its eligible, if its got a tag and is driven its
not. And  the dye presence doesn't  stays as long as one reader suggested,
Diesel does have solvent properties.  And red fuel has been approved for
general use in emergencies in the past, such as in the gulf coast areas hit
by hurricanes last years.

Whitelightning
Big Al - 13 Aug 2006 15:47 GMT
> > This makes no sense.  What if you used the truck off-road for a while,
> using
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Whitelightning

A guy that had an excavating company here got caught using it in his dump
trucks. Lost his business and home. From what I read in the newspaper a cop
at the dump saw the red dye in the exhaust pipe of one of the trucks and
they checked them all. Can you really see it in the exhaust pipe or was that
BS?

Al
Whitelightning - 13 Aug 2006 17:33 GMT
BS

Whitelightning
Rowbotth - 13 Aug 2006 18:33 GMT
> > > This makes no sense.  What if you used the truck off-road for a while,
> > using
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Al

I'd have to go along with the BS Contingent.  Diesel engines burn a lot
hotter than gasoline, and with gasoline all you get is water vapour
dripping off the exhaust.  No diesel engine operating with enough
efficiency to move a truck should have dye getting through to the
exhaust.

H.
My Names Nobody - 13 Aug 2006 20:23 GMT
>> > This makes no sense.  What if you used the truck off-road for a while,
>> using
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Al

Could have very easily seen it in a fuel leak or in on or around the fuel
tank...
Rowbotth - 13 Aug 2006 00:46 GMT
> > They don't look in your tank. They pull a sample and check for the
> > presence of dye. The test they use is sensitive enough that you may have
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> CJB

When they say off-road, they generally mean unlicensed and in the
endeavor of some industrial type of activity.  They are not talking
about a licensed vehicle that is taken out to get muddy every few
weekends.  That guy still gets to pay for the tax.

H.
My Names Nobody - 12 Aug 2006 21:03 GMT
> HI all
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Thanks
> M

More information about cheating the tax man.

Any use of dyed diesel fuel or dyed kerosene. In fact, you may be subject to
a substantial penalty if you use dyed fuel as a fuel in a registered
diesel-powered highway vehicle
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/industries/article/0,,id=99855,00.html

Motor vehicle.   For the purpose of applying the tax on the delivery of
special motor fuels, motor vehicles include all types of vehicles, whether
or not registered (or required to be registered) for highway use, that have
both the following characteristics.
 a.. They are propelled by a motor.

 b.. They are designed for carrying or towing loads from one place to
another, regardless of the type of material or load carried or towed.

Motor vehicles do not include any vehicle that moves exclusively on rails,
or any of the following items: farm tractors, trench diggers, power shovels,
bulldozers, road graders, road rollers, and similar equipment that does not
carry or tow a load.
http://www.irs.gov/publications/p510/ch01.html#d0e1795

Dyed Diesel Fuel Penalty Waived in Florida Due to Hurricane Wilma
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=150042,00.html

Don't get caught in the red Agencies checking for dyed diesel fuel (July
1995)

Don't get caught with the wrong colored diesel fuel. Red dye is added to tax
exempt fuel at the refinery or terminal to make it traceable. Fuel taxed for
use on roads is clear or has a yellowish tint. If an inspection of the fuel
tanks on a vehicle used on the roads of this state reveals a different
color, samples of the suspect fuel are sent to a laboratory for analysis.
Truckers with colored diesel fuel are subject to fines.

Department of Transportation and Development (DOTD) and Internal Revenue
Service officials have recently set up operations to test the fuel in the
tanks of trucks traveling Louisiana highways. The Department of Revenue and
Taxation is cooperating

with the IRS and DOTD in cracking down on fuel tax evaders. Those drivers
caught using exempt fuel on the road will be required to pay the taxes due,
and will be subject to fines of $1000, or $10 per gallon of improperly used
fuel, whichever amount is greater. Repeat violations bring higher fines.

Since it is illegal both to use the taxexempt fuel on the road, or to hold
it or sell it for on-the-road use, the owner of a tank containing fuel to be
used illegally is also subject to penalties.

The dyed-fuel inspection program is one of many joint Federal-State
compliance projects currently in progress.

http://www.rev.state.la.us/forms/publications/tt(07_95).pdf

The average fine for using Red-dye fuel on the road is over $10,000.00. It
is a Federal IRS violation. Get caught twice--Over $50K! It Will NOT flush
out of the system. I used to catch these guys all the time!

It is supposed to be higher sulphur, but with supply and demand, according
to the guys that make it and the guys that haul or load it, most is low
sulphur with dye added. I think most diesel gurus say your truck will run
better with the higher sulphur. Maybe it has a higher cetane number, I know
biodiesel does. I never noticed any mileage decrease but, if there was it
was way more than offset by the cost. There is a steep fine if you get
caught. Rumors say farm tags are good to have if you are running it, because
it is an off-road fuel. Farmers and ranchers, drilling rigs and other
oilfield related machinery may use it because they are not highway driven
vehicles. If you use your vehicle on the road you must pay road tax on your
fuel and that is the difference between red and clear and there used to be a
blue or something that was low tax for certain things.

http://www.johndee.com/discuss/messages/9/8620.html?1152918113
Big gus - 13 Aug 2006 12:38 GMT
WOW

this answered my question

I did not intend this to stir a big TAX discussion,

I was wondering how many people actually did it
and if there was any problems

I have run a few tanks through and so far the truck runs better on the
red, then the clear.

Another reason why I was asking is, diesel is 3.09 a gallon here
and the "red stuff" is 2.29 a gallon

a considerable savings.

I have a large tank in my yard and the local fuel depot delivers for
free.

Thanks

>HI all
>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>Thanks
>M
Ken Finney - 14 Aug 2006 21:35 GMT
> WOW
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>>Thanks
>>M

Might be a moot point on the "2007 and beyond" diesels, I'm guessing that
red fuel will screw up the emission controls.
 
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