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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / January 20072004 check engine lite
I have a 2004 f150xlt with 5.4l eng. 9,000 miles, and its still under warantee....The fail safe lite comes on, and goes out when I restart the engine...after several times, I reseated the gas cap...Now the check engine lite is on...I lifted the neg terminal on the battery to reset the computer, and Its ok now....This has happened several times. I have gone to the dealer and the lite was out..They claim ford will not pay for any diagnostic test, unless the check engine lite remains on so they can pull the code. They claim that 90% of the time its the gas cap....I would appreciate any input on this...Thanks in advance. >I have a 2004 f150xlt with 5.4l eng. 9,000 miles, and its still under >warantee....The fail safe lite comes on, and goes out when I restart the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >the code. They claim that 90% of the time its the gas cap....I would >appreciate any input on this...Thanks in advance. Take your truck to an Auto Zone Parts Store and they will read the code for you at no charge. They also will look up the code in their computer to tell you exactly what it means. http://www.autozone.com/ Joe > >lite is on...I lifted the neg terminal on the battery to reset the > >computer, and Its ok now.... > Take your truck to an Auto Zone Parts Store and they will read the code for > you at no charge. They also will look up the code in their computer to tell > you exactly what it means. > > http://www.autozone.com/ If the light hasn't come back on since he pulled the battery cable and CLEARED the codes there wont be anything to read. Whitelightning > I have a 2004 f150xlt with 5.4l eng. 9,000 miles, and its still under > warantee....The fail safe lite comes on, and goes out when I restart the > engine...after several times, I reseated the gas cap...Now the check engine > lite is on...I lifted the neg terminal on the battery to reset the computer, > and Its ok now....This has happened several times. I have gone to the dealer ... for this conversation Fail Safe Lite = Check Engine Light The check engine light is triggered when one of the computer systems related to power train management detects a problem. As you noticed, most OBDII generation vehicles will throw a check engine light if the Gas cap is not tight, as they measure fuel tank pressure and control vapor exhaust to meet proper American mandated emmissions standards. Called the vapor recovery system, a loose gas cap or a faulty gas cap can cause the system to notice a change in pressure during a period that it hasn't called for a change to occur. Gas caps have a pressure vent in them that should be sealed unless pressure becomes too great, if that vent fails, it'll vent all the time and thus will also cause the check engine light to fail. You can go to Autozone, Checker and some other local auto parts stores and if the Check Engine Light is currently on, they will help you to pull the error code out of the computer and let you know what it means. The goal of these stores is to then sell you parts to fix the problem. (of course the error doesn't always point to a problem directly) So if you can find one of these places when you have the check engine light on, you'll have a good chance of finding out what the engine is complaining about. Otherwise, most repair shops have diagnostic computers (not necessarily just FORD) and they can see more things than the code scanners at the parts stores. For a $50-$75 fee, most shops will hook their diagnostic computer up to your truck and try and see what's wrong for ya. http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm I posted a link that will help you understand the OBD II diagnostics. ALL you need is a scan tool that is easily connected to the diagnostic port located along the bottom edge of the dash board, generally over your left leg as you are driving. The port _might_ be behind a cover that is clearly marked as OBD. The scan tool can be purchased for anywhere from about $50 to about $150, with the higher priced units having more features. I haven't bought one yet, but I'm looking at the Actron brand unit in the $80 price point. It appears to have the best combination of features for the home mechanic. Pulling codes is a charge service at the dealership. (I happen to think that car dealers are making a huge mistake to charge for this service because there is no practicle reason the service writer can't pull codes for free before they write the service ticket.) I'm not sure that 90% of the time is really the gas cap, but a loose cap is certainly a problem that will come and go. You really need to pull the code before you go off and try to fix stuff. AutoZone stores have the scan tool that you can use free of charge. In California, they have to let you pull the codes because the mechanics said that counter clerks were engaging in diagnostic work that resulted in mechanics kids going to school without shoes or breakfast. I've heard that in the other states, the stoere clerk will connect the scan tool and pull codes for you. I know that in Calif., you can buy the loaner tool and take it home for a few days, then return it for a full refund when you are finished with your repairs. OR, you can take the tool out to the parking lot and use for free, then return it to the store, where they hope you will buy a shopping cart full of parts ... >I have a 2004 f150xlt with 5.4l eng. 9,000 miles, and its still under >warantee....The fail safe lite comes on, and goes out when I restart the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >the code. They claim that 90% of the time its the gas cap....I would >appreciate any input on this...Thanks in advance. > http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > The scan tool can be purchased for anywhere from about $50 to about $150, > with the higher priced units having more features. Code readers are $50.00-$150.00 Real scan tools run from $800.00 (software) to $8000.00 (stand alone) > I haven't bought one yet, > but I'm looking at the Actron brand unit in the $80 price point. It appears [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is no practicle reason the service writer can't pull codes for free before > they write the service ticket.) The practical reason being; 1) the cost of an OEM level scan tool. 2) Pulling codes is not the same as a diagnosis. 3) It's not the SWs job. 4) It has value if you want it, if it has value, charge for it. > I'm not sure that 90% of the time is really the gas cap, but a loose cap is > certainly a problem that will come and go. You really need to pull the code [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > that counter clerks were engaging in diagnostic work that resulted in > mechanics kids going to school without shoes or breakfast. Actually it's because California has laws that mandate that people doing emissions work need to be certified and the Autozone counter droids weren't certified, and because the counter droids were erasing fault codes and freeze frame data making legitimate diagnosis ~that~ much harder and prolonged for the legitimate shops AND the motorist, and because they were resetting emissions monitors without knowing or informing the motorist of the consequences. IOWs, they were causing more harm than good. > I've heard that > in the other states, the stoere clerk will connect the scan tool and pull [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and use for free, then return it to the store, where they hope you will buy > a shopping cart full of parts ... Which all pretty much makes for a big waste of time when they realize they don't have the needed training to know what it is they're looking for or the tinker toy tool doesn't support the $mode capability to effect a proper diagnosis. >> http://autorepair.about.com/cs/troubleshooting/l/bl_obd_main.htm >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > 3) It's not the SWs job. > 4) It has value if you want it, if it has value, charge for it. I think there is value for a dealership to advertise, "we will scan your computer for free." The service writers can easily be trained to plug in a simple scan tool (code reader) that displays the trouble code. If the code is one of the simple ones (Evap. System leak -- usually a gas cap installation problem) then the operator can safely be sent on his way. If the code returns, then the operator returns and repairs can be affected with a higher level of diagnostic tool. Pulling codes should NOT be something that is limited to secrecy in a distant back room. There is no reason a Service Writer can not pull codes from a post-'96 car or truck, and note the code on the service ticket if the car needs to be left for service. I have pulled codes on several cars and trucks, and if I can do it, anybody can do it. It is easy. Indeed, I see no reason that the car not be able to display the codes to the owner through a display that is already built into the car. Information is power, and consumers should not be denied information. >> I'm not sure that 90% of the time is really the gas cap, but a loose cap >> is [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > they're looking for or the tinker toy tool doesn't support the > $mode capability to effect a proper diagnosis. On Board Diagnostics is not nearly as difficult as you make it sound. Sure, there are lots of people that can't do anything more difficult than fill the gas tank, but there are plenty of people that can fix a car is the car tells them what is wrong. > I think there is value for a dealership to advertise, "we will scan your > computer for free." Go ahead, buy a dealership and have at it. Be sure and report back here and describe the impending mayhem and wasted resources that ensue with every Tom, Dick and Harry clogging up your service write-up area at zero profit. I've seen enough of this same scenario in the last 37 years to know that it's a waste and cheapens the value of the service. > The service writers can easily be trained to plug in a > simple scan tool (code reader) that displays the trouble code. If the code > is one of the simple ones (Evap. System leak -- usually a gas cap > installation problem) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Spoken like someone who knows enough to be dangerous. > then the operator can safely be sent on his way. How do you -know- they can be safely sent on their way? How do you propose to verify that the vehicle malfunction has been corrected? Under the right circumstances, it can take weeks for an EVAP monitor to run and pass. You do realize that EVAP monitors won't run if the fuel level is above XX level or below xx level, don't you? What do you think the EPA and CARB position is on this sort of half-assed attempt at repairing a SES light? (clue; it isn't good) > If the code returns, then the operator returns and repairs can be affected with > a higher level of diagnostic tool. The EPA and CARB will seriously frown on such methods. One should know a little bit about what is mandated WRT emissions repairs before they go spouting off with 'better ideas.' > Pulling codes should NOT be something that is limited to secrecy in a > distant back room. It isn't and never has been. The equipment is available to anyone who wants it, the service information is available to anyone who wants it. It (code retrieval) used to be as simple as straightening out a paper clip and stuffing it into a connector. People did and still do manage to f.ck it up. > There is no reason a Service Writer can not pull codes > from a post-'96 car or truck, and note the code on the service ticket if the > car needs to be left for service. And this accomplishes what and why would the mechanic assigned the work order want to take the chance? > I have pulled codes on several cars and trucks, and if I can do it, anybody > can do it. You're confusing "pulling codes" with diagnostics. > It is easy. To bad it bears minimal relevance to repairing the vehicle. > Indeed, I see no reason that the car not be able to > display the codes to the owner through a display that is already built into > the car. Already been done. Had minimal impact WRT customer satisfaction. I know where my appendix is, but I sure as hell ain't gonna attempt removal myself. > Information is power, and consumers should not be denied > information. Again, consumers are not nor have they ever been "denied information." Without Googling, do you know what NASTF is? > On Board Diagnostics is not nearly as difficult as you make it sound. You've "pulled codes on several cars," I'm sure you know all there is to know... Then tell me what was wrong with a 1998 Chevy Suburban with a P0302. SES light on, P0302 stored, missfire counter for cylinder #2 has a rolling count. All other parameters are normal/in spec. > Sure, > there are lots of people that can't do anything more difficult than fill the > gas tank, but there are plenty of people that can fix a car is the car tells > them what is wrong. I'll keep that in mind should they introduce a car with that capability. Your belief that such already exists betrays your level of knowledge on the subject. >> I think there is value for a dealership to advertise, "we will scan your >> computer for free." [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and wasted resources that ensue with every Tom, Dick and Harry > clogging up your service write-up area at zero profit. I think that when Tom, Dick, and/or Harry pulls into the Service Line, the dealership has pretty much captured the customer. As you pointed out, MOST if the time the service writer is not capable of diagnosing a problem, but sometimes he is, and those times should be a free service. > I've seen enough of this same scenario in the last 37 years to > know that it's a waste and cheapens the value of the service. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > One should know a little bit about what is mandated WRT emissions > repairs before they go spouting off with 'better ideas.' CARB -- California Air Resources Board. Let's talk about these guys for a moment. It's in California that consumers HAVE to pull their own codes if they use the Loaner Tool Program at AutoZone, or any other store that has such a program. In other states, the store clerk is allowed/directed to pull the codes. Surely the store clerk hasn't got as much on the ball as a Service Writer working for a Dealership. Surely. And, there is no way in hell that a consumer is likely to have more on the ball than a service writer -- some consumers will, but most will not and any consumer can go to AutoZone and pull codes. So, CARB is not a big player in this discussion. >> Pulling codes should NOT be something that is limited to secrecy in a >> distant back room. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > paper clip and stuffing it into a connector. People did and > still do manage to f.ck it up. Yes, but when it was that simple, there were literally hundreds of combinations on how and where to connect the paper clip. OBD II made it even simpler. The manner of connecting the tool is the same, the location of connecting the tool is the same, and the code set is _nearly_ the same on every make and model of car and truck offered for sale in the USA since 1996. >> There is no reason a Service Writer can not pull codes >> from a post-'96 car or truck, and note the code on the service ticket if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > And this accomplishes what and why would the mechanic assigned > the work order want to take the chance? It would empower the consumer, and it might allow the consumer to go on his merry way in a few minutes if the code was a simple one, such as Evaporative System Malfunction -- loose gas cap. >> I have pulled codes on several cars and trucks, and if I can do it, >> anybody >> can do it. > > You're confusing "pulling codes" with diagnostics. No I'm not. >> It is easy. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I know where my appendix is, but I sure as hell ain't gonna > attempt removal myself. True, but if you knew that youir headache was caused by hitting your head on the ground, you'd take an aspirin in lieu of scheduling brain surgery. >> Information is power, and consumers should not be denied >> information. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > P0302. SES light on, P0302 stored, missfire counter for cylinder > #2 has a rolling count. All other parameters are normal/in spec. That's one where the customer would be advised to leave the car for further diagnostics. You are finding the difficult scenarios to justify leaving the car for service. I agree that there are difficult scenarios that DEMAND leaving the car for service. But, on the other hand, there are also equally simple scenarios that do not require further diagnostics. In these instances, it is safe for the operator to be on his way. >> Sure, >> there are lots of people that can't do anything more difficult than fill [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Your belief that such already exists betrays your level of > knowledge on the subject. What exists, a car that tells the consumer what is wrong? OBD II cars will tell, IF the consumer has the tools and the knowhow to understand the messages given. The entire point of OBD II is that there are people that can operate the tool(s) and do understand what the messages mean. OBD I required car owners and service technicians alike to learn the differences and nuances for every make and model of vehicle they might encounter, OBD II standardized all of this so it is not necessary to learn the differences and nuances. > >> I think there is value for a dealership to advertise, "we will scan your > >> computer for free." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I think that when Tom, Dick, and/or Harry pulls into the Service Line, the > dealership has pretty much captured the customer. So you're saying that dealerships should do this free testing as a come on to get people in to fix a problem that may not even exist. You're assuming that only people with a lit check engine light will respond to the advertising, such will not be the case. I fail to see how this becomes anything other than an opportunity for 'wallet flushing' by said dealership. > As you pointed out, MOST > if the time the service writer is not capable of diagnosing a problem, but > sometimes he is, and those times should be a free service. As is always the case, you get what you pay for. > > I've seen enough of this same scenario in the last 37 years to > > know that it's a waste and cheapens the value of the service. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > half-assed attempt at repairing a SES light? > > (clue; it isn't good) Why haven't you answered the above? > >> If the code returns, then the operator returns and repairs can be > >> affected with [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > program. In other states, the store clerk is allowed/directed to pull the > codes. That's right. California has different emissions laws that most other states. It is what it is. > Surely the store clerk hasn't got as much on the ball as a Service > Writer working for a Dealership. Surely you don't know one way or the other. The counter help at my local NAPA are ex-mechanics, one guy who left a few months ago is a degreed engineer, went to work for Oshkosh Truck. There are many people working at parts stores that used to work as technicians but because of health reasons, can no longer do so. service writers by and large tend to be order takers, clerks with no mechanical aptitude at all. There are a few that absorb "fixes" thru osmosis, i.e., eventually they recognize pattern failures and can regurgitate certain parts of the sum total of that which they've seen pass before their eyes on a service ticket AKA the mechanics findings. > Surely. And, there is no way in hell that a > consumer is likely to have more on the ball than a service writer -- some > consumers will, but most will not and any consumer can go to AutoZone and > pull codes. So, CARB is not a big player in this discussion. CARB is a big player in as much as it implements laws in the most populous state in the United States. It was you that brought up the difference in what was allowed in California, you can't bring it up and then dismiss it when it doesn't suit you. Also, as you claim that the consumer doesn't have as much on the ball as the service writer, again, what is the point of having the service writer pull codes when he's doing his write up, it isn't going to impact the repair one way or the other and it isn't going to impact the consumer one way or the other either. > >> Pulling codes should NOT be something that is limited to secrecy in a > >> distant back room. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Yes, but when it was that simple, there were literally hundreds of > combinations on how and where to connect the paper clip. There was? GM had but two and they were so similar as to not count. Ford, only one way to latch the self test pre-OBD2 since the inception of EEC-IV. Chrysler, even easier and unchanged from 1983 to 1995 and beyond in some cases. > OBD II made it even > simpler. The manner of connecting the tool is the same, the location of > connecting the tool is the same, and the code set is _nearly_ the same on > every make and model of car and truck offered for sale in the USA since > 1996. The thing you don't understand is that OBD2 is like a 5 year old that can count to ten. It is very basic, very minimal. No one seriously attempts an emissions repair solely via OBD2 protocols. Manufactures enhanced protocols are to OBD2 as Algebra is to first grade 2+2=4 > >> There is no reason a Service Writer can not pull codes > >> from a post-'96 car or truck, and note the code on the service ticket if [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > It would empower the consumer, You Already said that the consumer isn't on the ball. Any consumer can be empowered as much as they wish to be. > and it might allow the consumer to go on his > merry way in a few minutes if the code was a simple one, such as Evaporative > System Malfunction -- loose gas cap. Again, how do you propose to verify that the problem has been solved. Few if any EVAP failures are actually loose gas caps, the consumer has had eleven+ model years to practice how to tighten their gas cap and any service department that shotguns a EVAP code thru without verifying the actual cause and repair is irresponsible at minimum. > >> I have pulled codes on several cars and trucks, and if I can do it, > >> anybody [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > No I'm not. Yes you are. > >> It is easy. > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > True, but if you knew that youir headache was caused by hitting your head on > the ground, you'd take an aspirin in lieu of scheduling brain surgery. No, if I had a headache from hitting my head on the ground, I'd see a neurologist as soon as possible. Your way of thinking is no different than someone who keeps swilling Pepto-Bismol right up to the point of collapsing from cardiac arrest. > >> Information is power, and consumers should not be denied > >> information. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > That's one where the customer would be advised to leave the car for further > diagnostics. But you claim that on board diagnostics are not nearly as difficult as I make it sound. At least tell me whether you think it's likely to be an ignition problem or a fuel problem, there is enough information there to hedge the guess one way versus the other. > You are finding the difficult scenarios to justify leaving the car for > service. No, not really. > I agree that there are difficult scenarios that DEMAND leaving the > car for service. But, on the other hand, there are also equally simple > scenarios that do not require further diagnostics. Really? And those are? > In these instances, it is > safe for the operator to be on his way. Doesn't even take a code reader or scan tool of any sort to make that determination, and it's all covered in the owners manual which is precisely intended to empower the consumer. (if they even bother reading it) Ooops, that covers loose gas caps also.... > >> Sure, > >> there are lots of people that can't do anything more difficult than fill [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > What exists, a car that tells the consumer what is wrong? Beyond a tire that's low on air, hardly. > OBD II cars will > tell, IF the consumer has the tools and the knowhow to understand the > messages given. So, the consumer needs to procure those tools and the knowhow. How does a service writer fit into all that? > The entire point of OBD II is that there are people that can operate the > tool(s) and do understand what the messages mean. Are you one of them? Can you tell me what $10, $11, $21, $22, $25 means? Can you tell me how Ford determines barometric pressure in their OBD2 systems? Can you explain in what way a person would use a scan tool on a Ford product to determine which cylinder is miss firing? > OBD I required car owners > and service technicians alike to learn the differences and nuances for every > make and model of vehicle they might encounter, Those differences and nuances are still there. Common causes of EVAP codes on a Ford are typically different than a Toyota. Common causes of miss fires on a GM are typically different than the causes on a Ford. > OBD II standardized all of > this so it is not necessary to learn the differences and nuances. Counting CAN and EOBD, there are over seven different types of OBD2 interface protocols, so no joy there when claiming standardized. You've never seen a real PID list, have you? >> > The EPA and CARB will seriously frown on such methods. >> > One should know a little bit about what is mandated WRT emissions [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > That's right. California has different emissions laws that most > other states. It is what it is. But, YOU raised the notion that CARB would object to service writers pulling codes. Given the FACT that California has the strictest emission laws going, and the fact that the consumer is required to pull his own codes if he goes to an autoparts store, then it is absurd to suggest AS YOU DID that CARB would object to service writers pulling codes for people that for whatever reason do not visit the local autoparts store. >> Surely the store clerk hasn't got as much on the ball as a Service >> Writer working for a Dealership. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > isn't going to impact the repair one way or the other and it > isn't going to impact the consumer one way or the other either. It was YOU that made the implication that the consumer was stupid. I said, several times, that the service writer is capable of pulling codes at the service lane, and in some cases can safely send the customer on his way without any further service. Or, the service writer can pull the codes and explain in layman's terms that the Framis Valve is stuck wide open, or at least the code indicates the framis valve system is on the fritz and this is why the Check light is on. And, it was YOU that said CARB would not allow anybody other than the service technician to pull the codes. I have shown you that CARB would not care because CARB allows consumers to pull their own codes if they want to. >> >> Pulling codes should NOT be something that is limited to secrecy in a >> >> distant back room. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > the inception of EEC-IV. Chrysler, even easier and unchanged > from 1983 to 1995 and beyond in some cases. Sure, GM had some, Ford had others, Toyota had still more. BMW, even more. And on and on. Virtually every automaker had different codes and different ways to extract them. It was a nightmare for consumers and service providers. Consumers were at teh mercy of service providers to say, "it'll cost your first born son to pull those codes because I have to own special machines and go to specialized training seminars to learn how to operate the machines." With OBD II, anybody with a pulse can pull codes. Can they actually USE the information they obtain? Perhaps not, but obtaining the information no longer takes specialized training that justifies the expense of gathering the information. >> OBD II made it even >> simpler. The manner of connecting the tool is the same, the location of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Manufactures enhanced protocols are to OBD2 as Algebra is to > first grade 2+2=4 How in Hell do you know that I understand that, or not? >> >> There is no reason a Service Writer can not pull codes >> >> from a post-'96 car or truck, and note the code on the service ticket [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You Already said that the consumer isn't on the ball. > Any consumer can be empowered as much as they wish to be. I never said that. >> and it might allow the consumer to go on his >> merry way in a few minutes if the code was a simple one, such as [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > EVAP code thru without verifying the actual cause and repair is > irresponsible at minimum. Because they will return if they have not been resolved. A loose gas cap can manifest itself by setting off several codes from P0440 to P0456 where the diagnosis is "malfunction" "gross leak" or "small leak". Surely some of these codes can result from a cracked vacuum line, but none of them are "safety of flight" problems, and if the code is jotted down, and reappears in a few hours or a week or a month, then the vehicle can be sent to the service bay for hours and hours of extensive diagnostics. But, a vehicle that is 2 or 3 years old will seldom have a cracked vacuum hose anymore, and can easily be set on the back burner of important things in life. >> >> I have pulled codes on several cars and trucks, and if I can do it, >> >> anybody [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yes you are. At most, I'm confusing you with somebody that understands that some things on a car are transient, or are caused by very simple actions that do not require hundreds of dollars in service costs or warranty time. Absolutely there are serious problems that demand the attention of a service techincian with a multi-thousand dollars diagnostic machine, and those problems should be adequately addressed. But, there are also simple problems that need no further service. > >> > The EPA and CARB will seriously frown on such methods. > >> > One should know a little bit about what is mandated WRT emissions [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > would object to service writers pulling codes for people that for whatever > reason do not visit the local autoparts store. The reason you're having trouble with this is because I never said it to begin with. > > CARB is a big player in as much as it implements laws in the most > > populous state in the United States. It was you that brought up [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It was YOU that made the implication that the consumer was stupid. No I didn't. > I said, several times, that the service writer is capable of pulling codes at the > service lane, and in some cases can safely send the customer on his way > without any further service. You can say all sorts of things, but that doesn't make any of it true. You still haven't given any examples of what types of malfunctions can be blown off by a service writer. > Or, the service writer can pull the codes and > explain in layman's terms that the Framis Valve is stuck wide open, or at > least the code indicates the framis valve system is on the fritz and this is > why the Check light is on. Or the service writer can simply shut his trap and tell the customer that he'll have one of his trained technicians thoroughly check out the reason for the SES light, which is what they're paid to do. > And, it was YOU that said CARB would not allow anybody other than the > service technician to pull the codes. I didn't say that either. > I have shown you that CARB would not > care because CARB allows consumers to pull their own codes if they want to. CARB can not regulate what service procedures a vehicle owner performs on his own car or truck. I can cut my own hair and the state can't say or do jack about it, if I engage in it as an enterprise, I then need to comply with the applicable laws that govern such trades. > > There was? GM had but two and they were so similar as to not > > count. Ford, only one way to latch the self test pre-OBD2 since > > the inception of EEC-IV. Chrysler, even easier and unchanged > > from 1983 to 1995 and beyond in some cases. > > Sure, GM had some, Ford had others, Toyota had still more. BMW, even more. It's still like that. > And on and on. Virtually every automaker had different codes and different > ways to extract them. It's still like that. > It was a nightmare for consumers and service > providers. Really? In the last 29 years, I've done it for a living for 2 Chrysler-Plymouth dealers, one Ford dealer, one Chevrolet dealer, three independent shops, one major metropolitan natural gas utility, one major tool and equipment supplier ranging across 5 states, it really wasn't/isn't that big of a deal to switch brands. > Consumers were at teh mercy of service providers to say, "it'll > cost your first born son to pull those codes because I have to own special > machines and go to specialized training seminars to learn how to operate the > machines." With OBD II, anybody with a pulse can pull codes. This makes no sense. Pre OBD2, codes could be pulled with a simple jumper, post OBD2, a specialized tool is needed, and the more in depth the diagnostics become, the more specialized the equipment becomes. From 1981 thru the mid 90s, if someone needed to update the programming in a GM car, all they needed to do was a simple PROM replacement, now, a programming change requires a J2534 compatible programming tool, an internet link and a $ub$cription to that manufacturers technical information service. My first scan tool cost $400.00 and worked on all three domestics the last one I bought cost over $4000.00 and only works on GM. Maybe in your simple little world of limited understanding of automotive diagnostics you can get by with a box with a couple of blinking lights, but that isn't reality. > Can they > actually USE the information they obtain? Perhaps not, but obtaining the > information no longer takes specialized training that justifies the expense > of gathering the information. Nope, they're free to go down to their local FLAPS or Harbor Freight and buy a $50 idiot box. That still doesn't mean that repair shops or dealership service departments should be giving the service away for free. > >> OBD II made it even > >> simpler. The manner of connecting the tool is the same, the location of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > How in Hell do you know that I understand that, or not? Because most of what you say here has no base in reality. Because you keep saying OBD2, OBD2, OBD2... OBD2 is an emissions standard, it is not a diagnostic scheme. OBD2 is a mandate that certain emissions criteria that were never monitored before are now monitored and when a failure occurs, a warning light is illuminated. OBD2 is something that mechanics fix but no mechanic (in his right mind) relies on OBD2 to perform the fix. > > You Already said that the consumer isn't on the ball. > > Any consumer can be empowered as much as they wish to be. > > I never said that. Yes you did. In article <dOCdnYi1A-B5RT_YnZ2dnUVZ_oqmnZ2d@ez2.net>, "And, there is no way in hell that a consumer is likely to have more on the ball than a service writer --" > > Again, how do you propose to verify that the problem has been > > solved. Few if any EVAP failures are actually loose gas caps, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Because they will return if they have not been resolved. The industry term for that is "ping-ponging" and even at the lowly state level, it is very much frowned upon. > A loose gas cap can > manifest itself by setting off several codes from P0440 to P0456 where the > diagnosis is "malfunction" "gross leak" or "small leak". Uh, no. Eight of those codes (P0441, P0443, P0444, P0445, P0446, P0447, P0448, P0449)have nothing to do with a loose gas cap at all. Just four have any relevance to a loose gas cap (P0440, P0442, P0455, P0456) And since the P0440 is often used as a catch all, it doesn't really qualify the type of EVAP problem anyway, and none of them ~qualify~ a loose gas cap no matter what you want to believe. It would have been more appropriate had you said 'there are three codes that -might- be attributed to a loose gas cap.' > Surely some of > these codes can result from a cracked vacuum line, but none of them are > "safety of flight" problems, No, they are emissions failures, plain and simple. The EPA only has jurisdiction over (WRT this discussion) vehicle emissions (HC, CO, NOx), it has no jurisdiction over "safety of flight." > and if the code is jotted down, and reappears > in a few hours or a week or a month, then the vehicle can be sent to the > service bay for hours and hours of extensive diagnostics. Ping-ponging again. And what happens if the vehicle goes out of warranty in the weeks or month after a correct diagnosis and repair was blown off by the service writer? Now the customer has to argue his case that it should have/would have been a covered repair. > But, a vehicle > that is 2 or 3 years old will seldom have a cracked vacuum hose anymore, and > can easily be set on the back burner of important things in life. So, the 2003 Liberty with a cracked vapor hose last week was a figment, the 2003 Town and Country with a cracked canister last week was a figment, the 2002 Escort with a blocked vent solenoid last week was a figment. All three could have been blown off as a loose gas cap, but had I done that, all I'd have done was inconvenienced the customers. Oh, last time I checked, breathing was one of the "important things in life." > > Yes you are. > > At most, I'm confusing you with somebody that understands that some things > on a car are transient, or are caused by very simple actions that do not > require hundreds of dollars in service costs or warranty time. Where can I get one of those crystal balls that tell which faults that set a SES light are caused by "simple actions?" > Absolutely there are serious problems that demand the attention of a service > techincian with a multi-thousand dollars diagnostic machine, and those > problems should be adequately addressed. But, there are also simple problems > that need no further service. Sounds like black tape over the SES to me. > Sounds like black tape over the SES to me. Hey, isn't that what Click & Clack recommend? :-)  SignatureDavid M (dmacchiarolo) http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled T/S 53 sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 31 days 6:12 I'm not going to make my point any further on this. I have 5 cars, where the newest is 5 years old, the oldest is more than 20. Pulling codes is not rocket science, and the vast majority of service that can be done at home by the average joe (me, for example) can be diagnosed and repaired through the OBD codes. I can't help but think that if a dealership told its New Car Buyers that they could stop by and get the codes downloaded free of charge, they would develop a much happier service clientele. Some service codes will result in a service call on the vehicle, some service codes will result in a customer being sent on his way. Nobody loses, the consumer gains time by not having to deal with his car being in the shop. The shop gains time by not having a car that is in for diagnostics where there is essentially nothing wrong. Perhaps, the customer will leave with a diary that says, "<date>, <code>, watch for repeat ..." Sometimes, a valuable part of the diagnostic process is TIME, and a repeat that only time can give. I've seen cars give multiple codes, all somewhat related, but most a byproduct of the main problem. Resetting the codes after jotting them down provided a valuable benchmark when the Check light came back on a week later. I think that it is a valuable service to pull codes at the Service Writer instead of in the back of the shop. I also think the vast majority of car owners would enjoy getting a free service from the car dealer, and a service that COSTS NOTHING for the dealer to provide. The good will generated by the free service would more than offset any loss. (In case it escapes you, if good will offsets the loss, then there is by definition no loss.) > I'm not going to make my point any further on this. > > I have 5 cars, where the newest is 5 years old, the oldest is more than 20. > Pulling codes is not rocket science, and the vast majority of service that > can be done at home by the average joe (me, for example) can be diagnosed > and repaired through the OBD codes. I gave you the codes for a 1998 Chevy in a previous post, you begged off. > I can't help but think that if a dealership told its New Car Buyers that > they could stop by and get the codes downloaded free of charge, they would > develop a much happier service clientele. I can't think of a single instance in all the dealerships I've worked at where that wasn't the case. All covered by the manufacturers warranty that accompanied a new car. Then again, the way you propose doing it is telling the customer that the new car he just bought is a piece of crap, the SES light is going to come on, but don't worry,,, we'll pull the trouble codes for free. You've really thought this out, haven't you... > Some service codes will result in > a service call on the vehicle, some service codes will result in a customer > being sent on his way. Something like; "they all do that, ignore it?" > Nobody loses, the consumer gains time by not having > to deal with his car being in the shop. The shop gains time by not having a > car that is in for diagnostics where there is essentially nothing wrong. So, the goal of a successful service department is an empty shop? > Perhaps, the customer will leave with a diary that says, "<date>, <code>, > watch for repeat ..." All useless if the car goes out of warranty in the mean time. > Sometimes, a valuable part of the diagnostic process is TIME, and a repeat > that only time can give. I've seen cars give multiple codes, all somewhat > related, but most a byproduct of the main problem. Resetting the codes after > jotting them down provided a valuable benchmark when the Check light came > back on a week later. All this tells me is that you couldn't figure the problem out the first time. > I think that it is a valuable service to pull codes at the Service Writer > instead of in the back of the shop. Forcing the dealership to purchase another scan tool is going to reduce costs, reduce the overhead? And for a "free" service to boot? Yikes! > I also think the vast majority of car > owners would enjoy getting a free service from the car dealer, and a service > that COSTS NOTHING for the dealer to provide. I don't know how you can claim that it would "cost nothing." Scan tools cost thousands of dollars, that's hardly "nothing." How about a vehicle under warranty, should the OEM receive that same labor operation for free? > The good will generated by the > free service would more than offset any loss. The free service cheapens the value and opens the door for the customer expecting other things/everything for free. You want free, try the Red Cross. > (In case it escapes you, if > good will offsets the loss, then there is by definition no loss.) What doesn't escape me is that you have an entitlement mentality and absolutely no concept of owners responsibility. When I go to lunch tomorrow, I'm going to tell the waitress to give me my food for free because of all the goodwill I'm going to spread... ... But why just limit it to me, they can give free food to all 40-50 people in the restaurant and get 50 times the goodwill. > Pulling codes should NOT be something that is limited to secrecy in a > distant back room. There is no reason a Service Writer can not pull codes [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > gas tank, but there are plenty of people that can fix a car is the car tells > them what is wrong. That's the part you don't get, It doesn't tell you what is wrong, it tells you what sensor or device is reading out of norm and points you at a general area that needs looking at.. You go to AZ they scan for you, and its gee you need a new temp sensor, only it isn't the temp sensor its the thermostat stuck open. Or you got a bad O2 sensor, only the issue is the cat is goosed and that's why the rear one is reading wrong, or number 2 injector is leaking and that's why the right bank O2 is reading wrong. You got some just over minimum wage goof ball with just enough knowledge to be damned dangerous dispensing repair advice 80% of the time. Maybe 10% of the time you get some guy retired from the repair industry wanting a little poker money working part time, or cant work in a shop any more because of health issues. Hell the store managers cant even hire and fire. And a service writer is a sales person, not a repair person 75% of the time. Whitelightning > I have a 2004 f150xlt with 5.4l eng. 9,000 miles, and its still under > warantee....The fail safe lite comes on, and goes out when I restart the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > claim that 90% of the time its the gas cap....I would appreciate any input > on this...Thanks in advance. If there is a valid error code being generated light will come back on. Someone here may correct me on this but I think some codes may reset if the error condition is not present after a number of run cycles. In any case it is not a good idea to pull the battery terminal to reset erase the error codes to make the light go out. The light isn't the problem, it is indicating the problem. It came on for a reason and you really do want to know why. Pulling the battery terminal also resets the onboard computer which stores information it gathers to to determine fuel settings, timing etc. for optimal engine performance. It takes a while to gather this information again during which time your engine may not be running at it's best. There is probably nothing you can do unless the light comes back on but in the mean time you should keep your eye out for a good deal on an OBDII code scanner. It's worth having one around. Stephen N. My "service engine soon light" was staying on in my 03 Lightning.... So I took it back to the dealer. They found that my thermostat was stuck open. A long time lurker, first time poster > My "service engine soon light" was staying on in my 03 Lightning.... So > I took it back to the dealer. They found that my thermostat was stuck > open. > > A long time lurker, first time poster Your truck would have been happy to tell you this, IF you knew how to ask it.. >> My "service engine soon light" was staying on in my 03 Lightning.... So >> I took it back to the dealer. They found that my thermostat was stuck [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Your truck would have been happy to tell you this, IF you knew how to ask > it.. Jeff, I have to say you have told us all you have to about your ability to READ codes on an OBDII Vehicle. They could have found a code for "Temp sensor out of range low", but this code can be for a bad sensor, or a bad thermostat, or heaven forbid that it have an open in the wire somewhere, or a short to ground??? See yeah we can look at codes and say ok we need to go tot he cooling system, but where in the cooling system are you going to start? That is where you need to LEARN to extrapilate information from what you are seeing, not just get a damn code.. If it were that easy, mechanics like me would be out of business quick, but its not... LOL Ford Tech > Jeff, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ford Tech Every, that's E-V-E-R-Y, time I have pulled codes on an OBD II vehicle, I was able to fix the right part on the first try. I currently drive an OBD I vintage Bronco, and I accurately diagnosed and repaired two different problems (months apart and completely unrelated systems), also on the first try. Please do not pretend that this sh.t is difficult. Sure, sometimes it is hard. But, usually it is easy. The single most common fault code on the newsgroups that I goof around on is a result of a gas cap error. Yeah, I reckon so.......But it was a free fix and I was just happy to get my hot rod Ford pickup truck back. |
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