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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / January 2007

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4WD really?

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russschell@gmail.com - 11 Jan 2007 19:44 GMT
I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
Seems that the right rear tire just continued to spin in the mud. Front
wheels did their work but it seemed like there was no power to the left
rear wheel.

Is this really 4WD or 3WD... or is something not working right? I know
in my 98 Cherokee all the wheels churn in snow or mud.

Thanks.
My Name Is Nobody - 11 Jan 2007 20:17 GMT
>I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
> it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks.

You have a PEG-Leg 4X4.  A classic example of a 4X4 with an opened rear (and
front too) axel this means that only the tire/axel with the least
resistance/traction on each end will have power...

You actually have a 2 wheel drive, whichever tire is the least useful on
each axel will get your power.  read my posts about getting stuck over a
ditch with a peg-leg (so called 4X4) in the Sport Trac Towing/Landing boat
from Ramp thread.
russschell@gmail.com - 11 Jan 2007 21:13 GMT
Thanks much.  So, it's  not broken but really a rather poor/compromised
design then?

> >I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
> > it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> ditch with a peg-leg (so called 4X4) in the Sport Trac Towing/Landing boat
> from Ramp thread.
Whitelightning - 12 Jan 2007 00:23 GMT
> Thanks much.  So, it's  not broken but really a rather poor/compromised
> design then?

No the result of a cheapskate who bought it in 87.

Whitelightning
SnoMan - 11 Jan 2007 22:09 GMT
>>I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
>> it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>front too) axel this means that only the tire/axel with the least
>resistance/traction on each end will have power...

As usual the blind leading the blind. All tires recieve the same
amount of axle torque, no more or less because a open diferentail can
do nothing else

>You actually have a 2 wheel drive, whichever tire is the least useful on
>each axel will get your power.  read my posts about getting stuck over a
>ditch with a peg-leg (so called 4X4) in the Sport Trac Towing/Landing boat
>from Ramp thread.

If Nobody was anybody with some real knowledge he would not say this
but he hides his ID and spreads crap. Again ALL wheel recieve equal
torque, no more or less. A Posi can send more torque to one wheel than
other. I have plowed snow for well over 20 year now and mostly with
open diffs by choice because of better directional control (posi loves
to fishtail on ice) and I have never been stuck for the lack of it and
I have been in some nasty places in snow The few times I was hung up
POSI would not have gotten me out because all thw wheels where
spinning anyway.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
My Name Is Nobody - 11 Jan 2007 22:52 GMT
Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block)
open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even
traction to both axels?  When you stomp on it you only get one big long
single black mark, never two.  Because the open differential is never going
to power both axels when you start applying torque and spinning...

Straddle an open ditch at an angle with an open differential peg-leg 4X4 and
see why it is inferior to a limited slip, regardless of gear ratio, it will
sit with one tire front and rear hanging over the ditch doing nothing, with
no power to them, while the tires hanging (resistance free) in the air over
the ditch get all or the power "torque", You go nowhere.

Get back to us when your measly little brain thaws out, you simple
bastard...

>>>I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
>>> it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
Jeff Strickland - 11 Jan 2007 23:48 GMT
> Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block)
> open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even
> traction to both axels?

One more time, and maybe it will sink in this time.

The open diff delivers equal torque to both tires on the same axle. Period.

When this changes, it's because one tire or the other LOSES traction, at
which point it gets all of the available power. The actuallity is that the
tire that retains traction still gets some power, this is why the high HP
car will move forward as the spinning tire spews smoke and rubber. But, for
all practical purposes, there is not enough power delivered to the tire with
traction to get a stuck vehicle moving, and it is a reasonable statement
that the traction challenged tire gets all of the available power.

We can debate the actual power distribution vis a vis the spinning tire and
the tire that is on solid ground, but it biols down to the fact that for all
of the power applied, the vehicle is not going anywhere.

When you stomp on it you only get one big long
> single black mark, never two.  Because the open differential is never
> going to power both axels when you start applying torque and spinning...

While the result is true, the explanation is flawed. Torque and power are
equal until one tire loses its footing (traction).

> Straddle an open ditch at an angle with an open differential peg-leg 4X4
> and see why it is inferior to a limited slip, regardless of gear ratio, it
> will sit with one tire front and rear hanging over the ditch doing
> nothing, with no power to them, while the tires hanging (resistance free)
> in the air over the ditch get all or the power "torque", You go nowhere.

This is true. The reasons are a bit different than your 'Vette analogy, but
it is true.
My Name Is Nobody - 12 Jan 2007 00:46 GMT
>> Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block)
>> open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even
>> traction to both axels?
>
> One more time, and maybe it will sink in this time.

Maybe what will sink in?

> The open diff delivers equal torque to both tires on the same axle.
> Period.

Not so, only in some situations (not all) when traction is equal.  PERIOD!
The open differential is never going to power both axels when you start
applying torque and spinning...

> When this changes, it's because one tire or the other LOSES traction, at
> which point it gets all of the available power. The actuallity is that the
> tire that retains traction still gets some power, this is why the high HP
> car will move forward as the spinning tire spews smoke and rubber.

If that were actually true, then a car with a locking rear end would simply
spin both tires and spew smoke and rubber, never moving forward.
Anyone who has actually driven a high horsepower/torque (big block) car with
a locking rear differential can attest, that is not true, hence the long
double black marks caused by the tires spinning, spewing smoke and rubber,
and still getting some traction, all at the same time.

In this case as in the open differential case, the cars forward movement is
being done by the spinning tire(s)...

The ditch example (that you have acknowledged is true) PROVES my position
and directly contradicts your assertion about the movement coming from the
non-low-powered axel moving the vehicle.

> But, for all practical purposes, there is not enough power delivered to
> the tire with traction to get a stuck vehicle moving, and it is a
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> While the result is true, the explanation is flawed. Torque and power are
> equal until one tire loses its footing (traction).

Flawed?  As I explained above, the open differential is never going to power
both axels when you start applying torque and spinning...

When your torque exceeds your traction the open differentials so called
"equal torque delivery" ends.  PERIOD!
On flat paved roads an open differential gets the job done 98% of the time,
but if you are every "traction challenged", you will find that an open
differential's "equal torque delivery" only lasts until you really need it.

>> Straddle an open ditch at an angle with an open differential peg-leg 4X4
>> and see why it is inferior to a limited slip, regardless of gear ratio,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> This is true. The reasons are a bit different than your 'Vette analogy,
> but it is true.
Jeff Strickland - 12 Jan 2007 19:41 GMT
>>> Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big
>>> block) open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> If that were actually true, then a car with a locking rear end would
> simply spin both tires and spew smoke and rubber, never moving forward.

Are you stupid, or justj putting on a show?

A vehicle with a locking diff will turn both tires at the same speed (or all
four tires if a 4WD, and both axles have a locker installed and working) no
matter what the state of the traction is.

> Anyone who has actually driven a high horsepower/torque (big block) car
> with a locking rear differential can attest, that is not true, hence the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> In this case as in the open differential case, the cars forward movement
> is being done by the spinning tire(s)...

Technically, no. Technically, the tire that is spinning is spinning
uselessly. Yes, there is some residual friction that is moving the car
forward, but if the car was in a compromised condition, the tire could spin
all day long and the car would not be going anywhere. This means that the
tire that HAS traction, and is still getting a small amount of the engine
power is the tire that is physically moving the car forward.

> The ditch example (that you have acknowledged is true) PROVES my position
> and directly contradicts your assertion about the movement coming from the
> non-low-powered axel moving the vehicle.

Not so. What I said was that the power applied to the tire that has traction
is not enough to move the vehicle, making my earlier statement that the
spinning tire gets all of the engine's power virtually correct. (The
statement is not entirely correct because a small amount of power is
directed to the tire with traction.)

>> But, for all practical purposes, there is not enough power delivered to
>> the tire with traction to get a stuck vehicle moving, and it is a
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Flawed?  As I explained above, the open differential is never going to
> power both axels when you start applying torque and spinning...

That's not what you said.

What you did say was that power is never applied equally. The fact is, power
is applied equally UNTIL one tire breaks traction, then thatj tire gets all
of the available tire -- with the caveat I described earlier, several times.

> When your torque exceeds your traction the open differentials so called
> "equal torque delivery" ends.  PERIOD!

That much is true. And, it's what I've been saying all along, and what
others have said, and what you seem to NOT have been saying until now.

> On flat paved roads an open differential gets the job done 98% of the
> time, but if you are every "traction challenged", you will find that an
> open differential's "equal torque delivery" only lasts until you really
> need it.

If by "you really need it" you mean that one tire spins uselessly and you
can't get going as a result, then yes, that is true.
My Name Is Nobody - 12 Jan 2007 21:48 GMT
>>>> Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big
>>>> block) open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> the tire that HAS traction, and is still getting a small amount of the
> engine power is the tire that is physically moving the car forward.

Are you stupid, or just putting on a show?

If that were actually true, then a car with a locking rear end would simply
spin both tires and spew smoke and rubber, never moving forward.  But we all
know that the spinning tire(s) can and do move the car in both situations...
If the "under-powered" tire could move the car in this situation, (and the
spinning tire could not) then in the ditch scenario the "under-powered" tire
could move the vehicle as well, we all know that the "under-powered" tire
will never move the car in the ditch straddle scenario......

>> The ditch example (that you have acknowledged is true) PROVES my position
>> and directly contradicts your assertion about the movement coming from
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> That's not what you said.

Are you stupid, or just putting on a show?
GO back and read again!
In my post (Thursday, January 11, 2007 2:52 PM) I said:
"Because the open differential is never going
to power both axels when you start applying torque and spinning..."

> What you did say was that power is never applied equally. The fact is,
> power is applied equally UNTIL one tire breaks traction, then thatj tire
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> That much is true. And, it's what I've been saying all along, and what
> others have said, and what you seem to NOT have been saying until now.

Are you stupid, or just putting on a show?
GO back and read again!
In my post (Thursday, January 11, 2007 2:52 PM) I said:
"Because the open differential is never going
to power both axels when you start applying torque and spinning..."

>> On flat paved roads an open differential gets the job done 98% of the
>> time, but if you are every "traction challenged", you will find that an
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> If by "you really need it" you mean that one tire spins uselessly and you
> can't get going as a result, then yes, that is true.

And exactly what I have been saying from the start...
nobody > - 20 Jan 2007 03:20 GMT
>> Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big
>> block) open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The open diff delivers equal torque to both tires on the same axle. Period.

I'm not recommending this, but I did it as a teenager who didn't know
better!

I had a car jacked up on stands, and put it in gear just for grins. It
was only first gear and at an idle, but there's still an appreciable
amount of torque *on the driveshaft*. I grabbed one tire and stopped it
cold. Once stopped there was little if no torque against my hands. If
there was equal torque to both sides, I would have had the sh.t beat out
of me if my hands didn't slip first. They didn't.
Jeff Strickland - 20 Jan 2007 18:43 GMT
>>> Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big
>>> block) open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> torque to both sides, I would have had the sh.t beat out of me if my hands
> didn't slip first. They didn't.

You didn't read the entire point. Torque is applied evenly until one tire
breaks loose, then all of the torque is applied to that tire. You just
proved the point, thanks.

You picked up on half of my statement and pointed out the precise variance
that I described in the second half.
Joe - 22 Jan 2007 00:42 GMT
> You didn't read the entire point. Torque is applied evenly until one tire
> breaks loose, then all of the torque is applied to that tire. You just
> proved the point, thanks.

Here's some advice.  Don't ever discuss horsepower and torque on USENET.
Most people don't really understand anything about it, and all they'll do is
argue and cause confusion.  Very few car enthusiasts can correctly explain
differential gears, gear ratio math, or anything about limited slip.  This
is a good example of that truth.

Here's why the statement above is false.  Ordinary differential gears apply
torque evently to both sides. They have to.  They're not capable of doing
anything else. They can't make decisions, nor can they change mathematically
what they are doing.  When a tire breaks loose, you will see the SPEED going
to that tire. In this case, the poster didn't know the difference between
speed and torque.  Even though speed is a very simple concept, once you
bring a car axle onto the scene, nobody can grasp it.

Most people just can't handle the concept of torque, so I say just let it
lie.  I promise I won't read any replies to this, so be sure and make them
really long.
Steve Barker - 22 Jan 2007 01:36 GMT
Well what it all boils down to is the wheel with the least amount of
traction will spin first if it's not a posi or LS.  To try and say the
torque is applied this way and that way is just rhetoric.

I'm with you, most people, including a good number of technicians don't
understand the tork and differential thing.  Or try to make it something
it's not.
Signature

Steve Barker

>> You didn't read the entire point. Torque is applied evenly until one tire
>> breaks loose, then all of the torque is applied to that tire. You just
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> lie.  I promise I won't read any replies to this, so be sure and make them
> really long.
News Skimmer - 22 Jan 2007 04:13 GMT
I haven't put a lot of thought into this one because I've never really
cared. But here are my thoughts:

The gearbox itself is speed reducer therefore a torque increaser.

Power in = power out less parasitic losses.

The differential is a torque splitter. The sum of the two tires' moments
(torques) must sum to the input torque multiplied by the gear ratio.

The MAX torque on any drive tire is tricky. The traction force is the
reaction
to the moment and equal to the weight on the wheel multiplied by the
friction coefficient (one for static - not slipping, lower for sliding
friction - burnin' rubber). The torque is the friction force multiplied by
the tire radius.

Power = torque x rotating speed (note...no spinning, no power) (if you
"build it on the brakes" the power is eaten up in the transmission...not the
gear box or tires)

For an open diff, the sum of the tire rotating speeds (two) equals two times
the input speed decreased by the gear ratio. So, if one tire is not
rotating, the other is rotating twice the speed it should if they were both
turning the correct speed. e.g. if one not turning and the other is, if the
speedo shows 20 mph, the one spinning is 40mph.

Clutches and slipping in the differential is a little tricky...but the
features still comply with the laws of physics.

for the vehicle, the sum of the forces = mass*acceleration

skimmer

>> You didn't read the entire point. Torque is applied evenly until one tire
>> breaks loose, then all of the torque is applied to that tire. You just
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> lie.  I promise I won't read any replies to this, so be sure and make them
> really long.
Steve Barker - 12 Jan 2007 02:07 GMT
YEAH, What nobody said!

Signature

Steve Barker

snow blower..... damn that's funny!   LMAO!!

> Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block)
> open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Get back to us when your measly little brain thaws out, you simple
> bastard...
Mark Jones - 12 Jan 2007 04:07 GMT
> Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big
> block) open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Get back to us when your measly little brain thaws out, you simple
> bastard...

I have him filtered because he is such an idiot. It is rare
to see one person post so much information that is pure
nonsense.
SnoMan - 12 Jan 2007 12:29 GMT
>Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block)
>open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even
>traction to both axels?  When you stomp on it you only get one big long
>single black mark, never two.  Because the open differential is never going
>to power both axels when you start applying torque and spinning...

I used to drag race can got into 10 sec class many years ago. We used
spools then not Posi's becaust they did not cut it. Also axle ratio
play a big factor in traction on launch because the taller the axle
ratio, the more the weight/traction shift between the rear tires on
acceleration. It is acttuall easier to do a burn out with a 3.08 than
a 4.56 and harder to get a got launch with a taller axle because of
the traction shift. The reason that car ALWAYS fish tail to left on a
hard launch is because of torque weight shift  on rear wheels (more
weight on left rear and less on right rear) which cause side with more
traction to pull rear end to the left. Intheory if you had a deep
enough rear axle and suspension setup you would not even need a posi
on a hard launch if on a good tractive surface. I new a low buck racer
in 70's that understood this problem as well and he did not have the
money for a posi but he did understand why it did what it did. His
solution was to use air shock with different air pressure in rear and
he found  (which you would) that if he got press set correctly (loaded
RR heavier than LR) that it would alwasy launch with both tires
spining with a open diff. No surprize to me but I am sure the whole
concept escapes you with your lack of understanding of the physics
involved.

>Straddle an open ditch at an angle with an open differential peg-leg 4X4 and
>see why it is inferior to a limited slip, regardless of gear ratio, it will
>sit with one tire front and rear hanging over the ditch doing nothing, with
>no power to them, while the tires hanging (resistance free) in the air over
>the ditch get all or the power "torque", You go nowhere.

First of all you do not get yourslef in the situation. Second, lockers
or some LSD's do not play well at all in front drive axles because of
two reasons. First Ujoints are not constant velocity when they are
flex (this likely escapes you too) and the further they are flexed or
bent the more they vary speed accross the joint  (speeding up and
slowing donw in two complete cycles per second) When a locker is used
it can cause a big torque bind and whipping of wheel unless you are on
a very slick surface. Next, when you turn the front wheel have
diffenet rolling radiuses and a locker would cause front end to bind
up a lot in a turn on a tractive surface and guiding problems on a
slick one. (this is also the reason that whole truck feels tight in a
tiurn on a hard surface in 4x4 because there is speed difference
netween all axle and wheel invovled and it binds up in drive line
unless s slick surface can relieve it. Years ago even detriot
recognized this and had some full time 4x4 system with a differentail
between front and rear but this was more complex and costly to do
(Jeep even had a selectable 2wd, full time 4wd  and conventail 4wd in
on Tcase design for a while) But all the pphysics of how and why rhing
work escapes you because you like to flap your gums and feel like a
big person which we know you are not.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
My Name Is Nobody - 12 Jan 2007 17:39 GMT
Hey Sno Blower, I think you missed your meds...

Next time you want to spew out some long winded rant to refute something I
have said, why don't you actually try refuting what I said, rather than
spewing a bunch of loosely related personal experiences disguised as
facts...

Ya, ya, You got in the 10's with your old Chebbie with a single cylinder
2-stroke Briggs & Stratton and an open differential, miss-matched air shocks
and really deep gears.  Come on Sno Blower, I sure you could add some more
stupid sh.t to that...

Spools?  Are you friggin kidding me?   Why don't you start comparing to
bicycles or bulldozers now?

Your first and second points (in your final paragraph) have nothing to do
with peg-leg 4X4's and how they work or compare to a limited slip REAR
end...   Care to try it again?

Speaking of  flapping your gums Sno Blower, consider engaging your brain
FIRST...   Have you got a direct rebuttal to anything I have said?  Try
catching up on your meds, it couldn't get any worse.  Sheesh!

>>Hey Sno Blower, Have you ever driven a high horsepower/torque (big block)
>>open differential car on a nice newly asphalted road, with perfect even
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
David M - 13 Jan 2007 04:12 GMT
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 12:29:53 +0000, Snowblower rearranged some electrons
to form:

> I used to drag race can

Maybe too many cans of Pabst Blue Ribbon.

Signature

David M  (dmacchiarolo)
http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled
T/S 53
sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14  has been up 1 day 18:02

Matt Macchiarolo - 11 Jan 2007 23:33 GMT
Sno you are correct in this instance in regards to torque (even a stopped
clock is right twice a day)  but if you had read Nobody's post, he didn't
mention TORQUE, he said "TRACTION." The diff transmits the same amount of
torque to both wheels, but if one wheel has no traction, it will slip with a
small amount of torque, not enough to get the high-traction wheel moving.

>>>I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
>>> it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
David M - 13 Jan 2007 04:04 GMT
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:33:52 -0500, the world came to an end when
Matt rearranged some electrons to form:

> Sno you are correct in this instance

Signature

David M  (dmacchiarolo)
http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled
T/S 53
sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14  has been up 1 day 17:57

Ford Tech - 13 Jan 2007 04:57 GMT
> As usual the blind leading the blind. All tires recieve the same
> amount of axle torque, no more or less because a open diferentail can
> do nothing else

Ok I have to step in here. Both axles WILL recieve the same amount of torque
so long as BOTH wheels have traction. The moment one looses traction, the
one without traction will then recieve most, if not all, of the torque. It's
just like a planetary gear set. The axle with traction is the held member
(lets say sun gear), and the spider gears are the carrier-n-pinions (input
in this scenario), and the spinning axle is the output (call it the ring
gear). Only difference in this scenario is there is no reduction in speed or
torque through the differential. The differential does NOT increase or
decrease torque, that is all up to the ring and pinion gear. The ONLY thing
the differential does do is allow two wheels on the same axle to turn at
different speeds around a corner. The differential WILL NOT distribute
torque evenly unless both wheels have EQUAL traction. I tell ya what. Walk
up to a truck (with an open diff) on a lift while the wheels are spinning
(slowly), and grab one wheel. If you notice the other wheel will continue to
spin, and you will feel little (if any) resistance to your hands holding
that one wheel. (I know I tried it). Now if you have someone grab the other
wheel, BOOM instant traction and they both turn, cause there is NO WHERE for
the torque to go, but the weakest of the two people will let go first and
then that wheel will start spinning. Same instance here. The only advantage
of a LIMITED slip differential is that it requires more torque to break away
that one wheel.

> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com
TheHack - 13 Jan 2007 18:25 GMT
>> As usual the blind leading the blind. All tires recieve the same
>> amount of axle torque, no more or less because a open diferentail can
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>> -----------------
>> TheSnoMan.com

What do you think of Torsen differential offered on
the Ranger FX4/Level 2 ? I have a 2wd Ranger now with a limited slip and
may buy a 4wd Ranger as my next truck.
Ford Tech - 13 Jan 2007 18:53 GMT
>>> As usual the blind leading the blind. All tires recieve the same
>>> amount of axle torque, no more or less because a open diferentail can
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> the Ranger FX4/Level 2 ? I have a 2wd Ranger now with a limited slip and
> may buy a 4wd Ranger as my next truck.

From what I have heard, those a pretty good differential. They use the smart
locking differetial design. Basically what happens is they stay locked
unless both wheels have traction and one of going faster than the other,
then it will unlock.

Ford Tech
Mike H - 19 Jan 2007 18:09 GMT
...
> but he hides his ID and spreads crap. Again ALL wheel recieve equal
> torque, no more or less. A Posi can send more torque to one wheel than
> other. I have plowed snow for well over 20 year now and mostly with
...

As if the topic needs any additional points, I still find a need to
post.  I suppose it's a personality defect.

If we are going to get specific, one point for people to understand is
that most 4wd systems are engineered specifically so that not all
wheels receive equal torque.  Typically there is a bias engineered into
the drive train that causes more power to be sent to the rear of the
vehicle than the front.  It does depend on the suspension balance of
the vehicle though, as manufacturers usually try to cause a bias that
creates an underdrive scenario (rather than overdrive) at the limits of
steering control.  Power application plays a roll in this.

There are a few different 4WD designs common in vehicles and trucks and
usually when you discuss such systems you can't discount the method of
sending power to both ends of the vehicle, namely the transfer case.

There are generally two types of transfer cases.  One type is more
common and is made up of gears and shafts.  Another type uses a
synthetic material surrounding steel plates in a case.  Considered a
viscous transfer case.  A viscous transfercase is self locking, what
this means is that as the difference in speed increases from front to
back, the silicone fluid tries harder and harder to drag the slow end
along.  Thus transferring up to the maximum engineered torque to the
end that isn't slipping.  The significant attribute of a viscous
transfer case is that it allows for some difference in rotation speed
between the front and the rear.  Thus tire scrub and binding don't
occur.  These transfer cases rarely have a low range. (I'm unaware of
any that do)

Mechanical transfer cases come in three flavors.  Those that are for
Part-Time use, those that are for Full-Time use and those that are for
Anytime Use.  Since steel gears are involved in connecting the front of
the vehicle to the rear, if these connections are made directly, and
you go around a corner, you'll have the front of the vehicle turning
the wheels faster than the rear.  Since these are connected directly
together by the gears, these gears fight letting the two ends spin at
different rates.  This is what happens in a Part-Time transfercase.
These transfercases are Part Time as they should only be used in
slippery situations.  The slippery situation allows the transfercase to
force one end of the vehicle to catch up (by slipping a tire) this
preventing damage to the gears from binding.  A Part Time transfercase
(or a transfercase with a part time option) is putting the max engine
power it's designed for to the front and rear, regardless of which end
is slipping.

A Full-Time transfercase, or transfercase option, adds a Differential
to the connection between the front and the rear.  This differential is
installed to allow the front of the transfer case to spin at a
different speed than the rear thus to prevent gears from binding on dry
or paved roadways.  The downside to such a differential is that while
there is traction, the max engine power is that is engineered into them
is put to both the back and front of the case, but when one end of the
vehicle slips, a majority of the power is sent to the slipping end of
the vehicle.  (and if you have an open rear or front end, that means
all that power transfer goes to just one wheel)

An Anytime Use transfercase uses a unique type of mechanical
differential.  Known as a Torsen design, this is a mechanically
designed limited slip differential.  It senses torque and works to
ensure that if an end of the transfercase begins to slip, that no
additional power is sent to that end, and instead more power is sent to
the end of the transfer case that has traction.

Mechanical transfercases often have the option of Low range, to help
when trying to get unstuck or pulling a heavy load.

Thus you want to know what kind of transfer case you have when figuring
out what you want to do as well.  I installed a limited slip in my
Ranger this past fall and it's made driving around in slush and snow
much easier without having to use 4WD.   My Wife's Durango has a
limited slip rear, with multi-setting mechanical transfercase that
supports 2WD, 4WD Full-Time, 4WD Part Time, and 4WD Low.
Spdloader - 12 Jan 2007 01:55 GMT
A-X-L-E

not         a x e l

Axel is only correct when talking about that fag Axel Rose.

Spdloader

>>I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
>> it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> ditch with a peg-leg (so called 4X4) in the Sport Trac Towing/Landing boat
> from Ramp thread.
Steve Barker - 12 Jan 2007 02:09 GMT
what about axel foley?

Signature

Steve Barker

> A-X-L-E
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Spdloader
Spdloader - 12 Jan 2007 03:46 GMT
Axel Foley. Forgot about him.

Just kills me to see people spell axle, or brakes (b-r-e-a-k-s) or solenoid,
(s-e-l-e-n-o-i-d). That one's even pronounced wrong by most folks.

Spdloader

Spdloader
> what about axel foley?
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> Spdloader
Steve Barker - 12 Jan 2007 04:56 GMT
or say "pin number"  or "vin number" or "nic card"

Signature

Steve Barker

> Axel Foley. Forgot about him.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Spdloader
Spdloader - 12 Jan 2007 14:25 GMT
...can I get an "amen"!?

Down off my soapbox now.

Later,

Spdloader

> or say "pin number"  or "vin number" or "nic card"
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> Spdloader
Jeff Strickland - 11 Jan 2007 20:20 GMT
Your truck has what are referred to as "open differentials." Open diffs are
the easiest to make, and they operate more smoothly from the perspective of
the vehicle operator. You have found the downside.

An open diff applies power equally to both rear tires (and front tires in
4WD) UNTIL one of the tires begins to slip due to lost traction, then the
diff will apply full power to the tire that has lost traction. The result in
4WD is that it is common to see diagonal tires spinning when traction is
compromised.

If the vehicle has limited slip differentials, then power ought to be
applied to the tire that still has traction. And, a vehicle that is equipped
with a locker will get equal power to both tires on the same axle without
regard to the status of the traction under each tire.

>I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
> it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks.
russschell@gmail.com - 11 Jan 2007 21:12 GMT
Thanks Jeff. I appreciate the explanation and should probably take the
"4X4" emblem off the front of the truck! (LOL!)

> Your truck has what are referred to as "open differentials." Open diffs are
> the easiest to make, and they operate more smoothly from the perspective of
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> >
> > Thanks.
Jeff Strickland - 11 Jan 2007 23:24 GMT
That would be absurd. In the context of $WD, what you have is what they
build.

If you want more, then spend a few dollars and install a limited slip unit
in the differential, or install a locker for the ultimate in traction. Both
limited slip and lockers have overhead and baggage that an open diff hasn't
got, but they also offer significant enhancements to traction. Only you can
determine if the baggage outweighs the benefits.

I have a Jeep CJ5 that has a locker installed in both axles, and I would not
have it any other way, but there are many that would not want the set up
that I have. My locker builds stress that can unload at any time, and when
it does unload, it does it with lots of drama and noise. It can be very
unnerving to have the locker unload, but the traction is huge, and I need
traction when I am wheeling.

> Thanks Jeff. I appreciate the explanation and should probably take the
> "4X4" emblem off the front of the truck! (LOL!)
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>> >
>> > Thanks.
Matt Mead - 12 Jan 2007 01:45 GMT
Nobody has commented on the original posters comments about his 98
Jeep Cherokee churning ALL wheels in mud/snow.....

If your Jeep is factory stock (meaning you haven't added lockers), the
best it has is some type of limited slip in the rear diff, giving you
no more than an almost 3wd.  

It may be better in the mud and snow, but I'd hazzard to guess it has
more to do with weight distribution and conditions than the 4x4
system.

As has already been alluded to, most 4x4s out there have an open front
diff and many have open rear diffs, meaning there aren't many true
4x4s.  Open diff 4x4s are still far superior to 2x4s, even those with
limited slips or lockers, if for no other reason than you do have two
ends of the vehicle working instead of just one end trying to push.

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4 (almost 3wd....)


>Thanks Jeff. I appreciate the explanation and should probably take the
>"4X4" emblem off the front of the truck! (LOL!)
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>> >
>> > Thanks.
My Name Is Nobody - 12 Jan 2007 01:59 GMT
<Snip>

> Open diff 4x4s are still far superior to 2x4s, even those with
> limited slips or lockers, if for no other reason than you do have two
> ends of the vehicle working instead of just one end trying to push.

Often 4x4 is superior, but not always, like I have already said, Straddle an
open ditch at an angle with an open differential 4X4 and see why it is
inferior to a limited slip, it will sit with one tire front and rear hanging
over the ditch doing nothing, with no power to them, while the tires hanging
(resistance free) in the air over the ditch get all or the power and you go
nowhere.

A savy driver off road can get farther with a rear wheel only limited slip
rear end truck than many peg-legged 4X4 drivers...

> Matt
> 99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4 (almost 3wd....)

<Snip>
Matt Mead - 19 Jan 2007 00:42 GMT
><Snip>
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>(resistance free) in the air over the ditch get all or the power and you go
>nowhere.

There will always be one person who wants to argue this.  I'd say
96.7% of the time my scenario wins.

>A savy driver off road can get farther with a rear wheel only limited slip
>rear end truck than many peg-legged 4X4 drivers...

Right......  And a savvy driver with an open diffed 4x4 will make him
look like a fool.

Do we need to pick nits here?

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4
Mellowed - 12 Jan 2007 16:54 GMT
Matt,

Sorry but I'm coming into this late.

His Cherokee is probably full time 4WD.  If a wheel slips on my Jeep
Commander, the vehicle computer applies the brake to the slipping wheel.
Wheel slip is detected by the ABS sensor.  If in a 'rock crawling'
scenario,  4WD Low range will lock both F/R differentials, plus the
center differential.  The Cherokee full time 4WD is far more
sophisticated than the simple part time 4WD.

: Nobody has commented on the original posters comments about his 98
: Jeep Cherokee churning ALL wheels in mud/snow.....
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
: >> >
: >> > Thanks.
Matt Mead - 19 Jan 2007 00:38 GMT
And a late reply right back at ya.....  :)

I did consider fancy electronics, but I guessed a '98 Cherokee
probably wasn't that advanced.  I'm no Jeep expert though, I'll
concede that!

Matt
99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4

>Matt,
>
[quoted text clipped - 70 lines]
>: >> >
>: >> > Thanks.
Marlin Singer - 12 Jan 2007 02:17 GMT
> I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
> it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks.

To get back to your question. It could be an open diff or it could be a
limited slip that the clutches have gone out. When the go out, the rear
acts just like an open diff. The best way to tell if your truck came
with a limited slip or an open diff is to look at the axle code on the
door plate. If it is 2 numbers, like 19, it is an open diff. If it is a
letter and a number, like H9, it is limited slip.
samstone@aol.com - 12 Jan 2007 04:03 GMT
>I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
>it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Thanks.

Why not 4L ?          >:|
Steve Barker - 12 Jan 2007 04:57 GMT
HI or LO, has nothing to do with open or posi differentials.

Signature

Steve Barker

> Why not 4L ?          >:|
samstone@aol.com - 12 Jan 2007 05:30 GMT
>HI or LO, has nothing to do with open or posi differentials.

didn't say it did, and i was asking the OP

>> Why not 4L ?          >:|
My Name Is Nobody - 12 Jan 2007 05:44 GMT
>>HI or LO, has nothing to do with open or posi differentials.
>>
> didn't say it did, and i was asking the OP

Why does it matter?

>>> Why not 4L ?          >:|
Mark Jones - 12 Jan 2007 04:04 GMT
> I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I
> got it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Is this really 4WD or 3WD... or is something not working right? I know
> in my 98 Cherokee all the wheels churn in snow or mud.

You need a limited slip rear end to avoid this problem.

My 2000 Ranger 4x4 was like yours. My 2004 F-150 4x4
is limited slip and works as good in 2 wheel drive as my
Ranger did in 4x4 mode when the snow piles up.
Mellowed - 12 Jan 2007 17:00 GMT
Russ,

The next time you get in that situation, try applying the brakes
simultaneously with the gas.  This will slow down the slipping wheel and
transfer some torque to the spinning wheel.

: I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
: it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
:
: Thanks.
russschell@gmail.com - 12 Jan 2007 19:10 GMT
Thanks to you, and to all who have replied/commented. Didn't mean to
start a "war" here, but I appreciate the responses.

> Russ,
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> :
> : Thanks.
Nemisis - 12 Jan 2007 18:42 GMT
russsch...@gmail.com wrote:
> I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
> it into the mud pretty good, locked the hubs, and shifted into 4H.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Thanks.

You wouldn't be in Little Rock, Ar. would you?

Mark
russschell@gmail.com - 12 Jan 2007 19:12 GMT
No. Not Little Rock. SW Ohio... where it's grey and cloudy from October
'til April!

> russsch...@gmail.com wrote:
> > I have an '87 F-150 4X4. (Just got in in September.) Last weekend I got
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Mark
Nemisis - 15 Jan 2007 17:03 GMT
My son had an aquaintance at Little Rock AFB who buried an older F150
up
to the frame.  Wanted to use my son's new Explorer to pull it out.  Ha!
I understand he had quite a time getting it out.

Mark

> No. Not Little Rock. SW Ohio... where it's grey and cloudy from October
> 'til April!
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> >
> > Mark
 
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