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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / January 2007Low Fuel Warning Light
On my '06 F-250 6.0 Diesel with the 8 foot bed I have a 38 gal. fuel tank. Twice now when low on fuel, the "Low Fuel" warning light came on. Each time I immediately got fuel topping off the tank with 33 gals. This indicates to me that the reserve fuel is 5 gals. Does anyone know what Ford has set the reserve level at? 5 gals. seem like quite an ample reserve, but I could not find any information in the owners manual regarding the reserve capacity? Thanx for any info on this, Danny. My 06 F-150 fuel alarm goes off when the computer estimates I have enough gas for 50 miles, not sure if the 250 diesel is the same or not. Bob > On my '06 F-250 6.0 Diesel with the 8 foot bed I have a 38 gal. fuel tank. > Twice now when low on fuel, the "Low Fuel" warning light came on. Each [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > reserve, but I could not find any information in the owners manual > regarding the reserve capacity? Thanx for any info on this, Danny. >On my '06 F-250 6.0 Diesel with the 8 foot bed I have a 38 gal. fuel tank. >Twice now when low on fuel, the "Low Fuel" warning light came on. Each time >I immediately got fuel topping off the tank with 33 gals. This indicates to >me that the reserve fuel is 5 gals. Does anyone know what Ford has set the >reserve level at? 5 gals. seem like quite an ample reserve, but I could not >find any information in the owners manual regarding the reserve capacity? I sure wouldn't count on 5gal. Diesel foams, it is hard to get an accurate fill unless you do it very slowly. > On my '06 F-250 6.0 Diesel with the 8 foot bed I have a 38 gal. fuel > tank. Twice now when low on fuel, the "Low Fuel" warning light came [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > owners manual regarding the reserve capacity? Thanx for any info on > this, Danny. Fuel pumps are now inside the fuel tank and need to be covered with fuel to prevent overheating and burn out. Tom J Wives tale. Not true. No evidence to that effect. Damn, I'm tired of hearing this bullshit about fuel pumps burning up. It JUST DOESN'T HAPPEN!!  SignatureSteve Barker > Fuel pumps are now inside the fuel tank and need to be covered with fuel > to prevent overheating and burn out. > > Tom J > Wives tale. Not true. No evidence to that effect. Damn, I'm tired of > hearing this bullshit about fuel pumps burning up. It JUST DOESN'T > HAPPEN!! Really now? Hmm, thats why if you look at the engineering drawings for the fuel pump, you will see that the fuel does indeed contact the ENTIRE motor winding, thus creating a cooling effect and carrying away excess heat.. See fuel isnt flammable as a liquid, its the vapors that are flammable (but then you would have to get a C in chemistry to know that), so it is perfectly safe to use the fuel to cool the motor on a fuel pump. They wouldnt have to cooled if they didnt have to make 40-60psi in the fuel line. Ford Tech Yes, and you 'll notice if you've ever sat a glass of water on the dash of a car, the liquid sloshes all over, all the time. Even with a very small amount of fuel in the tank, it will still be splashing on the outer part of the pump. Not to mention (and you should know as a ford tech) the ford pumps are enclosed in a plastic housing with a somewhat complex siphon system that keeps the pump submerged in fuel down to the last drop. As for the other makes of automobiles, the mere action of the fuel going through the pump cools it, so as long as the pump is pumping fuel, it is being cooled. When it runs out of fuel, then there is no load and no need to cool. Not to mention as soon as the engine dies, the fuel pump will quit within a few seconds of oil pressure loss. SignatureSteve Barker >> Wives tale. Not true. No evidence to that effect. Damn, I'm tired of >> hearing this bullshit about fuel pumps burning up. It JUST DOESN'T [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ford Tech > Yes, and you 'll notice if you've ever sat a glass of water on the dash of > a car, the liquid sloshes all over, all the time. Even with a very small [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > through the pump cools it, so as long as the pump is pumping fuel, it is > being cooled. I am not going to say you are wrong here, but their are a couple of other things to consider. 1. In the summer, the less fuel you have the warmer the fuel gets due to more vapor in the system that heat up quicker than liquid. 2. In the winter the less fuel you have the more air in the system and subsequently moisture to cause condensation and fuel in the water, leading to a higher possibility of frozen fuel lines on cold nights. So as you can see, its best to keep the tank above 1/4 tank. When it runs out of fuel, then there is no load and no need to > cool. Not to mention as soon as the engine dies, the fuel pump will quit > within a few seconds of oil pressure loss. Ford Tech > I am not going to say you are wrong here, but their are a couple of other > things to consider. > 1. In the summer, the less fuel you have the warmer the fuel gets due to > more vapor in the system that heat up quicker than liquid. The fuel pump doesn't pump vapor. > 2. In the winter the less fuel you have the more air in the system and > subsequently moisture to cause condensation and fuel in the water, leading > to a higher possibility of frozen fuel lines on cold nights. You know, I'd expect someone who worked Fords' technical hotline to at least understand how the evaporative emissions system works. > So as you can see, its best to keep the tank above 1/4 tank. >> I am not going to say you are wrong here, but their are a couple of other >> things to consider. >> 1. In the summer, the less fuel you have the warmer the fuel gets due to >> more vapor in the system that heat up quicker than liquid. > > The fuel pump doesn't pump vapor. No but it does have to pump the warmer fuel. The less fuel the easier it is to heat it up during the summer heat. >> 2. In the winter the less fuel you have the more air in the system and >> subsequently moisture to cause condensation and fuel in the water, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > You know, I'd expect someone who worked Fords' technical hotline > to at least understand how the evaporative emissions system works. I know how it works, but it doesnt stop condensation all together, especially when the temperatures get as cold as 10-20 deg F. >> So as you can see, its best to keep the tank above 1/4 tank. > >> I am not going to say you are wrong here, but their are a couple of other > >> things to consider. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > No but it does have to pump the warmer fuel. The less fuel the easier it is > to heat it up during the summer heat. So, where does vapor play a role? You must have included it for a reason, or do you get paid by the word? > >> 2. In the winter the less fuel you have the more air in the system and > >> subsequently moisture to cause condensation and fuel in the water, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I know how it works, but it doesnt stop condensation all together, > especially when the temperatures get as cold as 10-20 deg F. It does until you remove the gas cap. Now, as far as 10-20 deg F. goes, check the current weather stats around the country, report back what the dew points are where the temperatures are 10-20 deg Fahrenheit. >> >> I am not going to say you are wrong here, but their are a couple of >> >> other [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > So, where does vapor play a role? You must have included it for > a reason, or do you get paid by the word? The vapor comes in when you talk about heat transfer. The vapor heats up more easily than liquid (following me here?), thus allows the fuel to heat up quicker. When the fuel heats up to about 90*F on a 105*F day in the midwest, then everything on the vehicle is working harder, including the fuel pump.. Thus it allows the bearings to overheat more readily, thus causing fuel pump failure. >> >> 2. In the winter the less fuel you have the more air in the system and >> >> subsequently moisture to cause condensation and fuel in the water, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > around the country, report back what the dew points are where the > temperatures are 10-20 deg Fahrenheit. Actually the temp here right now according to www.weatherbug.com is 10*F and the dew point is 6*F. I never said all over the country, but to be exact about THREE-FOURTHS of the country is experiencing sub-freezing temps right now, and over half of that part is experiencing single digit and below. (Current temps as of 12:06AM CST) You can punch in 66762 as the zipcode to get the same info I just gave you. > > So, where does vapor play a role? You must have included it for > > a reason, or do you get paid by the word? > > The vapor comes in when you talk about heat transfer. The vapor heats up > more easily than liquid (following me here?), thus allows the fuel to heat > up quicker. The vapor is due to the fuel heating up and fuel sloshing, not the other way around. And why isn't the purge system working as it's supposed to? Any engine that has run long enough to create the scenario you describe has gone into closed loop long enough for the purge system to be active. > When the fuel heats up to about 90*F on a 105*F day in the > midwest, then everything on the vehicle is working harder, including the > fuel pump.. Thus it allows the bearings to overheat more readily, thus > causing fuel pump failure. Doesn't viscosity tend to go down with heat? Why does fuel automatically become harder to pump as it gets warmer? > > It does until you remove the gas cap. > > Now, as far as 10-20 deg F. goes, check the current weather stats [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (Current temps as of 12:06AM CST) You can punch in 66762 as the zipcode to > get the same info I just gave you. You do realize that a dew point of 6 is mighty dry air don't you? So, we've got cold temps and dew points in the single digits, where is all this moisture going to come from that is going to condense and cause fuel line freezing? When air is cold, it becomes more dense, squeezing any moisture out of it, lowering the moisture content. Basic seventh grade science. >> > So, where does vapor play a role? You must have included it for >> > a reason, or do you get paid by the word? [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > where is all this moisture going to come from that is going to > condense and cause fuel line freezing? Well I guess it is going to come from the same place all the condensation on the underside of my barn shed roofs is coming from (22 degrees Fahrenheit here today). When the sun heats the dark color steel roof, the frozen condensation melts and drips all over my implements... All the while the frozen water outside is freeze drying (changing from solid ice to vapor, skipping the liquid stage) and it is dry as hell out here... Go figure. > When air is cold, it becomes more dense, squeezing any moisture > out of it, lowering the moisture content. > Basic seventh grade science. > > You do realize that a dew point of 6 is mighty dry air don't you? > > So, we've got cold temps and dew points in the single digits, [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > frozen water outside is freeze drying (changing from solid ice to vapor, > skipping the liquid stage) and it is dry as hell out here... Go figure. Not a very good guess... Is the environment below your shed roof the same as the inside of a fuel tank? Does the sun directly heat the top side of a fuel tank/most fuel tanks? Does your shed have a purge system that draws fresh air in and pull vapors out? Shed floor, dirt, wood or concrete? Is the shed otherwise sealed? FWIW, that which you call freeze drying, [ice going from solid directly to a vapor] is called 'sublimation'. >> > You do realize that a dew point of 6 is mighty dry air don't you? So the 78% humidity level was a figment of my imagination? >> > So, we've got cold temps and dew points in the single digits, >> > where is all this moisture going to come from that is going to >> > condense and cause fuel line freezing? Read below, the fuel is heated in the fuel rail before returning to the tank via the fuel return line. Remember to help get rid of heat soak problems, and vapor locking the fuel system.. Oh and lest we forget the water you are going to pick up when you refill your tank at the local station. Every fuel storage tank has water in it, and if you get bad gas (ie fuel with a high percentage of water in it, and it has happened) due to a leak in the tank or just from the refining process alone, then it can and will build up in your tank if you fill up often enough. >> Well I guess it is going to come from the same place all the condensation >> on [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Does the sun directly heat the top side of a fuel tank/most fuel > tanks? It may not, but as you might know, most of the fuel systems these days, atleast on Fords, have recirc fuel systems (exception here is the NEW 3.5L which doesnt use a return). Meaning the fuel is pumped into the fuel rail, regulated to a certain pressure, and any excess is being pumped via a return line back to the tank, taking ANY heat the engine has to give off back with it. > Does your shed have a purge system that draws fresh air in and > pull vapors out? Correction, it does NOT draw fresh air in. It only relieves pressure from the vapors into either the intake or the purge canister. (that is what the purge valve is for, why draw fresh air in, and loose the fuel that has evaporated, we want to keep that as much as possible.) That is what sets the CEL, is the low pressure in the system. I recently had an issue with my CEL coming on due to a muskrat chewing through my purge line on my tank. I taped it up and all was good, but it took the light almost 20min on the highway to come on, in 75*F weather. The reason you want higher pressure in the tank is because it requires a higher boiling point for liquids at higher pressures. Fuel ya know has a boiling point of 72*F at sea level. So ya heat the contents of the fuel tank up by recircing it from the engine, you pressurize the fuel in the tank (slightly less than 10psi), and then ya let it cool... Gives ya condensation. > Shed floor, dirt, wood or concrete? > Is the shed otherwise sealed? > > FWIW, that which you call freeze drying, [ice going from solid > directly to a vapor] is called 'sublimation'. And all the while the vehicle isnt running, there fore the purge system isnt operating, and that vapor will condense the next time you run your engine. Ford Tech >>> > You do realize that a dew point of 6 is mighty dry air don't you? > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > return line back to the tank, taking ANY heat the engine has to give off > back with it. I forgot to add here. That the heat taken back to the tank on diesel engines is MUCH higher due to the fuel flowing through the HEAD and not just a fuel rail. If you check the temp of the fuel before you start a diesel, and after it has ran for 20min I bet on ANY tank you will notice atleast a 5*F difference in the temps due to the heat taken back to the tank. This also helps with anti-gelling during the winter months. I also forgot to add that the water in a fuel tank will NOT evaporate in liquid form, because the fuel is lighter than water, therefore blocking air from evaporating the fuel. The water in the tank, unless its a hot day, will not boil, but it will condensate once the temp gets high enough in the tank. So more water can be added back to the tank from any air that might have been in there. >> Does your shed have a purge system that draws fresh air in and >> pull vapors out? [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Ford Tech > >> > You do realize that a dew point of 6 is mighty dry air don't you? > > So the 78% humidity level was a figment of my imagination? Nope. But you need to understand the difference between -relative- humidity and the amount of moisture in the air. > >> > So, we've got cold temps and dew points in the single digits, > >> > where is all this moisture going to come from that is going to > >> > condense and cause fuel line freezing? > > Read below, the fuel is heated in the fuel rail before returning to the tank > via the fuel return line. Many late model vehicles (Ford included) use returnless fuel systems. > Remember to help get rid of heat soak problems, > and vapor locking the fuel system.. I always do. I also try to remember to turn off the coffee pot when I leave the house. > Oh and lest we forget the water you are > going to pick up when you refill your tank at the local station. Every fuel > storage tank has water in it, and if you get bad gas (ie fuel with a high > percentage of water in it, and it has happened) due to a leak in the tank or > just from the refining process alone, then it can and will build up in your > tank if you fill up often enough. According to this then, keeping your fuel level above 1/4 tank (or whatever it is you're advocating) will result in MORE water in your fuel tank. According to this, the best solution is to not buy fuel, i.e., an EMPTY fuel tank. > >> Well I guess it is going to come from the same place all the condensation > >> on [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > line back to the tank, taking ANY heat the engine has to give off back with > it. Umm, no. Returnless fuel systems have become more prevalent over the last 12 model years. > > Does your shed have a purge system that draws fresh air in and > > pull vapors out? > > Correction, it does NOT draw fresh air in. Like hell it doesn't. > It only relieves pressure from > the vapors into either the intake or the purge canister. (that is what the > purge valve is for, why draw fresh air in, and loose the fuel that has > evaporated, we want to keep that as much as possible.) Never heard of the canister vent solenoid (CVS)? Do you actually think that purge can occur without allowing fresh air into the system? Like a said earlier, one would -think- that someone who worked for Fords' technical hot line would have a minimal understanding about how the EVAP systems actually worked. You may want to start with the diagnostics for codes P0455, P1450 and P1451. > That is what sets the > CEL, is the low pressure in the system. There are lots of things that can malfunction that will illuminate the CEL. > I recently had an issue with my CEL > coming on due to a muskrat chewing through my purge line on my tank. I taped > it up and all was good, but it took the light almost 20min on the highway to > come on, in 75*F weather. Am I supposed to be surprised by this as you were? Did you ever look at the monitor criteria for the EVAP system? > The reason you want higher pressure in the tank is > because it requires a higher boiling point for liquids at higher pressures. This is just ridiculous. > Fuel ya know has a boiling point of 72*F at sea level. What fuel has a boiling point of 72*F at sea level? Good god, it couldn't possibly be gasoline, and this site; http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-boiling-point-d_936.html pretty much proves that you are in error. > So ya heat the > contents of the fuel tank up by recircing it from the engine, you pressurize > the fuel in the tank (slightly less than 10psi), and then ya let it cool... Pressurize to 10 PSI? No way, no how. 10 inches of water would be more like it. Pressurize to 10 PSI and you'd be popping all sorts of grommets and unclamped vapor hoses. > Gives ya condensation. Condensation from where? You just got done (erroneously) explaining how the system is not vented and is pressurized to 10 PSI. Half of what you say contradicts the other half. > > Shed floor, dirt, wood or concrete? > > Is the shed otherwise sealed? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And all the while the vehicle isnt running, there fore the purge system isnt > operating, and that vapor will condense the next time you run your engine. But you earlier claimed that it was the heated fuel from the running engine that caused the condensation. Half of what you say contradicts the other half. >> >> > You do realize that a dew point of 6 is mighty dry air don't you? >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > in your fuel tank. According to this, the best solution is to > not buy fuel, i.e., an EMPTY fuel tank. No this was used as an example of WHERE the water would come from. And it is completely possible for this to happen. I have seen it with my own two eyes. Havent you? You work at a dealership.. >> >> Well I guess it is going to come from the same place all the >> >> condensation [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Umm, no. Returnless fuel systems have become more prevalent over > the last 12 model years. Not on Fords, what dealership did you say you worked at? Cause EVERY fuel system on a Ford EFI engine that I have seen in about that time span, has used a LOOP system that continuously returns fuel to the tank while the ignition is on. Here is link so you can update your knowledge into the next century. Enjoy. http://fordfuelinjection.com/Inject_your_horse3.pdf Watch out, its a PDF document, you need Adobe reader to view it. Oh and this does come with pictures for you. By the way, this only emphasizes what I have said about the fuel return, and what I have been taught through the years. >> > Does your shed have a purge system that draws fresh air in and >> > pull vapors out? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Do you actually think that purge can occur without allowing fresh > air into the system? You might want to look at this diagram on the second page. As explained the VMV is mainly used for TESTING purposes only. To check for leaks somewhere in the range of .020"-.040". http://www.motorage.com/motorage/data/articlestandard/motorage/102005/149558/art icle.pdf > Like a said earlier, one would -think- that someone who worked > for Fords' technical hot line would have a minimal understanding [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Am I supposed to be surprised by this as you were? And who said I was suprised by this? Although I figured if it was going to come on, then it would have done so at start up, not while driving down the highway.. > Did you ever look at the monitor criteria for the EVAP system? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/fuels-boiling-point-d_936.html > pretty much proves that you are in error. Well according to this site, which lists the boiling point of gasoline as 40*-200*C makes me right, because 40x1.8= 72*F. Unless you have a better calculator than I do? You might want to read around before you start knocking down peoples information. http://www.chemcool.com/regents/physicalbehaviorofmatter/aim2.htm Also by this chart you will notice the boiling point of Kerosene which is used to make diesel fuel has a starting boiling point lower than the highest boiling point of gasoline, so in the refining process I would take anything that boiled over 100*C and use it in diesel fuel, not gasoline. >> So ya heat the >> contents of the fuel tank up by recircing it from the engine, you [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Pressurize to 10 PSI and you'd be popping all sorts of grommets > and unclamped vapor hoses. Ok I was wrong on the exact pressure, its actually about 6-10"H2O which is about .25-2.8psi as described here http://www.babcox.com/editorial/us/us10126.htm. Which means in hot weather your fuel tank does have some pressure on it. I did notice in one article that it stated something about a vacuum release valve in the fuel cap, but that it was used in case the VMV or "canister purge valve" gets stuck and vacuum exceeds test specifications. >> Gives ya condensation. > > Condensation from where? You just got done (erroneously) > explaining how the system is not vented and is pressurized to 10 > PSI. Half of what you say contradicts the other half. I dont know how you can say that. Maybe in your mind, or maybe I didnt explain it clear enough. >> > Shed floor, dirt, wood or concrete? >> > Is the shed otherwise sealed? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> operating, and that vapor will condense the next time you run your >> engine. Ford Tech >>> >> > You do realize that a dew point of 6 is mighty dry air don't you? >>> [quoted text clipped - 146 lines] >Well according to this site, which lists the boiling point of gasoline as >40*-200*C makes me right, because 40x1.8= 72*F. lol funny, almost as funny as american idol tonight > Unless you have a better >calculator than I do? You might want to read around before you start [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > >Ford Tech >>>> Fuel ya know has a boiling point of 72*F at sea level. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>Well according to this site, which lists the boiling point of gasoline as >>40*-200*C makes me right, because 40x1.8= 72*F. > lol funny, almost as funny as american idol tonight >> Unless you have a better calculator than I do? You might want to read >> around before you start [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>anything >>that boiled over 100*C and use it in diesel fuel, not gasoline. You reposted that whole post just to add that.. Now THAT was funny. So just curious, which part of that was funny? The part that I was right, or the part that he had other info? Ford Tech >>>> >> > You do realize that a dew point of 6 is mighty dry air don't you? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 158 lines] >>40*-200*C makes me right, because 40x1.8= 72*F. > lol funny, almost as funny as american idol tonight skimmer: 40C = 72F ? Are you out of your mind? This is just our point FT. Get it right, or shut up. And please don't ask forgiveness for making a typo. That is also the point. If you can't type it in and be correct....stay out. >> Unless you have a better >>calculator than I do? You might want to read around before you start [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] >> >>Ford Tech >>>Well according to this site, which lists the boiling point of gasoline as >>>40*-200*C makes me right, because 40x1.8= 72*F. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > typo. That is also the point. If you can't type it in and be > correct....stay out. Oops I forgot to add the 32 on top of that.. LOL I just did the multiplication.. But hey everyone is entitled to make a mistake... Atleast I admit mine. Skimmer I suggest if you dont have anything useful to add to this forum, other than bashing on other people, that you not reply.. I do appreciate you pointing out that error though. Thanks. > >> Oh and lest we forget the water you are > >> going to pick up when you refill your tank at the local station. Every [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > No this was used as an example of WHERE the water would come from. Hold on a minute, if the water comes from leaking underground storage tanks, why are you claiming that it comes from running your fuel level too low? Or are you saying that one should keep their fuel above a certain level to dilute the water that is going to be pumped in unavoidably from underground storage? > And it is completely possible for this to happen. I have seen it with my own two eyes. You've seen what with your own two eyes, water laying in the bottom of a storage tank being sucked up by the delivery pump and then being dispensed into a fuel tank? > Havent you? Nope. i will not/have not ever hung around the insides of a fuel storage tank watching water get pulled up the pipes to the pump(s), and if I had, I'd have said something to the person dispensing the fuel. What I'm saying is that you really have no way of knowing where the water contamination came from. For all you know, it was caused by cross contamination by the bulk carrier that delivered that load of fuel and as a reminder, non of this in any way supports your assertion that not keeping your fuel tank above a certain level is going to result in disabling amounts of water in a fuel tank. >You work at a dealership.. I -have- worked at dealerships, but last time I checked, slavery was abolished sometime right after the civil war. > > Umm, no. Returnless fuel systems have become more prevalent over > > the last 12 model years. > > Not on Fords, Yes on Fords. > what dealership did you say you worked at? How far back do you want me to go? (the 70s?) Can I include the major metropolitan natural gas utility fleet where when hired, I was the #1 pick over 375 applicants? How about the major diagnostic equipment manufacturer where I was the regional training manager? How about the state IM-240 program where I was the senior referee overseeing 8 test stations with a total of 44 test lanes, 2 diagnostic centers, chaired the ad hoc steering committee, hosted numerous visiting officials from other states /countries, hosted in service days for just about every tech school instructor in the state/ fuel and ignition manufacturers from across the country, technician outreach, etc, etc, etc... > Cause EVERY fuel > system on a Ford EFI engine that I have seen in about that time span, has > used a LOOP system that continuously returns fuel to the tank while the > ignition is on. While the ignition is on? Maybe for two or three seconds when the key is first turned on but rest assured, even from the earliest days of EEC IV, for the fuel pump to continue running, there HAD to be a RPM input to the PCM before the fuel pump would be energized via the fuel pump relay. You want a lesson on repair and overhaul of VV carburetors too since we're covering really old BASIC stuff here? > Here is link so you can update your knowledge into the next > century. Enjoy. http://fordfuelinjection.com/Inject_your_horse3.pdf Well junior, I know a Windsor block when I see one, so my guess is this is some backyard ~expert~ modding an EEC-IV system probably from the late 80s or early 90s. hell, the Windsor hasn't been used in a Mustang since 1995...Puh-leeze... This is sh.t I was fixing two decades ago, in the dealership where I usually had 40 hours booked before lunch on any Wednesday. <snip patronizing bullshit> > By the way, this only emphasizes what I have > said about the fuel return, and what I have been taught through the years. Well then, you are seriously out of date and in no position to be handing out your supposed truths about how anything built in the last dozen years works. If this represents the state of your knowledge, all I can say is find a different career because you have WAY to much catching up to do. In the mean time, chew on this a bit; http://www.aa1car.com/library/returnless_efi.htm DO note where they say; "Returnless systems are found on many late model cars and trucks. The first ones appeared back in 1993 on certain Chrysler V6 and V8 truck engines. By 1998, all Chrysler cars and light trucks had them. In 1996, Toyota introduced its first returnless system, followed by General Motors and Ford in 1999. Honda went "returnless" in 2001, and today you'll find returnless fuel injection systems on almost all new vehicles." > >> > Does your shed have a purge system that draws fresh air in and > >> > pull vapors out? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > http://www.motorage.com/motorage/data/articlestandard/motorage/102005/149558/a > rticle.pdf Okay, you've now proved that you don't know the difference between a vacuum management valve and a canister vent, even though the latter is shown in your above referenced article (it's the yellow thingy in the lower right corner in the diagram on page 17). Now be a good lad and follow the yellow arrows and note where they originate where it says "from atmosphere" and tell me how this in any way is different from what I've already described. > > Like a said earlier, one would -think- that someone who worked > > for Fords' technical hot line would have a minimal understanding [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > 40*-200*C makes me right, because 40x1.8= 72*F. Unless you have a better > calculator than I do? Is finding an ACCURATE temperature conversion such a major task for you? I don't know where you got that conversion formula, my guess is you either purposely ignored the "add 32*" part hoping to not get caught, or you're just plain sloppy. 40 degrees Celsius equals 104 degrees fahrenheit. No 'ifs, ands or buts. > You might want to read around before you start > knocking down peoples information. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > boiling point of gasoline, so in the refining process I would take anything > that boiled over 100*C and use it in diesel fuel, not gasoline. Ya know, at this point, if you told me the sky was blue, I wouldn't believe you. > >> So ya heat the > >> contents of the fuel tank up by recircing it from the engine, you [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Ok I was wrong on the exact pressure, its actually about 6-10"H2O which is > about .25-2.8psi as described here You've been wrong about a lot of things. You definitely also need to work on your pressure conversions because there is no way in hell that 10 inches of water equals anywhere near 2.8 PSI. (hint: 1 PSI= 2 inches of mercury=27.6 inches of water) > http://www.babcox.com/editorial/us/us10126.htm. Oh, just so you know, the guy that wrote that article (John Thornton), we've been friends for quite a few years... Now find me one from Bill Fulton and I'll tell you how long I've known him also. >Which means in hot weather > your fuel tank does have some pressure on it. It may, or it may not. Why don't you go back and actually read the article that ~you~ cited and try to understand when it might and when it might not. http://www.motorage.com/motorage/data/articlestandard/motorage/102 005/149558/article.pdf > I did notice in one article > that it stated something about a vacuum release valve in the fuel cap, but > that it was used in case the VMV or "canister purge valve" gets stuck and > vacuum exceeds test specifications. You worked Fords' tech line and you're first discovering this from a magazine article? > >> Gives ya condensation. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I dont know how you can say that. Maybe in your mind, or maybe I didnt > explain it clear enough. Please don't explain anything to me (or anyone else). I have way more years of experience than you (like 27 years more), way more training, way more certifications and way more dedication to the trade. > Well according to this site, which lists the boiling point of gasoline as > 40*-200*C makes me right, because 40x1.8= 72*F. Unless you have a better > calculator than I do? 40C = 104F. What college did you say you went to again? - David M (dmacchiarolo) http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled T/S 53 sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 6 days 6 min Ford Tech wrote: The boiling point of gasoline is 40*-200*C making me right, because 40x1.8= 72*F. Unless you have a better calculator. _______________________________________ 40C = 104F. What college did you go to? _______________________________________ degC = (degF + 40) / (1.8) - 40 degF = (degC + 40) X (1.8) - 40 Rodan. > Ford Tech wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Rodan. Rodan, you must have gone to the same cipherin' school as Ford Tech Kurtz did. deg C = (degF -32)/1.8 deg F = (deg C)*1.8 + 32 SignatureDavid M (dmacchiarolo) http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled T/S 53 sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 6 days 16:59 > Rodan, you must have gone to the same > cipherin' school as Ford Tech Kurtz did. > > deg C = (degF -32)/1.8 > deg F = (deg C)*1.8 + 32 I dont know if you noticed, but I did correct myself. I already stated that I forgot to add the 32 after doing the multiplication. But then again I guess you dont care about that! All you care about is running people down on here, and trying to make you look like your SH** dont stink. Well yer wrong my friend, everyone's stinks at some point in time. Atleast I admit my mistakes. Ford Tech > > Rodan, you must have gone to the same > > cipherin' school as Ford Tech Kurtz did. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ford Tech You didn't admit your mistake, you merely acknowledged it after it was pointed out. > But then again I > guess you dont care about that! Hey, you finally said something that was correct. > Atleast I admit my > mistakes. Only when you get called on the carpet. SignatureDavid M (dmacchiarolo) http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled T/S 53 sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14 has been up 7 days 1:11 > Wives tale. Not true. No evidence to that effect. Damn, I'm tired > of hearing this bullshit about fuel pumps burning up. It JUST > DOESN'T HAPPEN!! Go ahead and run your fuel to empty & then pay!!! IT DOES HAPPEN on a regular basis to people that insist on runing to near empty before adding fuel. Tom J I manage a fleet of 34 trucks and about 19 of them are Fords. Been doing this for 11 years. We routinely run the tanks out of fuel before switching. Currently we're averaging over 100,000 miles on electric in tank fuel pumps. SignatureSteve Barker >> Wives tale. Not true. No evidence to that effect. Damn, I'm tired >> of hearing this bullshit about fuel pumps burning up. It JUST [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Tom J > On my '06 F-250 6.0 Diesel with the 8 foot bed I have a 38 gal. fuel tank. > Twice now when low on fuel, the "Low Fuel" warning light came on. Each [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > reserve, but I could not find any information in the owners manual > regarding the reserve capacity? Thanx for any info on this, Danny. Precice numbers will probably not be available. My gas powered Ford van owner's manual says that the low fuel light comes on at 1/8 of a tank. Since the gauge isn't totally accurate anyway, I'd be afraid to peg the low fuel indicator to a specific amount of fuel though. CJB > On my '06 F-250 6.0 Diesel with the 8 foot bed I have a 38 gal. fuel tank. > Twice now when low on fuel, the "Low Fuel" warning light came on. Each [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > reserve, but I could not find any information in the owners manual > regarding the reserve capacity? Thanx for any info on this, Danny. Danny, CJB is correct on this one. ALL 04 and newer "Low Fuel" lights come on at 1/8 of a tank remaining. Just so happens when you divide 38 by 8 what do you get? By my calculations I get 4.75gal. So you are close. It will go off at that level, but what you have to remember is what Tom J said. The pumps are indeed inside the tank and use the fuel as a coolant. SO in order to allow you to keep from burning out the low fuel light and consiquently your fuel pump, you should keep it above a 1/4 tank at all times, MORE importantly is in the summer when it gets hot. As for reserve capacity, all tanks have a 2gal built in reserve, this IS NOT your low fuel light. That is from the time the guage points to E for EMPTY. You should NEVER hit your low fuel light unless you are just SOOOOO far from a gas station that it cant be helped.. I have hit my low fuel light ONCE and it was driving on a trip from Seattle to south east Kansas, and I didnt see a gas station for about 150mi, and I past the last gas station at half a tank, and didnt know my truck very well at that time. So I urge you to keep from costly fuel pump replacements, fill your tank up at or above 1/4 tank. Ford Tech My '06 F-350 6.0 is very consistant (all four times I've run it down) at turning on the low fuel light when the computer indicates 50 miles left. The amount I can then put back into the tank varies because, as I understand the system, it calculates miles left based on consumption over the last 400 miles. Because of this, when I start towing, I pay a lot closer attention to the fuel gauge because the low fuel light won't come on until I'm empty. > On my '06 F-250 6.0 Diesel with the 8 foot bed I have a 38 gal. fuel tank. > Twice now when low on fuel, the "Low Fuel" warning light came on. Each time [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > find any information in the owners manual regarding the reserve capacity? > Thanx for any info on this, Danny. > On my '06 F-250 6.0 Diesel with the 8 foot bed I have a 38 gal. fuel tank. > Twice now when low on fuel, the "Low Fuel" warning light came on. Each [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > reserve, but I could not find any information in the owners manual > regarding the reserve capacity? Thanx for any info on this, Danny. Only reason I replied to this thread is because it was a DIESEL question, unless someone can refute my knowledge about diesels, can we just drop this and agree that you shouldn't run the tank down to the "low fuel light". We seem to have gotten off the subject on this thread, surprise.. LOL Fuel is circulated through the head on the International (Ford) 7.3 and 6.0L diesels, and this carries quite a bit of heat back to the tank. Therefore, allowing your tank to get down to about 5 gal allows the fuel to warm up quickly. This will cause a more rapid depletion in the additives of the fuel, and possible over heating (gumming) of the fuel pump. Thanks to the addition of parrafin wax (used to help lubricate the upper cylinder area). If water wasnt present in fuel (diesel is more prone than gas) then all diesel engine manufacturers wouldnt have need to install fuel/water serparators. Running the fuel down to a minimum level pretty much assures that you will pick up the water in the bottom of the tank, where as otherwise it might not happen as much. Ford Tech > > On my '06 F-250 6.0 Diesel with the 8 foot bed I have a 38 gal. fuel tank. > > Twice now when low on fuel, the "Low Fuel" warning light came on. Each [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and agree that you shouldn't run the tank down to the "low fuel light". We > seem to have gotten off the subject on this thread, surprise.. LOL LOL is right. You cited a reference to an outdated gasoline engine to try and prove a point. > Fuel is circulated through the head on the International (Ford) 7.3 and 6.0L > diesels, and this carries quite a bit of heat back to the tank. Therefore, > allowing your tank to get down to about 5 gal allows the fuel to warm up > quickly. This will cause a more rapid depletion in the additives of the > fuel, Which additives? Why don't these additives deplete at the nozzle where it's even hotter? >and possible over heating (gumming) of the fuel pump. "gumming" is not "overheating." Ever hear someone say that their overheating vehicle was "gumming?" > Thanks to the > addition of parrafin wax (used to help lubricate the upper cylinder area). Addition? > If water wasnt present in fuel (diesel is more prone than gas) then all > diesel engine manufacturers wouldnt have need to install fuel/water > serparators. Thing is, the water separators are not there because people run their fuel levels low. I've worked two fleets where the diesel trucks were seldom run below 1/2 tank, the trucks were refueled after every shift yet the water separators still caught water, and no, the storage tanks were not leaking. I have also made cross country trips in 1 ton Ford diesels towing a 40 foot 5th wheel enclosed car hauler with two cars inside where we consistently ran the fuel down to one gallon or less left in the tank with absolutely no ill effects. > Running the fuel down to a minimum level pretty much assures > that you will pick up the water in the bottom of the tank, where as > otherwise it might not happen as much. As someone referenced in an earlier post; Ever try driving with a coffee cup in the cup holder without a lid? Are you going to argue that it doesn't slosh and spill? Does it occur to you that the fuel in the tank is doing the exact same thing? Ever hear of a fuel gauge slosh module? >> > On my '06 F-250 6.0 Diesel with the 8 foot bed I have a 38 gal. fuel >> > tank. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Which additives? First one I can think of off the top of my head is Cetane, ya know to help speed up the burn of the fuel in the cylinder. Which is just the opposite of Octane, which is used to slow the burn of gasoline in the cylinder to better control the burn. Most diesel runs a cetane of about 43, but can vary usually between 30-60 for highway grade diesel fuel. > Why don't these additives deplete at the nozzle where it's even > hotter? Because at that point in time we dont care. They are being injected into the cylinder and we want them to atomize, and they are already trapped in a closed enviroment (the combustion chamber), so even if it evaporates, it wont be lost just vaporized. The fuel doesnt sit at the very tip of the nozzle, it held behind a poppet valve, and usually requires about 2,700psi (but can be as high as 5,000psi depending on the system), to lift the poppet and expose the fuel to the nozzle end of the injector. >>and possible over heating (gumming) of the fuel pump. > > "gumming" is not "overheating." NO but gumming can lead to overheating as it coats surfaces, and doesnt allow for heat transfer as effectively. > Ever hear someone say that their overheating vehicle was > "gumming?" Nope, but i have heard of sludge buildup and tarnishing of an engine. Have you ever let a weed eater set in the garage over the winter with fuel in it that has been there since late July? If you have then you have seen this gumming effect for yourself. I have seen filters on weedeaters so plugged that they have to be replaced and the carbs dismantled and cleaned. That is why you dont want to let fuel sit and allow the additives to evaporate. The warmer the fuel is, the faster the evaporation. >> Thanks to the >> addition of parrafin wax (used to help lubricate the upper cylinder >> area). > > Addition? Yes there is already some in diesel fuel, but more is added to allow for proper lubrication of the upper cylinder areas. As well as, lubrication of the injectors. >> If water wasnt present in fuel (diesel is more prone than gas) then all >> diesel engine manufacturers wouldnt have need to install fuel/water [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > after every shift yet the water separators still caught water, > and no, the storage tanks were not leaking. I thought since you broke up the original post, that I would point out at this point I was discussing how to MINIMIZE the amount of water collected in the fuel/water separator. NOTE: When I capitalize I am not shouting, I am stressing the word. Please do not misconstrue this. > I have also made cross country trips in 1 ton Ford diesels towing > a 40 foot 5th wheel enclosed car hauler with two cars inside > where we consistently ran the fuel down to one gallon or less > left in the tank with absolutely no ill effects. Just curious, how long did you drive that truck after you did that? Because I can almost guarantee that the fuel in the tank at that level was over 100*F, ya know since CHT runs about 200*F and that fuel being returned to the tank had to be atleast 150*F. Depending on ambient temperature the amount of heat dissipated through the tank could be more or less. >> Running the fuel down to a minimum level pretty much assures >> that you will pick up the water in the bottom of the tank, where as [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Does it occur to you that the fuel in the tank is doing the exact > same thing? Ever hear of a fuel gauge slosh module? I have!! Lets all act shocked now! The only reason for the slosh module is to keep the fuel guage from "bouncing" as the fuel level gets lower in the tank, by averaging the fuel readings over a certain time period. This can also lead to innaccurate fuel readings, and from what I can make of that, you are helping my argument with that statement. The reason I say that is because if your guage is reading just above E, then more than likely, you have less fuel in your tank than that. Especially if you take alot of corners, or drive down very rough roads. Also, the reason for slosh modules is becuase alot of manufacturers took the baffles out of fuel tanks in an effort to reduce manufacturing costs and increase productivity. Someone somewhere decided that an electronic "baffle" was more time effective, thus cheaper, than actually designing baffles into fuel tanks anymore. If you doubt me on this, read this page. Look at Regulations for vehicles less than 10,000 GVW answer #2. http://www.transferflow.com/fuel_tank_regulations.html Might I add that the slosh module has nothing to do with how the fuel acts in the tank. It only effects how the information that the sender gives is interpretted, and thus displayed via the fuel guage. Ford Tech > > Which additives? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > control the burn. Most diesel runs a cetane of about 43, but can vary > usually between 30-60 for highway grade diesel fuel. Umm.. You seem to be describing Cetane both as a hydrocarbon chain -and- as a rating number, which means that you're just regurgitating words from memory without any thought to what is relevant or appropriate. > > Why don't these additives deplete at the nozzle where it's even > > hotter? > > Because at that point in time we dont care. We don't? Why wouldn't we care about what the heated fuel might do to the nozzles while it is waiting for the nozzle to open. If it's going to gum up the fuel pump, certainly it would gum up the nozzle... > They are being injected into the > cylinder and we want them to atomize, and they are already trapped in a > closed enviroment (the combustion chamber), so even if it evaporates, it > wont be lost just vaporized. The fuel doesnt sit at the very tip of the > nozzle, it held behind a poppet valve, What about the fuel in the rail -at- the nozzle soaking up heat like what would happen at a hot shut down. If heat causes the fuel to change properties and gum up a fuel pump, certainly this can happen at the much hotter (relatively) fuel nozzle. > and usually requires about 2,700psi > (but can be as high as 5,000psi depending on the system), to lift the poppet > and expose the fuel to the nozzle end of the injector. And we're also to believe that these physical changes only occur at ambient pressure and will not happen at pressures between 2700 PSI and 5000 PSI in close proximity to the cylinder head. > >>and possible over heating (gumming) of the fuel pump. > > > > "gumming" is not "overheating." > > NO but gumming can lead to overheating as it coats surfaces, and doesnt > allow for heat transfer as effectively. Well, which is it? > > Ever hear someone say that their overheating vehicle was > > "gumming?" > > Nope, but i have heard of sludge buildup and tarnishing of an engine. Have > you ever let a weed eater set in the garage over the winter with fuel in it > that has been there since late July? You have a diesel powered weed eater? > If you have then you have seen this > gumming effect for yourself. I have seen filters on weedeaters so plugged > that they have to be replaced and the carbs dismantled and cleaned. That is > why you dont want to let fuel sit and allow the additives to evaporate. The > warmer the fuel is, the faster the evaporation. Me thinks you are talking about gasoline and gasoline engines. > >> Thanks to the > >> addition of parrafin wax (used to help lubricate the upper cylinder [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > proper lubrication of the upper cylinder areas. As well as, lubrication of > the injectors. They add paraffin wax to diesel fuel do they? Sounds very counter productive. > >> If water wasnt present in fuel (diesel is more prone than gas) then all > >> diesel engine manufacturers wouldnt have need to install fuel/water [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > this point I was discussing how to MINIMIZE the amount of water collected in > the fuel/water separator. But, but, but... there is huge amounts of water in diesel fuel to begin with, your cautions seem to amount to a fart in a wind storm. > NOTE: When I capitalize I am not shouting, I am stressing the word. Please > do not misconstrue this. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Just curious, how long did you drive that truck after you did that? I can't give an exact mileage, I know that it has gone over 100,000 in the 2+ years since I shared to co-driving. > Because > I can almost guarantee that the fuel in the tank at that level was over > 100*F, ya know since CHT runs about 200*F and that fuel being returned to > the tank had to be atleast 150*F. Depending on ambient temperature the > amount of heat dissipated through the tank could be more or less. Do you know what the temperature ranges are in Iraq, Nevada, Arizona, etc.... the temperatures ranges that you are warning about exist as ambient in inhabited places of the world where diesels are very common. How about a tank farm in Texas during summer, do you think the tanks of diesel fuel won't go above 100*F sitting there baking in the Texas sun? > >> Running the fuel down to a minimum level pretty much assures > >> that you will pick up the water in the bottom of the tank, where as [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > in the tank. It only effects how the information that the sender gives is > interpretted, and thus displayed via the fuel guage. You (as usual) miss the point entirely. If slosh modules are needed to accurize fuel gauge readings it's because the fuel in the tank is being violently sloshed when the vehicle is driven making your point about picking up water from the bottom of the tank meaningless because NOTHING segregates itself to the bottom of the tank to begin with DUE TO the sloshing that naturally occurs while the vehicle is in motion. >> > Which additives? >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > regurgitating words from memory without any thought to what is > relevant or appropriate. OK, what about the Cetane ratings dont you understand? The higher the number the faster the diesel burns, which means the higher the Cetane content in the fuel. I never said it was a hydrocarbon, personally I dont care what the formulation for Cetane is. I know what it does and why it is there, and I dont need to know anymore than that. >> > Why don't these additives deplete at the nozzle where it's even >> > hotter? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If it's going to gum up the fuel pump, certainly it would gum up > the nozzle... As I stated below the fuel is only stationary in the injector long enough for the injection event to take place, otherwise any leftover fuel drains and the rail is open to free flow around the injector.. So we are talking a matter of milliseconds that the fuel is stationary in the injector.. >> They are being injected into the >> cylinder and we want them to atomize, and they are already trapped in a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > fuel to change properties and gum up a fuel pump, certainly this > can happen at the much hotter (relatively) fuel nozzle. You are starting to show that you dont know how the HEUI system works. Because as soon as injection stops, the remaining fuel (if any) is open to drain. It doesnt hold the fuel in the injector. Once the fuel is in the rail, its in a enclosed space and pressurized, so at this point the fuel shouldn't separate or evaporate. That is why I keep talking about the fuel tank. >> and usually requires about 2,700psi >> (but can be as high as 5,000psi depending on the system), to lift the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > at ambient pressure and will not happen at pressures between > 2700 PSI and 5000 PSI in close proximity to the cylinder head. WHAT?? Now you are putting words in to my mouth. Did I not just say that we want the fuel to atomize during injection into the cylinder?? Because I thought I did. Not to mention your statement would go back to the beginning of my post here about not caring if the fuel changes its state during injection, because we want it to. >> >>and possible over heating (gumming) of the fuel pump. >> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Well, which is it? Again someone with a minimal amount of common sense would realize that the (gumming) would refer back to what was causing the overheating. >> > Ever hear someone say that their overheating vehicle was >> > "gumming?" [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You have a diesel powered weed eater? I am not even goin to justify that amount of insanity. >> If you have then you have seen this >> gumming effect for yourself. I have seen filters on weedeaters so plugged [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Me thinks you are talking about gasoline and gasoline engines. I have seen it happen in diesels as well. Just like gasoline, diesel fuel contains an "additive package", and in that package is all kinds of things, some of which is detergents to help clean the system. The longer the fuel sits the more the package depletes. It also happens the same way when you heat the diesel fuel. The hotter the fuel gets the quicker the "package" is depleted. >> >> Thanks to the >> >> addition of parrafin wax (used to help lubricate the upper cylinder [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > They add paraffin wax to diesel fuel do they? Sounds very counter > productive. Why do you think they have to add anti-geling agents to diesel fuel in cold weather? Its to help keep the paraffin wax suspended in the fuel, and not solidifying. >> >> If water wasnt present in fuel (diesel is more prone than gas) then >> >> all [quoted text clipped - 86 lines] > itself to the bottom of the tank to begin with DUE TO the > sloshing that naturally occurs while the vehicle is in motion. > OK, what about the Cetane ratings dont you understand? Apparently a lot less than you. Cetane is a hydrocarbon chain molecule formally known as Hexadecane, it has a cetane rating of 100 and as such, is used as a benchmark much the same as octane is used for gasoline. Point being is; you cited cetane as an -additive- that would be "rapidly depleted" if and when diesel fuel were warmed above some imagined temperature. Thing is, Cetane is not necessarily a component of diesel fuel to begin with, it is simply a hydrocarbon that ignites rather easily and is used as a reference to a scale. > The higher the number > the faster the diesel burns, which means the higher the Cetane content in > the fuel. Prove that Cetane is a component of diesel fuel, I will be happy to show that other compoinds are used to adjust the cetane rating of diesel fuel. > I never said it was a hydrocarbon, Because you didn't know, and you don't know. > personally I dont care what the > formulation for Cetane is. I know what it does and why it is there, and I > dont need to know anymore than that. How can you know that something is there and why it's there when you totally misuse the word to begin with? > >> > Why don't these additives deplete at the nozzle where it's even > >> > hotter? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > As I stated below the fuel is only stationary in the injector long enough > for the injection event to take place, Horse sh.t. What happens when a hot engine is shut off? Where does the fuel go? Are you claiming that Ford P$Ds magically evacuate all fuel from the rail? > otherwise any leftover fuel drains > and the rail is open to free flow around the injector.. So we are talking a > matter of milliseconds that the fuel is stationary in the injector.. You can't think past the end of your nose. Shut of a hot engine and the fuel is there to cook, the fuel temperature will increase due to heat soak and it will increase above those "the sky is falling" temperatures you keep claiming. > > What about the fuel in the rail -at- the nozzle soaking up heat > > like what would happen at a hot shut down. If heat causes the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > shouldn't separate or evaporate. That is why I keep talking about the fuel > tank. Where is the rail? Is it outside the engine compartment? Maybe it's inside the HVAC where the A/C can blow cold air on it. Any other fantasies you'd care to share? > > And we're also to believe that these physical changes only occur > > at ambient pressure and will not happen at pressures between > > 2700 PSI and 5000 PSI in close proximity to the cylinder head. > > WHAT?? Now you are putting words in to my mouth. No, you are tripping on yours. > Did I not just say that we > want the fuel to atomize during injection into the cylinder?? Because I > thought I did. Not to mention your statement would go back to the beginning > of my post here about not caring if the fuel changes its state during > injection, because we want it to. Again, what is so different about a temperature rise in the fuel tank that will cause rapid depletion of additives that somehow doesn't exist/occur on top of the engine in the fuel plumbing? > >> >>and possible over heating (gumming) of the fuel pump. > >> > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Again someone with a minimal amount of common sense would realize that the > (gumming) would refer back to what was causing the overheating. Your first statement was that heating was gumming. Your second statement was that gumming can lead to overheating. Got a third whopper? (did I just spell 'backpedal' w-h-o-p-p-e-r?) Why doesn't this gumming and overheating happen in a standard run of the mill Stanadyne mechanical injection pump that is engine mounted and subject to a lot more heat than the 100* you claim will cause such problems? > > You have a diesel powered weed eater? > > I am not even goin to justify that amount of insanity. You brought it up. > >> If you have then you have seen this > >> gumming effect for yourself. I have seen filters on weedeaters so plugged [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I have seen it happen in diesels as well. Oh, so you -were- talking about gasoline and gasoline engines. Weren't you just complaining that this was strictly a diesel discussion? > Just like gasoline, diesel fuel > contains an "additive package", and in that package is all kinds of things, > some of which is detergents to help clean the system. The longer the fuel > sits the more the package depletes. It also happens the same way when you > heat the diesel fuel. The hotter the fuel gets the quicker the "package" is > depleted. Ah, yes... here we go with additives again <rolls eyes>, and heating the fuel (even though it's been done for about 100 years). > >> Yes there is already some in diesel fuel, but more is added to allow for > >> proper lubrication of the upper cylinder areas. As well as, lubrication [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > weather? Its to help keep the paraffin wax suspended in the fuel, and not > solidifying. Well gee, if they didn't "add" the paraffin wax to begin with, they wouldn't need to add anti-jelling agents to counter act it. Hmmm... I see a conspiracy. Or, maybe they -don't- ADD paraffin, maybe it happens to occur naturally as part of the HC chain. > > I can't give an exact mileage, I know that it has gone over > > 100,000 in the 2+ years since I shared to co-driving. <Phil has no comment> > >> Because > >> I can almost guarantee that the fuel in the tank at that level was over [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > summer, do you think the tanks of diesel fuel won't go above > > 100*F sitting there baking in the Texas sun? <Phil has no comment> > > You (as usual) miss the point entirely. > > If slosh modules are needed to accurize fuel gauge readings it's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > itself to the bottom of the tank to begin with DUE TO the > > sloshing that naturally occurs while the vehicle is in motion. <no comment from Phil> > Only reason I replied to this thread is because it was a DIESEL question, > unless someone can refute my knowledge about diesels, can we just drop [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Ford Tech Ok ANYONE with questions as to why you shouldn't run your tank low on your vehicle should read Chapter 17 of the book called: "Medum/Heavy Duty Truck Engines, Fuel, & Computerized Management Systems" "1st Edition published in 1999" "2nd Edition published in 2004" Authored by Sean Bennett If you dont have a copy in your local library, see if your library has a loaner program. They should be able to get it through this program, as I know the Pittsburg State University Technical Library is involved in this program. Also 2nd Edition has the EXACT same information in Chpt 17, as the 1st Edition. The page numbers will vary as information in OTHER sections of the book have changed with different systems being introduced in to the market. Chapter 17 deals with "Diesel Fuel and Alternates". It has a section in this chapter that deals with "Fuel Storage, Fuel Deterioration, and Performance". The section in the book that I have referred you to, only REINFORCES the points that I have made to you in this forum about why you should NOT run your fuel tank low. It is NOT an "old wives tale", infact it includes a tech tip (both editions) that states, "It is good practice to keep fuel tanks FULL. This keeps moisture-laden air out of the tanks." It further into the section covers points that deal with hot weather, and overheating of the fuel. As to Mr. Cuda's question about where the fuel rail is, most diesel engines run the fuel rail inside the head via bored passages. The only exception that I can think ok (not saying its the only one, but just the only one I can pull off the top of my head) is the Cummins B Series 5.9L. Now remember I am talking about COMMON RAIL fuel injection systems on diesel engines. I am not talking about gear driven pumps that run an individual line to each injector straight from the pump. Those kinds of systems are so outdated its not even funny. I just checked FMC DEALER and the 6.4L will continue using the HEUI system as well, only addition will be the fuel cooler added to the fuel return line on top of the engine. Dont question my dedication to the trade. I have the knowledge, and the info. I discussed Mr. AARCUDA69062's scenario (the pullin the trailer with a gallon of fuel in the tank), with a very good friend of mine that is a master diesel/auto tech, and a DIESEL instructor at one of the top 4 schools in the U.S. for Diesel techs (Pittsburg State University), as well as a part-time advance trouble shooter for a local Freightliner dealership. He only reinforced my thoughts on the fuel tank acting as a "heat exchanger" for the fuel returning from the heads. He further went on to say that I was probably wrong on the temperature of the fuel left in the tank, saying "it was probably hotter than that" when I said that it was probably atleast 150*F in the tank. Now, if the fuel tank is acting as a "heat exchanger" for the fuel, and your fuel pump has to pump fuel in excess of 150*F, then the effective temperature of the whole fuel pump is increased above that due to the amount of heat created by the windings in the pump, and the friction of the fuel against the parts of the pump (that would be fluid friction, hydraulics 101), and temp of the pump is probably running around 200*F. This excess heating of the pump, if done often enough, can and will cause premature failure of the fuel pump, and can cause premature wear of the injectors. So, by telling someone that it does NO HARM WHAT-SO-EVER to run their tank to empty before refilling every time, is COMPLETELY ludicris. It DOES harm the system, and CAN change the properties of the fuel in the system. FORD TECH > Ok ANYONE with questions as to why you shouldn't run your tank low on your > vehicle should read Chapter 17 of the book called: > "Medum/Heavy Duty Truck Engines, Fuel, & Computerized Management Systems" > "1st Edition published in 1999" "2nd Edition published in 2004" > Authored by Sean Bennett Forgot to include this- ISBN 0-8273-8574-9, that is for the hardcover edition, it doesnt give me one for the softcover edition. > If you dont have a copy in your local library, see if your library has a > loaner program. They should be able to get it through this program, as I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > sections of the book have changed with different systems being introduced > in to the market. It's not a set amount of reserve, it's just approximate to remind you to fill up soon. > On my '06 F-250 6.0 Diesel with the 8 foot bed I have a 38 gal. fuel tank. > Twice now when low on fuel, the "Low Fuel" warning light came on. Each [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > reserve, but I could not find any information in the owners manual > regarding the reserve capacity? Thanx for any info on this, Danny. |
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