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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / March 2007

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Puking trans fluid

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Spdloader - 25 Mar 2007 05:40 GMT
'99 F350 7.3L SuperCrew 4X4 Dually.
120,000 on vehicle, 35,000 on trans replaced three years ago.

Backing anything (boat, car trailer) up my driveway, about a 50ft 10deg.
grade, causes the trans to puke out fluid from the inspection cover.

One to two pints, and only in reverse. Fluid isn't even luke warm to the
touch, so it's not a heat issue.
Doesn't matter if it's a short trip or a 15 minute one.

I'm thinking bad pump seal, or front seal, or both.

Anyone with any experience with this?

Ideas?

Gonna check with the dealership Monday to see if they'd consider warranty
fix---it's only 1 month out.

Spdloader
SnoMan - 25 Mar 2007 13:46 GMT
>Backing anything (boat, car trailer) up my driveway, about a 50ft 10deg.
>grade, causes the trans to puke out fluid from the inspection cover.
>
>One to two pints, and only in reverse. Fluid isn't even luke warm to the
>touch, so it's not a heat issue.
>Doesn't matter if it's a short trip or a 15 minute one.

Actually it is a heat issue. The "puked" fliud may appear cold but
when you are in a hard converter stall trying to back a heavy load up
a hill the internal torque converter temps climb very fast and it is
possible to "flash" some oil/fliud to boil and cause tranny to spit
some out. The high low RPM torque of your 7.3 is not a assest on such
a stall and can cook tranny is short order. (GM put a really deep
reverse ratio in their Alison to help prevent this) How do you fix
this? If you are running big tires and stock axle ratio's you are not
helping yourself with this and you might consider using low range (if
it is a 4x4) with front hubs unlocked to back a load up a incline any
distance. This is not a rare problem.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
lugnut - 25 Mar 2007 14:38 GMT
>'99 F350 7.3L SuperCrew 4X4 Dually.
>120,000 on vehicle, 35,000 on trans replaced three years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>Spdloader

Unfortunately, have seen a few that do that.  It seems to be
a problem with cooling the reverse clutch pack.  In my bread
and butter business, we have had several that push it out
the dipstick tube onto the right exhaust manifold and catch
fire.  AFIK, the only cure is a complete rebuild.  I also
understand there are some mods that should take care of the
problem.  There never seems to be any problem in the forward
selections - just reverse.  I have never been able to get
hands on any documents but, I understand Ford is aware of
the problem and there may by service info out on it.  FWIW,
I had one of them that caught fire this way after the 4th
trans replacement with factory remans from Ford.  Truck only
had 31K miles total at time of fire.  It was backing a
trailered Bobcat up a muddy grade in 4WD at the time it
puked.

Lugnut
Spdloader - 25 Mar 2007 15:53 GMT
>>'99 F350 7.3L SuperCrew 4X4 Dually.
>>120,000 on vehicle, 35,000 on trans replaced three years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
>
> Lugnut

This trans was replaced with a Ford Reman unit exactly three years ago. It
has done it almost from the start, but it wasn't as bad as it is now.
Spdloader
Roy - 25 Mar 2007 15:19 GMT
> '99 F350 7.3L SuperCrew 4X4 Dually.
> 120,000 on vehicle, 35,000 on trans replaced three years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Ideas?

This happens a lot with auto's when in reverse. Although my experience is
with dodge and plowing snow with some towing, when backing up you can watch
the temp climb right up the guage. What has dropped the temps some is a
"double deep" pan. Don't know if that will solve the problem, but it should
help lower the fluid temp. You might try low range when in reverse as well.
Spdloader - 25 Mar 2007 15:58 GMT
>> '99 F350 7.3L SuperCrew 4X4 Dually.
>> 120,000 on vehicle, 35,000 on trans replaced three years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> should help lower the fluid temp. You might try low range when in reverse
> as well.

What if the vehicle is "overnight cold", you start it, immediately back it
up the driveway, and it pukes.

Is it still a heat issue?

Using low range doesn't affect it.

It has an auxiliary trans cooler on it for what it's worth also.

It never did it with the original transmission. The trans was replaced
because the overdrive went out of the original one.

Spdloader
Roy - 25 Mar 2007 16:29 GMT
>>> '99 F350 7.3L SuperCrew 4X4 Dually.
>>> 120,000 on vehicle, 35,000 on trans replaced three years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> What if the vehicle is "overnight cold", you start it, immediately back it
> up the driveway, and it pukes.

Huh? Immediately?

> Is it still a heat issue?

I wouldn't think so, not from if it is happening cold.

> Using low range doesn't affect it.

Low range should affect it.

> It has an auxiliary trans cooler on it for what it's worth also.
>
> It never did it with the original transmission. The trans was replaced
> because the overdrive went out of the original one.

Imho it is time to take it in. You aren't geting any codes are you?

> Spdloader
Spdloader - 25 Mar 2007 18:03 GMT
>>>> '99 F350 7.3L SuperCrew 4X4 Dually.
>>>> 120,000 on vehicle, 35,000 on trans replaced three years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>
>> Spdloader

Yep, it happens no matter how long it's been running.
I'm not getting any codes. I'm taking it in tonight.

I'm done worrying about it.

Spdloader
SnoMan - 25 Mar 2007 16:29 GMT
>Using low range doesn't affect it.

using low range should prevent it because a lot less torque is needed
from engine and a lot less heat is generated in tranny. If it is worse
with this tranny than original it is possible that you have a torque
converter with a different stal speed and ratio that is making more
heat than before. They do make after market low stall speed converters
for diesels that run cooler that yoou might consider too.  
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
lugnut - 26 Mar 2007 12:49 GMT
>>> '99 F350 7.3L SuperCrew 4X4 Dually.
>>> 120,000 on vehicle, 35,000 on trans replaced three years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>What if the vehicle is "overnight cold", you start it, immediately back it
>up the driveway, and it pukes.

The one I mentioned earlier had been sitting over 6 hours on
a January day at a construction site.  Vehicle was started
and had been running including warmup idle under 3 minutes
when "smoke" was observed from under front.  It has actually
been moving under one minute - just long enough to get the
exhaust manifolds hot enough to ignite the fluid.  The truck
had all the guages and an alarm system that covered trans
temp.  There were no observeable indications there was a
problem.  On teardown, the reverse clutch pack had
indications of high temperature.  No other part of the trans
was anything other than excellent condition looking "brand
new".  The fire damage was repaired and the trans rebuilt in
the back corner of the dealership with "some modifications".
The technician who built it seemd to think the problem was a
cross leak in ght valve body causing the trans to have a
forward selection partially engaged which would result in
overloading the reverse pack.  The engine, of course, has
plenty of poer to overcome this minor nuisance condition.
The valve bodies and cases on these transmissions are
extremely sensitive to proper torque and torque procedure.
The case is easily warped in the area above the valve body
preventing them from sealing if not done "by the book".
Many of the trans techs with a good record on building these
transmission recommend torquing the VB to max end of range
and letting it sit 1/2 hour or so. They then mark the
capscrews, loosen and re-torque the VB to make sure it is
fully seated and torqued with compressed gaskets. Again, I
have not been able to get the Ford paperwork, if any, that
may be out there to see exactly what they may know.

That truck has been back at it's job now for over 100k miles
with no further trans problems.   I still believe the
transmissions are setup too "soft" to please drivers who
want a truck that is just as smooth as the cars they drive
which are also probably mushier than they should be for
durability.  

Lugnut

>Is it still a heat issue?

I do not believe this is a generalized overheat problem.
See above.

>Using low range doesn't affect it.

I don't think so.  It appears to be a localized internal
problem.

>It has an auxiliary trans cooler on it for what it's worth also.

I don't think the number of auxilliary coolers has anything
to do with it.

>It never did it with the original transmission. The trans was replaced
>because the overdrive went out of the original one.
>
>Spdloader
SnoMan - 25 Mar 2007 16:26 GMT
>This happens a lot with auto's when in reverse. Although my experience is
>with dodge and plowing snow with some towing, when backing up you can watch
>the temp climb right up the guage. What has dropped the temps some is a
>"double deep" pan. Don't know if that will solve the problem, but it should
>help lower the fluid temp. You might try low range when in reverse as well.

This is all relative to torque applied, cooling and overall gear ratio
because the taller the effective ratio to drive the more torque that
has to be applied to it and routed by tranny and automatics are there
least efficent in the stall condition and when the engine is cranking
out a lot of torque and vehcile speed is very slow in reverse and lot
of the energy is being converted to heat. THis is generallu more of a
problem with a diesel because they tend to have tall gears because of
limited RPM range. Like I stated eariler, GM wisely used a 4.49 rev
gear ratio in the ally so that there is no need to build up a lot of
torque and heat to move a load in reverse plus deeper gears getts it
off stall sooner so it runs cooler (this is not a anti ford statement
but rather than why you never hear about ally's pukng in reverse). You
can modifit rear clutch for more grip and that will help some but if
you are fighting a heavy load and a tall effective ration that you are
depending on 350 or 450 ft lbs of engine torque and more to overcome
this load you are going to cook it sooner are latter on such a low
speed backup. Most gas engine do not produce as much torque in stall
so it takes longer to cook it. I am not sure of your setup but if you
are running a 3.54 or 3.73 with larger than stock tires you are
pushing the envelope. A bigger cooler will not help much in this kind
of flash heating but deepr axle gear or small diameter tires would
reduce the torque load on tranny. This problem is not only with
diesels and automatics because more thyan one owner with a stick has
roasted a clutch trying to start on load in a taller gear while trying
to use the 500 or 600 ft lbs of torque they have.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Roy - 25 Mar 2007 17:58 GMT
>>This happens a lot with auto's when in reverse. Although my experience is
>>with dodge and plowing snow with some towing, when backing up you can
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> problem with a diesel because they tend to have tall gears because of
> limited RPM range.

There isn't a heck of a load backing up with a mt truck. The temp will still
climb even with 4:10 rears. As I said the double deep pan brought temps down
to a acceptable level. A tight tc might raise temps a bunch after pulling a
grade with a load but he is experiencing this on start up.
Spdloader - 28 Mar 2007 23:27 GMT
> '99 F350 7.3L SuperCrew 4X4 Dually.
> 120,000 on vehicle, 35,000 on trans replaced three years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Spdloader

The front pump seal and torque converter seals are both leaking. No other
problems found with the transmission, but there are others, to which I will
start another thread. See Hubs.

Spdloader
lugnut - 29 Mar 2007 03:05 GMT
>> '99 F350 7.3L SuperCrew 4X4 Dually.
>> 120,000 on vehicle, 35,000 on trans replaced three years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
>Spdloader

I thought the front seal problem had been addressed several
years back  with a seal improvement and enlarging the
drainback hole.  The problem usually occured when there was
a bit of wear on the pump bushing or the seal had been
disturbed as the converter was inserted.  The spring on the
back side of the seal would tend to get displaced.  This
often happened if the converter slipped forward out of the
pump while the trans was being installed.  It is not often a
pump seal - I assume your are talking about the pump housing
oring - leaks if properly installed and the pump torqued
into the case.  If thesde are the leak points, you shopuld
not even have to teardown the trans unless you just want to
freshen the seals.  It is not likely that anything else is
wrong based on what you describe.  Also, I would not expect
these problems at 35K miles on a proper rebuild.

Lugnut
Spdloader - 29 Mar 2007 03:34 GMT
>>> '99 F350 7.3L SuperCrew 4X4 Dually.
>>> 120,000 on vehicle, 35,000 on trans replaced three years ago.
[quoted text clipped - 42 lines]
>
> Lugnut

I am talking about the pump housing O-ring, and the seal around the torque
converter shaft.

The trans was replaced with a "Ford Factory Reman" unit, 34,189 miles ago,
and 3 years, and six weeks ago. The six weeks out is why they are telling me
they won't help me with the repair. Although the leak started soon after
replacement, but my local stealer wasn't able to find it.
I have it at another dealer with a much better reputation now, but I'll be
footing the bill, it appears.
Spdloader
David M - 29 Mar 2007 10:18 GMT
> I am talking about the pump housing O-ring, and the seal around the torque
> converter shaft.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> footing the bill, it appears.
> Spdloader

Which stealer didn't help you?  (you don't have to name them, just the
first letter or two of their name).  Just filing for future reference,
since we're in the same neighborhood.

Signature

David M  (dmacchiarolo)
http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled
T/S 53
sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14  has been up 23 days 21:31

Spdloader - 29 Mar 2007 21:01 GMT
> Which stealer didn't help you?  (you don't have to name them, just the
> first letter or two of their name).  Just filing for future reference,
> since we're in the same neighborhood.

It was Crescent, Dave.

It's at Ciener now, at least they have tried to help out.

Spdloader
David M - 30 Mar 2007 01:32 GMT
>> Which stealer didn't help you?  (you don't have to name them, just the
>> first letter or two of their name).  Just filing for future reference,
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Spdloader

Dang... that's where I bought mama's Explorer.  So far, no issues with
them, actually they have done well.   Haven't dealt much with C/W,
although they're not too much farther away, but people say they're fair.

Crecent had a GT sitting in their showroom last summer while we were
buying the Explorer.  They wouldn't let me drive it, (can't imagine why
they wouldn't let me drive a $160,000 car) but we at least sat in it.  A
week later it was sold.

Signature

David M  (dmacchiarolo)
http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled
T/S 53
sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14  has been up 24 days 12:40

Matt Macchiarolo - 30 Mar 2007 02:04 GMT
At the little hole in the wall dealer where we found the Excursion in Jan 06
(last one in Michigan with diesel and quad captain's chairs) there was room
for exactly one car in the showroom...and it was a bright yellow GT. I asked
the sales manager how they scored one, he said it just showed up one day,
they drove it onto the floor and it was parked there ever since. I got to
sit in it, that pretty much decided for me that I wasn't going to get one,
it wasn't designed for 6'4" drivers. Damn door would have scalped me if I
didn't put my head down. Well, that and the price...anything I pay that much
for better have an attached garage.

> Crecent had a GT sitting in their showroom last summer while we were
> buying the Explorer.  They wouldn't let me drive it, (can't imagine why
> they wouldn't let me drive a $160,000 car) but we at least sat in it.  A
> week later it was sold.
Spdloader - 30 Mar 2007 03:18 GMT
We shopped there for my wife's Explorer in '04, but Thomasville really
wanted to sell a truck, and Crescent didn't.......

They were a much better outfit when Mr. and Mrs. English ran it.

Spdloader

>>> Which stealer didn't help you?  (you don't have to name them, just the
>>> first letter or two of their name).  Just filing for future reference,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> they wouldn't let me drive a $160,000 car) but we at least sat in it.  A
> week later it was sold.

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