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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / September 2003excursion - Diesel vs. gas
I am looking at an excursion. The salesmen are more concerned about me buying something the same day than giving me good information. Where can I find some good comparisons between diesel and gas engines for this SUV? Any personal experiences? Thanks Diesel: Around $5,000 more expensive More noise More stink More expensive oil changes Far fewer fuel stations that carry diesel Better heavy (over 10,000 lbs) towing power Tends to get a few more miles per gallon fuel mileage, your mileage may vary... Gas V10: Around $5,000 less then the diesel option Much qucker and more responsive than a diesel Less noise Less Stink Cheaper oil changes Gas at every service station Very effective for towing up to 10,000 lbs There ya go... > I am looking at an excursion. The salesmen are more concerned about me > buying something the same day than giving me good information. Where can I > find some good comparisons between diesel and gas engines for this SUV? > Any personal experiences? > > Thanks > I am looking at an excursion. The salesmen are more concerned about me > buying something the same day than giving me good information. Where can I > find some good comparisons between diesel and gas engines for this SUV? > Any personal experiences? Go with the diesel if you can get one. They have a huge amount of power and good fuel economy. We get ~13 - 15mpg in the city and in the low 20's on the highway. Diesel is easy to get especially if you drive a lot (currently cheaper then gasoline) on the interstates and tow considerably better then gas engines due to the low end torque. They are designed to have a 300k mile life span in fact the 7.3l Power Stroke is the international harvester T444D engine that you see in small busses and dump trucks. If you want to ask specific questions go over to the diesel stop, which is a owners group. They can answer any question you may have from simple to complex. good luck, mark http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=ubb37 <---general engine group http://forums.thedieselstop.com/ubbthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=UBB9 <--- for diesel excursions No brainer...diesel. Go here : www.thedieselstop.com (forums) to get real information from actual owners of Superduties and X's and avoid "advice" from Windstar and Ranger owners... > I am looking at an excursion. The salesmen are more concerned about me > buying something the same day than giving me good information. Where can I > find some good comparisons between diesel and gas engines for this SUV? > Any personal experiences? > > Thanks > Where can I find some good comparisons between diesel and gas engines for this SUV? > Any personal experience Q to inlaws: What mileage do you get from your V-10 A: 9 (!!!!!!) in town Q: What about 'highway' ? A: 10 (!!!) Yikes The worst our F350 PSD gets around town is 14 and up around 19 on the highway. It also has a 40 gal tank so the range on the highway is remarkable. Diesel here is 35 cents a gallon less than gas so that helps pay down the extra diesel cost quickly @ $ 14.00 per tank. BTW, I do my own oil changes for about 25 bucks..not much more than the 'Quikee Lube" places. The Ford dealer wants 70 bucks...nawww R. If you are going to make comparisons, you should compare like to like. If you compare your home done oil change to an oil change at a shop, what the hell have you compared? The fact remains that 6 dollars worth of oil and 3 dollars for a filter on the gas engine is just shy of 1/3 the cost for the consumables for your diesel engine oil change. Diesel fuel here today is $1.73 per gallon, gasoline is $1.83 per gallon, that is only 10 cents per gallon difference. $4.00 per 40 gallon purchase. Fuel filter every 15,000 on the diesel, every 100,000 on the gas. The more you compare them LIKE for LIKE the more years it takes to pay off on the initial cost of the diesel engine. If you are not doing most of your miles towing a large trailer, the only advantage the diesel has is a few more miles per gallon fuel mileage and a lot of other more expensive and less comfortable disadvantages. If I were that worried about mileage I would not be driving my big guzzling vehicle gas or diesel in the first place. If you like driving with your windows down the diesel is much harder on your ears and nose. Besides I have yet to have a diesel pickup or sport utility pulling a trailer out-pull my gas 460 towing 9000 lbs up a steep pass! The diesel damn sure can't take off quicker or go faster then the same rig with the 460 or V-10 gas engine. If the gas engine last until the body is a rattle trap over 200,000 miles, what good is that extra 100,000 miles on the diesel engine? > > Where can I find some good comparisons between diesel and gas engines for > this SUV? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > R. Not to mention the warranty goes on to 100,000 miles on the PSD ($100.00 detuctable) after 36,000 miles. Unless it has changed since I got my 99 F350 PSD. > I am looking at an excursion. The salesmen are more concerned about me > buying something the same day than giving me good information. Where can I > find some good comparisons between diesel and gas engines for this SUV? > Any personal experiences? > > Thanks Neither, get a Honda and stay in hotels with the money you save! > I am looking at an excursion. The salesmen are more concerned about me > buying something the same day than giving me good information. Where can I > find some good comparisons between diesel and gas engines for this SUV? > Any personal experiences? > > Thanks Heeee heeee, Mr Apples and oranges apparently hasnt had a real pull test vs a diesel with 9000 lbs attached. No way in heck youd out pull a Powerstroke with 9k on a hill. Even if you came close, youd suck up 5x more gas doing it at 3000 more rpm. PS- Diesel here is $1.25 and gas is $1.86. Thats a huge difference.... RBH > Neither, get a Honda and stay in hotels with the money you save! > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 09/23/2003 No way in heck you'd out pull a Powerstroke with 9k on a hill; Even if you came close HEE HEE? What's the matter you can't decide whether it could be done or not? Well you couldn't do it but if you did you would use a lot of gas. Sheese Tell Ya what, I've pulled enough steep western passes with my rig, I know what it will do and how many smoke choking over rated diesels (all three brands) I've walked away from on these passes, as they slowly smoke & clunk their way up the pass. Bring your clunking, stinking Powerstroke and your 9000 lb trailer out west and I'll show you how a hot running gas guzzling clean quite 460 will put your Powerstroke to shame with or without a load... Apparently you've never really had a pull test. > Heeee heeee, > Mr Apples and oranges apparently hasnt had a real pull test vs a diesel with [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 09/23/2003 This is just idiotic rambling.... > HEE HEE? > What's the matter you can't decide whether it could be done or not? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Apparently you've never really had a pull test. > This is just idiotic rambling.... > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Pulling a load up a hill at high speed is simply a matter of horsepower - max torque does not matter. His 460 may very well have more HP than a powerstroke in which case it will a pull the load up the hill faster. OTOH, he may have to be running at 5000 rpm's to do it. However, if the hill was 20,000 miles long, the 460 would be broken and the powerstroke wouldn't even be broken in! -rob > > This is just idiotic rambling.... > > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > -rob EXACTLY!!! I couldn't have stated it better myself. Diesels do have their advantages, I myself am considering one for my next truck. But they do have plenty of disadvantages too. Some of you "diesel guys" need to pull your heads out of your a.ses! The diesel only truly "shines" (blatantly outperforms) a big gas engine in a very narrow niche of applications. That is either full time heavy (OVER 10,000 POUNDS) load towing, or very hard high (OVER 250,000 MILE) fleet type use. Even then you still have to put up with the EXTRA noise, smell, location of diesel dealers, and higher maintenance cost. The longevity question really only comes into play if you intend to keep your truck once the body has become a rattle trap. I have driven two 460 Ford trucks with a fair amount of 9,000 pound towing to 240,000 miles and 196,000 miles. The trucks were in overall worse shape (rattling, window seals, squeaks, etc) than the engines when I sold them still running strong... Some day a diesel might be as refined, clean, quiet, snappy, responsive, quick and powerful as the proven 460, or the "replacement" V-10 but not today. More idiotic bullshit: > > > This is just idiotic rambling.... > > > [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > quick and powerful as the proven 460, or the "replacement" V-10 but not > today. Yea? Well ramble off some facts! Or did your mouth outrun the truth yet again? OH That's RIGHT! You don't have any facts that support you ignorant bullheaded narrow minded position! All of your misinformed ideas don't change the facts... You have the right to remain IGNORANT! Carry On! > More idiotic bullshit: > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > quick and powerful as the proven 460, or the "replacement" V-10 but not > > today. > More idiotic bullshit: [snip] You said it! "Pulling a load up a hill at high speed is simply a matter of horsepower - max torque does not matter." Another guy who slept through physics class. "His 460 may very well have more HP than a powerstroke in which case it will a pull the load up the hill faster." Then you could get a formula racer -- lots of horses, very little torque -- and pull at 150 mph, right? LOL! =`:^D -- frosty >>More idiotic bullshit: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Another guy who slept through physics class. Clearly you *failed* physics. I am a mechanical engineer with a ton of physics under my belt. Yes a 900hp formula one car will pull a load up a hill much faster than a 300hp diesel - assuming it had a close enough ratio trans to keep it on the boil. However, the engine would't last very long in the process. Horsepower is defined a force*velocity. Torque is essentially just a force. The force required to pull a trailer up a hill is constant (neglecting air resistance and friction) wheather you are going 50mph or 100mph. It is the velocity portion of the equation that requires the HP. I can take a model airplane motor and gear it down to put out 1000ft-lbs of torque and it will pull the trailer up the hill - albeit very slowly. It is the HP that determines the speed at which the force can be applied- like it or not! As another example, you could take a 150hp diesel and a 150hp motorcycle engine, put a CVT behind them (continuously variable transmission) and you could not tell the difference between the two in any situation! (as long as you couldn't hear it!) Again, the motorcycle engine wouldn't last very long. The advantages of diesels are their longevity, fuel economy and their very FLAT torque curve which makes pulling loads easier. Rob Munach, PE Excel Engineering > "His 460 may very well have more HP than a > powerstroke in which case it will a pull the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -- frosty >>> More idiotic bullshit: >> You said it! >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> -- frosty > Clearly you *failed* physics. I am a mechanical engineer with a ton of > physics under my belt. Yes a 900hp formula one car will pull a load [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > take a model airplane motor and gear it down to put out 1000ft-lbs of > torque and it will pull the trailer up the hill - albeit very slowly. Sure, and Aristotle could move a planet with a long enough lever, but pulling "very slowly" isn't what this thread is about. (BTW, my 'formula' reference was misguided, as comparing 900hp to 300hp is meaningless. I just couldn't come up with a PC term for "rice racer.") > It is the HP that determines the speed at which the force can be > applied- like it or not! You're right: it's horsepower that's doing the work; torque is just applying a force. But in the context of the original thread, it seemed the poster thought that a high-horsepower, low-torque engine was better for pulling heavy loads. As in, "Your PSD only makes 250 horses; my Acura has 300, so I can out pull you!" which is a laughable proposition. Horsepower is NOT a substitute for torque. Given two motors with equal hp rating, expect the one with more torque to pull better. > As another example, you could take a 150hp diesel and a 150hp > motorcycle engine, put a CVT behind them (continuously variable > transmission) and you could not tell the difference between the two > in any situation! (as long as you couldn't hear it!) Again, the > motorcycle engine wouldn't last very long. Perfect example to illustrate my point, thanks. Yes, you can increase torque that way, but only at the expense of additional RPM. You can't get something for nothing! Say my diesel generates 440 pound feet of torque while turning 1800 rpm. This works out to 150 horsepower, and moves my F250 down the road at 60 miles an hour. Your hypothetical motorcycle engine generates a fraction of that torque. Let's pick a number, say, one fifth. So, you gear it down five times, and, by mechanical advantage, multiply your 88 pound feet to 440. You also make the same 150 hp, but to do so, you must turn five times as fast: 9,000 rpm. Let's put you in a similar 7,000 pound truck powered by the motorcycle motor. Same horsepower, same load, same 60 mph. Now, we come to a hill. Since my diesel, at 1800 rpm, is just starting to come into its torque curve, when I press on the go pedal, I speed up. Your engine, however, is on the down slope of its torque curve, and is spinning as fast as it can. Which truck slows down, and which truck pulls ahead? Or, suppose we stay on the flat, and drag race. When I redline the PSD at 3300 rpm, going 110 miles an hour, am I going to see you smiling at me through my side window, even with me, while turning 16,500 rpm? I would say there are at least two situations in which you _can_ tell the difference between these two 150 hp motors. Back to the original quote: >> "His 460 may very well have more HP than a >> powerstroke in which case it will a pull the >> load up the hill faster." If the gasser has less torque, it's creating more horses by virtue of lower gearing and higher RPM. The truck won't pull faster if the engine can't spin any faster. > The advantages of diesels are their longevity, fuel economy and their > very FLAT torque curve which makes pulling loads easier. > > Rob Munach, PE > Excel Engineering And, MORE torque. -- frosty <<BIG SNIP>> The problem with your position is that you are using motorcycle and small Japanese gas engines while attempting to illustrate this great divide between the gas & diesel engines as they pertain to moving from point A to point B quicker than one another while towing a trailer or empty. The 7.5 liter / 460 cubic inch ford big block is not a little high revving gas engine. Your beloved noisy powerstroke is running around with in the neighborhood of 63 less horsepower and 6 yes only six more lb-ft of torque then my 460! So explain to me exactly what your big imagined power advantage is again? This time stick to the engines being discussed. Just so you know I don't spin my 460 past 4500 rpm. Yes it storms right past the noisy black smoke blowing diesels every damn time. Like I have already stated twice before the diesels highly touted longevity might come into play if the 460 wasn't holding up fine to over 200,000 miles anyway. As much as you would like to believe it diesel engines are not magic. > Let's put you in a similar 7,000 pound truck powered by the motorcycle > motor. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > -- frosty > The 7.5 liter / 460 cubic inch ford big block is not a little high revving > gas engine. Your beloved noisy powerstroke is running around with in the > neighborhood of 63 less horsepower and 6 yes only six more lb-ft of torque > then my 460! At the same time using nearly half as much of cheaper (diesel) fuel. BTW, what is the HP and torque of your 460 ? R. >>>>More idiotic bullshit: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > Horsepower is NOT a substitute for torque. Given two motors with equal > hp rating, expect the one with more torque to pull better. Of course. >>As another example, you could take a 150hp diesel and a 150hp >>motorcycle engine, put a CVT behind them (continuously variable [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > slope of its torque curve, and is spinning as fast as it can. Which truck > slows down, and which truck pulls ahead? True. Hence my CVT example. With the CVT, both engines would immediately be at their power peak and would pull the same. I agree with your example and using standard *real world* transmissions. i.e my comment about flat torque in the last sentance of my previous post. > Or, suppose we stay on the flat, and drag race. When I redline the PSD at > 3300 rpm, going 110 miles an hour, am I going to see you smiling at me > through > my side window, even with me, while turning 16,500 rpm? I didn't say it would be pleasant! > I would say there are at least two situations in which you _can_ tell the > difference between these two 150 hp motors. Back to the original quote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > gearing and higher RPM. The truck won't pull faster if the engine can't > spin any faster. If it is geared properly to match the power peak, it doesn't matter. Power is power. >>The advantages of diesels are their longevity, fuel economy and their >>very FLAT torque curve which makes pulling loads easier. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -- frosty >More idiotic bullshit: Says another idiot. Like it or not, diesels are not the "cure all" for all 3/4 - 1 ton truck owners. Thanks, I'll keep my gasser. Matt 99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4 On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:48:19 -0700, "Apples & Oranges" <SNIP> Obvious anti-diesel bias. Personally, I rather enjoy the sound of a diesel. Don't mind the smell, either. Its all part of the package. Diesel is not for everyone. Thats true, no denying it. I will be picking up an '05 F350 Crew 4x4, 6L powerstroke, it will pull a 5th wheel travel trailer (in the 11 thou pound range). I fully expect to keep it about twice to three times as long as most keep their trucks. I've been running my '85 F250 6.9L diesel for just under a half a million miles. It will pull the load, it will barely break a sweat. I don't mind the more expensive habit (damn but thats a lot of oil!). Your cry about tough-to-find diesel is crap. I long-hauled back in the late '90s (got off the road in '98) and there are quite a few diesel stops out there. Obviously more than you think. No, not as prevalent as gas, but hardly difficult to find. Want speed and fast take-offs? get a Mustang. Want pulling power that will give and continue to give? Get a diesel. >EXACTLY!!! > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >quick and powerful as the proven 460, or the "replacement" V-10 but not >today. > On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:48:19 -0700, "Apples & Oranges" > <SNIP> Obvious diesel bias. > Want speed and fast take-offs? get a Mustang. > Want pulling power that will give and continue to give? Get a diesel. Or if you don't want to compromise, go with a gasser and have both, speed and fast take-offs and pulling power. Then you won't have to shut er down at the drive through either. > <SNIP> >> On Thu, 25 Sep 2003 12:48:19 -0700, "Apples & Oranges" >> <SNIP> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >> <SNIP> LOL! =`:^D >I fully expect to keep it about twice to three times as long as most >keep their trucks. >I've been running my '85 F250 6.9L diesel for just under a half a >million miles. And this is one of the major points here. If you plan on running your truck over 200,000 miles, then the diesel becomes a pretty smart option as, ( in theory), it will run to 500,000 miles without any real problems. Personally though, I couldn't do it. I've got a 96 Safari van with 150,000 miles and little stuff keeps breaking on it. I get real tired of the nickle and diming that goes with a high mileage vehicle. Granted, the simpler a vehicle is, (no power options, few computer controls, no ABS), the less this would be an issue. Sadly, my F-250 is saddled with just about every option available, and when the time comes, it is going to be a real headache to fix all the crap that is likely to break. Matt 99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4 Have to agree with you on that. I'm an old diesel driver, but I will certainly admit that I've been eye-balling the V-10. When 2005 rolls around, and its time to put the stake into the heart of my old '85 F250 diesel, I'll have to make the decision. Leaning on the diesel for the longevity (I am fully aware that, as the example given, I tend to put quite a few more miles and years on my vehicles than the average truck owner). Unless I'm mistaken, though, they (diesels) tend to retain their value quite nicely (so long as you haven't ragged-out the truck). Only sticking points I'm stuck with is drw or srw, auto or manual? I know full well the duals will serve better for my trailer, but most of my driving will be w/o the trailer, and in that case, singles are far more preferable (not just for the $$ savings, but easier to drive around. Hell, a full-size bed, crewcab 4x4 F350 is a lot of vehicle, and those parking spots seem to be getting smaller all the time :D ) >>I fully expect to keep it about twice to three times as long as most >>keep their trucks. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >Matt >99 V-10 Super Duty, Super Cab 4x4 I have a 2000 F250SD V10, 3.78 gears. My in-law has a 2000 Excursion diesel, 3.78 gears. His trailer weighs ~10,000 lbs. Mine weighs ~7000 pounds (and I always have ~1000 lbs in the bed) He's towed mine, I've towed his, we've swapped trucks and trailers to test this out. The result is that the V10 outperforms with either load on hills because it will turn over 4000 RPM in 2nd gear at ~60 MPH up hills where the diesel has to stay in 3rd gear because of the diesel's lower RPM requrements. Yes the diesel motor generates more torque (about 20% more) but loses the advantage because the tranny must use higher gears for a given road speed. The diesel does go from 0 to 20 MPH faster than the V10 -- but after that... no. Now, with that said, the diesel gets 10-12 MPG towing the big trailer. The V10 gets 7.5 to 8.0 with the big trailer -- but it *moves*. --Mort >Heeee heeee, >Mr Apples and oranges apparently hasnt had a real pull test vs a diesel with [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 09/23/2003 Mort, Certainly you must be mistaken! NO mere gasoline engine could possibly out perform a Powerstroke Diesel! Maybe because of all the noise and smoke you became confused? :-) Thanks for the post... > I have a 2000 F250SD V10, 3.78 gears. > My in-law has a 2000 Excursion diesel, 3.78 gears. [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >> Version: 6.0.521 / Virus Database: 319 - Release Date: 09/23/2003 > I am looking at an excursion. The salesmen are more concerned about me > buying something the same day than giving me good information. Where can I > find some good comparisons between diesel and gas engines for this SUV? > Any personal experiences? > > Thanks If youre going to tow allot Diesel, if youre not going to tow much Gas why does such a simple question have to turn into a major debate. Why not simply state as fred did and be done with it..geez. If you want the V-10 be ready for large fuel consumption. If you want a diesel be ready for a lot of noise. The other option you have is to say heck with the Excursion and go with the Expedition which will cost you less money and has better (not a lot) fuel economy. > > I am looking at an excursion. The salesmen are more concerned about me > > buying something the same day than giving me good information. Where can I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > If youre going to tow allot Diesel, if youre not going to tow much Gas |
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