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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / April 2007

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Check Engine Light

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MrBlues - 27 Apr 2007 01:26 GMT
I have a 2002 F150 with a 4.2 V6. I had cleared the check engine light
previously and then drove for about 5 days and the light came back on. the
codes I get are P0171 System too Lean (Bank 1) and P0174 System too Lean
(Bank 2). The truck doesnt idle rough or run with a miss, although the fuel
mileage seems to suffer a bit. My question is what is most likely causing
this to trip? I could understand it happening after 1 or 2 restarts, but
after several days of turning off and on, I am lost. Any help or ideas is
greatly appreciated.

Steve
Jeff Strickland - 27 Apr 2007 01:36 GMT
>I have a 2002 F150 with a 4.2 V6. I had cleared the check engine light
>previously and then drove for about 5 days and the light came back on. the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>after several days of turning off and on, I am lost. Any help or ideas is
>greatly appreciated.

These codes would give you better than expected fuel milage, not worse than
expected. Since the code is that the mixture is lean, this means that there
is less fuel being delivered than the sensors want to see. If too much fuel
was being delivered, then the code would notate a rich condition, and
mileage would suffer as a result.

Lean is not a good thing, by the way.

My first guess would be an O2 Sensor on the affected bank, BUT you have a
code generated by the O2 sensor in both banks. Odds do not favor both
sensors failing at the same time, but therer is certainly a possibility of
that happening.

Are you sure that the repeat is both of these codes? You said the light
comes back on, but I'm asking if the SAME codes are coming up, or just one
of them. Or, a different one.
Jeff Strickland - 27 Apr 2007 02:07 GMT
I may have given a response that sends you to the store to buy some O2
Sensors. Sorry. The sensors can play a role because they falsely detect a
lean condition, and the computer is supposed to send in more gas to make the
mixture rich -- which would harm fuel consumption rates, sorry, I got that
wrong too -- and the sensor would send another report of a lean condition,
and the computer would send in more gas, and the sensor would send another
report of lean, and so on. Eventually, the computer will have made the
mixture as rich as it can, and the sensor is still reporting a lean
condition, so the code comes up.

Now, this would certainly lead to a drop in fuel mileage, as you have noted.
Having said that, I still have trouble with both O2 Sensors having the same
failure at the same time. Either one reporting a lean condition would cause
me to replace the O2 Sensor (there are two of them in your V6), but having
two with the same trouble at the same time makes me look upstream of the
sensor to find something that feeds the fuel. There is a test you can do
with a volt meter that will tell you if the O2 sensors are bad.

The first thing I would do is pull codes again to verify that the light is
actually on for the same reason as you had before.

>I have a 2002 F150 with a 4.2 V6. I had cleared the check engine light
>previously and then drove for about 5 days and the light came back on. the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Steve
MrBlues - 27 Apr 2007 03:39 GMT
yes, its the same codes time again.

>I may have given a response that sends you to the store to buy some O2
>Sensors. Sorry. The sensors can play a role because they falsely detect a
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>>
>> Steve
Jeff Strickland - 27 Apr 2007 03:46 GMT
Dave, in another thread on this discussion, suggests a vacuum leak. I like
his reasoning. There are diagnostic tests that can be done on an O2 Sensor
that only require you to use a volt meter. I've not done the test, so I do
not recall how to do it. Before you start going after the vac hoses, maybe
it would be prudent to see if the sensors are actually working right.

> yes, its the same codes time again.
>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>>>
>>> Steve
MrBlues - 27 Apr 2007 04:07 GMT
is it possible, that it is the intake gasket? and if its a vacuum leak, why
does it take so long to trip the code?
Steve
> Dave, in another thread on this discussion, suggests a vacuum leak. I like
> his reasoning. There are diagnostic tests that can be done on an O2 Sensor
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>>>>
>>>> Steve
Jeff Strickland - 27 Apr 2007 17:16 GMT
Intake Gasket? Yes, I suppose that could be the source of the leak.

The O2 Sensors see the lean condition and set about to alter the mixture by
adding more gas -- this happens by extending the injector timing. The
injectors open X (where X is a distance) every time they fire. The variable
is the time period that they remain open. If open for 500 milliseconds, then
you get a certain amount of gas, if open for 750 milliseconds then you get
more gas at the same throttle setting, and this makes the mixture richer. (I
have no clue what the actual timing is, I selected these numbers only to
illustrate the idea.) If the O2 Sensor tells the computer that the mixture
is lean, then the injector timing is lengthened. If rich, then the timing is
shortened. If the sensor(s) continue to report a condition that the injector
timing can not correct, you will eventually get a code. Keep in mind that
the O2 Sensor doesn't directly control the injector timing, it only reports
the fuel content of the exhaust stream immediately as practical after the
exhaust valves. The combustion process requires there be a trace amount of
unburnt fuel relative the amount of air. The sensors merely report to the
computer what the content is, and the computer looks at other inputs and
makes changes to bring the O2 sensor reading back to what is expected.

If you had a problem with only one of the sensors, then I would not hesitate
to think the sensor itself was the fault. But, yoiu are telling us that both
sensors are reporting a fault, so I would be looking to the fuel delivery
system -- low fuel pressure, that sort of thing -- or too much air -- leaky
hose or gasket.

On the fuel delivery side, there is a vacuum operated fuel pressure
regulator. The fuel pump delivers (for example) 60psi constantly. At idle,
you might only need 30psi to get the fuel needed, but at 70mph, you would
need every bit of that 60psi. If the pressure was low because the regulator
was letting fuel return to the tank that is actually needed at the
injectors, then you would have a lean condition. If you look at the injector
rail(s), you should be able to locate the fuel lines (yes, there are two.)
One line is bringing fuel to the rail, the other line is after the pressure
regulator and is sending fuel back to the tank so it can be used
later.Pressure regulators seldom fail where they remain closed which results
in high pressure at idle, they generally fail in a way that lets fuel go
past them when the pressure should be held as high as possible.

If you drove around town for several days and there was no code reported,
then went out onto the highway for a high speed trip to the next city and
the code popped up, then I think I'd dial in on the pressure regulator. Of
course, the fuel pump itself can deliver low pressure too ...

> is it possible, that it is the intake gasket? and if its a vacuum leak,
> why does it take so long to trip the code?
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>>>>>
>>>>> Steve
David M - 27 Apr 2007 02:22 GMT
> I have a 2002 F150 with a 4.2 V6. I had cleared the check engine light
> previously and then drove for about 5 days and the light came back on. the
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Steve

A vacuum leak or a broken vacuum hose perhaps?
Defective IAC?

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David M  (dmacchiarolo)
http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled
T/S 53
sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14  has been up 11 days 3:33

Jeff Strickland - 27 Apr 2007 03:05 GMT
>> I have a 2002 F150 with a 4.2 V6. I had cleared the check engine light
>> previously and then drove for about 5 days and the light came back on.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> A vacuum leak or a broken vacuum hose perhaps?
> Defective IAC?

IAC??? What's that?
David M - 27 Apr 2007 10:14 GMT
>>> I have a 2002 F150 with a 4.2 V6. I had cleared the check engine light
>>> previously and then drove for about 5 days and the light came back on.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> IAC??? What's that?

Idle air control.  

Signature

David M  (dmacchiarolo)
http://home.triad.rr.com/redsled
T/S 53
sled351 Linux 2.4.18-14  has been up 11 days 11:27

Jeff Strickland - 27 Apr 2007 17:17 GMT
>> IAC??? What's that?
>
> Idle air control.

Got it.
Jeff Strickland - 27 Apr 2007 03:12 GMT
>> I have a 2002 F150 with a 4.2 V6. I had cleared the check engine light
>> previously and then drove for about 5 days and the light came back on.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> A vacuum leak or a broken vacuum hose perhaps?
> Defective IAC?

By the way, Dave's suggestion is a good one. A vac leak in the right place
may not cause the engine to stall, but could upset the fuel mixture by
making it too lean.
Mac Cool - 27 Apr 2007 03:32 GMT
Jeff Strickland:

> By the way, Dave's suggestion is a good one. A vac leak in the right
> place may not cause the engine to stall, but could upset the fuel
> mixture by making it too lean.

I think I have the same problem. How do I track down a vac leak?

Signature

Mac Cool

Jeff Strickland - 27 Apr 2007 03:42 GMT
Vacuum leaks are a bitch to find.

Every hose has two ends, and either end can leak. Many hoses go to
t-fittings, and this creates at least 4 more ends to check. You have to
trace all of the hoses and check them for cracks -- typically at the ends,
but a hose can lay on a hot part and get burned in the middle too. There is
no quick and easy way, you just have to look at everything. Having said
that, if the motor runs okay, then your vac leak is probably coming from a
small hose as opposed to a large one. (If the leak is too big, then the
engine will not run well.)

> Jeff Strickland:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I think I have the same problem. How do I track down a vac leak?
C. E. White - 27 Apr 2007 15:02 GMT
>I have a 2002 F150 with a 4.2 V6. I had cleared the check engine
>light previously and then drove for about 5 days and the light came
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Steve

Leaking Intake Manifold
Other Vacuum leak
Contaminated MAF
Bad O2 Sensor

My guess - since both banks are showing up as too lean - a
contaminated MAF sensor. Second guess - you have been using a lot of
cheap gas and your injectors are partially clogged.

If it was by truck, I'd try cleaning the MAF sensor (See
http://www.fordf150.net/howto/clean-maf-mass-airflow-sensor.php ).

Ed

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