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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / May 2007F150 rear end gear recommendation?
Hello again I've been told by several people to consider changing the rear end gear on my 2wd '86 F150 when I do all the refurbish. It has the 4.9L 6 cyl, but hoping to drop a free 351m400 in it at the same time! I will mostly be using the truck for work, when necessary, and towing a max load 10K lbs tandem trailer with 1 old tractor on it ,between 4-7K lbs. Could hal from 10 miles to 300 miles depending. I'm looking at replacing the original 4 on the floor with an overdrive manual if I can find one reasonable. Questions: 1) how do I determine the ratio I have? 2) based one my projected usage, what would the most efficient rear end ratio be? 2a) if I can't get/find a decent 5 speed, would this change the 'best' ratio? 3) would a boneyard be a good choice for finding a 5 speed? Basically, are these usually bulletproof or tempermental? Thanks again OldIron > Hello again > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > OldIron This is only my opinion, but if you find a good 5 speed, I'd use a 4.10/4.11 rear end, if you have to stick with a 4 speed, I'd go with a 3.88/3.89 rear end gear. Again, only an opinion. Spdloader >This is only my opinion, but if you find a good 5 speed, I'd use a 4.10/4.11 >rear end, if you have to stick with a 4 speed, I'd go with a 3.88/3.89 rear >end gear. I would say 4.10 minimum with a 4 speed and possible a 4.56 depending on tires size if you want it to be able to get out of its own way with a heavily loaded trailer behind it. Idealy, I would install a later model 5 sp OD like a NV4500 and run a 4.56 or 4.88 axle ratio and it would tow real strong. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>This is only my opinion, but if you find a good 5 speed, I'd use a >>4.10/4.11 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > model 5 sp OD like a NV4500 and run a 4.56 or 4.88 axle ratio and it > would tow real strong. I'm not sure if the NV4500 will fit, but I agree with the point SnoMan is making. The question unanswered is how often is he going to tow? How often is he going to be heavy loaded? If this is an occassional thing and most of the time ie 80-90% of the time its going to be empty, I would go with Spdloaders recommendations. If its going to loaded 60-70% of the time then the lower gear recommendations. Considering gasoline is well over 3 bucks a gallon and still climbing, and the 351M/400 was a gas guzzler, not as bad as the 460, but it was still a thristy beast. This is going to be a carbed engine, and if it's going to have any goose its got to be a 4 barrel its something to consider. Whitelightning >The question unanswered is how often is he going to tow? How often is he >going to be heavy loaded? If this is an occassional thing and most of the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >and if it's going to have any goose its got to be a 4 barrel its something >to consider. This is why I suggested installing a later model 5 sp manual. You could adapt in a NV4500 but if you do you want a GM version as the Dodge version had issue with 5th gear rail and retainer and tended to pop out of gear with usage under heavy loads. (not all NV4500 are created equal) With a NV4500, even with a 4.88 you would have a 5 gear curise equal to that of a 4 speed with a about a 3.55 axle ratio and still have some serious pulling power on demand. I mention the NV4500 because it is a very sturdy and proven tranny. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com Well folks, from the looks of the responses I have gathered the following. This is a confusing issue<G>... I'm going to check back in after giving you the additional info and see where it points. Here's more info: Pulling at least 40% plus of the time I'm driving the truck, generally between 3 and 7 thousand pounds on the trailer. Planning on a big 4 barrel. I'm looking to pull, but not up mount everest. Standard midwestern roads and slopes, nothing too serious. Most of the pulling would be highway. I'm sure installing anything GM into the ole Ford would sign her death knell. It would also be a crisis in the family <G>. I'll have to look Ford or not change the tranny. Thanks, as always, for you valuable input! OldIron >The question unanswered is how often is he going to tow? How often is he >going to be heavy loaded? If this is an occassional thing and most of the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Whitelightning >I'm sure installing anything GM into the ole Ford would sign her death >knell. It would also be a crisis in the family <G>. I'll have to >look Ford or not change the tranny. I think you miss the point here, GM does not make the NV4500, they buy it and Dodge uses it too in a different flavor. Using a purely GM part would be different (like a motor or axle) but a tranny like a NV4500 is not buying a GM part. It is only a unit used by GM too. The days of Detriot making all their own trannies is long gone. BTW, NV stands for New Venture which used to be NP for New Process which used to make the NP 435 you likely have if you have a HD 4 speed. Nothing wrong at all with using a tranny that GM happens to use too especailly when it has a bullet proof reputation too and is a sought after tranny to be swapped into many brands of vehicles and you can find adaptor to fit one in pretty much any US 4x4 made in last 30 or 40 years. It is arguably one of the best trannies of its type out there. NV makes a lot of trannies for detriot. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com > >I'm sure installing anything GM into the ole Ford would sign her death > >knell. It would also be a crisis in the family <G>. I'll have to > >look Ford or not change the tranny. > > I think you miss the point here, GM does not make the NV4500, they buy > it and Dodge uses it too in a different flavor. Dodge and Ford built them together. Hence the name "New Venture." Then GM bailed out and Chrysler sold the company. I think it was Linamar Corporation, but I'm not sure. Chevy used a snap ring to hold fifth, Chrysler used a nut. The other difference is the Chrysler version has a synchronizer on reverse. Al > > >I'm sure installing anything GM into the ole Ford would sign her death > > >knell. It would also be a crisis in the family <G>. I'll have to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Al Screwed up, should have read "Dodge and GM," not Ford. Al >> > >I'm sure installing anything GM into the ole Ford would sign her death >> > >knell. It would also be a crisis in the family <G>. I'll have to [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Al As memory serves me I think that Dodge used own New Process for many years. I have not followed the ownership over the years though. It may have changed names when its ownership changed. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >Chevy used a snap ring to hold fifth, Chrysler used a nut. The other >difference is the Chrysler version has a synchronizer on reverse. GM used 3 different versions of the NV4500 that I know of and the last version has a sycro'ed reverse. Chyslers finally stopped using the nut retainer but I am not sure which year. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com > I'm sure installing anything GM into the ole Ford would sign her death > knell. It would also be a crisis in the family <G>. I'll have to > look Ford or not change the tranny. Thats like saying can only use a muncie if it came out of a Ford. Whitelightning >>This is only my opinion, but if you find a good 5 speed, I'd use a >>4.10/4.11 [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com It would definitely tow real strong, but I don't know if it would run on the highway with a 4.88 gear, and keep the rpms down. Spdloader > >>This is only my opinion, but if you find a good 5 speed, I'd use a > >>4.10/4.11 [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Spdloader Depends on the tire size. My 91 Isuzu came from the factory with 4.56 gears and a 5 speed overdrive manual. It also came with 31" tires, and it's not too bad at 70 to 75 MPH. I'd be more concerned with his max load of 10,000 pounds. That's a lot for any 1/2 ton truck. About now some genius is going to say he tows a 28,000 pound bulldozer with his F-150 all the time:) For occasional towing I would stay with 4.10 gears and just downshift when I had to. Most 5 speed HD transmissions have a 5 to 1 or better 1st gear. If he sticks to a realistic trailer weight he should be fine. Al >Depends on the tire size. My 91 Isuzu came from the factory with 4.56 gears >and a 5 speed overdrive manual. It also came with 31" tires, and it's not >too bad at 70 to 75 MPH. Good point, OD helps a lot. Strang thing today is that truck came with 4.10 and 4.56 long ago and no OD and now that a OD is avaible they also install taller axle yet which makes most of them pigs in OD. >I'd be more concerned with his max load of 10,000 pounds. That's a lot for >any 1/2 ton truck. About now some genius is going to say he tows a 28,000 >pound bulldozer with his F-150 all the time:) I agree that is a lot of weight for a 1/2 but I would feel better about it with a older model than a newer one as the older one were more on sturdiness and less on ride and creature comforts. >For occasional towing I would stay with 4.10 gears and just downshift when I >had to. Most 5 speed HD transmissions have a 5 to 1 or better 1st gear. If >he sticks to a realistic trailer weight he should be fine. SOme of the earlier 5 sp OD trannies were better than 6 to 1 in first. If you use a GM NV4500, you want a 92 to 94 version as it had a 6.34 first gear, models after that had a 5.61 first gear. BTW, this is not a GM plug, just mentioning the best tranny option if you are going to mod something. The NV4500 is a tank of a tranny and would loaf behind a 351. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>Depends on the tire size. My 91 Isuzu came from the factory with 4.56 >>gears [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > about it with a older model than a newer one as the older one were > more on sturdiness and less on ride and creature comforts. NOT SO! Pre-90 Ford trucks don't hold a candle to the new Ford trucks of today in any arena. Engineering and manufacturing techniques have advanced so far a 30+ year old truck has zero tow or hual advantages over what Ford is producing today. If you happen to have a pickup truck wrecking yard near you, (out here we have one that has trucks back to the 50's in it) you can compare these components (frames, axles, springs, brakes) side by side. >>For occasional towing I would stay with 4.10 gears and just downshift when >>I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com >Pre-90 Ford trucks don't hold a candle to the new Ford trucks of today in >any arena. Engineering and manufacturing techniques have advanced so far a >30+ year old truck has zero tow or hual advantages over what Ford is >producing today. If you happen to have a pickup truck wrecking yard near >you, (out here we have one that has trucks back to the 50's in it) you can >compare these components (frames, axles, springs, brakes) side by side. You better look before you blow smoke like this. Todays trucks are all built cheaper be it Ford, GM or Dodge. When they come out with new hype, it is because it costs less to build too. There is less springs in a new trucks and with each new generation they use less on 1/2 ton model so they ride more like cars and less like trucks. Below is a few examples of this. This link in mostly GM but I have pics of Ford and Dodges too that I have not posted yet. They all follow the same pattern, to get a better ride for sales they use less springs which results in a mushier ride when loaded. Heck even the rear spring on my 89 suburban would shame some new 3/4 tons. (it has 5 thick leafs and a booster and well beyond anything in new 1/2 tons.) Detriot does a good job with the hype though because they have you sold on it. http://forum.snoman.com/viewtopic.php?t=217 ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >>Pre-90 Ford trucks don't hold a candle to the new Ford trucks of today in >>any arena. Engineering and manufacturing techniques have advanced so far [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > You better look before you blow smoke like this. More of your mindless baseless speculation??? Todays trucks are all > built cheaper be it Ford, GM or Dodge. When they come out with new > hype, it is because it costs less to build too. There is less springs [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > booster and well beyond anything in new 1/2 tons.) Detriot does a good > job with the hype though because they have you sold on it. They haven't sold me on anything. I have driven used and abused and rebuilt many 60's 70's 80's 90's and 2000+ pickup trucks, the new trucks are vastly better. The number of springs in a spring pack is not nearly as relevant as the metallurgy involved in their manufacture. Just because the rivets used on the titanic and the steel used on the hull were thicker absolutely does not mean it was superior to today's ships, we now all know this is because of the vast advances in metallurgy. Please don't be such a bone head in public. Try sticking to topics you actually know one ore two things about. Sheesh. > http://forum.snoman.com/viewtopic.php?t=217 > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com > Please don't be such a bone head in > public. Try sticking to topics you actually know one ore two things about. > Sheesh. That would be plowing snow, and bullshitting. Two topics he knows about.  SignatureDavid M (dmacchiarolo) > On Thu, 24 May 2007 11:23:54 -0400, "Spdloader" > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com Assuming he had the budget. Would this be a viable application for an Underdrive unit that bolts to the back-end of a transmission. He could have an axle like the 3.73 and leave the Underdrive unit in the high setting (1 to 1) when not towing and have the 3.73 axle ratio in all 4 or 5 gears, but when towing use the (1 to .8) Underdrive setting and have an overall axle ratio of 4.65 in all 4 or 5 gears. I'm not very mechanical, but this sounds like it would be a viable application for an Underdrive unit. Considering they don't make 2 speed axles for standard pickups. >> On Thu, 24 May 2007 11:23:54 -0400, "Spdloader" >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >application for an Underdrive unit. Considering they don't make 2 >speed axles for standard pickups. As far as money goes, a underdrive (if you can find one) will cost a lot more than a gear swap or tranny swap (you could likely swap gears and tranny for less than a under drive unit.) Underdrives are VERY pricey. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com >> Hello again >> [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Spdloader I agree. Most of them are 3.55, and it's too fast for towing 10k lbs. The boneyard I think is the only choice for a 5-speed. They used a heavy duty unit made by ZF and a light duty unit made by Mazda. You're going to need that Heavy Duty one. There's a windsor version, a 460 version, and a diesel version. Does the 460 bellhousing pattern also fit a 351M? Need to figure that out. >>> Hello again >>> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > diesel version. Does the 460 bellhousing pattern also fit a 351M? Need > to figure that out. The 351M's were long gone from Fords line up by the time they started using the ZF 5 speeds... >> Does the 460 bellhousing pattern also fit a 351M? Need to figure that >> out. > > The 351M's were long gone from Fords line up by the time they started > using the ZF 5 speeds... I know. I don't think anybody even brought up the issue of what will bolt up to that block. Need to figure that out. I'm pretty sure the Windsor won't work, but I forget where I heard that. >>> Does the 460 bellhousing pattern also fit a 351M? Need to figure that >>> out. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > up to that block. Need to figure that out. I'm pretty sure the Windsor > won't work, but I forget where I heard that. Not a problem, http://72.20.96.178/commerce/ccpc1174-1322-gm-nv4500-manual-transmission-adapter -kit-712552-712552.htm Whitelightning >>>> Does the 460 bellhousing pattern also fit a 351M? Need to figure that >>>> out. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Whitelightning The 351M/400 shares bellhousing bolt paterns with 429 and 460.(except for a few rare 1973 blocks) Tthe 351C does not as it uses a small block ford pattern. Also 351M/400 blocks cast in Michigan casting center prior to about march 1977 should be avoided as they were prone to crack water jacket in lifter galley area and none of these 351M/400 blocks are good overbore platforms. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com To all: Thanks for ALL your input! Now, once we tear down the body, fix what's needing it, we'll have a ton more info to make our decisions! Thanks again, I'm always amazed at the amount of info one can get if they only ask on the NGs! Thanks again OldIron >>>>> Does the 460 bellhousing pattern also fit a 351M? Need to figure that >>>>> out. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >----------------- >TheSnoMan.com |
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