Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / June 2007
Brakes yet again.
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Dan S. - 29 May 2007 22:25 GMT My '89 F150 6-cyl just had its brakes go out. While I was driving down the road, I could still use them, but I was smelling them burn. I stopped the truck, sniffed around, it seems to be coming from the front passenger side. I got back in, started out, and they went down to the floor.
I had known that the master cyl was bad, because I had no power. Could it have finally gone completely out? Is it more likely a brake caliper? I'm probably going to do them myself, because the overhead at the brake shop it too high.
Note: If you have read my previous post, you know that I just had both rear axles replaced. They did a rear brake job when they did that.
 Signature Yours, Dan S.
Resident Irish fan: stated embarassment for some, hero to others, revered by all.
Dan S. - 29 May 2007 23:13 GMT Dan S. brought next idea :
> My '89 F150 6-cyl just had its brakes go out. While I was driving down the > road, I could still use them, but I was smelling them burn. I stopped the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Note: If you have read my previous post, you know that I just had both rear > axles replaced. They did a rear brake job when they did that. Assuming it needs the Power Assist Unit, does replacing it involve removing the dashboard or any other inhumane act?
 Signature Yours, Dan S.
There is Homer, then there is Uber Homer and I intend to push the limits.
Whitelightning - 30 May 2007 01:03 GMT Its hard to know what to tell you because your not clear in your descriptions of your problems.
IE you knew the master was bad because you had no power. Does that mean the truck wouldn't stop worth a darn with a low pedal possibly that fades, or the pedal was hard as a rock? Hard as a rock is not a master problem but a power booster issue. And it doesn't necessarily mean the booster is bad, it could be a bad hose, low vacuum, or the check valve at the booster is bad.
The "smell" coming from one wheel tends to say ether the caliper hung up, the brake hose went to pot, or a wheel bearing is goosed. A bad wheel bearing will let the wheel and rotor lean over and the brakes will be supporting the vehicle, they get hot and stink, hot enough the fluid boils, and regardless the caliper seals get cooked. You will also have a low pedal on intial application as the rotor leaning ovwer pushes the piston all the way back in the caliper bore. Then again the caliper slide could have hung up, or the caliper piston could be stuck which will also over heat the brakes to the point it could boil the brake fluid which will result in the no pedal scenario you described. A bad brake hose can do the same thing. They go bad and peal on the inside, this blocks the hose like a heart valve, fluid can flow in but it cant get out. Brakes over heat, fluid boils. Caliper gets cooked as well, and always replace hoses in pairs from the same manufacturer. There is a plus and minus spec on inner hose diameter, one brand may be to the plus, the other to the minus, and this can cause a pull on intial brake application. Not a real issue on dry roads, but a panick stop on slippery surface could cause a skid. The over heating can also result in piston seal failure which will also result in no brake pedal, but the front brake resovoir of the master will be empty, thats the larger one. The smaller one is for the rear brakes, . I'll get greif here, but replace calipers in pairs, and replace the caliper hard ware. Myself I go with loaded calipers, they come with everything. Raybesto's has some really good ones, NAPA's arent bad ether. Autozones Durastop suck. Another thing to keep in mind, Fords have two calipers that are the same except for piston material. The standard has the "plastic" pistons, the "police" have steel pistons. The police style cause less issues than the standard and cost about the same. There is a difference in the pads, the clip on the inner pad is different between the two styles of calipers, other wise they are the same. And under no circumstances mix the two styles on the same axle unless you like going for wild rides, and love brakes that pull weird when they get hot.
If you think the master is leaking unbolt it from the booster and pull it foreword, do you see brake fluid, or is there a trail down the booster from the bottom of the master?
On replacing the booster, not a hard job its a nut and bolt thing, one vacuum line, remove the master, under the dash four bolts hold the booster to the fire wall.
Whitelightning
Dan S. - 30 May 2007 01:28 GMT Whitelightning pretended :
> Its hard to know what to tell you because your not clear in your descriptions > of your problems. [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > Whitelightning I found this article that helps, although it's for a '74 Dodge.
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/booster.html
You've got me worried about the wheel bearing breaking now.
But, when I said it had no power, the brakes were hard as a rock from the day I got it. Now, I'm hoping it's just the power assist.
Is there a relatively easy way to check if the bearing is broken. The wheel doesn't seem to be leaning.
 Signature Yours, Dan S.
Resident Irish fan: stated embarassment for some, hero to others, revered by all.
Jeff Strickland - 30 May 2007 03:09 GMT > Whitelightning pretended : >> [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > Is there a relatively easy way to check if the bearing is broken. The > wheel doesn't seem to be leaning. I'm sorry, but this is one of those things where you are asking far too generalized of a question. I am having a very difficult time shaking the feeling that, if you gotta ask maybe you should not be doing the work.
Dan S. - 30 May 2007 03:47 GMT Jeff Strickland laid this down on his screen :
>> Whitelightning pretended : >>> [quoted text clipped - 67 lines] > generalized of a question. I am having a very difficult time shaking the > feeling that, if you gotta ask maybe you should not be doing the work. Well, there are jobs I won't tackle. But brakes, I've always had pretty good luck with ... now wheel bearing ... never tried.
 Signature Yours, Dan S.
Veteran, cook, dad, dog owner, truck owner, landscape professional, M.P.A., B.A., couch borne coach, student of Spanish, bookkeeper, household manager, self-appointed neighborhood watch czar, jack fo all trades, master of none ... ask me again if I have a minute.
SnoMan - 30 May 2007 02:01 GMT >The "smell" coming from one wheel tends to say ether the caliper hung up, >the brake hose went to pot, or a wheel bearing is goosed. I agree calper likely stuck. I had one stick on me once and rotor got so hot it turned blue when it cooled. Stunk big time too. If it gets hot enough it can cause seals in caliper to fail and then pressure is lost and braking power is compromised. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
Dan S. - 30 May 2007 02:36 GMT SnoMan expressed precisely :
>> The "smell" coming from one wheel tends to say ether the caliper hung up, >> the brake hose went to pot, or a wheel bearing is goosed. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com I can pump them back up (but, of course they end up losing pressure again). Is that symptomatic of the seals failing? Also, when I went out there a few minutes ago, they had some pressure. I don't know if that's caused by them cooling or what.
I have to take the truck to my mom's tomorrow because our lovely residential community doesn't like people working on rusty old trucks (or any other car) in their driveways. I plan on driving slow and pumping the brakes. It's about a 2-mile drive through town.
 Signature Yours, Dan S.
Resident Irish fan: stated embarassment for some, hero to others, revered by all.
Whitelightning - 30 May 2007 07:08 GMT > I can pump them back up (but, of course they end up losing pressure > again). Is that symptomatic of the seals failing? Also, when I went out > there a few minutes ago, they had some pressure. I don't know if that's > caused by them cooling or what. when seals fail, fluid leaks out It sounds like you boiled the brake fluid which puts a ton of air in the brake lines.
> I have to take the truck to my mom's tomorrow because our lovely > residential community doesn't like people working on rusty old trucks (or > any other car) in their driveways. I plan on driving slow and pumping the > brakes. It's about a 2-mile drive through town. If the brakes aren't right, you have no business nor right endangering my life by driving it on public roads. If you hurt or kill someone and I were to be sitting on a jury at your trial, I would vote to hang you by your short hairs till the ravens plucked the meat from your bones. I have no sympathy for people who knowingly drive unsafe vehicles on public roads, none at all. Think of what would happen if some kid bolted out in front of you chasing a ball, do you really want to live with that your whole life?
Whitelightning
SnoMan - 30 May 2007 14:40 GMT >If the brakes aren't right, you have no business nor right endangering my >life by driving it on public roads. If you hurt or kill someone and I were [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >none at all. Think of what would happen if some kid bolted out in front of >you chasing a ball, do you really want to live with that your whole life? You have a point but if he droves slow (under 20 MPH) and his emergency brake in functional (it does not depend on fluid) and you are carefull, this can be safely done for his needs. HIghspeed travel and/or over a longer distance would be a different matter. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
Heatwave - 30 May 2007 23:00 GMT > >If the brakes aren't right, you have no business nor right endangering my > >life by driving it on public roads. If you hurt or kill someone and I were [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com Emergency Brake? Anyone that calls the "PARKING" brake an "emergency" brake and advocates using it as the primary brake on public roads is a retard who SHOULD NOT be giving any advice on vehicles what so ever.
--------------------------- Snojob Follies: SBJ: Dumb brake question http://tinyurl.com/2ya3wo ---------------------------
SnoMan - 31 May 2007 00:59 GMT >Emergency Brake? Anyone that calls the "PARKING" brake an "emergency" >brake and advocates using it as the primary brake on public roads is a >retard who SHOULD NOT be giving any advice on vehicles what so ever. I guess you never had to use one as such huh. WHile it is considered a parking brake its main function to to provide some form of limited braking backup in the event of main system falure. In about 40 years of driving it has saved my butt a few times. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
Jeff Strickland - 31 May 2007 01:25 GMT >>Emergency Brake? Anyone that calls the "PARKING" brake an "emergency" >>brake and advocates using it as the primary brake on public roads is a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > braking backup in the event of main system falure. In about 40 years > of driving it has saved my butt a few times. I'm glad I don't ride around in your cars. In 40+ years of driving, I've only lost brakes once -- a brake line was ripped out of a caliper by a branch.
SnoMan - 31 May 2007 12:53 GMT >I'm glad I don't ride around in your cars. In 40+ years of driving, I've >only lost brakes once -- a brake line was ripped out of a caliper by a >branch. One was a master cylinder failure (without warning) and the other was a hose between rear axle and chassis and none where off road related. Odds of the first are pretty rare but then odds are based on even rare events. I keep some cars a very long time and the master cyl failure was on a car before they even had dual braking systems so when there was a problem with them you were really in a bad spot if E-brake did not work. ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
Jeff Strickland - 31 May 2007 16:06 GMT >>I'm glad I don't ride around in your cars. In 40+ years of driving, I've >>only lost brakes once -- a brake line was ripped out of a caliper by a [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > was a problem with them you were really in a bad spot if E-brake did > not work. The E-brake became the P-brake when the MC attained the capacity to provide dual braking.
I'd accept the notion that the P-brake can provide E-brake funcionality, but only once. The car is moving, you realize it isn't going to stop by normal means -- using the brake pedal -- so the P-brake can be employed to bring the car to a halt. Once the car is no longer moving, the best strategy is to walk away immediately, do not rely on the P-brake to drive the car more than about 20 feet to the side of the road, if it isn't already there.
I object strongly to the suggestion you gave earlier that the OP could drive a crippled truck across town to his mother's house to affect repairs, relying on the P-brake to control the vehicle movements. That was a very bad suggestion.
Heatwave - 31 May 2007 02:18 GMT > >Emergency Brake? Anyone that calls the "PARKING" brake an "emergency" > >brake and advocates using it as the primary brake on public roads is a > >retard who SHOULD NOT be giving any advice on vehicles what so ever. > > I guess you never had to use one as such huh. No because unlike you I KNOW how to service my brakes and I DO NOT allow cars to leave the shop when I know their braking system pose a danger! Doing so would not only be stupid but AGAINST THE LAW.
> WHile it is considered a > parking brake its main function to to provide some form of limited > braking backup in the event of main system falure. In about 40 years > of driving it has saved my butt a few times. > ----------------- > TheSnoBubba.com Let me restate that you are a RETARD WHO SHOULD NOT BE GIVING ADVICE ON BRAKES! Let alone be allowed on the road! Your brake failures are no doubt the results of your inability to service or maintain your brakes! Your advice has been called dangerous multiple times. The very admission of needing to use the PARKING brake to save your butt is exactly what we have been warning people of! We don't need Bubba's like you in the newsgroups.
--------------------------- Snojob Follies: SBJ: Dumb brake question http://tinyurl.com/2ya3wo ---------------------------
Rodan - 31 May 2007 08:35 GMT ..... you are a RETARD ..... you should SHOULD NOT BE GIVING ADVICE ON BRAKES ..... you should not be allowed on the road! ..... Your brake failures are from your inability maintain your brakes! ..... Your advice is dangerous ..... We don't need Bubbas like you in the newsgroups. __________________________________________________
Please don't be intimidated by the hate-filled rant. Most of us are non-professionals seeking the advice of more experienced persons, and we hope for courteous and intelligent answers.
Comments such as those, discourteous and filled with offensive name-calling, sometimes contain some measure of intelligence. When you get such an answer, just edit the statements as you read them: Wherever the word "you" appears, delete it. At the begining of each sentence add the expression, "In my opinion,". Then examine the statement for any residual intelligence.
Good luck.
Rodan.
SnoMan - 31 May 2007 13:01 GMT >> >Emergency Brake? Anyone that calls the "PARKING" brake an "emergency" >> >brake and advocates using it as the primary brake on public roads is a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >cars to leave the shop when I know their braking system pose a danger! >Doing so would not only be stupid but AGAINST THE LAW. I guess you rear down and inspect every master cylinder in every vehicle to inspect its bushings huh? While you can do some PM with brakes there is always something that can still go rwrong as rare as it might be.
>> WHile it is considered a >> parking brake its main function to to provide some form of limited [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >have been warning people of! We don't need Bubba's like you in the >newsgroups. The retard her is you because when thing do not go with your drift or take on thing you act like a spoiled child and throw a fit. Again brakes can fail for unforseen reasons but people of limited vision and wisdom such as your self cannot see this. You can reduce the chance of a failure to a very very low probabilty but you can NEVER reduce it to zero because things do happen. I have seen new and rebuilt wheel cyclinders and master cylinders fail because of defective seals that were properly installed. I see you are tring out for your troll badge too.
>--------------------------- ------------------------- ----------------- TheSnoMan.com
Jeff Strickland - 31 May 2007 16:11 GMT >>> >Emergency Brake? Anyone that calls the "PARKING" brake an "emergency" >>> >brake and advocates using it as the primary brake on public roads is a [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > brakes there is always something that can still go rwrong as rare as > it might be. Snow, The OP told us in no uncertain terms that his braking system is on the fritz. YOU told him to rely on the PARKING BRAKE to make the trip across town to affect repairs at his mom's house.
That was plain and simple, stupid advice. Making you the moron here.
I'm all over the unforseen circumstance thing. But, we can easily foresee the circumstances here getting out of control, with the worst case scenario being the loss of a life. In a good case scenario, the loss of life could be yours, I suppose ...
Jason - 27 Jun 2007 08:20 GMT damn man, you are a f*ing moron! you tried your bad advice and sh1t throwing at FTE and you got the smack down. are you still trying to give bad advice? go screw a box of thumbtacks!
-cutts-
>>> >Emergency Brake? Anyone that calls the "PARKING" brake an "emergency" >>> >brake and advocates using it as the primary brake on public roads is a [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > ----------------- > TheSnoMan.com Dan S. - 30 May 2007 19:15 GMT Whitelightning used his keyboard to write :
>> I can pump them back up (but, of course they end up losing pressure again). >> Is that symptomatic of the seals failing? Also, when I went out there a [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Whitelightning The good news is, I got in the truck this morning and they were almost back to normal. From this, I'm assuming that is was just a stuck caliper. There does seems to be some mushyness and a little pull to the left which leads me to believe there is some air in the line like you and others said there would be.
The bad news, I still needs a new power assist and have to bleed them and the lugs look ugly and rusty.
But, considering what it could have been, I consider myself blessed.
 Signature Yours, Dan S.
Rightee tightee, leftee loosee, right?
Jeff Strickland - 30 May 2007 22:29 GMT > SnoMan expressed precisely : >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > any other car) in their driveways. I plan on driving slow and pumping the > brakes. It's about a 2-mile drive through town. The more comments I read, the more convinced I am that you should let somebody else do this work for you.
The master cylinder is the reason for the pedal fade. The MC has chambers inside, and a piston connected to your foot, and seals where the piston goes from one chamber into another. The seals are failing, and brake fluid can pass through them, causing your foot to drop to the floor the longer you hold the pedal down. You pump the pedal and it comes back up, this is classic MC failure. In this sort of leak, there is no fluid lost to the outside -- you will not be able to see fluid visible in the area around the MC.
You should drive to your Mom's house in mid day, that way you won't hit Paris or Lindsay as they drive home drunk ...
The MC does not account for the stench you reported, that is caused by something different.
You _could_ have a leaky brake cylinder (drum brakes) or a leaky caliper (disc brakes). Pumping hot brake fluid onto the hot rotors would stink, and braking would be difficult at best -- brake fluid is a bit of a lubricant, and brakes do not like to be lubricated. (Brake fluid is not a very good lubricant, but even a shitty lubricant on the brakes is never good.) If you have a leak at a cylinder or caliper, it ought to be visible from the outside -- fluid ought to be present on the inside of the rim(s).
Dan S. - 30 May 2007 22:35 GMT Jeff Strickland used his keyboard to write :
>> SnoMan expressed precisely : >>> [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > have a leak at a cylinder or caliper, it ought to be visible from the outside > -- fluid ought to be present on the inside of the rim(s). I figrd it owt mayn. But thayx
 Signature Yours, Dan S.
Notably: not a sock
Jeff Strickland - 30 May 2007 23:30 GMT > Jeff Strickland used his keyboard to write : >>> SnoMan expressed precisely : [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > I figrd it owt mayn. But thayx We'll see ...
You may do the job perfectly, but that's not the impression I'm getting.
Dan S. - 31 May 2007 00:44 GMT Jeff Strickland used his keyboard to write :
>> Jeff Strickland used his keyboard to write : >>>> SnoMan expressed precisely : [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > You may do the job perfectly, but that's not the impression I'm getting. I need air and the cool tools that one gets when one has air, but, it's not like I'm a hobbiest or anything. I have to use a lug wrench. I busted a lug stud off of my car when I did its brakes last. I was pulled the hub and then realized: "hey, it just taps out the backside."
I tend to give that impression, half-jokingly. Kind of in a self-deprecating way. It gets me benched in softball too. There is just a lot I have never done on a car. That's all. I'm not scared of it. Maybe there are times I should be a little more careful. But, where would be the fun in that?
 Signature Yours, Dan S.
Veteran, cook, dad, dog owner, truck owner, landscape professional, M.P.A., B.A., couch borne coach, student of Spanish, bookkeeper, household manager, self-appointed neighborhood watch czar, jack of all trades, master of none ... ask me again if I have a minute.
Jeff Strickland - 31 May 2007 00:49 GMT > Jeff Strickland used his keyboard to write : >>> Jeff Strickland used his keyboard to write : [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > Maybe there are times I should be a little more careful. But, where would > be the fun in that? Do you need me to 'splain you how to bench bleed the Master Cylinder? I'll be happy to share if you are not sure what it is or how to do it. I take a while in the explanation, so I'm not gonna give it if it isn't needed.
It really is a very important part of changing the MC ...
And, you need to buy the Bench Bleed Kit from the store where you get the MC.
Jason - 27 Jun 2007 23:45 GMT no you dont, its very easy. fill the MC with fluid then somehow attach a brake line to both ports on the MC. make sure they are submerged in more brake fluid. with the MC in a vice push the piston in and out several times till you cant see any more air escape. and most importantly dont let the fluid drain back out! doubtful it will with a new seal but just be careful!
-cutts-
>> Jeff Strickland used his keyboard to write : >>>> Jeff Strickland used his keyboard to write : [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > And, you need to buy the Bench Bleed Kit from the store where you get the > MC. Jeff Strickland - 28 Jun 2007 20:45 GMT The kit costs 5 bucks, and includes hoses and nipples so there is no "somehow" as part of the discussion. Then, once the bubbles stop, leave the hose(s) and nipples attached while mounting the MC. Finally, remove one nipple and attache the brake pipe, then remove the other nipple sna attach the other brake pipe. Then bleed the system as you normally would, be sure that the air bubbles are worked through the system and you do not drain the reservior while you are working.
> no you dont, its very easy. fill the MC with fluid then somehow attach a > brake line to both ports on the MC. make sure they are submerged in more [quoted text clipped - 88 lines] >> And, you need to buy the Bench Bleed Kit from the store where you get the >> MC. Whitelightning - 29 Jun 2007 02:59 GMT > The kit costs 5 bucks, and includes hoses and nipples so there is no > "somehow" as part of the discussion. Then, once the bubbles stop, leave [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > be sure that the air bubbles are worked through the system and you do not > drain the reservior while you are working. when the master is mounted in the vise make sure the bore is level, or you'll never get all the air out. I am going to suggest a step that makes things a lot easier. when you think you have all the air out of the master cylinder, rap the bottom of the cylinder with a screw driver handle, or the handle of a small like tack hammer small hammer,and watch for air coming out of the compensating ports with in the master. Then pump the cylinder again a few times and repeat untill no air when rapping or pumping. This is also a good method on large bore caliper and multi-piston calipers. it knocks air bells or bubbles what ever you want to call them loose from surfaces.
Off course if you can find the correct flare nut plugs and insert them in the ports instead of hoses, you just pump till you cant move the piston anymore, and it is totally bled, there wont be any air as this method forces it all out through the compensating ports. Fluid is a solid and cant be compressed which is why the piston wont move when the air is all out.
Whitelightning
Lyle Wright - 31 May 2007 22:14 GMT Please post a pic of your truck, so I can get off the road if I see you comming. You say the axles were just replaced and the rear brakes done? What did the mechanic have to say about the rest of the brake system? You really should have the brakes done by someone with experience. Brake pedal hard? Not an automatic booster problem, could be oil from leaking axle seal had saturated the rear shoes. To test booster; with engine off, apply brake pedal 4 or 5 times then release pedal. Now apply pedal, if needed (pedal goes to floor), pump pedal till some resistance (braking force) is felt and continue to hold pedal down. With pedal still held down, start the engine. If booster is working, the pedal will drop some. Loose front wheel bearings will cause low pedal, to test, raise wheel off ground so it is free to spin, grab wheel at top and bottom and see if you can rock it sideways. A c-hair of play is fine, more than that may require an adjustment. Another source of low pedal is rear shoes not adjusted correctly. It may be that the passenger side brake got hot if it was the only brake working.
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