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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / March 2008

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Clutch reservoir/line problems

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H-DGuzzi - 01 Mar 2008 18:03 GMT
Greetings:
I thought I had this problem licked a few months ago, but it has
reared its ugly head again. Once in a while, and now with increasing
regularity, my clutch fluid seems to mysteriously dissappear. I do not
have any leak spots on the garage floor, and no signs of fluid
dripping or leaking anywhere. Yet, and especially when it sits facing
uphill for a day or two, the clutch goes to the floor and I can not
get it in or out of gear without brute force. I check the reservoir,
open it, find that it's a tiny bit lower than last time, add some
fluid, pump the pedal and then I'm on my way. Where could it be going?
Possibly a tiny hole somewhere in the line which squirts it out over
time? What should I first look for? Worse case scenario, what am I
looking at for a professional repair job?
(I just spent $580 on new rear brake cylinders)...:>(
Thanks!
tomcas - 02 Mar 2008 14:56 GMT
> Greetings:
> I thought I had this problem licked a few months ago, but it has
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> (I just spent $580 on new rear brake cylinders)...:>(
> Thanks!
If you have a coaxial slave cylinder then most likely its filling the
bottom of the bell housing with fluid. Pull the rubber access plug on
the side of the bell housing and check with a mirror and flashlight. If
nothing there then check inside the truck around the clutch pedal rod or
carpet.
Jeff Strickland - 02 Mar 2008 18:51 GMT
You say, "tiny bit lower," but is a tiny bit a teaspoon, tablespoon, few
ounces?

Unless the level is below MIN on the reservoir, I see no reason to top it
off -- given the symptoms you are having. (There are lots of reasons to top
it off, but the symptom set you are having does not prompt me to fill the
reservior.)

Your clutch is activated hydraulically, exactly the same as the brakes --  
with a minor variance. The variance is, as you rest yoru foot on the brake
pedal to hold your truck inm place, you apply pressure to the sustem. The
clutch has massive springs inside that apply pressure to the system. The end
result is the same, and I will describe it for you from the perspective of
the brakes.

As the pressure on the pedal is maintained, the fluid inside the Master
Cylinder is held up on two different fluid circuits. There is a piston
passing between two different chambers in the MC, and o-rings attempting to
keep the fluid separated -- the chambers are designed to regulate braking
pressure on two sets of wheels, so if one set looses brake pressure, hopes
are the other set will retain functionality long enough to stop. In any
case, a faliure of the o-rings allows the piston to move because fluid on
one side of the o-ring can pass to the other side, and the affect you feel
is your foot sinking as you wait for the light to turn green. As your foot
falls and brake pressure drops, the vehicle may begin to creep; you remedy
this by pumping the brake pedal a few times to bring the pressure back up,
which raises the pedal off the floor and you continue waiting for the light
to change, and your foot sinks again.

On the clutch, the same forces are at work, except the pressure is applied
by the massive springs in the clutch itself. The symptom set is a bit
different because the pressure comes from a different place, but at the end
of the day, you still need a new Clutch Master Cylinder. There is a piston
connected to the clutch pedal, and it has an o-ring that seals it to the
bore inside the MC. You could simply press the clutch pedal several times
while the trans is in N, this will build hydraulic pressure in the clutch
system, allowing eventual selection of the desired gear. You probably have
difficulty selecting any gear, and more difficulty on the first or second
gear selection after not selecting any new gear for a long time. You notice
that 1st and R are most difficult to select because the gears moving due to
the engine and the gears not moving due to the driveline are the most
difficult to engage -- as you make a shift after the turck is already
moving, the selection is less difficult because the parts are already
moving, and if you make the gear change at the right moment the gearsw will
be moving at the same speed and the change can be done without using the
clutch at all.

BOTTOM LINE
The Clutch Mater Cylinder has an internal leak -- failing o-ring -- that
makes the pedal action ineffective until you pump the pedal several times.
The fact that you have filled the reservior is coincidence.

If you sat at a Red Light in 1st gear and the clutch depressed the whole
time, you would notice that the clutch engages at different points, in
extreme cases the truck might creep on its own, but you probably uswe the
brake at the same time and do not notice. Normally, thbe clutch should start
to grab at about the half-way point, but you should notice it grab nearly at
the floor on some occasions, and further up on others. If this happens, the
clutch springs have caused the fluid to leak past the o-ring(s) and the
clutch plate is beginning to approach the flywheel all by itself.

In both systems -- clutch and brake -- the fluid pushes on slave cylinders
that actually activate the mechanism at the other end of the pipe. These
slave cylinders can leak and give the same symptoms, except they will leak
to the outside and you will see fluid coming out. You will also see a
noticable drop in the fluid level in the respective reservior -- the fluid
will drop from MAX to MIN or below, and this sort of drop is never
characterized as "tiny bit lower."

</top post>

> Greetings:
> I thought I had this problem licked a few months ago, but it has
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> (I just spent $580 on new rear brake cylinders)...:>(
> Thanks!
H-DGuzzi - 03 Mar 2008 01:17 GMT
> You say, "tiny bit lower," but is a tiny bit a teaspoon, tablespoon, few
> ounces?
[quoted text clipped - 84 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

WOW! Thanks. I'll have to digest that. When I do, I'll probably
realize I need some clutch work done.   :~(
Jeff Strickland - 03 Mar 2008 01:34 GMT
On Mar 2, 10:51 am, "Jeff Strickland" <cr...@verizon.net> wrote:
> You say, "tiny bit lower," but is a tiny bit a teaspoon, tablespoon, few
> ounces?
[quoted text clipped - 99 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

WOW! Thanks. I'll have to digest that. When I do, I'll probably
realize I need some clutch work done.   :~(

By the description you gave of the symptom set, all you need is a Clutch
Master Cylinder.
H-DGuzzi - 13 Mar 2008 18:32 GMT
> On Mar 2, 10:51 am, "Jeff Strickland" <cr...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 109 lines]
>
> - Show quoted text -

Curious as to what kind of labor is involved in the replacement of the
master?
Thanks.
Jeff Strickland - 13 Mar 2008 20:27 GMT
> By the description you gave of the symptom set, all you need is a Clutch
> Master Cylinder.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Curious as to what kind of labor is involved in the replacement of the
master?
Thanks.

It is not all that difficult. It is kinda like replacing the brake master
cylinder and wheel cylinders; if you have done this before, then you should
be able to do your clutch master.

You will introduce air into the system, so you will have to bleed the fluid
until the bubbles stop. The master cylinder will be REQUIRED to be bled on
the bench before you install it. When you buy the new master, you will have
to ask the parts guy for the bench bleeding kit -- an assortment of plastic
fittings and a length of hose, cost is about $5.00.

The master is held on from the engine side of the firewall. It will have two
or three bolts (I usually find 2), and a fitting that goes to the clutch
slave cylinder. TIP, the open lines can be plugged with a golf tee to
prevent leakage of fluid and the introduction of dirt. This is when air will
be introduced, and you will bleed this later.

Take the new master to your work bench and connect the fittings and hose,
route the hose from the fitting(s) into the reservior and secure with a
clip. Fill the reservior with fluid and make sure the hose is submerged and
remains submerged through out the installation from this point forward.

Use an appropriate tool -- long screwdriver or ratchet extension -- to
depress the piston fully. Repeat as necessary until there are no more
bubbles coming from the end of the hose that is submerged. Repeat a few more
times just to be sure. (WHAT YOU ARE DOING -- the clutch pdeal dies not move
the piston fully inside the cylinder, so there will always be air trappped
inside causing a mushy feel to the pedal. The suitable tool you are using
will depress the piston its full travel and force out all of the air that
can get trapped inside the cylinder, giving a firm feel to the pedal. If you
ever replace a Brake Master or Clutch Master, you have to Bench Bleed or
live with less than optimum performance/feel.)

Leave the hose and fittings attached to the master, and set the master to
the vehicle. Be careful to NOT spill any brake fluid, and if you manage to
spill some, be sure to clean it completely. Brake fluid is corrosive -- this
means it eats stuff. When the master is set in place and bolted up well, you
can remove the hose and fitting, and connect the hard-pipe that goes to the
slave cylinder that is either mounted inside or outside of the bell housing.
This is the other time you will introduce air into the line, but bleeding
the line is the next step.

Bleeding the line is last. Well, adjusting is last, if adjusting is needed
or available, but bleeding is what you do now. This step takes two people.
(Indeed, the whole job takes two people if you have never done it before,
but one of you should have done it so you do not get into a
blind-leading-the-bllind situation.)

Open the bleed screw on the slave.
Depress AND HOLD the clutch pedal.
Close the bleed screw.
Release the clutch pedal.
Repeat until the air bubbles come out, then stop coming out. MAKE SURE THE
RESERVIOR DOES NOT EMPTY.

The job is not that difficult, but the description I gave ignores crap that
might be in the way, and this crap can increase the difficulty level
considerably. The pedal might be held to the MC piston by a clip or other
device, and this can be a bitch to get off. When I did my master cylinder,
the rod that was connected to the pedal fit into a cup on the cylinder, so
the cylinder came off easily without having to look for and find the clip.
H-DGuzzi - 13 Mar 2008 23:09 GMT
> > By the description you gave of the symptom set, all you need is a Clutch
> > Master Cylinder.- Hide quoted text -
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
> the rod that was connected to the pedal fit into a cup on the cylinder, so
> the cylinder came off easily without having to look for and find the clip.

Thank you a ton, Jeff! This is my weekend project!
Jeff Strickland - 14 Mar 2008 00:01 GMT
> The job is not that difficult, but the description I gave ignores crap
> that
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the rod that was connected to the pedal fit into a cup on the cylinder, so
> the cylinder came off easily without having to look for and find the clip.

Thank you a ton, Jeff! This is my weekend project!

<js>
Get a friend to help. Try to get one that knows this stuff if you don' know
it. It is easy, and this is a good project to learn on.

Be sure to do your test drive VERY slowly until you are sure the brakes
work. If the brakes give you trouble, turn the motor off and leave the gear
selector in 2nd. I'd be testing the brakes in 1st until I was sure they had
minimal function or better.

</js>
 
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