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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / April 2008What transmission in 79 F350 (auto)
Can anyone tell me what transmission is likely to be in a 1979 Ford F350 with 351 modified (400) engine. Or how to identify it.. maybe some URLS that have that kind of info where I can look it up. Starting from scratch its not so easy to figure out where to get that kind of info. On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 09:18:14 -0500, reader rearranged some electrons to say: > Can anyone tell me what transmission is likely to be in a 1979 Ford F350 > with 351 modified (400) engine. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Starting from scratch its not so easy to figure out where to get that > kind of info. If it's automatic, it's probably a C6. > On Sun, 06 Apr 2008 09:18:14 -0500, reader rearranged some electrons to > say: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > If it's automatic, it's probably a C6. Yes, automatic as I stipulated in the subject line. Thanks Were any other transmissions used on standard production vehicles at that time? ( 1979 ). That is, might it be something other than C6 and still be a standard production vehicle? > Can anyone tell me what transmission is likely to be in a 1979 Ford > F350 with 351 modified (400) engine. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Starting from scratch its not so easy to figure out where to get that > kind of info. First off - the tranny is more than likely a C6 as the other poster indicated. To find out for certain, either take the VIN to a good Ford parts person or look for a small metal tag attached to one of the pan bolts on the tranny (unless it has been removed and lost) and take that to a good Ford parts person.... Secondly (just for your information) the "M" in the 351M does not stand for Modified, nor Minneapolis, nor Montreal. It is like the "Honorable" in front of the names of the members of the House of Representatives or the "S" in Harry S. Truman - it has no meaning.... Also, the 351M and the 400 found in those years and models of Ford trucks are two different engines. I had a 1978 F150 with a 400 and a C6 until the 429 CJ went into it....The C6 handles that motor fine BTW... DaveD >Also, the 351M and > the 400 found in those years and models of Ford trucks are two different > engines. True, but they share the same block & heads. The crankshaft and pistons are different. >>Also, the 351M and >> the 400 found in those years and models of Ford trucks are two different >> engines. > > True, but they share the same block & heads. The crankshaft and pistons > are different. Almost correct...Same block, I think, different bore/stroke, I believe and different heads. Same castings for the heads but the chambers are different, IIRC...Is a moot point anyhow... The answer is 99.99 out of 100 had a C6, if an auto tranny... Good box. Strong enuf for just about anything, except a diesel or a twin cam 427. I talked with an old schoolmate who had a Boss 9 with a C6 behind it. Said it worked fine. As I recall that was the std tranny in most of the "muscle" Fords with autos... May be just my poor memory tho... Good luck with it Dave D > Almost correct...Same block, I think, different bore/stroke, I believe > and different heads. Almost correct... Same BLOCK. Same BORE. Same HEADS. 351M has different pistons. > First off - the tranny is more than likely a C6 as the other poster > indicated. To find out for certain, either take the VIN to a good > Ford parts person or look for a small metal tag attached to one of > the pan bolts on the tranny (unless it has been removed and lost) > and take that to a good Ford parts person.... Are you sure the vin tells what transmission is installed? I was trying for the lazy route. But I also expected it to be C6. > Secondly (just for your information) the "M" in the 351M does not > stand for Modified, nor Minneapolis, nor Montreal. It is like the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with a 400 and a C6 until the 429 CJ went into it....The C6 handles > that motor fine BTW... Just an aside... did you find the 429 to fell more powerful? Also do you know if the 460 from that same era can be installed in place of the 400? Will the C6 handle it too? OK, I've apparently been living on anecdotes and assumed ideas about this stuff. I thought the 351 C (Cleveland?) which stopped production in 1974 was the precursor of the 351 M and in parts stores they call it the 351 modified. I was told it was a modified 351 Cleveland and that the modification was that it was bored to `400' Then there is the smaller block 351W which was in lots of ford vans at one time. I was told the 351W was called W because of its manufacture in Windsor Canada. Is that also wrong? I called the 351W `smaller block' but again just going by sight. The 351W looks kind of narrow compared to the 351 Clevland or the 351M So I picked this stuff up from parts people and mechanics and never questioned its accuracy. Can you point me to your source for the information you've posted. Its interesting to me. One final aside: Those books that parts stores have for identifying the oil filter or air filter for your vehicle usually show the different engines found in a specific yr vehicles. Do you know if one of those is available on line anywhere? > So I picked this stuff up from parts people and mechanics and never > questioned its accuracy. > > Can you point me to your source for the information you've posted. > Its interesting to me. For other interested posters I googled this up: http://www.projectbronco.com/History/history_of_the_ford_351m.htm It runs down the sequence and history about those engines a bit. >> So I picked this stuff up from parts people and mechanics and never >> questioned its accuracy. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It runs down the sequence and history about those engines a bit. There is at least one error (or lack of information) on that page - the early 400 engines had the small block bell housing pattern, not the big block bell housing pattern. I think that was only true for 71 and some 72 models. I've never seen anyone provide a way of telling which is which without physically looking at the vehicle. Ed >>> So I picked this stuff up from parts people and mechanics and never >>> questioned its accuracy. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Ed The only way I know of (other than looking underneath) is the engine casting nr.... Dave D >> It runs down the sequence and history about those engines a bit. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and some 72 models. I've never seen anyone provide a way of telling > which is which without physically looking at the vehicle. Would it be safe to assume then that since mine is 1979 that it would have come with a 351 M that has the bell housing that fits a 429 or 460? >> So I picked this stuff up from parts people and mechanics and never >> questioned its accuracy. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > It runs down the sequence and history about those engines a bit. One thing I forgot to mention when dealing with the 429 vs 460 is - the 429 was internally balanced while the 460 was externally balanced. This means that you don't use the harmonic balancer on the 429 and you must use the balanced 429 fly wheel.....So, if you look at the 429 be sure to get the flywheel with it and the front pulley, if possible.... Dave D >> First off - the tranny is more than likely a C6 as the other poster >> indicated. To find out for certain, either take the VIN to a good [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > Are you sure the vin tells what transmission is installed? The VIN does not directly tell you the transmission installed, but a good Ford person may be able to look it up online if they have the VIN. The door tag (vehicle certification tag) will tell you the transmission installed. References you might want to look at: http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/0/056/article/Ford_Transmission_Spotters_ Guide.html http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/trans.html http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2006/05/01/hmn_feature5.html Ed > References you might want to look at: > > http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/0/056/article/Ford_Transmission_Spotters_ Guide.html > http://raceabilene.com/kelly/hotrod/trans.html > http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/2006/05/01/hmn_feature5.html Nice links, and many thanks. thought the 351 C (Cleveland?) which stopped production in 1974 was the precursor of the 351 M and in parts stores they call it the 351 modified. I was told it was a modified 351 Cleveland and that the modification was that it was bored to `400' >The 351C (Cleveland) motor was available up to and including the 1977 model >year. At least in the police package patrol cars it was. The Cleveland was >a good motor but a notorious "bad oiler". It had cam oiling problems in >it's stock form. >Also, I had an old valve cover off one of my six Broncos that clearly >stated on the tag: >351M (Modified) 400. Wish I still had it, I know someone is going to ask me >to prove it, but I can't. >Spdloader > thought the 351 C (Cleveland?) which stopped production in 1974 was > the precursor of the 351 M and in parts stores they call it the 351 > modified. I was told it was a modified 351 Cleveland and that the > modification was that it was bored to `400' It wasn't "bored" at all. It was stroked. Same bore as a 351, with a longer stroke. The "M" blocks had a higher deck height and bigger main bearings as well. I always bought into the "M=modified" story. Credible sources say it isn't so. I have no idea. The 400/351M block was always unique. The 351 "M" was a destroked 400. The 400/351M used Cleveland style heads that are interchangeable with the 351C, even if they are not identical (different valve sizes and/or combustion chamber volumes). Also, remember the 351C block was unique as well. It was "similar" to the SBF block except for some differences in water passages and the timing change cover area. It had the same bearing sizes as the 351W. And of course there were multiple 351C heads (2V, 4V, open chamber, closed chamber, etc, etc). References I like: http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/engine/fordv8/cleve/cleve.htm http://ford400.100webcustomers.com/v8enginesizes.html Ed >> thought the 351 C (Cleveland?) which stopped production in 1974 was the >> precursor of the 351 M and in parts stores they call it the 351 [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > of course there were multiple 351C heads (2V, 4V, open chamber, closed > chamber, etc, etc). The 351C and the 351W don't have the same main or cam journals, although it appears the rod journals are the same. Also there is a significant differnce in the coolant flow, the 351C has a 'dry' intake, where the SB has coolant flowing through it. > References I like: > > http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/engine/fordv8/cleve/cleve.htm > http://ford400.100webcustomers.com/v8enginesizes.html > > Ed > On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 08:22:58 -0400, C. E. White rearranged some > electrons [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > the SB > has coolant flowing through it. I am confused on the bearing sizes.... here is what I could find: SBF (221, 260, 289, 302): 2.2486" main journals 2.311" rod journals Cam bearings - 2.081"; 2.066"; 2.051"; 2.036"; 2.021 351W: 3.00" main journals 2.311" rod journals (?) 351C: 2.749" main journals 2.311" rod journals 351M/400: 3.00" main journals 2.311" rod journals Ed >> References I like: >> >> http://www.bacomatic.org/~dw/engine/fordv8/cleve/cleve.htm >> http://ford400.100webcustomers.com/v8enginesizes.html >> >> Ed >> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 08:22:58 -0400, C. E. White rearranged some >> electrons [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > > Ed That agrees with my reference. 351M/351W/400 had the same bearing sizes. But the cranks are different. The 351M/400 block is similar to the 351C block, but it's taller and the main bearing journals are larger. The cam, heads, and pistons are interchangeable between a 351C and a 400. The 351C/400 block is a different design than the small block 351W. > Are you sure the vin tells what transmission is installed? > > I was trying for the lazy route. But I also expected it to be C6. The VIN should indicate which tranny is in it...One of the letters or numbers should designate that. A good parts person will be able to work it off the VIN, the door plate, or the tag on the tranny case, if it is still there. >> Secondly (just for your information) the "M" in the 351M does not >> stand for Modified, nor Minneapolis, nor Montreal. It is like the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you know if the 460 from that same era can be installed in place of > the 400? Will the C6 handle it too? Actually the 429CJ produced quite a bit more hp than the 460. Yes the 429CJ was stronger than the 400 by several orders of magnitude. The 460 can be installed in place of the 400 with some mods. Motor mounts must be changed. Also be prepared to either lift the truck or find another oil pan for it. The 400 had a mid-pan sump while the 429 and 460 (I assume) had a front-pan sump. Ergo, after the swap, I found that there was not enuf clearance btwn the sump and the front diff. If your truck is 4wd which mine is. If not, you should be ok.... > OK, I've apparently been living on anecdotes and assumed ideas about > this stuff. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > modified. I was told it was a modified 351 Cleveland and that the > modification was that it was bored to `400' I don't believe there was enough metal in the 351C to bore it to 400. Those cylinder wall were paper thin to start with. > Then there is the smaller block 351W which was in lots of ford vans at > one time. I was told the 351W was called W because of its manufacture > in Windsor Canada. Is that also wrong? Negative. That is correct. the 351W was the small block design made in Windsor Ontario. > I called the 351W `smaller block' but again just going by sight. The > 351W looks kind of narrow compared to the 351 Clevland or the 351M Right. The 351M and the 400 were not a small block engine. > So I picked this stuff up from parts people and mechanics and never > questioned its accuracy. > > Can you point me to your source for the information you've posted. > Its interesting to me. Most of it came from experience. There is a book (old book) called "Ford Engines" IIRC...The rest comes from my eldest son who is a partsman at the local Ford dealership > One final aside: Those books that parts stores have for identifying > the oil filter or air filter for your vehicle usually show the > different engines found in a specific yr vehicles. > > Do you know if one of those is available on line anywhere? I would Google Ford Engines and look for books that might be available from Amazon, Barnes and Noble, etc.... If you have no luck, email me and I will ask my resident expert.... Send it to: dtdodson@acsalaska.net >> One final aside: Those books that parts stores have for identifying >> the oil filter or air filter for your vehicle usually show the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > ask my resident expert.... > Send it to: dtdodson@acsalaska.net I didn't think those oil/air filter listing books would be the kind of thing one could find at Barnes and Noble... but I guess they must come from somewhere. I can't recall without a trip to the auto parts store, who publishes those things. Maybe a call while he's at work, to your resident expert could establish at least who published the listings for his parts store. That sort of thing must surely be on line somewhere. It may be that access is not public though. My email address is in the `From' field of my messages and is not munged in any way if you should want to take this private, but I suspect the publisher and possible URL for one of those oil/air filter books would be of interest generally here. >> Are you sure the vin tells what transmission is installed? >> >> I was trying for the lazy route. But I also expected it to be C6. > The VIN should indicate which tranny is in it...One of the letters or > numbers should designate that. A good parts person will be able to work it > off the VIN, the door plate, or the tag on the tranny case, if it is still > there. (VIN info from this URL (for older fords): http://4wheeldrive.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ/Ya&sdn=4wheeldrive&c dn=autos&tm=23&f=00&su=p284.8.150.ip_&tt=14&bt=0&bts=0&zu=http%3A//www.medicine. wisc.edu/%7Emrm/bronco/ftvin.cgi) I should have mentioned that the door plate vin (F10YNB28151) is from a 1976 F100 so clearly the door was replaced somewhere in the life of this F350 Flatbed. I'm not really sure where the owner and earlier registrars are getting the vin used in the paper work. Running my vin (F37HNFA0340) according what is on the registration, comes back a 351 but doesn't really say which. I can see its not the 351W (Windsor) and I believe it is 351 M. [...] Harry wrote: >> Just an aside... did you find the 429 to fell more powerful? Also do ^feel [ed -hp] >> you know if the 460 from that same era can be installed in place of >> the 400? Will the C6 handle it too? > Actually the 429CJ produced quite a bit more hp than the 460. Yes the 429CJ > was stronger than the 400 by several orders of magnitude. So it would seem then that the 429 CJ would be the more desireable replacement? Or does it require more retro fitting? Further. My vin indicates my engine is a 351 and I can see it is not the 351W (windsor), so from this thread, I'm guessing either the 351 M or the 400 would be about the same task to switch for a 429 or 460. > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . The 460 can be > installed in place of the 400 with some mods. Motor mounts must be changed. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the sump and the front diff. If your truck is 4wd which mine is. If not, you > should be ok.... Mine is 2 wd but it appears almost certain to be a problem here as I can see the current engine and oil pan barely fit over the frames cross member now. It should be possible (hopefully) to redo the pan if needed. I've been a skilled tradesman and expert welder most of my life before I retired (But not much of a mechanic) and once exchanged a 351 `windsor' in a 1976 F250 van I had for a 351C from an earlier Cougar. One had a front sump and one had mid sump as I recall, so the 351C would not clear the cross member of the frame. With both engines out of the vehicles: I cut about 1/2 of the pan (horizontally) away with a high speed grinder and cutoff blade on both pans, leaving enough extra material to lap the seam a bit. I Left the 351C upper half bolted to the engine so it couldn't distort too much then by hook or by crook, like making short vertical splits where the pans differed in shape, and adding small pieces of extra sheet metal where the miss match was serious enough, I was able to weld up an oil tight new pan that fit from the two old ones spot. My main fear was that I would heat up the engine bearings too much and cause early failure, so I would weld an inch or so then turn the engine a while. Also allowing any fires inside from oil residue to burn out for lack of oxygen before continuing. That engine ran good for at least the next 2 yrs that I had it, and was still cranking when I sold the vehicle. [...] > Most of it came from experience. There is a book (old book) called "Ford > Engines" IIRC...The rest comes from my eldest son who is a partsman at the > local Ford dealership If I can tap into that wealth of experience a bit more: First let me explain briefly what I'm doing so any comments you may have can be aimed better: I'm Building up an old 79 F350 flat bed to move stuff with a medium duty (14,000 lb capacity) 16 ft. open fifth wheel utility trailer with dual elect brakes, both directions from Chicago to Savannah GA. The heaviest stuff would run about 8,000 lbs not counting the trailer so maybe 11,000 + counting the trailer. (Don't know the exact trailer weight) The old truck seems to run pretty good for its age without any work being done but seemed a bit under powered for the task. I've made one trip from GA to Chi with a different (lighter and not fifth wheel) util trailer and fairly light load, probably something like 4000 lbs counting the trailer and load. The truck handled that load ok but seemed to be fairly weak with only the light load. I have yet to pull the fifth wheel trailer with a load. But getting now to dipping into your experience.... Do you think changing out the engine for a 429CJ or 460 would make significant difference in how it pulls the load? >> Most of it came from experience. There is a book (old book) called "Ford >> Engines" IIRC...The rest comes from my eldest son who is a partsman at the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > duty (14,000 lb capacity) 16 ft. open fifth wheel utility trailer with > dual elect brakes, both directions from Chicago to Savannah GA. On slightly different aspect of this goal: The current 351 engine (In a 1979 F350 Flatbed) while it seems basically sound and has a decent compression reading all around... (not differing by more than 10 lbs). Does seem to have a heating problem. I've replaced the radiator with a new (not rebuilt) one and a rebuilt water pump. But still see what seems higher temperatures than the work or really lack of it, would dictate. I installed a 160 Degree Thermostat but with any climbing or pulling it goes to 190 or so in cool weather. I haven't had a chance to test it on a hot day yet. I'm in Gary IN and we haven't had warm weather since I got the truck. After all the new cooling related stuff I began to think maybe the temperature gauge itself was out of calibration, so I installed an after market gauge to compare. I used the non-electric type and see it reads the same as the stock one. Another odd thing is that it doesn't start to smell like a hot engine and on examining under the hood, does not appear to be on the verge of overheating, and does not `run on' when turned off.. I would have thought that with the new radiator and water pump the thing would run cool as a cucumber, staying right at the thermostat rating or cooler. I know a lean mixture or too advance of spark can cause some heating but the old thing runs too good to be running overly lean or timed to early. (No hint of pinging) Should I be seeing temperatures as high as 190-200 without really doing work with the old truck? I know a water jacket blockage could cause serious trouble but is it at all likely to be going on? I can't recall having ever run into a water jacket related heating problem. But then, I am not a mechanic or at least not a `real' mechanic. Strictly `Shade Tree' in my case. On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:32:20 -0500, reader rearranged some electrons to say: > Does seem to have a heating problem. > > I've replaced the radiator with a new (not rebuilt) one and a rebuilt > water pump. But still see what seems higher temperatures than the work > or really lack of it, would dictate. Do you have a fan shroud on the radiator? > On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:32:20 -0500, reader rearranged some electrons to > say: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Do you have a fan shroud on the radiator? Yes. What appears to be a stock shroud is in place. >> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:32:20 -0500, reader rearranged some electrons to >> say: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Yes. What appears to be a stock shroud is in place. Repalce the fan clutch with a good quality heavy duty model. Do not use a flex fan. Fan should have at least 5 blades. Whitelightning > Repalce the fan clutch with a good quality heavy duty model. Do not > use a flex fan. Fan should have at least 5 blades. > > Whitelightning Is this really likely to be the problem in a non heavy use environment. I would have thought it would cool fine with stock equipment... no? What I'm saying is this truck appears to heat up even when not being used hard or in hot weather. >>> On Tue, 08 Apr 2008 15:32:20 -0500, reader rearranged some electrons to >>> say: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Repalce the fan clutch with a good quality heavy duty model. Do not > use a flex fan. Fan should have at least 5 blades. Even the heaviest duty clutch will not be as stiff as the stock equipment which is hard bolted to the belt pulley with an aluminum spacer to position the blade near the radiator. This is a 1979 remember. |
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