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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Trucks / February 2009

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98' B4000 Clutch Bleeding

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ndccpf1 - 26 Jan 2009 13:37 GMT
Had local shop bleed in November 2008. Now thepedal was to the floor
this week and I decided to bleed myself. When I opened the bleeder
valve, out came the air bubbles and DARK fluid. Truck now shifts OK
(however release is still VERY close to the floor).

Could the fluid have turned dark from November till now (2-1/2 months)
or did the shop not eve bleed it back then ?
Jeff Strickland - 26 Jan 2009 17:09 GMT
No, the fluid would not have turned dark in that time.

And, it sounds as if you still have air in the system since the clutch grabs
close to the floor.

> Had local shop bleed in November 2008. Now thepedal was to the floor
> this week and I decided to bleed myself. When I opened the bleeder
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Could the fluid have turned dark from November till now (2-1/2 months)
> or did the shop not eve bleed it back then ?
Jeff Strickland - 26 Jan 2009 17:13 GMT
Be advised, it is possible to bleed without flushing. It is not a good
practice to take in a 10-year old truck and simply pour in a few ounces of
brake fluid while squirting the bubbles out the other end of the pipe, but
_technically_ this is bleeding.

You should claim that you paid $79.95 (or whatever) to flush the system, and
this was not done. Now, you have air in the system that needs to be removed.

> No, the fluid would not have turned dark in that time.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> Could the fluid have turned dark from November till now (2-1/2 months)
>> or did the shop not eve bleed it back then ?
ndccpf1 - 27 Jan 2009 13:02 GMT
Yeah it was more like $ 104.00 to bleed back in November. But due to
my schedule I let the local shop do it.
I'll now revert back to making time to handle myself for these types
of jobs (on the truck).
Jeff Strickland - 27 Jan 2009 22:44 GMT
> Yeah it was more like $ 104.00 to bleed back in November. But due to
> my schedule I let the local shop do it.
> I'll now revert back to making time to handle myself for these types
> of jobs (on the truck).

I'll try to describe how the hydraulic clutch works without putting you to
sleep,

The hydraulics work very much the same as the brakes work. You press the
brake pedal, this pushes fluid through the master cylinder and into the
brakes, which do what they do. If you sit at the stop light and press the
pedal, and the pedal sinks, then you are pushing fluid around internal seals
inside the master cylinder, and the brakes remain activated at whatever the
level is, but your foot slowly sinks to the floor. When you have this
happen, you need a new master cylinder. There is no leak to the outside
world, but the MC is said to be leaking anyway because the leak is internal.

The clutch works the same way, with an important exception.

The pressure plate inside the clutch plays the roll of your foot pressing on
the fluid. You can have a "leaky" clutch master cylinder (leaking
internally), and the pressure plate will not disengage from the flywheel
more than about 2mm  or 3mm. The result will be that the clutch engages the
flywheel while the pedal is still very close to the floor. If you stopped
your car or truck at the red light, and left the transmission in gear and
the clutch pedal held to the floor, it is entirely possible that the
pressure plate springs will push the fluid backward through the system and
result in the vehicle creeping, or the pedal will be far closer to the floor
after a traffic light than during a normal shift. A test is to pump the
pedal a few times, hold the pedal down, select a gear and see if the pedal
comes up from the floor relative to what you think is "normal" for today's
standard -- you said the pedal was close to the floor, this is the new
normal, if you pump the pedal a few times does the pedal come up to the old
normal?

If pumping the pedal a few times raises the engagement point from the new
normal to the old normal, then you need a new clutch master cylinder. This
may or may not be related to prior service -- my judgement is that if you
need a new MC, you needed one when you had the service done a couple of
months ago. If pumping the pedal results in the new normal remaining steady
and constant, then there could be an adjustment down on the side of the bell
housing that adjusts the clutch fork position to remove some of the play. If
you can adjust the play out of the clutch fork, the pedal will come up from
the floor. It is possible that when they serviced the fluid, they also
adjusted the play in the fork. Normally it is not necessary to adjust the
clutch fork, and it is common that the clutch fork won't have an adjustment
screw on it. But if there is an adjustment screw, the adjustment is easy to
accomplish -- it's also easy to adjust improperly.
ndccpf1 - 18 Feb 2009 13:38 GMT
I had the clutch and slave replaced last week.I did extra bleeding
myself when I got the truck back.
Truck is now much better to drive. Thanks for your input.
Nate Nagel - 26 Jan 2009 23:33 GMT
> No, the fluid would not have turned dark in that time.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> Could the fluid have turned dark from November till now (2-1/2 months)
>> or did the shop not eve bleed it back then ?

If there's air in the system now that wasn't there two months ago, it
may be time for new hydraulics.

nate

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tomcas - 27 Jan 2009 01:26 GMT
> Had local shop bleed in November 2008. Now thepedal was to the floor
> this week and I decided to bleed myself. When I opened the bleeder
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Could the fluid have turned dark from November till now (2-1/2 months)
> or did the shop not eve bleed it back then ?

There's no way it's going to turn black after 2 1/2 months. Chances are
all this black crap is the seal dust and other junk that normally
settles down by the slave cylinder but was jetted up to the master
cylinder during a reverse pressure bleed. The shops have to do a reverse
pressure bleed because the design of the master cylinder defies bleeding
by normal methods. The big mistake in reverse pressure bleeding is in
not first doing a vacuum bleed at the slave to remove all this crap.
When this crap gets jetted up to the master cylinder it can cause seal
leakage. I found the easiest and most effective way to bleed this
terribly designed master cylinder is to fill a pump oilier with brake
fluid and pump it into the intake hole at the bottom of the reservoir.
You do this while a helper slowly release the clutch pedal. You have to
hold the oilier nozzle tight into the hole, apply a bit of pressure to
the pump lever, and you will feel fluid going in as the person lets up
the pedal. Several shots usually does it.
This hydraulic design from Ford really sucks. For one, the master
cylinder is cheap, poorly designed, and dam near impossible to bleed
with normal methods. Next the fluid lines have quick connect o-ring
seals that are prone to leakage. Lastly, if the slave cylinder goes it’s
a big job to replace because the coaxial design requires removing the
transmission. I’d take an old cast steel design, with flared steel
lines, and an external slave any day over this sh.t design.
RSMuddog - 27 Jan 2009 07:26 GMT
well if I had a dollar for every manufactuerer that put the slave in the bell
housing, well.......lets just leave it at that.
why not do what ford intended?  MOST of us, get frustrated because we try to
repair something in OUR OWN WAY, which is usually the OLD way.--not me by the
way--
EVERYTHING I work on, had or has a recomended manufactures method, and that
usually works  the best.  SO, how bout I suggest to this guy, to  get a
vacuum bleeder, and use it properly, only AFTER doing a proper brake system
flush, which seems necessary after hearing about the black fluid and the age
of the vehicle.  Maybe he can tell us when the last FLUSH was done?  I bet
that IF he checks his manual, they might suggest that the regular interval
for a brake overhaul was long ago, and that included replacing the O ring?
am I getting warmer?  I bet that wasnt done?  Warmer yet?  

>> Had local shop bleed in November 2008. Now thepedal was to the floor
>> this week and I decided to bleed myself. When I opened the bleeder
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>transmission. I’d take an old cast steel design, with flared steel
>lines, and an external slave any day over this sh.t design.
ndccpf1 - 27 Jan 2009 12:59 GMT
Yes I have been doing work on Asian (and now VW Audi) cars since 1980.
I have stayed away from "American" (designed) products and now I see
why. I have done masters and slaves (external to bell housing) and
this design
really threw me. Who in engineering signed off on that design at Ford :
(
RSMuddog - 28 Jan 2009 05:01 GMT
well unfortunately I know of mitsubishi, toyota and mazda, utilizing the "in
the bellhousing" slave cylinder.  seemed to be a fad for awhile.  I'm sure it
was some idiot who invented it, but they probably figured they would make
more money on the repairs......

>Yes I have been doing work on Asian (and now VW Audi) cars since 1980.
>I have stayed away from "American" (designed) products and now I see
>why. I have done masters and slaves (external to bell housing) and
>this design
>really threw me. Who in engineering signed off on that design at Ford :
>(
 
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