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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / September 200698 Windstar Intermittent Hesitation / Bucking ?
I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem is intermittent. My mechanic has diagnosed a few things so far and a lot of money has been spent on 'repairs' but nothing he suggests fixes the problem. I've now taken it back from my mechanic and his "shotgunning" repair technique in order to try and diagnose the problem myself. So far I've replaced the Throttle Position Sensor and the Camshaft Position Sensor, and while that seemed to fix it for a day or two, the problem came back. (It's intermittent nature means it can run fine for days). There seems to be no rhyme or reason to the hesitation, it can happen when you're pulling away gently, or when you're cruising at highway speeds, or during a shift, pretty much any time. Turning overdrive off, or keeping the transmission in 1st or 2nd makes no difference. Also you can drive it really hard sometimes without the problem manifesting at all. Often I'll drive it hard 10 miles to work and it's fine, then it will act up on the way home with about 3 miles to go. As good as I can tell it feels like the engine is cutting power to the injectors or plugs all at the same time. And the loss of power can last from a fraction of a second to a whole second before it recovers. Sometimes you just feel a bit of spluttering as though only a single injector or plug isn't firing. I thought it might be a transmission problem, but I'd imagine that the revs would climb while the transmission slips, and that's not happening. I've also had poor idling on occasion, but it's very uncommon, so may not be related. Any ideas what to try next?  SignatureIA www.InstantArcade.com Home of WinROMIdent You may have to replace the computer. >I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few >months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem is [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Any ideas what to try next? > I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few > months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem is [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > I've also had poor idling on occasion, but it's very uncommon, so may > not be related. Actually... if it's a HIGH idle, it may be related. Sometimes ymptomatic of a bad wiring harness ground or engine to body ground. Try doing a tug test on all engine wiring harness while it's idling, may point out a connector that's making bad contact Are you sure there's no codes stored? SignatureYeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price you pay..DEAL with it! >> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few >> months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Are you sure there's no codes stored? There was a code a few weeks back, p0102 MAF/VAF Circuit low input. And my mechanic said I needed a new MAF at great expense. Didn't improve the problem though. I've had no other codes since. > >> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few > >> months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > my mechanic said I needed a new MAF at great expense. Didn't improve > the problem though. I've had no other codes since. No codes? It sounds like the IAC valve is dirty/worn. >>>> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few >>>> months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > > No codes? It sounds like the IAC valve is dirty/worn. Doesn't the IAC only deal with engine idle? My problem is while accelerating, when the engine is under load. Just after shifting is most common, also when pulling away from a stop it happens a lot too. Less common but still occurring is when pulling up a hill or accelerating on the highway. Maybe twice in the past 6 months I've had a rough idle for a few seconds, but that's all. The oddest part about the problem is that it will not occur for a while, even if you really thrash the engine. But other times you can be really gentle with it and it will hesitate every time you try to speed up. > >>>> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few > >>>> months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > even if you really thrash the engine. But other times you can be really > gentle with it and it will hesitate every time you try to speed up. The IAC valve has SOME engine control up to about 2K RPM. It really does sound as if yours is sticking. The IACV is also one of the things that OBD-II won't detect with a direct code. snip >>>No codes? It sounds like the IAC valve is dirty/worn. >> >>Doesn't the IAC only deal with engine idle? All this talk about a sticky or dirty IAC. What do most DIYers clean an IAC with? What is the best brand fuel additive to clean and keep it from getting messed up? Thanks… > snip > >>>No codes? It sounds like the IAC valve is dirty/worn. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > fuel additive to clean and keep it from getting messed up? > Thanks See: http://www.lincolnsonline.com/tech/00017.html >>All this talk about a sticky or dirty IAC. >> What do most DIYers clean an IAC with? What is the best brand >>fuel additive to clean and keep it from getting messed up? >>Thanks… Fuel additive won't help the IAC. At this point there is no fuel. The IAC meters air only. It picks up carbon from crankcase vapors and errant exhaust gases in the intake manifold. You "can" clean it by removing it and dousing the pintle and seat with carb cleaner a few times. Cleaning a sticky IAC is a 33/33/33 proposition. Sometimes it works great, sometimes only for a little while, sometimes it doesn't work at all. It's usually best to bite the bullet and replace it with a new one, unless you have time to kill cleaning it and then replacing it later. The sticking is usually caused by wear in the pintle shaft and bushing. >>>>>> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few >>>>>> months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > sound as if yours is sticking. The IACV is also one of the things that > OBD-II won't detect with a direct code. Here's a link to a short 5 sec video of the hesitation in action. This is a pretty mild version, it can be a lot rougher than this (i.e. longer duration and bigger dropout gaps). Thanks for the help so far, I'll go ahead and clean the IAC anyway. http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/InstantArcade/windstar/?action=view&curre nt=hesitation.flv >>>>>>> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past >>>>>>> few [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/InstantArcade/windstar/?action=view&curre nt=hesitation.flv Cleaned out the IAC, problem still remains. Don't waste any more money on a fix, its not worth it. Just live with it >>>>> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few >>>>> months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > even if you really thrash the engine. But other times you can be really > gentle with it and it will hesitate every time you try to speed up. >> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few >> months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > > Are you sure there's no codes stored? I don't suppose any of this could be caused by a faulty fuel pump or filter? I'd expect in that case there would be a more gradual drop in fuel pressure rather than an instant and complete loss of power, but I thought I'd ask just to make sure. try checking fuel pump the foot valve might be sticking >>> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few >>> months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >fuel pressure rather than an instant and complete loss of power, but I >thought I'd ask just to make sure. Number 3 plug not firing all the time. >I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few >months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem is [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Any ideas what to try next? > I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few > months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem is [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > Any ideas what to try next? have you done the obvious like plugs, wires, and fuel filter? And clean the MAF...? At your mileage it needs it anyway. Is there a certain way to drive it to make it do it for a longer period of time to set a code? If you can get it to do it long enough you will get a missfire code that will point you to the right cylinder at least. >> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few >> months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > If you can get it to do it long enough you will get a missfire code that > will point you to the right cylinder at least. It has new plugs, new wires and a brand new MAF, much to the distress of my wallet. No replacement fuel filter yet, but I wouldn't expect such harsh symptoms from a dirty filter. I just changed out the coil pack myself about an hour ago (for $64), and drove back to work. Okay so far, but then it can run fine for a while. If it's still good after a week, I'll concede that the coil pack was the culprit. I'm not holding out much hope though, so I still preemptively have replacement VSS and CPK sensors on my "to buy" list. >>> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past few >>> months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The problem [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > culprit. I'm not holding out much hope though, so I still preemptively > have replacement VSS and CPK sensors on my "to buy" list. Still broken :( I also put on a new DPFE last night. That was a horrible job (I just hope I don't have to change the EGR, it seems like you'd have to pull the motor to do that). Who's clever idea was it to put the DPFE on the rear of the motor facing the firewall? I mean, AT LEAST use attaching bolts that face the front of the engine bay where you can actually get to them. Oh well, there's another tool that's forever lost somewhere in the engine bay :( Now I'm all cut up and burned :( Anyway, the new DPFE made no discernible difference either. I have a replacement fuel filter to put on this weekend (that's one huge mutha), but I doubt it will make any difference. Is it worth trying a new fuel pressure regulator? Would a faulty one starve fuel so rapidly that the vehicle splutters and bucks? Or am I barking up the wrong tree? There's also the possibility of changing out the CKP and the VSS (although I have no idea where the VSS is on the 3.0 motor). I'd rather not spend more than I need to so if any knows if either of those wouldn't help then let me know. I'd expect a faulty CKP to throw a code at least. >>>> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past >>>> few months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > wouldn't help then let me know. I'd expect a faulty CKP to throw a code > at least. Here are a couple more videos, just idling and revving. Nothing really shows up here, apart from on the revving one, but I think I'm just hitting the rev limiter on that one (hard to tell with no tacho). Idling http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/InstantArcade/windstar/?action=view&curre nt=IMAG0005.flv Revving http://s15.photobucket.com/albums/a388/InstantArcade/windstar/?action=view&curre nt=ff2867f5.flv Since I can't seem to get it to occur in N or P I'm leaning back toward it being a transmission problem again. Is there ANY way of finding out for sure that it's the transmission? I still get the same symptoms with overdrive OFF, and also if I tell the transmission to maually stay in 1st or 2nd (with the shifter) it still does it. Does that mean it might be the transmission control solenoid (AXODE-AX4S; 4 spd; 17 bolt pan; on/off lock-up solenoid) ?? I'll try to get some better video/audio footage of the problem. The vehicle does shake/buck pretty hard when it's doing it. I'd like to chime in here. You've tossed a couple of hundred dollars at this problem by replacing parts that it didn't need and failed to fix the problem. Did you ever think that maybe it needs a trip to the dealer to fix it once and for all? What you've spent already would have likely covered the cost of the repair originally. > I'd like to chime in here. You've tossed a couple of hundred dollars at > this problem by replacing parts that it didn't need and failed to fix > the problem. Did you ever think that maybe it needs a trip to the dealer > to fix it once and for all? What you've spent already would have likely > covered the cost of the repair originally. It's already cost me over $1500 at the shop, and they were just doing the same as me, replacing things blindly and costing me money. At least when I do it the parts are a lot cheaper and the labor is "free". But yes, if I could find a mechanic that could diagnose the problem with 100% reliability before it started costing me money, then I'd be there like a shot. Unfortunately it seems that most mechanics go the easy route because it's not their money that they're burning through, and as a bonus they get to charge labor for fitting unnecessary parts. > It's already cost me over $1500 at the shop, and they were just doing > the same as me, replacing things blindly and costing me money. At least [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > it's not their money that they're burning through, and as a bonus they > get to charge labor for fitting unnecessary parts. Yes, but was this "shop" a Ford Dealer? If so, I stand corrected. If not, well.... Until 2001, I was a Ford Master Tech. If I had your vehicle in front of me I could very likely find the problem fairly quickly. To this day, I tend to choke on GM vehicles, even with the factory documentation. Given that, is it entirely fair to expect a "General Mechanic" at an Independent shop to completely understand your Ford vehicle, especially with an intermittant concern such as yours? If you are being charged for repairs that don't solve the problem, it's not the shops fault. Why are you paying the bill? >> It's already cost me over $1500 at the shop, and they were just doing >> the same as me, replacing things blindly and costing me money. At [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > If you are being charged for repairs that don't solve the problem, it's > not the shops fault. Why are you paying the bill? No, he's not a Ford Dealer, but he *was* someone I trusted to be able to understand how a car works and provide a reasonably accurate diagnosis. There's an element of trust needed in these situations since I'd expect a mechanic to be an "expert" in matching symptoms to problems. This however, was not the case. As for being charged for repairs that didn't change anything. He'd inform me that "the MAF tested bad and needs replacing" and so on, so I'd pay for a new one then collect the van. Because the problem is intermittent, it wouldn't show up for a day or so before I'd call in and take it back. Of course, he never kept any of the original parts, so I got kind of screwed over. That's why he's not touching it again. I value your advice, so I'm going to give my local ford dealer a call today, and see if I can get a diagnosis estimate. If it's just a hour's labor I'll go ahead and do it to see what I'm up against. > No, he's not a Ford Dealer, but he *was* someone I trusted to be able to > understand how a car works and provide a reasonably accurate diagnosis. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > today, and see if I can get a diagnosis estimate. If it's just a hour's > labor I'll go ahead and do it to see what I'm up against. Intermittant drivability concerns are probably THE toughest problems to properly diagnose on any vehicle. Even for Techs specifically trained in one manufacturers products. The particulars of the engine management systems, although similar in concept, vary widely between car makers. It's an impossible task for a Tech at an independent shop to be an "expert" in diagnosis of all the different systems. Most driveability symptoms are easily diagnosed, but there are always a few that will lead to head scratching even by a competent Dealership Tech. I wouldn't hold not being able to find the problem against the fellow that worked on your car. What I would hold against him is the fact that he didn't stand behind the "repair" and kept charging you for parts that you didn't need. That's just bad practice. He should have informed you that the problem was beyond his scope and offered an adjustment to the original repair price. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out. >> No, he's not a Ford Dealer, but he *was* someone I trusted to be able >> to understand how a car works and provide a reasonably accurate [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > original repair price. > Good luck, and let us know how it turns out. I agree. It was the fact he never communicated to me that he was just "guessing", and he also never experienced the problem himself but never told me that either. I'd been assuming that he'd test it, see that something was wrong, fix something, test again and it would be okay. But no, he was replacing things blindly. I still haven't had chance to contact the dealership about it, but there are a couple more bits of information that may be important. I had the fuel filter replaced, and the fuel pouring out of the old filter was black! I'm guessing it hadn't been replaced for a LONG time. New filter made no difference to the problem though. I tested the voltage to the fuel pump while the problem was happening, and it remains constant, so no electrical problem form that side. I found that I can get it to happen fairly regularly on a particular hill. If I'm on this freeway hill doing a steady 70mph, I will get 2 rapid stumbles (within 1 second) almost exactly every 4 seconds. Dunno if any of that info sheds light on anything else, but the regular stumble might point to the CKP sensor. I don't know for sure, but it might be worth trying having come this far with it. Sounds like you have over 2000 in parts ni this thing, is it worth much more than this? >>> No, he's not a Ford Dealer, but he *was* someone I trusted to be able >>> to understand how a car works and provide a reasonably accurate [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > stumble might point to the CKP sensor. I don't know for sure, but it > might be worth trying having come this far with it. Still no chk eng light? >>>> No, he's not a Ford Dealer, but he *was* someone I trusted to be >>>> able to understand how a car works and provide a reasonably accurate [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > > Still no chk eng light? Nope. I really wish it'd puke up a code so I had some trail to follow, but nothing yet. >>>>> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past >>>>> few months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The [quoted text clipped - 96 lines] > I'll try to get some better video/audio footage of the problem. The > vehicle does shake/buck pretty hard when it's doing it. Ever think of a plugged cat? I betcha that fuel filter will make a difference. I would have started there, because i experienced the same thing. >>>> I have a 98 Windstar 3.0 with 128k miles on it, and over the past >>>> few months it has had a problem with hesitation and bucking. The [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > wouldn't help then let me know. I'd expect a faulty CKP to throw a code > at least. Still no closer to fixing this yet. I don't have the money right now to let the dealer diagnose it. Ruled out the power to the fuel pump (and therefore the impact switch thing), by monitoring the voltage to the pump. I was getting a pretty steady 13.8v and it didn't fluctuate at all when hesitating. I have also ruled out the IAC, since I tried it with the IAC unplugged and still had the intermittent hesitation. It's not easy to drive without the IAC, so I ended up letting the revs drop too far and stalling it which threw a code. Gonna have to go to autozone and borrow their reader again to erase it. Have you tried to buy a $15 fuel pressure gauge and actually check your fuel pressure Did you replace the filter ???? (didn't read the follow-ups for a while) > Still no closer to fixing this yet. I don't have the money right now to > let the dealer diagnose it. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > drop too far and stalling it which threw a code. Gonna have to go to > autozone and borrow their reader again to erase it. > Have you tried to buy a $15 fuel pressure gauge and actually check your fuel > pressure > > Did you replace the filter ???? > (didn't read the follow-ups for a while) I haven't tried a pressure gauge yet, since I have no way of reading it when the problem happens (only when driving), so I didn't see much point unless the pressure is consistently low (which doesn't make sense because when it's not bucking, it can be driven hard without problems). I DID have the filter replaced. I went to jiffy lube because I couldn't get enough clearance to do it myself. I supplied my own filter and had it fitted for $35. The mech showed me the old one, and poured out BLACK gasoline, it was really horrible looking so certainly needed replacing. I have the exact same problem as you. I have a 2001 model. Did the fuel filter change do the trick? |
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