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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / October 2006

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Shorted Diode...need info

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sleepdog@optonline.net - 15 Oct 2006 05:46 GMT
Just wondering if anyone knows the answer to this one

1990 Escort GT, I tested the diode for the AC Clutch coil and it comes
up shorted.  Also checked resistance and the same both ways @1.7 ohms.

Would this be a 1 amp, 400v or maybe a 6 amp 400v diode?  Can't find
much in the way of information googling.

Thanks
Tom Adkins - 15 Oct 2006 06:04 GMT
> Just wondering if anyone knows the answer to this one
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Thanks

 A 1N4007 should be ok if I recall correctly. Less than $1 at Radio Shack.
SC Tom - 15 Oct 2006 13:23 GMT
> Just wondering if anyone knows the answer to this one
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Thanks

As long as the diode is still in the circuit, you'll be reading the
resistance of the coil itself. One end needs to be isolated, or the diode
removed, in order to get a proper reading. Once removed, it should read open
in one direction and short in the other (or, at least, a high resistance in
one direction and little or no resistance in the other).

SC Tom
sleepdog@optonline.net - 15 Oct 2006 14:43 GMT
> As long as the diode is still in the circuit, you'll be reading the
> resistance of the coil itself. One end needs to be isolated, or the diode
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> SC Tom

Forgot to mention, it is removed, I have the harness out of the
vehicle.

Thanks
zwsdotcom@gmail.com - 15 Oct 2006 18:58 GMT
> 1990 Escort GT, I tested the diode for the AC Clutch coil and it comes
> up shorted.  Also checked resistance and the same both ways @1.7 ohms.

What marking is on the diode?

This is just a snubber, I think.
Jim Warman - 15 Oct 2006 19:24 GMT
Not sure of the term "snubber" unless we're talking oil patch.... usually
called a "clamping" diode oin the trade, it's job is to provide a path for
the inductive current produced when the AC clutch coil is de-energized. Same
deal???

>> 1990 Escort GT, I tested the diode for the AC Clutch coil and it comes
>> up shorted.  Also checked resistance and the same both ways @1.7 ohms.
>
> What marking is on the diode?
>
> This is just a snubber, I think.
sleepdog@optonline.net - 15 Oct 2006 19:40 GMT
> Not sure of the term "snubber" unless we're talking oil patch.... usually
> called a "clamping" diode oin the trade, it's job is to provide a path for
> the inductive current produced when the AC clutch coil is de-energized. Same
> deal???

Yes it just prevents spikes to the rest of the car when the coil field
collapses when the clutch is de-energized.

Thanks
zwsdotcom@gmail.com - 16 Oct 2006 17:48 GMT
> Not sure of the term "snubber" unless we're talking oil patch.... usually
> called a "clamping" diode oin the trade, it's job is to provide a path for
> the inductive current produced when the AC clutch coil is de-energized. Same

Yes, same thing. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snubber>
sleepdog@optonline.net - 15 Oct 2006 19:39 GMT
On Oct 15, 1:58 pm, zwsdot...@gmail.com wrote:
> sleep...@optonline.net wrote:
> > 1990 Escort GT, I tested the diode for the AC Clutch coil and it comes
> > up shorted.  Also checked resistance and the same both ways @1.7 ohms.What marking is on the diode?
>
> This is just a snubber, I think.

I tried taking it apart, but it nothing left of the component inside,
just bits.  Looking for the volts/amps spec for this diode so I can
replace it with a similar harness or just the diode.  Anybody???

Ford part on the wiring diagram is EOVB-14A604-AA

Thanks
Jim Warman - 15 Oct 2006 19:59 GMT
Why not just hard wire a diode across the harness near the connector?

> On Oct 15, 1:58 pm, zwsdot...@gmail.com wrote:
>> sleep...@optonline.net wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Thanks
sleepdog@optonline.net - 15 Oct 2006 22:59 GMT
> Why not just hard wire a diode across the harness near the connector?

Sure I'd love to, I can pick one up at Radio Shack in five minutes...
but which one???  They're not all the same, what's the forward voltage
need to be, what's the amperage limit need to be... if I knew I'd be on
my way.

Thanks!
Rodan - 16 Oct 2006 01:15 GMT
Sure I'd love to hardwire a diode across the harness near the
connector, but which one?  They're not all the same.   What's
the forward voltage need to be, what's the amperage limit
need to be... if I knew I'd be on my way.
__________________________________________________

Forward voltage is fixed by the diode itself at about 0.6 volts.

Reverse voltage capability should be greater than 12 volts.  40V is okay.

Forward current capability should be at least the coil current.  Measure
   the coil resistance and calculate the current at 12 volts.  Current
   going through the operating coil is what the diode has to bleed off.

Connect the diode cathode (minus) lead to the coil +12V wire.
Connect the diode anode (plus) lead to the coil ground wire.

Good luck.

Rodan.
sleepdog@optonline.net - 16 Oct 2006 17:14 GMT
> Forward voltage is fixed by the diode itself at about 0.6 volts.
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Rodan.

I forgot about the forward voltage, I had my terms screwed up in my
frantic quest for knowledge.

Ok, coil resistance is ~4 ohms, voltage is about ~12, so the coil needs
to bleed off about ~3 amps.  Reading the diagnostic literature it says
the coil should draw ~3.5 amps, so figure 4 amps to be on the safe
side.

So I need at least a 4 amp diode to snub the coil field collapsing.
Now a standard 6 amp diode that can handle up to 400 volts should do
the job?  Would that theoretically or practically "snub" the collapsing
field to protect the rest of the car's circuitry?  Assuming more is not
necessarily better in this case, but at least not detrimental.

Thanks for the electronics lesson!
Backyard Mechanic - 16 Oct 2006 18:08 GMT
>> Forward voltage is fixed by the diode itself at about 0.6 volts.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> Thanks for the electronics lesson!

But you only got 50% on the test!

1. YOu dont get more power out than you put in!!!!
2. Remember the coil 'engaged' current does NOT pass through the diode

3. You know that the nominal (theoretical) collapse voltage is 10 x
input... so that is 150 volts (rounded)
- In FACT the rev voltage at 50 would work fine, because it will only see
15 VRev for all intents... but to be safe, always buy for instantaneous
application which would be 150, rounded up to 200 v

AND given the 10x voltage..
4. Doesnt it make sense that nominal collapse current is one-tenth the
input?
5. And when you look at the spec sheets, the nominal current rating is
for CONSTANT!!!
PEAK current .. for the 1 amp 1N40xx series is THIRTY AMPS
- NO current passes through the diode when clutch is engaged, and only
for a millisecond or several while voltage is removed.

So if you see a handy diode that's rated at 2 or 3 amps at 200v, and it's
got a brand on it... it should be more than enough.  Certainly dont need
a 6 amper.

Signature

Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
you pay..DEAL with it!

sleepdog@optonline.net - 16 Oct 2006 20:30 GMT
> > But you only got 50% on the test!
>
> 1. YOu dont get more power out than you put in!!!!
> 2. Remember the coil 'engaged' current does NOT pass through the diode

<snip>

I'm really not getting all this long answer stuff.  I'm always up for
learning something new but this is really taxing my brain.

> So if you see a handy diode that's rated at 2 or 3 amps at 200v, and it's
> got a brand on it... it should be more than enough.  Certainly dont need
> a 6 amper.

Ok, thanks!
Rodan - 16 Oct 2006 20:27 GMT
    Ok, coil resistance is ~4 ohms, voltage is about ~12, so the coil
    needs to bleed off about ~3 amps.  The diagnostic literature says
    the coil should draw ~3.5 amps, figure at least 4 amps to be safe.
    So should a 6 amp 400 volt diode do the job?

Certainly, with a margin of safety.    As "Backyard Mechanic"
points out:  Diode current ratings are for CONSTANT current.
The 1 amp 1N40xx series can handle 30 amps of PEAK current.
The diode operates milliseconds each time the coil is shut off.
So if you find diode rated at 2 or 3 amps at 200v, it should
be more than enough.  Certainly don't need a 6 amper.

    Would that "snub" the collapsing field to protect the rest of the
    car's circuitry?   I am assuming that more is not necessarily better
    but at least not detrimental.

Certainly, with a margin of safety.

NOTE:   The voltage spike from the disconnected coil will try to
rise infinitely to maintain the coil current, until some current path
is found.   It could be through a suppression diode, a resistor,
a capacitor, an ionized spark gap between the relay points, or
a breakdown of insulation in the coil, wire harness or controller
circuit board.  Without protection the usual path is the relay
point gap.  Controller boards are built with protection against
voltage spikes, but sometimes one gets through.

Actually, because your existing diode is shorted and not open,
it is still providing voltage suppression by acting as a resistor.
The problem is that it draws unwanted extra current during coil
engagement, and it may eventually open up.

Good luck.

Rodan.
Bruce L. Bergman - 16 Oct 2006 04:15 GMT
>> Why not just hard wire a diode across the harness near the connector?
>
>Sure I'd love to, I can pick one up at Radio Shack in five minutes...
>but which one???  They're not all the same, what's the forward voltage
>need to be, what's the amperage limit need to be... if I knew I'd be on
>my way.

 1N4006 or 1N4007 is the workhorse of diodes.  They work as general
purpose rectifiers and snubbers, they're rugged (rated at 1A but will
handle 30A peaks) and they're made by the millions so they're dirt
cheap.  When all else fails, that's what I grab.

 The 1N4006 is 800V PRV, and the 1N4007 is 1000V PRV, and either one
will handle the kick from all but the biggest relays and solenoids.

    --<< Bruce >>--
do_not_spam_me@my-deja.com - 16 Oct 2006 01:05 GMT
> 1990 Escort GT, I tested the diode for the AC Clutch coil and it comes
> up shorted.  Also checked resistance and the same both ways @1.7 ohms.
>
> Would this be a 1 amp, 400v or maybe a 6 amp 400v diode?

If the diode is only 1/8" diameter, it could be rated for up to 2.5A.
If it's more like 1/4", it could be up to 6A.  The worst-case I know of
is for a CRT TV horizontal output damper diode, which is rated for
around 1500V (curent rating is typically 3A).  Ignition coil primaries
can peak at up to 600V.  I'd want at least 3-4A.  If you're paranoid,
wire a relay between the clutch and A/C control, remembering to include
a diode across the relay's own coil (1A, 500V is OK).  Don't take
chances with the clutch coil since the car's computer may drive it
directly.
Backyard Mechanic - 16 Oct 2006 03:10 GMT
> Just wondering if anyone knows the answer to this one
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Thanks

The usual design procedure for high current damping diodes is

greater than 10x primary voltage, so 200 Volts

and current rating = 15 to 20 % of primary current

Signature

Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
you pay..DEAL with it!

metoo - 16 Oct 2006 03:54 GMT
try a P600M  heres a link
http://www.rfparts.com/diode.html#rectifier_diodes

I would put a  0.1 UFD 500 volt ceramic capacitor across the dide to
pass the first part of the surge.
http://www.rfparts.com/caps_ceramicdisk.html

http://www.web-tronics.com/21fa010.html

>> Just wondering if anyone knows the answer to this one
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>and current rating = 15 to 20 % of primary current
Backyard Mechanic - 16 Oct 2006 15:06 GMT
http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/1/N/4/0/1N4002.shtml

Dont overcomplicate it...Note the peak non-repetitive current for a 1A
1N40xx  is 30A.

Typical 'flyback' coil current shouldnt be more than 1.5A for a very short
time.

The .1ufd is a good idea, all things perfect, you should never see 50v let
alone 200, but 200 volt rating on either should be fine

As to why your diode failed in the first place, a poor contact or
connection resutling in chatter MIGHT fry a typical damping diode.

unusual one of those 'short', long term... usually they short, then open
due to high current.

Signature

Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
you pay..DEAL with it!

metoo - 18 Oct 2006 02:35 GMT
Just because you seem like a nice guy that is willing to accept info
look at this link
http://www.naisweb.com/e/relaye/mech_eng/mech_eng_rtia/idapm4w.html

it is to a small 12 volt relay coil, I would take a WAG that the ac
clutch coil is a lot bigger.
I remember in my Math classes for a EE degree that when you do some
calculus on basic current flow the numbers during the first
Milliseconds are impressive but the first Microsecond amps just blew
me away I can't believe that many electrons can go trough a wire
during that first few time period. We don't need to  do the math  I
recommended them over-kill parts cause they were cheap, easy to find
and by the way my cap was .01  I know I posted .1 UFD's but this
stupid keyboard types what I press not what I want to press. (:-}]

Mike

>http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheets_pdf/1/N/4/0/1N4002.shtml
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>unusual one of those 'short', long term... usually they short, then open
>due to high current.
 
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