 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / October 2006New F150's
Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) EXTREMELY friggin low? Why would ford make this vehicle so damn low! The rangers have more clearance than the fullsize!!! > Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) > EXTREMELY friggin low? > > Why would ford make this vehicle so damn low! The rangers have more > clearance than the fullsize!!! "NHTSA" Rob >> Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) >> EXTREMELY friggin low? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Rob Heaven forbid someone forcing trucks to be safer. What a horror. jeff Jeffy.... this might come as a surprise..... it ain't the truck that's unsafe.... it ain't the car, it ain't the gun, the knife, the hammer nor the pair of scissors that your momma always told you not to run with. Take a mechanical device.... ANY mechanical device.... give it to the "right" person and it turns into a deadly weapon. Face it, little buddy, the human race is flawed... some of us to the point of being too stupid to be allowed to breed. When we all finally realize that we are flawed and respond accordingly, we wont have to blame our stupidity on our tools.... >>> Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) >>> EXTREMELY friggin low? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > jeff > Jeffy.... this might come as a surprise..... it ain't the truck that's > unsafe.... it ain't the car, it ain't the gun, the knife, the hammer nor [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> jeff Can we get an amen!!! > Jeffy.... this might come as a surprise..... it ain't the truck that's > unsafe.... it ain't the car, it ain't the gun, the knife, the hammer nor > the pair of scissors that your momma always told you not to run with. Take > a mechanical device.... ANY mechanical device.... give it to the "right" > person and it turns into a deadly weapon. BUT - people do have accidents - even smart, careful, well meaning people. Accidentally running into the side of a Corolla with a jacked up truck is more likely to cause injury to the passengers of the Corolla that running into the same vehicle with a bumper that doesn't go over the side guard beams in the door. A lower tuck is less likely to roll over in an emergency maneuver (possibly caused by a real idiot, and not the driver of the truck). In must cases I am all for individual freedom, however, there are limits. When your choices endanger me and others, then I believe the Government needs to make reasonable rules. Ed The government does. They are called traffic laws. If everybody obeyed them there would be far fewer 'accidents.' ;) mike hunt >> Jeffy.... this might come as a surprise..... it ain't the truck that's >> unsafe.... it ain't the car, it ain't the gun, the knife, the hammer nor [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Ed Statistic show one is less likely to be killer or injured in a light truck than in a small car. mike hunt >>> Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) >>> EXTREMELY friggin low? [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > jeff >>> Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) >>> EXTREMELY friggin low? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > jeff Heaven forbid they make a truck for WORK! Trucks werent designed for driving to the grocery store... they were designed for WORK... and when these trucks bottom out on small rocks in the woods, we have a problem. > Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) > EXTREMELY friggin low? > > Why would ford make this vehicle so damn low! The rangers have more > clearance than the fullsize!!! Perhaps because Ford is tired of being sued by people who expect a truck to handle like a passenger vehicle. My guess is that 90% of F150 owners never drive them on anything but paved roads. I've been thinking about something like this recently. I've been looking into buying new tires and find myself looking at the tires at a lot of vehicles. I see tons of SUV's and trucks with all terrain style big tread tires and I'm wondering, whats the point. Odds are the worst conditions any of these vehicles will see is a dirt road why not just get some all seasons like a passenger car and cut down on some road noise. >> Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) >> EXTREMELY friggin low? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to handle like a passenger vehicle. My guess is that 90% of F150 owners > never drive them on anything but paved roads. Welcome to the world of the 4 wheel penis extender..... if you have microscopic cajones..... if you have doubts about your sexuality.... if you wait until nobody is in the shower at the gym before you enter.... if it looks like you are a victim of steroid over-use.... if your loving bride giggles when you take off your shorts - you can always buy a lifted 4X4 with big tires (even though the roughest ground you will ever drive on is the speed bump in the downtown parkade). We recently acquired an 06 H3 from the auction... it has some minor issues (to be expected with all of 7000 kms on the clock, yeah?). On the front and on the back are these MANLY tow hooks..... I'm talkin' D8 Cat earthmover kinda towhooks..... Lift this puppy up on a hoist and we see a pansy assed little all wheel drive wannabe... I'd be scared to take this thing over that speed "mountain" at the parkade.... But MAN!!!! Lookee them tow hooks.... Anyone with towhooks like that has GOT to have a "package" to be admired...... An' damn.... it is bigger than one o' them pansy assed Corvettes.... > and we see a pansy assed little all wheel drive wannabe... I'd be > scared to take this thing over that speed "mountain" at the > parkade.... okay, WTF is a 'parkade'?? JP  Signature--------------------------------------- Save up to 20% on your Long Distance! Try my 'best rate calculator' to see your savings!:: http://billzilla.com/jonrpatrick ............... Free eBook shows you the exact methods I used to get out of debt, painlessly: http://www.freewebs.com/freedomfromdebt -------------------------------------- "Jon R. Patrick" > "Jim Warman" <mechanic@telusplanet.net> wrote in > > and we see a pansy assed little all wheel drive wannabe... I'd be > > scared to take this thing over that speed "mountain" at the > > parkade.... > > okay, WTF is a 'parkade'?? Generically, a "multi-level outdoor parking facility". http://images.google.ca/images?q=parkade&hl=en aka: Car park, Parking structure, Parking garage, Parking deck... etc. Depends on where you live. Isn't envy one of the deadly sins? ;) mike hunt > Welcome to the world of the 4 wheel penis extender..... if you have > microscopic cajones..... if you have doubts about your sexuality.... if [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > An' damn.... it is bigger than one o' them pansy assed Corvettes.... >Welcome to the world of the 4 wheel penis extender..... if you have >microscopic cajones..... if you have doubts about your sexuality.... if you [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >An' damn.... it is bigger than one o' them pansy assed Corvettes.... I've never understood why some people get so worked up over what other people choose to drive. Anyone who is secure themselves would not feel so threatened by the choices of others. The head shrinks will tell you it is more commonly know as envy. LOL mike hunt >>Welcome to the world of the 4 wheel penis extender..... if you have >>microscopic cajones..... if you have doubts about your sexuality.... if [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > people choose to drive. Anyone who is secure themselves would not > feel so threatened by the choices of others. Do you believe a vehicle with a center of gravity an inch or two higher than another is more likely to rollover? If you do how do you explain the fact that six wheelers are not rolling over more often than cars or SUVs? mike hunt >> Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) >> EXTREMELY friggin low? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > to handle like a passenger vehicle. My guess is that 90% of F150 owners > never drive them on anything but paved roads. > Do you believe a vehicle with a center of gravity an inch or two higher > than another is more likely to rollover? If you do how do you explain the > fact that six wheelers are not rolling over more often than cars or SUVs? All other factors being equal (track width, wheelbase, overall weight, tires, etc.), a vehicle with a CG one or two inches higher is more likely to roll over. Semis roll over all the time. However, semis generally have a wider track that passenger vehicles and are driven by professional drivers who have enough sense to understand the limitations of their vehicles. Most vehicles will spin out before they turn over unless you do some really extreme maneuvers (quick changes in direction), there is an obstruction involved, or there is another vehicle involved. Ed No vehicle other than a two wheeler is prone to rollover, none. The difference in the center of gravity of a few inches is negligible. To make a vehicle roll it needs to be tipped up over 45 degrees. Watch movies or TV and you will see the will spin 360 degrees and do not roll, To make one roll the FX guys must run one side up on a four foot ramp. Striking an object and rolling is a result of inertia rather than the center of gravity. ;) mike hunt >> Do you believe a vehicle with a center of gravity an inch or two higher >> than another is more likely to rollover? If you do how do you explain [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ed > No vehicle other than a two wheeler is prone to rollover, none. The > difference in the center of gravity of a few inches is negligible. To [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Striking an object and rolling is a result of inertia rather than the > center of gravity. Define "prone" to rollover. Vehicles roll over all the time. You don't need a four foot ramp either. I've seen a VW Bug roll over in a flat parking lot - it didn't even hit the curbing. Get almost any vehicle sliding sideways and then have it contact something no higher than a curb, and tell me you can't roll one over. And if you think a higher CG doesn't make this more likely, then you need to take a remedial physics course. Tipping a vehicle 45 degrees is not required. If the COG is high enough, you can tip one that is not moving by tipping it at relatively small angles. Do a diagram showing the CG relative to the wheels. As soon as you tip the vehicle enough for the CG to be outside the wheel edges, it will roll on over. For instances, an F150 has a 67 inch track. For the vehicle to be statically stable at a tilt angle of 45 degrees, the CG must be no higher than approximately 33.5". I would guess that as delivered the CG is less than 30 inches above the ground. For a 30 inch height, the truck should remain stable until the tilt angle is around 48 degrees (probably less, since tires flex). However, if your raise the CG to 40 inches (and don't change the track width), the truck would roll over if you tilt it to the side at an angle of around 40 degrees. Raise it to 50 inches (again without changing the track width), and the truck would roll over on it's side if you tilted it sideways at little more than 30 degrees. Dynamic situations are more complicated. In general tire loose traction before the forces are high enough to tip a vehicle over on a flat surface. However, if you are doing extreme maneuvers, you can induce a rollover by first shifting the CG one way as the suspension responds to the maneuver and then back the other way. Inertia is at play here. But again, the higher the CG, the more likely this type of rollover is (all other things being equal). Ed Look it up in a dictionary. You are entitled to you own opinion but not your own facts. I worked as an automotive design engineer for thirty years. The center of gravity of a vehicle is located at a point below the center line of the mass of the drive train. If what you believe were actually true we should expect to see a few six wheelers on their side every day. ;) mike hunt >> No vehicle other than a two wheeler is prone to rollover, none. The >> difference in the center of gravity of a few inches is negligible. To [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Define "prone" to rollover. Vehicles roll over all the time. You don't > need a four foot ramp either. > > Ed > Look it up in a dictionary. You are entitled to you own opinion but not > your own facts. I worked as an automotive design engineer for thirty [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > mike hunt I am not sure what a "six wheeler" is. Are you talking about pickups like an F350 with dual rear wheels? We do see trucks on there side almost every day. There is no way you can claim that every truck loaded/unloaded truck has a CG below "the center line of the mass of the drive train." That statement doesn't even make sense. Are you trying to say the CG of the total vehicle is lower than the CG of the drive train? This may or may not be true for an unloaded truck. For a six wheeler loaded with rock, I am sure it is false. On the other hand, it you are talking about a pick-up with dual rear wheels, then the effective track width has been greatly increased, and this will reduce the tendency to roll over. For older F150's, the file available at http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/vrtc/ca/nhtsa_inertia_database_english.xls list CG locations. They range from 25.5" to 29.9" http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/regrev/evaluate/809868/pages/IntroBack.html http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/regrev/evaluate/EP2004/EP200418.html http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/studies/NASRoll/NASRolloverStudy.html http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/vrtc/ca/rollover.htm Ed You comment often about a lot of things you appear not to be sure of but still like to express an opinion ;) mike >> Look it up in a dictionary. You are entitled to you own opinion but not >> your own facts. I worked as an automotive design engineer for thirty [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > I am not sure what a "six wheeler" is. > Ed > You comment often about a lot of things you appear not to be sure of but > still like to express an opinion ;) Well I guess we make a fine pair. You seem sure of a lot of things that are not supported by facts. Now educate me - what is a "six wheeler." It is not a term I hear. Is it a duallie - two front tires on a single front axle and four rear tires on a single rear axle with the tires arranged in pairs on either side or is a "six wheeler" two front tires on an axle and two rear axles with two tires each, or what? I know what a duallie is, a sixteen wheeler, a ten wheeler, etc. I've just never heard of a six wheeler (well except for the old formula one six wheeler - but I am sure you are not talking about that). Ed > No vehicle other than a two wheeler is prone to rollover, none. The > difference in the center of gravity of a few inches is negligible. To make [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > object and rolling is a result of inertia rather than the center of gravity. > ;) You showed limited knowledge here Mike. You are talking a static roll over situation. Dynamic, when centrifugal force is involved and the bottom of a wheel on the outside goes up against resistance such as a road shoulder or curb, etc. is what normally causes roll over. A high center of gravity makes dynamic roll over more likely, just a inch higher is all it takes. If you believe those set up movies and vehicle ads you believe anything. Unfortunately many do believe the ads and buy a vehicle that gets them into roll over problems. You are entitled to you own opinion but I guess you missed the part about the effect of inertia in a rollover. The fact that the center of gravity is an inch or so higher has little effect ;) mike hunt >> No vehicle other than a two wheeler is prone to rollover, none. The >> difference in the center of gravity of a few inches is negligible. To [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Unfortunately many do believe the ads and buy a vehicle that gets them > into roll over problems. > You are entitled to you own opinion but I guess you missed the part about > the effect of inertia in a rollover. The fact that the center of gravity > is an inch or so higher has little effect ;) > > mike hunt Of course raising the CG has an effect. The magnitude of the effect depends on the intial CG, the wheelbase and many other factors. However, if all other factors are equal, raising the CG will increase the risk of a rollover. Ed So will pissing in the ocean ;) mike hunt >> You are entitled to you own opinion but I guess you missed the part about >> the effect of inertia in a rollover. The fact that the center of gravity [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ed > So will pissing in the ocean ;) > > mike hunt Trivializing this is just encouraging people to think that jacking up truck is not a safety concern. It seems to me your are being obtuse for reasons I can't imagine. Raising the CG make a vehicle less stable (all other factor being equal). That is a fact. Claiming otherwise is silly. Ed > Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) > EXTREMELY friggin low? > > Why would ford make this vehicle so damn low! The rangers have more > clearance than the fullsize!!! Low? Ground clearance is a minimum of 8 inches on the 2006 F150 2WD short bed and, guess what, it is a tremendous 8.3 inches on the 4x4 (all because of the tires). The cartoon cutout Dodge Ram 4x2 has a HUGE 7.4" minimum clearance (and the 4x4 actually has less at 7.3"). You are confusing styling with reality. I have never been able to understand why people want jacked up trucks. Unless you change the wheel size to move the rear axle up, jacking up the body and frame isn't going to improve ground clearance in way that will affect your ability to use the truck as intended. And raising truck's body makes it less useful and less safe. One of the primary reasons I did not want a new F150 4x4 is because the sides of the bed are too high. It makes loading things from the side of the truck difficult. Raising the body of a truck makes it less safe for you and others on the road. A higher body moves the center of gravity up, making the truck less stable in turns. Raising the front bumpers makes it more likely that you will override the side door beams or bumpers of a car in an accident, increasing the chances of injury for the people in a car. And many trucks are so high, they are difficult to get in and require side steps, which effectively move the body height back down to the same as the Ford 2WD, or even lower. Truck buyers need to carefully consider why they want a ridiculously high truck. Why do you want to do that? Is it a "look at me, I am special sort of thing?" Or is it a way of intimidating other drivers? I'd love to hear a rational reason for wanting a very high truck. Ed > Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) > EXTREMELY friggin low? > > Why would ford make this vehicle so damn low! The rangers have more > clearance than the fullsize!!! Because some of us actually use truck to WORK, and it's a shorter lift for loading. Also the trailer might actually tow LEVEL Signature-------------------------------------------------------- Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read RV and Camping FAQ can be found at http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv hrm, never had one of these sorts of jobs, good point. I suppose the lower bed helps the ole lower back. >> Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) >> EXTREMELY friggin low? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Because some of us actually use truck to WORK, and it's a shorter lift > for loading. Also the trailer might actually tow LEVEL Apparently a lot of truck buyers like the higher sides on the F150, they buy more of them than any other truck. ;) mike hunt > hrm, never had one of these sorts of jobs, good point. I suppose the lower > bed helps the ole lower back. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Because some of us actually use truck to WORK, and it's a shorter lift >> for loading. Also the trailer might actually tow LEVEL > Apparently a lot of truck buyers like the higher sides on the F150, they > buy more of them than any other truck. ;) But for how much longer? My family has owned nothing but Ford trucks for over 50 years. But when I needed to replace my trusty old F150, I wouldn't even consider the "new" F150. The bed sides are ridiculously high. If you get a 4x4, you have to have a step ladder to put anything in the truck's bed. I suppose this is fine for people who cover the bed with a hard tonneau cover and drive the vehicle around town, but for someone who actually has to use the truck as a truck, it sucks. Like I said before, if I wanted a Chevrolet Truck, I would have bought a Chevrolet truck. Ford out sold Chevrolet becasue they built better trucks, not becasue they made trucks that were thrird rate cars. Apparently they have forgotten this. I think they should just admit that F150s are just cars and rename them Taurus. The only thing that will save Ford is that they still sell F250s and the fact that Toyota still can't figure out how to build a decent full size pick-up. Ed The F150 is approaching 30 years as the number one seller mike >> Apparently a lot of truck buyers like the higher sides on the F150, they >> buy more of them than any other truck. ;) > > But for how much longer? >> Apparently a lot of truck buyers like the higher sides on the F150, they >> buy more of them than any other truck. ;) [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Ed THANK YOU ED! I agree totally. I too am not pleased with the toyota "fullsize" trucks, but i somehow can't bring myself to go buy a chevrolet, even though they work better, have more comfortable seats and have a better ride. I will probally end up looking more towards an F250. >> Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) >> EXTREMELY friggin low? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Because some of us actually use truck to WORK, and it's a shorter lift > for loading. Also the trailer might actually tow LEVEL Depends where you work. This is the first pickup i've ever seen that is not made to travel in the woods. So now they need to make two 2wd models, one lower for you people who WORK in urban spaces and drive on the pavement and a second model for people who WORK in the woods. Do you believe a vehicle with 16" wheels has more ground clearance than one with 17" wheels and larger tires? mike > Does anyone else find the new F150's (2wd is what im familliar with) > EXTREMELY friggin low? > > Why would ford make this vehicle so damn low! The rangers have more > clearance than the fullsize!!! > Do you believe a vehicle with 16" wheels has more ground clearance than > one with 17" wheels and larger tires? It could. It depends on more than just the wheel size. Now if they both have the same type of suspension (type, pumpkin size etc.) and body, then 17" wheels with the correct size tires should have more ground clearance than 16 wheels with comparable size tires. In other words, P235R70-17 tires have a larger diameter than P235R70-16 tires and should provide greater ground clearance. However wheel size is only part of the equation when determining ground clearance. For example, P265/70R15 tires have a greater diameter than P245/65R17 and would therefore provide greater ground clearance, all other factors being equal. If you start considering other factors (independent suspension versus stick axles, body parts, steps, etc., etc.) it is very easy to find vehicles with 16" or 15" wheels with greater ground clearance than vehicles with 17" wheels. Ed Get real mike >> Do you believe a vehicle with 16" wheels has more ground clearance than >> one with 17" wheels and larger tires? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Ed > Get real > > mike In what way was I not "real?" It is very easy to find tires mounted on 15 inch rims that have a greater diameter than different tires mounted on 1 inch rims. Cross section width and aspect ratio must e considered when calculating the overall outside diamete. For a stick axle, the outside diamter of the tire is the most improtant factor in determining ground clearance. Ed What I said in my post was a larger wheel with a larger tire. The fact is contrary to the poster observation, no stock Ranger in any configuration, is the ground clearance lower than an F150 of a similar type, period. mike >> Get real >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ed > What I said in my post was a larger wheel with a larger tire. The fact > is contrary to the poster observation, no stock Ranger in any > configuration, is the ground clearance lower than an F150 of a similar > type, period. > > mike I think you need to reword this statement. Are you trying to say No Stock Ranger in any configuration has greater ground clearance that any F150 of a similar type? And by similar type do you mean any 4x4 Ranger compared to any 4x4 F150? Are you sure this is supported by the facts? You might want to review the data at https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/non-html/2007/bb_pdf/99.pdf and https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/non-html/2007/bb_pdf/79.pdf / https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/non-html/2007/bb_pdf/80.pdf and verify you are making a true statement. At least this time, you are mostly correct if you take a very narrow definition of what "similar type" means. The Ranger with the greatest ground clearance (4x4 FX4 Level II Package with 31x10.50R-15SL Tires) has a minimum ground clearance of 8.3 inches. An F-150 Regular Cab 4x4 Styleside with P235/75R-17A/T Tires also has a ground clearance of 8.3". An F-150 Regular Cab 4x4 Styleside with P255/70R-17A/T Tires has a ground clearance of 8.2" So if you are comparing any Ranger 4x4 to any F150 4x4, the Ranger may have more ground clearance. A Ranger 4x4 without the FX4 Stage II package has 7.8" of clearance (less with a 4.0L) - which is less that a standard F150 4X4 with P235/75R-17A/T Tires. There are other F150 tire/wheel options that have greater ground clearance. To be clear, I am measuring ground clearance to the bottom of the rear differential. You will need to subtract the "K" dimension (the differential CL to bottom of the differential dimension) from CC dimension (the rear axle centerline height) to calculate this value. For the Ranger FX4 Stage II you need to refer to the tire data sheet to get the "CC" value for the tires on this model and use 5.7" for the "K" value since the FX4 Stage II package gets the larger differential. The standard Ranger differential hangs down 0.7 inches less than the standard F150 differential. So even though the radius of the F150 tire is greater than for the Ranger tires - 14.1" vs 12.9", the actual difference in ground clearance is less, 8.3" vs 7.8" (unless you have a 4.0 Ranger, then the differential is the same as for an F150 and the ground clearance is further reduced - unless you get the larger tires in the FX4 Stage II package). BTW, the factory F150 with the greatest ground clearance uses the optional LT275/65R18C wheel/tire combination. Ed The cross members in the new F150's on all the F150's at work are all beat in and bent back from bottoming out. I have driven these trucks, and they would barley clear a soda can sitting upright on a flat surface... The ranger's at work are much higher... much to my surprise... and i am NOT an fan of rangers... I am talking about 2wd trucks here, rangers w/ 235/75/15 and F150's with 255/70/17's Ranger has more clearance, and i'm not talking about the rearend... the F150's are hitting on the front crossmember. Do you want pictures? >> What I said in my post was a larger wheel with a larger tire. The fact >> is contrary to the poster observation, no stock Ranger in any [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Ed > Do you believe a vehicle with 16" wheels has more ground clearance than one > with 17" wheels and larger tires? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> Why would ford make this vehicle so damn low! The rangers have more >> clearance than the fullsize!!! Yes I do. Now hte 4x4 F150 / Ranger comparison might be a different story. I'm just saying, you measure a 2wd F150 & Ranger, i'm not talking about the rear end either mike... im talking about the front cross member... in front of the oil pan, on the F150s is very low. I will measure them someday when i get them on a flat floor. |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2009 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.