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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / November 2006

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UK Ford Fiesta Idle Problem ...

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Arfa Daily - 20 Nov 2006 14:13 GMT
Hi all

Have a 1.25 Zetec S Ford Fiesta Ghia on an R plate. A few weeks ago, it
started having idle problems. Basically, when it is thoroughly warmed
through - not just warmed up according to the temp gauge - it starts to have
issues with being able to maintain idle speed as you approach junctions or
roundabouts or get stuck in traffic. Anywhere that you dip the clutch
basically. The rev counter drops below 500, and it comes within a gnat's
cock of stopping ( it actually did stop once just as I rolled out onto a
roundabout ... ). Mostly, it recovers though, and settles back to a pretty
even 900 RPM. When it has reached the point where it is doing it, if you
leave it idling, it will sometimes start to get very 'lumpy', although the
rev counter is dead steady, but slight throttle pressure up to say 1100 RPM,
and it's dead smooth again. So far, the garage have tried the air control
valve ( ? ) an electrically operated valve that is something to do with
idling, apparently, but this did not cure it, so they put the old one back,
then last week, they say that they managed to persuade an error code out of
the EMU, that indicated a problem with the MAF meter, so they replaced that.
Today, I drove into town, and it started doing it again, so I guess it's not
that. On the way home, it started doing the opposite, and 'hanging up' at
like 1200 RPM when it went to idle. It is going back in again tomorrow, but
they seem to be at a bit of a loss. A couple of people have told me that
these suffer from bad spots on the throttle position sense pot, which seems
reasonable, but I have poked and tapped it, and it doesn't seem sensitive. I
have also heard that the setting for the rest position at idle of this pot
is critical, but prior to the trouble starting, it had not been touched from
factory original setting.

I'd really like to get this sorted, as it's a bit dangerous if it cuts out
on a junction. Any thoughts or advice would be much appreciated, or indeed,
if anyone has had this problem and knows what it is for sure, please share
with me !!

Thanks

Geoff
Backyard Mechanic - 20 Nov 2006 15:31 GMT
> Hi all
>
> Have a 1.25 Zetec S Ford Fiesta Ghia on an R plate. A few weeks ago,
> it started having idle problems. ..

The symptoms you describe muddle it a little, but since your car is about 8
years old, I would start with replacing the Throttle position sensor.  It
should be a non-adjustable type and it's usually an easy task.

The next thing I would do is check ALL the wiring harness ground
{'earthing'} lugs to the car body... also the engine to frame lead which is
separate from the heavy starter cable.

And make sure of the connections from the IAC {idle air control} valve back
to the control box

The reason I suspect an electrical problem is that the system should
attempt to maintain a minimum idle speed but it also has to figure out WHY
the engine rpm is dropping. If the signals are erratic, it has to make a
decision on which to ignore and that would make response slow.

Signature

Yeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price
you pay..DEAL with it!

Arfa Daily - 20 Nov 2006 17:03 GMT
>> Hi all
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> the engine rpm is dropping. If the signals are erratic, it has to make a
> decision on which to ignore and that would make response slow.

Thanks for that. I don't pretend to fully understand fuel injection
systems - I'm an electronic service engineer, so well familiar with
faultfinding procedures and the problems of intermittent faults - but I do
understand them enough to know how they work, basically what all the bits
do, and how they hang together to form a closed loop system with the EMU.
Many of the electronic items that I work on have similar closed loop servos
in them. My feeling was that it was electrical, and that the throttle
position sense pot was a possibility. Anyway, thanks for your input. I have
printed it off and just dropped the car back in to them, and they were very
interested in what you had to say, so we shall see tomorrow ...

Geoff
David R - 20 Nov 2006 23:44 GMT
> Thanks for that. I don't pretend to fully understand fuel injection
> systems - I'm an electronic service engineer, so well familiar with
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> they were very interested in what you had to say, so we shall see tomorrow
> ...

It was good information, but your problem is this:-

ISCV

Idle Speed Control Valve

Get it cleaned at a garage (or youself?) with carb-cleaner. Carb deposits
build up, and result in the valve being slow to action when you dip the
clutch and slow down. A temporary solution would be to keep your foot off
the clutch for longer.

Get it to a garage. The sooner the better - the problem may reappear after
another 8k miles or so, but give it a go.

Should cost not much at a garage, £15 to £30 max. A new ISCV is also a
solution, but geniune ford parts are expensive.

I imagine you've done 45 to 60k in your car already, which is why the
problem is suddenly appearing, very common.

http://www.escortevolution.co.uk/howto/view.php?id=7

http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk.rec.cars.maintenance/browse_thread/thread/94
9f6cd5121db206/ae611d1221f45858?lnk=st&q=escort+idle+valve+sticking&rnum=2&hl=en
#ae611d1221f45858


Watch the google URL wrapping, you will need to copy and paste directly. I
had your exact problem, I can assure you 99% that it's the problem :-)
Arfa Daily - 21 Nov 2006 00:36 GMT
>> Thanks for that. I don't pretend to fully understand fuel injection
>> systems - I'm an electronic service engineer, so well familiar with
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> Watch the google URL wrapping, you will need to copy and paste directly. I
> had your exact problem, I can assure you 99% that it's the problem :-)

I'd like to say " Hey thanks !! That's it !! ", but it has been in the
garage, and they have both cleaned the IAC valve, and then replaced it, both
without success - See Rodan's reply further down, and mine to him. Seems
that there may be issues with retraining the EMU after its replacement
though, so what you say may yet be valid. Thanks anyway for your input. It's
appreciated.

Geoff
Rodan - 20 Nov 2006 23:10 GMT
"Arfa Daily"  wrote:       Ford Fiesta Ghia on an R plate
                               1.25 Zetec S   <UNSPECIFIED YEAR AND MILES>

When thoroughly warmed, idle speed is erratic when approaching
junctions, roundabouts or slow traffic. (Basically anywhere that you
dip the clutch).  The RPM drops below 500, and it almost stalls, then
recovers and settles back to a pretty even 900 RPM.    If you leave
it idling, it can get 'lumpy', although RPMs remain dead steady.  Slight
throttle pressure up to say 1100 RPM, and it's dead smooth again.
The garage replaced the IAC valve but this did not help, so they put
the old one back,     Weeks later they said the EMU showed an error
code of < UNSPECIFIED > so they replaced the MAF sensor.

Today it started doing it again.    And later today it started doing the
opposite, hanging up at about 1200 RPM instead of going to idle.

I heard that these engines suffer from bad spots on the TPS. but I
have but I have poked and tapped it, and it doesn't seem sensitive.
I also heard that the setting for the rest position at idle of this pot
is critical, but prior to the trouble starting, it had not been touched
from factory original setting.     Any thoughts or advice?
__________________________________________________________

It surely sounds like an IAC problem.

When the IAC valve was replaced, did the garage run the engine
through a number of starts, warm-ups, and driving periods to give
the EMU time to reset its control parameters?   If not, reinstall
the new IAC valve and try it again.

I don't know how RPM can be dead steady while idling is lumpy.

Sometimes a good but confused TPS can be retrained by installing
a slightly stronger throttle return spring.

Other possible problem causes:

====  Defective EGR valve.
====  Defective Coolant Temp Sensor.
====  Defective garage mechanic.

Good luck.

Rodan.
Arfa Daily - 20 Nov 2006 23:55 GMT
> "Arfa Daily"  wrote:       Ford Fiesta Ghia on an R plate
>                                1.25 Zetec S   <UNSPECIFIED YEAR AND MILES>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
>
> Rodan.

Thanks Rodan, more valuable input. Year is '98, miles approx 86k. I too fail
to see how engine RPMs can *appear* steady when engine is idling lumpy, but
trust me, that was what I saw. I had driven today to nearby town - 8 or 9
miles - and it had been doing the almost stopping routine. I did my banking,
and popped in the cake shop and then back to the car - say 10 minutes. It
was a bit chilly, so I started the engine, and left it running, whilst I ate
my cheese and onion roll ( not relevant, but makes the picture more
interesting ... !! ). I had a cup of soup on the top of the dash. Suddenly,
the engine started to idle so badly, that the soup cup slid forward on the
dash until it touched the 'screen ( car was parked forward pointing down a
moderately steep hill - come to think of it, might be a red herring, but on
this particular run, the place it starts doing it, is where I first
encounter a traffic queue, and it's downhill ... ). At this time, the rev
counter was indicating 900 RPM, and it didn't move by as much as a needle
thickness during the whole episode. Now that is actually a bit strange in
itself, as all the time that this problem has existed, the revs have been
able to be seen to be bouncing up and down slightly, which was never the
case before I started to have problems. I don't know if the garage did a
retrain of the EMU after replacing the IAC valve. I know that it was
certainly driven around by the mechanic that fitted it, but I think that he
based his conclusion that it was " just the same mate " on the fact that the
revs were still hunting up and down a little, and this was the '
ever-present ' symptom of the fault, rather than the almost stopping, which
I don't believe that they have ever witnessed. Can they reset the EMU with
their magic OBD box, or does it require a full battery off reset to initiate
a retrain ? The reason that I ask this is that the radio has not required a
recode on each occasion that I have got it back from them, which would
suggest tha the battery has not been off ??

Also, interesting that you say about the coolant temp sensor. A friend of
mine had exactly this on an auto Range Rover that he owned, and which had an
almost identical fault to my little Ford. The EGR valve possibility is
interesting too. I wasn't aware of this component, so just did some reading
up on it. Quoted faults for it sticking open, sound very like the symptoms
that I have. Do all EFI engines have one of these ? I've never noticed
anything that looks like the picture I saw, on my engine, but perhaps I've
never really been looking.

Anyway, thanks to both for the comments and suggestions so far, and keep 'em
coming ... All much appreciated !!

Geoff
 
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