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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / December 2006GM joins Ford in jettisoning the minivan market
Chrysler, Toyota and Honda must be very excited about this. > AUTOS November 22, 2006, 1:31PM EST > > What Do Moms Want? GM's Minivan Issue > GM joins Ford in jettisoning the minivan market but is it a smart business > move or an admission of defeat? > by David Kiley > General Motors confirmed Nov. 22 that it's getting out of the minivan > business to concentrate on crossover SUVs. But the market for the two isn't > necessarily the same. The problem is that, like Ford (F)‹which announced it > was ceasing production of minivans in September‹GM (GM) just couldn't compete > with better products from Toyota (TM), Honda (HMC), and Chrysler. So rather > than trying to fix the problem, they're getting out entirely. > Chrysler, Toyota and Honda must be very excited about this. And Hyundai/Kia. > > Chrysler, Toyota and Honda must be very excited about this. > > And Hyundai/Kia. I'm sure they already knew this was coming, it's not like they sold any minivans anyway. Either GM was going to have to come up with a complete redesign, or just bow out. The retarded thing is that GM killed the Astro van which was a favorite of service techs everywhere and had a little niche all its own. What the hell were they thinking? There's no other vehicle to compete with it, it still sold, and yet they axed it. Dumb, dumb, dumb GM, killing one of the few vehicles you made that actually made sense. Now our techs are driving Uplanders which makes no sense, and if the news is true, won't exist in a year or two anyway. What's next? Only real vans left are the full-sized G or E vans or else a Sprinter, all of which are much larger than the vehicles they've been driving. Or I suppose they could get a Colorado with a tall cap, but it won't have as much room as a real van. nate ow out. > The retarded thing is that GM killed the Astro van which was a favorite > of service techs everywhere and had a little niche all its own. What > the hell were they thinking? There's no other vehicle to compete with > it, it still sold, and yet they axed it. I disagree. I'm guessing they got out BECAUSE there was another vehicle to compete with it, and one that took the whole market lock stock and barrel when it debuted: the Dodge Sprinter. With the option of a small Benz diesel in addition to the full line of gasoline engines and a very adaptable body, it pretty well blew the Astro into the weeds. > ow out. > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Benz diesel in addition to the full line of gasoline engines and a very > adaptable body, it pretty well blew the Astro into the weeds. But the Sprinter doesn't compete with it, really - it's actually larger in size than a full size G or E van. Also utterly impossible to enter a parking garage with it, and who the hell likes unloading a van in the rain? Now if you say that because the Astro primarily sold as a service vehicle not a family vehicle it should have been offered with a Diesel engine, well, you'll get no argument from me there. nate >> ow out. >> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > a parking garage with it, and who the hell likes unloading a van in the > rain? Agree. The sprinter is a very tall van and more akin to the full-size models. > Now if you say that because the Astro primarily sold as a service > vehicle not a family vehicle it should have been offered with a Diesel > engine, well, you'll get no argument from me there. The astro van was a good concept and should never have been killed. It would have been much better had they added the 4.2 I6. I'd say the same about the Aerostar. That van was rock solid for fleet trucks.  Signaturekai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request > ow out. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > diesel in addition to the full line of gasoline engines and a very > adaptable body, it pretty well blew the Astro into the weeds. The Dodge Sprinter is a full-size van. The Astro is a mini-van. They are in different market segments. Jeff >>ow out. >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The Dodge Sprinter is a full-size van. The Astro is a mini-van. They are in > different market segments. Not really. The Astro is about as big as a "full size" van of the 70s, on a little bit shorter wheelbase. The Sprinter is bigger, but still smaller than the B-series it replaced, let alone the Ford E-series. Its a delivery/fleet van, which is exactly what the Astro had morphed into despite being created as a family "mini" van. It just wasn't very "mini" and had the same miserable driver's seating position as full-size RWD vans because of the engine "doghouse" being in the way. > >>ow out. > >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > and had the same miserable driver's seating position as full-size RWD > vans because of the engine "doghouse" being in the way. The odd thing is that of all those, the Dodge B-series was the most pleasant to drive IMHO (I have not driven the Sprinter though.) The only fault I could find with them was that they went through brakes like mad, and I recall one incident with a lower ball joint failure on one, but they were used hard on poor city roads. I found the Ford E-series to feel very ponderous. nate >>>>ow out. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > nate I liked the driving position on the E-series much better than the Dodge B-series because the Ford "extended nose" reduced the size of the doghouse quite a bit, but the Fords do indeed handle like... well... twin-I-beam Fords have always handled :-/ I haven't yet driven a newer non-Twin-I-beam E-series, so maybe that's been fixed. > I liked the driving position on the E-series much better than the Dodge > B-series because the Ford "extended nose" reduced the size of the > doghouse quite a bit, but the Fords do indeed handle like... well... > twin-I-beam Fords have always handled :-/ What, you don't like what happens when the camber angles of each front wheel change so radically in a turn, especially in a turn with bumps. Argh, what horrible suspension geometry that was. The amazing thing is that Ford advertised it as a "feature" for so long! > ow out. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Benz diesel in addition to the full line of gasoline engines and a very > adaptable body, it pretty well blew the Astro into the weeds. Well i've only seen dodge sprinters going by on the mail train line... never seen one on the road. Even the cops used Astros, and the department of transportation still uses them... and central vehicle equipment.. the city had them as well. Now none of these guys are replacing htem with Venture vans... or chrysler vans, they are looking for other options > The retarded thing is that GM killed the Astro van which was a favorite > of service techs everywhere and had a little niche all its own. What [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Now our techs are driving Uplanders which makes no sense, and if the > news is true, won't exist in a year or two anyway. Ouch, Uplanders? I doubt they will take the beating very long a service vehicle is expected to take. It is crazy that Ford and GM killed their rear wheel drive minivans instead of freshening them. They were not much of a family vehicle, but were good little work trucks. Being built off the Ranger/S10 they must have been cheap to make as well. This would be a good market for the Chinese or Indians to go after. Strong simple work trucks, both van and pickup style. They make tons of them for their home market, price and durability are key factors, and product life cycles of 10 years or more are acceptable. A company like Tata could walk in and own that market. John > This would be a good market for the Chinese or Indians to go after. Strong > simple work trucks, both van and pickup style. They make tons of them for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > John That would be interesting to see...IIRC Tata has been making some cars which are based on British designs of a number of years ago... They are okay in their home market, but dont really have a reputation that would inspire confidence. The Chinese might be able to do it, but realize that the American market can be fickle, and even with a desirable car of excellent quality, the incubation period can be extended. Both these nations, IMHO, have a problem with competition in the auto industry....for now. China is perhaps the most agressive nation in the world and will be a monster force in short time. > That would be interesting to see...IIRC Tata has been making some cars which > are based on [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > China is perhaps the most agressive nation in the world and will be a > monster force in short time. Where do they sell Tata's... they look pretty interesting > Where do they sell Tata's... they look pretty interesting The first time I saw Tatas was in India.. I was told they are a large family owned concern, making trucks, buses, even small cars. It has been a number of years since I was in India, but the cars of the period that I can speak of were like the old British crap. Surely they have modernized some by now. >> The retarded thing is that GM killed the Astro van which was a favorite >> of service techs everywhere and had a little niche all its own. What [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > much of a family vehicle, but were good little work trucks. Being built > off the Ranger/S10 they must have been cheap to make as well. Seems like GM could easily remake the Astro off of the Colorado frame since it replaced the s10 Another boneheaded move, or should I say 'Result of boneheaded marketing' of the decrepit duo. Agree EXACTLY on the value of Aerostar and Astro... they were BEST OF for many applications The Minivan was a great concept and a good product. What went wrong was the image of the product.. and all of us who drive a lot know twhat {sic} that is. GM and Ford should have left the "Moms MArket" to Chrysler and stressed the utility and fleet aspects... leaving the FWD market... to stress RWD and AWD.. and only selling Utilitarian people haulers and service vans. > Chrysler, Toyota and Honda must be very excited about this. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> business to concentrate on crossover SUVs. But the market for the two >> isn't necessarily the same. SignatureYeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price you pay..DEAL with it! > Agree EXACTLY on the value of Aerostar and Astro... they were BEST OF for > many applications Didnt some of the Ford minivan series have some horrible problems with transmission failure, engine problems? Seems there were a lot of short runs on some of those trannies, maybe failures below 50 k miles? The minivan was a good solution for some families, but not all of them were, apparently, created equal. > > Agree EXACTLY on the value of Aerostar and Astro... they were BEST OF for > > many applications > > Didnt some of the Ford minivan series have some horrible problems with > transmission failure, engine > problems? > Seems there were a lot of short runs on some of those trannies, maybe > failures below 50 k miles? Probably the Windstar, didn't that use the AXOD? > The minivan was a good solution for some families, but not all of them were, > apparently, created equal. Very true. nate >> Agree EXACTLY on the value of Aerostar and Astro... they were BEST OF for >> many applications [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > The minivan was a good solution for some families, but not all of them were, > apparently, created equal. SEems like ford is STILL having transmission failures... buddy of mine has a 5spd 3.0L ranger, tranny went at 12,000, took them 42 days to fix it, and he just got it back yesterday. another buddy just bought an escape to head out west, brand new, 7000k, tranny went, doesn't know if he'll make it out west by new years... at work, one ranger 3.0L auto, two tranny failures, one a complete rebuild, truck had less than 80k on it both times. now the other one was an 02, with 220k (talking kilometers here) and it failed, it was also automatic. Thats not real good out of 5 rangers. (3 are 05's, 2 02's). The other 02 only has 120k kms on it, and it hasn't failed yet however. > Chrysler, Toyota and Honda must be very excited about this. About as excited as Walmart gets when a corner grocery store closes. There weren't that many GM and Ford minivan sales to begin with. Jeff <...> I was selling these for a while and we could never get enough Astro vans for the trade. Not only did GM stop making them, they closed the plant in Baltimore to boot. From what I understand the Astro was doing well on the coasts but not elsewhere. I'm sure they could have kept it going somewhere. Boneheads. > Chrysler, Toyota and Honda must be very excited about this. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> (TM), Honda (HMC), and Chrysler. So rather >> than trying to fix the problem, they're getting out entirely. >> So rather >> than trying to fix the problem, they're getting out entirely. It's kind of amazing, really, that GM is the world's largest company and there are so many markets that they don't even sell to. They don't even care. For instance, they had unreliable junky diesel trucks that nobody would buy. They let that drag on forever. They didn't field a 4-door small (now considered mid-sized) SUV for a long time. They made a half-hearted effort with the stretched S-10, but that was just a pile of junk. They just watched while Jeep and Ford ran away with a huge market. How about this - no extended cab pickup until 1988. 15 years later to the market than the 2nd slowest. How about a competitor to the Mustang? Nope. Police car? Nope. How about something you could use for a Taxi? Nope. How about a low-slung 12,000 lb GVWR truck for rollback service, like an F-450? Nope. Minivan? Nope. V-8-powered rear drive car? Well, yes, at a price much higher than a 300C. To be fair, though, I do see some markets coming back to them, and Ford doing some of the same kind of ball-dropping that GM used to do. In the 1980's, GM squandered Cadillac's leadership position through a superhuman effort to embrace every kind of mistake possible. It appears that market is coming back around, or at least you could say Lincoln isn't leading any more. I also think the gas mileage of the 5.3 gas-powered trucks may be a class leader. I'm pretty sure it is. I think the HHR might be a hit. It may actually be outselling the other entry-level crossovers. >>> So rather >>> than trying to fix the problem, they're getting out entirely. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > market than the 2nd slowest. How about a competitor to the Mustang? Nope. > Police car? Nope. How about something you could use for a Taxi? Nope. Actually, the Chevy Impala is used both as a taxi and cop car. For that matter, Corvettes, Camaros and Tahoes are used as polices vehicles, too. <...> The Impala is a horrible police car. The transmission doesn't last and where I live it didn't make it as a taxi either. I don't know where you live but a Corvette used by police enforcement? Palm Beach or Malibu? >>>> So rather >>>> than trying to fix the problem, they're getting out entirely. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > <...> > The Impala is a horrible police car. The transmission doesn't last and > where I live it didn't make it as a taxi either. > > I don't know where you live but a Corvette used by police enforcement? > Palm Beach or Malibu? I am in Ontario, and we have Impala's as Police cars, as well as taxi's. Crown Vic's are also used. So are Tahoe's too. > I am in Ontario, and we have Impala's as Police cars, as well as taxi's. Here in Vancouver the Impala is currently popular as an airport cab, but the Toyota Corolla is increasingly becoming very common for in town taxis and even airport use. A few months ago 4 of us each with a checked bag and a carry on, were brought home from the airport in a Corolla. It's large space for a smaller car surprised me; fortunately the three smaller people took the rear seat and I got the very spacious front seat. >> I am in Ontario, and we have Impala's as Police cars, as well as taxi's. > > Here in Vancouver the Impala is currently popular as an airport cab, but > the Toyota Corolla is increasingly becoming very common for in town > taxis and even airport use. Pearson International (Toronto's airport) is the nearest to me, but is still around an hour away, so we don't see many airport cab's. I do recall seeing a PT cruiser used a couple of times though. Like I said above, as for taxi's, the Impala's are the thing here. There are even a few local companies who use Lumina's. > A few months ago 4 of us each with a checked bag and a carry on, were > brought home from the airport in a Corolla. It's large space for a > smaller car surprised me; fortunately the three smaller people took the > rear seat and I got the very spacious front seat. Good stuff. I prefer large cars myself. Bonneville's are the way to go, IMHO. > I am in Ontario, and we have Impala's as Police cars, as well as taxi's. > Crown Vic's are also used. So are Tahoe's too. In BC, Canada a variety of vehicles are used as police cars, even some 4WD vehicles where snow conditions are difficult. It seems that large Ford car is most common and it even keeps it's hub caps which that obsolete GM car didn't do. <:) > The Impala is a horrible police car. The transmission doesn't last and > where I live it didn't make it as a taxi either. > > I don't know where you live but a Corvette used by police enforcement? > Palm Beach or Malibu? Police have a wide variety of different models used as police cars. I never suggested that using them as regular cruisers was good. Neither is top posting. Jeff >>>>> So rather >>>>> than trying to fix the problem, they're getting out entirely. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >> <...> The is a difference between vehicles 'used' by police and 'police' vehicles. Naturally a police department car use whatever they choose for bicycles to Hummers, and the do. but that does not mean they are certified for patrol/pursuit work. There are one three vehicle sold in the US that are 'certified police vehicles.' The Ford Interceptor is by for the number one choice, by around 80%. Followed by Impala and the newly certified Dodge vehicle. There are a whole group of vehicles, mostly 4X4 that are sold for 'security' service, some of which have been mentioned. The explorer and the Jeep are the most often used. Of the departments we serviced, in six eastern states, many that bought FWD certified police cars, because they were a few thousand dollars less expensive and more fuel efficient, eventually when back to the Interceptor. Some like the Pa State Police, ban the use of FWD cars for pursuit work. mike >> The Impala is a horrible police car. The transmission doesn't last and >> where I live it didn't make it as a taxi either. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I never suggested that using them as regular cruisers was good. > The is a difference between vehicles 'used' by police and 'police' vehicles. > Naturally a police department car use whatever they choose for bicycles to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Interceptor. Some like the Pa State Police, ban the use of FWD cars for > pursuit work. I can certainly understand that. I am certain that the police Impalas have uprated suspension, etc. but the basic dynamics of the chassis is not so good for high speed handling. I've been told it's basically a stretched Lumina and it shows. Now my comments are based on the '05 and earlier, I have not driven the '06 yet. If I were expecting to be involved in pursuit driving, I would certainly want a purpose-built vehicle, not an uprated economy sedan. nate The problem is not how well it is executed, it is the fact it is FWD. mike >> The is a difference between vehicles 'used' by police and 'police' >> vehicles. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > nate >> The is a difference between vehicles 'used' by police and 'police' >> vehicles. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > stretched Lumina and it shows. Now my comments are based on the '05 > and earlier, I have not driven the '06 yet. They actually do quite extensive upgrades to the Impala before using it as a Police cruiser, at least down here. For starters, the 3800 is standard (no 3400's). The brakes, suspension, tires, and charging system's are all beefed up as well. We still have the old style Impala's here, but there are a couple of the new '06 models being used. > If I were expecting to be involved in pursuit driving, I would > certainly want a purpose-built vehicle, not an uprated economy sedan. I was actually talking with an Officer in a near-by town who had Dodge Charger interceptor's. I asked him what him and his officers preferred, the Charger, the Crown Vic, or the Impala. He said the Impala is the most popular, followed by the Crown Vic, and then the Charger. I guess it is a matter of preference. When it comes to actual use the CV Interceptor has nearly 80% of the certified police car market, the Impala is second with the Dodge a distant third.. minivan market is loosing to crossovers mike >>> The is a difference between vehicles 'used' by police and 'police' >>> vehicles. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > popular, followed by the Crown Vic, and then the Charger. I guess it is a > matter of preference. > When it comes to actual use the CV Interceptor has nearly 80% of the > certified police car market, the Impala is second with the Dodge a distant [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >> popular, followed by the Crown Vic, and then the Charger. I guess it is a >> matter of preference. The police are using minivans, and switching to crossovers? I sometimes see minivans as transport vehicles, but rarely. I doubt that they can even be replaced by crossovers. One reason why the Charger is so rarely used by police is that it just came out as cruiser within the last year. Jeff - please stop topposting. <...> > I was actually talking with an Officer in a near-by town who had Dodge > Charger interceptor's. I asked him what him and his officers preferred, > the Charger, the Crown Vic, or the Impala. He said the Impala is the most > popular, followed by the Crown Vic, and then the Charger. I guess it is a > matter of preference. The Charger is by far the coolest looking. Not that that matters as much to the cops in the cars. I saw a couple in NYC. Way cool. The NYPD was testing them. They had V6 for city patrols and a V8 got highway patrols. Jeff > <...> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The Charger is by far the coolest looking. I think the Charger in-of-itself is a nice looking car, but I don't think that body style deserved the name Charger. No offence intended to you though. Just my humble opinion. > Not that that matters as much to the cops in the cars. True. > I saw a couple in NYC. Way cool. The NYPD was testing them. They had V6 > for city patrols and a V8 got highway patrols. I am not sure which engine the two CHargers I saw in a near by town had. I was too suprised at seeing them to think about that question. > I am not sure which engine the two CHargers I saw in a near by town had. I > was too suprised at seeing them to think about that question. Regardless of any badging: dual exhausts indicates a Hemi v8, single exhaust indicates a 3.5L v6. The 2.7L v6 is not available in a Charger police package car (actually I don't think its available in the Charger AT ALL.) >> I am not sure which engine the two CHargers I saw in a near by town had. >> I was too suprised at seeing them to think about that question. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > police package car (actually I don't think its available in the Charger AT > ALL.) Thanks for the info. I will take a look next time I am out there. >> I am not sure which engine the two CHargers I saw in a near by town had. >> I was too suprised at seeing them to think about that question. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > police package car (actually I don't think its available in the Charger AT > ALL.) The 2.7 litre engine is standard in the Charger SE. >>> I am not sure which engine the two CHargers I saw in a near by town had. >>> I was too suprised at seeing them to think about that question. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > The 2.7 litre engine is standard in the Charger SE. A 2.7L Charger must be a real slug. Even the 3.5L is not particulalrly impressive. The 3.5L Chrysler 300 is slower than the 3.0L Ford Five Hundred which everyone except me says is "too slow." I can't imagine the 3.5L Charger is any faster than the 3.5L Chrsyler 300. I wonder how many 2.7L V-6 Chargers Chryler actually sells? Hard to imagine anyone wanting a slow car that is also uncomfortable, rides poorly, has mediocre fuel economy (21/28), rattles, and is unreliable. I can see the atttraction of the Hemi version, at least until I get my first speeding ticket. Ed The 3.5L Chrysler 300 has 250HP and according to Car and Driver the 0-60 time is 7.3 seconds and that's with the lousy 4 speed. The 07 3.5L has the 5 speed which should improve it to 7.0 sec. No way is the Five Hundred faster than the Charger/300 with 3.5L. Sure the Five Hundred is lighter by a couple of hundred pounds but it is giving up 50HP/45 FT-LBS. I have rented the 300 and it handles well and is really comfortable. No rattles and light years ahead of GM products. The bad areas are front/rear visibility. > A 2.7L Charger must be a real slug. Even the 3.5L is not particulalrly > impressive. The 3.5L Chrysler 300 is slower than the 3.0L Ford Five [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ed "Victor" <vmark(nospam)99@telus.net> wrote in message > I have rented the 300 and it handles well and is really comfortable. > No rattles and light years ahead of GM products. > The bad areas are front/rear visibility. You forgot to mention that it is incredibly ugly too. That is your opinion. It has won the 10 best award for 3 years in a row. Car and Driver usually hates domestic cars but not with this car. The only car that GM makes that is RWD and has the performance of the Hemi is the Cadillac STS V8 but it costs 50% more. > "Victor" <vmark(nospam)99@telus.net> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > You forgot to mention that it is incredibly ugly too. > The only car that GM makes that is RWD and has the performance of the Hemi > is the Cadillac STS V8 but it costs 50% more. No question the 300C has power and accelerates, but don't pass that gas station. What car does? ;) mike >> The only car that GM makes that is RWD and has the performance of the >> Hemi >> is the Cadillac STS V8 but it costs 50% more. > No question the 300C has power and accelerates, but don't (sic) pass that > gas > station. >>The only car that GM makes that is RWD and has the performance of the Hemi >>is the Cadillac STS V8 but it costs 50% more. > > No question the 300C has power and accelerates, but don't pass that gas > station. Why not? The Northstar is a great engine (for 1993), but it doesn't have MDS like the Hemi does. The highway mileage, listed in the CAFE Guide, is 25 MPG. mike >>>The only car that GM makes that is RWD and has the performance of the >>>Hemi is the Cadillac STS V8 but it costs 50% more. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Why not? The Northstar is a great engine (for 1993), but it doesn't have > MDS like the Hemi does. Yes it is. Pretty impressive for a car that moves like the LX cars do. > The highway mileage, listed in the CAFE Guide, is 25 MPG. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>Why not? The Northstar is a great engine (for 1993), but it doesn't have >>MDS like the Hemi does. > I have rented the 300 > The bad areas are front/rear visibility. The understatement of the day. After struggling with the lack of visibility of a rental Magnum, when I returned to my LH it was like being in a green house. Visibility returned! Night time vision through the Magnum's heavily tinted rear window was non existent. I needed outside help from my wife to park at night. The cops do not like the Dodge and the Chevy because once the cage is installed there is not enough room in the back seat. To make more room some departments are placing the cage three inches ahead and that does not allow the driver seat to be moved back. mike > <...> > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Jeff > They actually do quite extensive upgrades to the Impala before using it as > a Police cruiser, at least down here. For starters, the 3800 is standard > (no 3400's). The brakes, suspension, tires, and charging system's are all > beefed up as well. We still have the old style Impala's here, but there > are a couple of the new '06 models being used. The brake pads are different, the rest of the brake components are the same. When it came time to do the brakes on ours I asked at the dealers for the different part numbers for parts for the police package Imps and everything was the same so I just bought some good pads. The Suspension differences are just stiffer struts. The cooling system has the second fan the size as the first, there is one wrecked police package Imp in the junkyard near my house so I may pick up the fans someday. >>The is a difference between vehicles 'used' by police and 'police' vehicles. >>Naturally a police department car use whatever they choose for bicycles to [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > nate Not to cross swords with another thread, but the Impala once again proves that front-wheel drive and police driving DO NOT MIX. The drivetrain isn't strong enough, and the handling isn't safe enough. Dodge never even bothered to try to certify the Intrepid/Concorde/Vision for that very reason, although a lot of police departments did buy them and use them for light-duty work. It will be very interesting to see how the Charger plays out as a cop car. The 3.5L V6 Charger Police Package accelerates faster than the v8 Ford Interceptor, and the 5.7L V8 Charger Police Package is amazing. Ford has had the market to themselves WAY too long, and the Interceptor's pathetic performance is showing. Apparently you are not aware the Interceptor has been upgraded every year and is by far the number one selling police vehicle. It is bullet prove in more ways than one. Too bad it is going away in 2008. mike >>>The is a difference between vehicles 'used' by police and 'police' >>>vehicles. [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > had the market to themselves WAY too long, and the Interceptor's pathetic > performance is showing. (top posting fix0red) >>>>The is a difference between vehicles 'used' by police and 'police' >>>>vehicles. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > and is by far the number one selling police vehicle. It is bullet prove in > more ways than one. Too bad it is going away in 2008. It's probably #1 because it's been the only legitimate player in the game since the demise of the Caprice (up until Chrysler started certifying the Charger, that is.) Wasn't it you yourself that stated that if I didn't have a RWD car I couldn't understand what handling was? That's one statement that you've made that in general I wholeheartedly agree with. I think after a couple years we will be seeing a lot more MoPar cop cars unless GM or Ford gets their act together. I for one welcome the return of our Hemi-powered overlords (even if it's not the same Hemi.) Now just give me a goshdarned 2-door coupe with a manual transmission, please. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel > Apparently you are not aware the Interceptor has been upgraded every year > and is by far the number one selling police vehicle. It is bullet prove in > more ways than one. Too bad it is going away in 2008. Ford discontinuing another product that is selling well in a market they control! Oh well, Toyota will probably fill the need again. > Not to cross swords with another thread, but the Impala once again > proves that front-wheel drive and police driving DO NOT MIX. The [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Ford has had the market to themselves WAY too long, and the > Interceptor's pathetic performance is showing. I have a cool book about Mopar police packages over the years. The car I liked the most that they show is a 60's era Dart wagon with a 170 slant 6 one barrel for patrol duties. The police slant six added beefier bearings. At the other end of the mopar police package performance spectrum was the 440ci 4 barrel cars for highway patrol/interceptor duties. And every engine in between was also used -- 225 slant 6, 318ci, 360, 400, 440 in various flavors of carburettion. I dont think they put the 340 in cop cars. They didn't put the 426 Hemi in cop cars back then. "VMan" <vmark(nospam)99@telus.net> wrote in message > I don't know where you live but a Corvette used by police enforcement? > Palm Beach or Malibu? The CT state police even had a Ferrari for a while and a Corvette or two. I see a Camero in our area on a regular basis. Some of these cars come from drug busts. So are bicycles. LOL mike > The Impala is a horrible police car. The transmission doesn't last and > where I live it didn't make it as a taxi either. > > I don't know where you live but a Corvette used by police enforcement? > Palm Beach or Malibu? >>>> So rather >>>> than trying to fix the problem, they're getting out entirely. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > <...> Impalas make a bad taxi, and an even worse cop car. >>>>> So rather >>>>> than trying to fix the problem, they're getting out entirely. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Impalas make a bad taxi, and an even worse cop car. You know this from experience, I presume? Officer's here love them. >> Impalas make a bad taxi, and an even worse cop car. > > You know this from experience, I presume? Officer's here love them. I'm not sure what officers you're talking about. The all refuse to drive them here unless there are no crown victorias left. The highway police won't even touch them anymore, they had one dose of them, then the next year i saw them all go through the car auction 1 year old with 50-60,000 kms on it, while all the vics at the auction were 3 years old with 200-225,000 on them. >>> Impalas make a bad taxi, and an even worse cop car. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > kms on it, while all the vics at the auction were 3 years old with > 200-225,000 on them. I'm sorry, but the Impala is a great car. And, like I said, the Officers down here (Ontario, Canada) love them. We have more of them then we do Crown Vic's. That may be your opinion but when I owned my formed fleet business numerous departments particularly city departments, bought the Chevy and Dodge FWD cars because they were available for a few thousands less than the Interceptor and got better fuel mileage Service experience soon shows the maintenance and repair cost vis a v the Interceder far outweigh the lower purchase price and when they bought more cars they returned to the Ford. Ford 'owns' the police car business, by at least eight to one at well over 100,000 units, over the current Doge RWD cars and the Chevy.. That surely slows which car department prefer. mike >>>> Impalas make a bad taxi, and an even worse cop car. >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > down here (Ontario, Canada) love them. We have more of them then we do > Crown Vic's. > That may be your opinion ' What "may be your opinion?" Please don't top post. Signaturekai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request I'll try to remember next time officer ;) mike >> That may be your opinion ' > > What "may be your opinion?" Please don't top post. That may be your opinion, Mike. I know what we use here, and its mostly Impala's. > That may be your opinion but when I owned my formed fleet business > numerous departments particularly city departments, bought the Chevy and [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >> down here (Ontario, Canada) love them. We have more of them then we do >> Crown Vic's. > That may be your opinion, Mike. I know what we use here, and its mostly > Impala's. Could be that they haven't completely switched over yet. Takes awhile for the true cost to be realized. Same at work, they thought they'd be saving bundles with the ford ranger instead of the f150s... wrong... 3 transmissions in 7 trucks died before 100,000 KMS, 1 just over 200,000. Two motors before 100, and one at 250,000 KMS. >> That may be your opinion, Mike. I know what we use here, and its mostly >> Impala's. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 100,000 KMS, 1 just over 200,000. Two motors before 100, and one at > 250,000 KMS. We do also use Crown Vic's, but like I said, most of our cars are Impala's, and have been for many years. We used to use the old 80's style Caprice's back in the day. I guess it helps that we make the Impala's here as well. :-P Regardless of which brand is used in your area, what I posted is fact not opinion. ;) mike > That may be your opinion, Mike. I know what we use here, and its mostly > Impala's. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> mike > That may be your opinion, Mike. I know what we use here, and its mostly The Impala has a niche. University and public school district police departments are what use them around here. When the Ford Interceptor gets de-throned, it will be by a rear-drive car. The Charger is the best bet to do the de-throning right now, but a lot of PDs are very entrenched and slow to change. Hell, that's the same reason they were still buying M-body Mopar copcars back in the 80s- because they'd always bought Mopar in the past. It sure wasn't the blistering performance of an 8:1 compression 318 and 2.45 rear-end ratio! No it was the $2,500 lower purchase price LOL mike >> That may be your opinion, Mike. I know what we use here, and its mostly > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > they'd always bought Mopar in the past. It sure wasn't the blistering > performance of an 8:1 compression 318 and 2.45 rear-end ratio! > No it was the $2,500 lower purchase price LOL > > mike Well, that and the fact that you couldn't wear them out with sand in the oil and driving 80 mph on railroad tracks. Damn those things were un-killable! >>>That may be your opinion, Mike. I know what we use here, and its mostly >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>they'd always bought Mopar in the past. It sure wasn't the blistering >>performance of an 8:1 compression 318 and 2.45 rear-end ratio! Is the dodge a v8? Dodge has just never made a real quality product... i do like the looks of the new magnums... but are they built well? > That may be your opinion but when I owned my formed fleet business numerous > departments particularly city departments, bought the Chevy and Dodge FWD [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> down here (Ontario, Canada) love them. We have more of them then we do >> Crown Vic's. > Dodge has just never made a real quality product... You misspelled a word. Its not n-e-v-e-r, its spelled a-l-w-a-y-s. GM and Ford were smart to get out of the minivan business, at this point. 1. Why waists capitol in a declining market, with an ever increasing number of competitors? 2. Chrysler dominates the market at around 48% of the sales, with six others to share the balance 3. After 20 years of trying, the Japs are finally offering vans that can compete with what you offer. 4. The competition can built their van for around 1/3 less than you can. Good more GM and Ford, concentrate your capitol on the fast growing COV and AWD market instead. mike > Good more GM and Ford, concentrate your capitol on the fast growing COV and > AWD market instead. Unfortunately GM & Ford are already showing weakness in those markets. Duh what Jap maker offers an AWD mid size sedan? mike >> Good more GM and Ford, concentrate your capitol on the fast growing COV >> and >> AWD market instead. > > Unfortunately GM & Ford are already showing weakness in those markets. I guess that's Subaru, right? Is that what you mean? > Duh what Jap maker offers an AWD mid size sedan? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Unfortunately GM & Ford are already showing weakness in those markets. And in the US they sell how many in a year? ;) mike >I guess that's Subaru, right? Is that what you mean? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >>> >>> Unfortunately GM & Ford are already showing weakness in those markets. >> Good more GM and Ford, concentrate your capitol on the fast growing COV >> and >> AWD market instead. > > Unfortunately GM & Ford are already showing weakness in those markets. Maybe so. I may be wrong but I perceive that as market segment of very finicky customers. It may be one of those markets where they spend a $billion on a new product, and the market just says it's mediocre. Mediocrity is the heart of what's driving them into bankruptcy. In fact I think we're already there with the "Edge". It's an all-out development effort, but reviews in the press are mixed. It looks good, but it weighs 5000 lb, and it only seats 5. There's nothing really great about the performance or the gas mileage. Just middle-of-the-road all the way. It looks a lot better than a Pacifica, but maybe not so good as the Murano, depending on your taste. How about the Compass? It's cheaper, but awfully ugly. The Compass is going to be the new Aztek, I'm afraid. Recent Autoweek test had all kinds of breakdowns. It's bad when you develop products that are ugly right out of the box. I guess this new Buick Enclave thing is the GM's big all-out crossover effort. Their current crossovers are kind of forgettable to me. I know they had the Ranier/Aztek for a while. Now they have that Pontiac Torrent instead and whatever it is at other divisions. These were all okay (ignoring the Aztek's styling). I guess you could say mediocre. If I felt as you do about any of the vehicles you mentioned, I would not buy one of those, if I were you. ;) mike >>> Good more GM and Ford, concentrate your capitol on the fast growing COV >>> and [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > instead and whatever it is at other divisions. These were all okay > (ignoring the Aztek's styling). I guess you could say mediocre. > GM and Ford were smart to get out of the minivan business, at this point. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Good more GM and Ford, concentrate your capitol on the fast growing COV and > AWD market instead. Fast growing? Seems like GM/Ford have already saturated the SUV market, and there's already too many players in the AWD passenger car market. Audi and Subaru traditionally had a lock on this market (after AMC/Eagle left, but AMC never had decent marketing. I wonder what would have happened if the Eagle had a rally program like Audi or Subaru? Would have been fun to watch... but I digress) but now everyone and their brother is offering at least one AWD sedan or wagon. GM and Ford both need to come up with a product that is not just "as good as" but markedly BETTER than the existing products in a given class and price point if they want to get any market penetration. There's too many people out there that have a negative impression of GM/Ford and their products, "all things being equal" they will choose another brand based on past experience or reputation. nate Really? That may be your opinion but crossovers are not SUVs and Toyota and Honda do not offer AWD sedans. Both of those markets are the fasted growing markets in the US Audi and Subaru are also-rans when it comes to sales in the US. According to CR's and several other recent new car owners surveys the Fusion and Milan have outscored the Accord and Camry. CR pointed out the V6 Fusion sells for thousands less than the 4 cy Camry as well. As to what buyers chose to buy based on past experience, both GM and Ford outsell Toyota and every other import brand in the US ;) mike >> GM and Ford were smart to get out of the minivan business, at this point. >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > nate > GM and Ford both need to come up with a product that is not just "as > good as" but markedly BETTER than the existing products in a given [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > nate You said it, man. Well put. That is not what is proven in the annual sales figures.. Both GM and Ford sell far more vehicles in the US than any import brand. ;) mike >> GM and Ford both need to come up with a product that is not just "as >> good as" but markedly BETTER than the existing products in a given [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > You said it, man. Well put. > >> GM and Ford both need to come up with a product that is not just "as > >> good as" but markedly BETTER than the existing products in a given [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > That is not what is proven in the annual sales figures.. Both GM and Ford > sell far more vehicles in the US than any import brand. ;) For now. Import market share is increasing and domestic market share is decreasing, and if this trend is not reversed it will be very bad news indeed for the US automotive industry and you won't be able to make that statement anymore. I stand by my statement and hope that GM and Ford's product planners agree with me, for their sake. nate Not to worry. Obviously more American continue to prefer what they offer than any import brand You are talking about share of an ever growing market, GM and Ford both sell more vehicles today than the did in days of old. If indeed GM and Ford falter, which is unlikely, it will be bad for America not just the auto industry. Import brands pay their workers less, offer less desirable healthcare benefits and less desirable pensions. Worst of all Japanese corporations pay no US corporate income taxes on the profits earned on cars they only assemble in the US of mostly imported parts, contrary to what many believe. They will no doubt find it cheaper to simply just import all of their vehicles, as they do most of them now. Without American made vehicles, would Toyota continue to assemble some of their cars in the US, of 'world sourced parts' as they now say in their ads, when they can built them in China, of the same parts, for one third the cost? mike >> >> GM and Ford both need to come up with a product that is not just "as >> >> good as" but markedly BETTER than the existing products in a given [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> >> >> nate >> That is not what is proven in the annual sales figures.. Both GM and Ford >> sell far more vehicles in the US than any import brand. ;) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > nate > Not to worry. Obviously more American continue to prefer what they offer > than any import brand Like who? Nobody I knows can say anything like "GM builds a better car than Toyota" for example with a straight face. Nobody believes it. > You are talking about share of an ever growing > market, GM and Ford both sell more vehicles today than the did in days of > old. Irrelevant. There's declining market share, and it will continue to decline unless something is done. At some point total sales will also decline - oh wait, that's already happening. > If indeed GM and Ford falter, They're already faltering. Declining market share and declining total sales = "faltering" in my book. > which is unlikely, it's already happening. > it will be bad for > America not just the auto industry. Indeed. Think "Studebaker" on a much larger scale. > Import brands pay their workers less, > offer less desirable healthcare benefits and less desirable pensions. And yet there are no shortage of applicants for those jobs. Odd, that. > Worst > of all Japanese corporations pay no US corporate income taxes on the profits > earned on cars they only assemble in the US of mostly imported parts, > contrary to what many believe. Well, I guess GM and Ford better get on the stick and start building better vehicles if we want to reverse the flow of dollars, eh what? > They will no doubt find it cheaper to simply > just import all of their vehicles, as they do most of them now. cite? > Without > American made vehicles, would Toyota continue to assemble some of their cars > in the US, of 'world sourced parts' as they now say in their ads, when they > can built them in China, of the same parts, for one third the cost? Maybe, maybe not. They do have a reputation for quality to uphold, and china is not there yet. However, once China figures out QC - well, you ain't seen nothing yet, you thought competition from Japan and Korea was bad, it's only going to get worse. Of course, this hasn't stopped *GM* from importing Chinese parts... nate As a former jap scrap mechanic.........I can assure you they ARE NOT BUILT ANY BETTER. Just a good P.R. job done by the jap corps. > > Not to worry. Obviously more American continue to prefer what they offer > > than any import brand [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > nate > > > Not to worry. Obviously more American continue to prefer what they > offer [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > As a former jap scrap mechanic.........I can assure you they ARE NOT BUILT > ANY BETTER. Just a good P.R. job done by the jap corps. When you're talking about what the public chooses to buy, good PR is just as good as a quality product, assuming it really works. Either way, GM and Ford have some catching up to do. Personally I have a hard time believing that ANY car could be as shitty as a Taurus or Impala and remain on the market. nate Catch up to whom? GM and Ford out sell any import mike >> As a former jap scrap mechanic.........I can assure you they ARE NOT >> BUILT [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > just as good as a quality product, assuming it really works. Either > way, GM and Ford have some catching up to do. > nate > Catch up to whom? Toyota, Honda, VW, et. al. > GM and Ford out sell any import They don't have the same design or quality and your statement is no longer true. Only GM currently outsells Toyota. nate > mike > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >>nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel That may be your opinion but GM and Ford still outsell any import brand. Obviously millions of buyers do not agree with your personal opinion. I personally have owned imports and the imports were no better the domestic I currently buy, ever though they cost more to drive home. So what is your point? mike >> Not to worry. Obviously more American continue to prefer what they offer >> than any import brand > > Like who? Nobody I knows can say anything like "GM builds a better car > than Toyota" for example with a straight face. Nobody believes it. > That may be your opinion but GM and Ford still outsell any import brand. Not true. > Obviously millions of buyers do not agree with your personal opinion. I > personally have owned imports and the imports were no better the domestic I > currently buy, ever though they cost more to drive home. So what is your > point? My point is GM is in trouble and that you are doing nothing to help the situation by defending their piss poor products. What are you on that makes you so delusional that you cannot see the need for immediate, real, radical product improvement on the part of the American manufacturers if they want to remain even marginally competitive. > mike > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>Like who? Nobody I knows can say anything like "GM builds a better car >>than Toyota" for example with a straight face. Nobody believes it. Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel GM and Ford are in trouble for sure but contrary to what you believe, GM and Fords current models are great reliable vehicles that have outscored many imports, including the Camry and the Accord in recent opinion poll of owner of 2006s like J D Powers and CR Gm and Ford by far makes the best truck the eclipse the sales of any import truck. .. GMs sales were up in the last quarter, as well. Fords light truck sales are down but their car sales are up. I own a 2006 and a 2007 domestic myself and they are great vehicles. The manufacture with the most recalls in 2006 was Toyota. I have tried to point out to you that what you believe is not factual. You many prefer imports but the fact is more buyers in the US bought vehicles from GM and Ford in 2006 than any import whether you agree or not.. mike >> That may be your opinion but GM and Ford still outsell any import brand. >> Obviously millions of buyers do not agree with your personal opinion. I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >> mike > GM and Ford are in trouble for sure but contrary to what you believe, GM > and Fords current models are great reliable vehicles that have outscored [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the last quarter, as well. Fords light truck sales are down but their car > sales are up. This may all be true, but GM and Ford are still losing boatloads of money. Some of their problems go back many years and will haunt them for many more years. They need to do much more than just sell cars. They have to restructure costs so they can sell cars at a profit. no question, but isn't that what they are doing? ;) mike >> GM and Ford are in trouble for sure but contrary to what you believe, GM >> and Fords current models are great reliable vehicles that have outscored [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > more years. They need to do much more than just sell cars. They have to > restructure costs so they can sell cars at a profit. > Not to worry. Obviously more American continue to prefer what they offer > than any import brand You are talking about share of an ever growing [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > mike Yet, Toyota builds approximately 60% of the cars it sells in the US in North America. The Toyota Sienna has about 90% US content. Compared with the Ford Mustang, which is about 65% US content. Honda also has invested heavily in the US. Can you name one vehicle in the US that meets the FTC requirements for "Made in the US?" Not one does. Honda employs about 25,000 people in the US. And has hundreds of domestic suppliers. And, unlike Ford, it builds airplanes. As for your question about Toyota building cars in the US, all manufacturers are tending to build their cars closer to where they sell them. Toyota opened a new factory in Texas in the last month or so. And more and more plants are being opened in the US by foreign auto makters. Jeff >>> >> GM and Ford both need to come up with a product that is not just "as >>> >> good as" but markedly BETTER than the existing products in a given [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> nate Actually my 2007 Mustang GT convertible had a NA parts label of 80% which has nothing to do with the VIN designation. The first numbed of the VIN is a '1,' indicating built in the US with an American total content of over 70% as I explained to you on several occasions, include much more than parts. Like the Toyota based Pontiac Vibe Honda does indeed build cars like the Accord in the US with over 70% American content and the first number of the VIN is a '1.' Nissan also builds vehicle in the US like the Titan and the first number of the VIN is a '1.' Toyota, with the exception of the Toyotas built in the GM/Toyota plant in California and the first number of the VIN is a '1,' only assembles cars, trucks and vans in the US and the first number of the VIN is a '4,' or '5' according to the American content. Contrary to what you believe, if you listen and watch what Toyota says in their newest ads, because of Hondas complaint, you will see they no longer say 'made in American' but rather 'assembled in American of world sourced parts.' mike >> Not to worry. Obviously more American continue to prefer what they offer >> than any import brand You are talking about share of an ever growing [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> mike |
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