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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / January 2007

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Ford Loses Record $12.7B in 2006

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gcmccoury@yahoo.com - 25 Jan 2007 17:44 GMT
January 25, 2007

By Nick Bunkley
New York Times

DEARBORN, Mich., Jan. 25 - The Ford Motor Company had the worst year
in its history in 2006, losing $12.7 billion and suffering sharp
erosion of its share of the United States auto market.

Ford lost $5.8 billion in the fourth quarter alone, the company
reported today. In the same period a year earlier, it lost a
comparatively trivial $74 million.

The company took in $160.1 billion in revenue in 2006, 9 percent less
than in 2005.

Ford's full-year loss, equivalent to $6.79 per share, far exceeded
the $7.39 billion it lost in 1992, the worst previous year in its
103-year history, and it even surpassed the $10.6 billion loss posted
by General Motors in 2005. But it is still short of the $23.5 billion
that G.M. lost in its worst year, 1992.

Most of Ford's red ink in 2006 came from the cost of shrinking and
reorganizing the company, buying out workers and writing down asset
values. Those charges accounted for $9.9 billion of the full-year loss
after taxes. But Ford's day-to-day business did very poorly as well,
with a loss of $2.8 billion on continuing operations, compared with a
$1.9 billion loss in 2005.

The figures were an unwelcome surprise to many Wall Street analysts,
who on average had forecast a loss of about $2.5 billion for the year,
excluding restructuring charges and other costs that Ford considers
one-time items.

Still, Ford's stock price ticked upward in morning trading, gaining
about 20 cents a share to trade near $8.40 a share at midday, roughly
where it was a year ago. The stock has been rising since mid-December,
in part because gasoline prices have eased a bit.

Ford's woes are greatest in North America, where its automotive
operations lost $6.1 billion before taxes, and sales revenue fell by 14
percent to $69.4 billion. The North American losses, four times as bad
as the year before, more than wiped out profits from automotive
operations overseas.

Jonathan Steinmetz, an automotive analyst at Morgan Stanley, called
those results "terrible," noting that the North American figures
represent a loss of $4,700 on every vehicle sold.

"The best we can say for the quarter is that it's over," Mr.
Steinmetz wrote in a note to clients this morning.

The fourth quarter of 2006 was the first full earnings period for Ford
under its new chief executive, Alan R. Mulally, who was hired away from
Boeing in September. With Mr. Mulally at the helm, Ford took the
unprecedented step of pledging nearly all of its United States assets,
from its factories to its blue oval logo, as collateral to borrow more
than $23 billion.

The financing leaves Ford with access to $46 billion in cash, although
it expects to burn through $17 billion by 2009. In addition, the
interest that Ford must pay will most likely drive down earnings from
automotive operations even more in 2007. But the company's chief
financial officer, Don R. Leclair, said Ford's overall results will
be "substantially better" this year.

Mr. Mulally insisted repeatedly today, on a conference call with
reporters and analysts, that Ford's effort to overhaul itself, known
as the Way Forward, is on track. But to outside observers, the
company's financial results have yet to give any sign of progress,
and Ford concedes that its market share will continue to slide at least
through September.

"We began aggressive actions in 2006 to restructure our automotive
business so we can operate profitably at lower volumes and with a
product mix that better reflects consumer demand for smaller, more fuel
efficient vehicles," Mr. Mulally said. "We fully recognize our
business reality and are dealing with it. We have a plan and we are on
track to deliver."

About 40 percent of Ford's hourly workers - some 30,000 employees
- have agreed to leave their jobs this year in exchange for buyout or
early-retirement packages, and the company is also shedding about
14,000 salaried positions. Those cuts, along with plans to close nine
plants by the end of next year, are part of the Way Forward plan, which
is meant to return the company to profitability in North America by
2009.

In 2006, Mr. Mulally said, Ford cut its annual structural costs by $1.4
billion. The restructuring plan calls for shaving off another $3.6
billion within two years.

Ford's financial deterioration has caused something of a brain drain
at the company, and the arrival of Mr. Mulally has been expected to
prompt some other executives to leave as well. Despite its huge losses,
Mr. Mulally acknowledged today that the company is considering offering
bonuses to some executives to persuade them to stay on.

"At the end of the day, our success going forward will depend on
having a skilled and motivated team," he said, adding that a final
decision would be made in the next few months.

The move could backfire by making unionized workers more resistant to
the concessions that Ford wants from them to become more competitive.
Ford did not pay any bonuses in 2005, when it made $1.44 billion.

Ford expects to lose its grip on second place in the American market
sometime this year, when it is overtaken by Toyota. Ford's market
share has fallen to 17.5 percent last year, from 25.7 percent a decade
ago. By the end of the year, Ford's internal projections show that
the company may even fall to fourth place, behind Toyota, the Chrysler
unit of DaimlerChrysler and General Motors, the market leader.

Mr. Mulally caused a stir in Detroit last month when he flew to Tokyo
to meet with Fujio Cho, the chairman of the Toyota Motor Company. Mr.
Mulally said he asked for Mr. Cho's advice on ways to streamline
Ford's manufacturing operations, and the that the two men had
discussed cooperation on some technical matters.

But Mr. Mulally could well have sought Mr. Cho's financial counsel,
too, because the Ford loss for 2006 happens to almost exactly match the
profit Toyota earned in 2005. That means there is a difference of more
than $25 billion between the two companies' financial performances.

The biggest blow to Ford in recent years has come from rising gasoline
prices, which depressed sales of the big pickups and sport utility
vehicles it depends on for profits.

Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a 1970 Mach 1 351C @
http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt
Mike Hunter - 25 Jan 2007 18:11 GMT
Stockholders know that when a company is not profitable and deductible
business expenses exceed income, that is a good  time to make tax free
capital investments.  Ford is spending billons on a half dozen new products
and modernizing its plants.

ccoury@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1169747050.063770.71860@a75g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
> January 25, 2007
>
[quoted text clipped - 126 lines]
> Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a 1970 Mach 1 351C @
> http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt
Hawk - 26 Jan 2007 02:56 GMT
> Stockholders know that when a company is not profitable and deductible
> business expenses exceed income, that is a good  time to make tax free
> capital investments.  Ford is spending billons on a half dozen new
> products and modernizing its plants.

and spending billions in paying off 50,000 slacker union workers to quit
Some O - 26 Jan 2007 05:21 GMT
> > Stockholders know that when a company is not profitable and deductible
> > business expenses exceed income, that is a good  time to make tax free
> > capital investments.  Ford is spending billons on a half dozen new
> > products and modernizing its plants.
>
> and spending billions in paying off 50,000 slacker union workers to quit

The problem isn't the workers, mostly management's and slightly the
union's errors.
Jeff - 27 Jan 2007 18:41 GMT
>> Stockholders know that when a company is not profitable and deductible
>> business expenses exceed income, that is a good  time to make tax free
>> capital investments.  Ford is spending billons on a half dozen new
>> products and modernizing its plants.
>
> and spending billions in paying off 50,000 slacker union workers to quit

They agreed to the contract. And, just because they are union workers
doesn't make them slackers.

Get a clue.

Jeff
bigjim@backpacker.com - 28 Jan 2007 22:30 GMT
Ford has no idea what to produce.  Most of their vehicles are dated at
introduction.  Look at the edge. Does it provide anything new? No.  
Why not think outside the box. Retro is hot so why not make a
modernized 60's era bronco. With removable top ford can compete with
Jeep for the open air crowd.

> > Stockholders know that when a company is not profitable and deductible
> > business expenses exceed income, that is a good  time to make tax free
> > capital investments.  Ford is spending billons on a half dozen new
> > products and modernizing its plants.and spending billions in paying off 50,000 slacker union workers to quit
Old Man - 25 Jan 2007 21:23 GMT
It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
supporter of queers.

> January 25, 2007
>
[quoted text clipped - 126 lines]
> Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a 1970 Mach 1 351C @
> http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt

It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
supporter of queers.
nospam - 25 Jan 2007 22:29 GMT
Whay do you say that?

> It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
> supporter of queers.
[quoted text clipped - 132 lines]
> It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
> supporter of queers.
Old Man - 25 Jan 2007 23:57 GMT
Ho here   http://www.boycottford.com/

> Whay do you say that?
>
[quoted text clipped - 134 lines]
>>It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
>>supporter of queers.
Ford Tech - 26 Jan 2007 01:55 GMT
OMG that site is such HORSESHIT!! They are siting Fords efforts to become
more diversified by adverstising in gay magazines and stuff??? Um, lets see
where does ford advertise for jobs? The answer to that is clear. They
advertise everywhere!!

I can not believe anyone would take stock in that website, or that Ford is
either for or against homosexual activities..

Let's be honest about this for a moment though. What is the fastest growing
group of people in the United States today? Its homosexual people, and what
do they buy? Cars... Who makes those cars? FORD.

Ok so now that we have that out of the way. Now, yeah they are advertising
diversity in their workforce, but at the same time they are gaining another
view on their vehicles. What do you want them to just forget about that
group altogether? I wouldnt. If you ask me its just smart advertising.

Those freakin homophobes with that website need to pull their heads out of
their a.s. Homosexuality is here to stay, might as well just get used to it.
Some 50,000 or 100,000 people in America out of some 300,000,000 people
boycotting one auto maker is not going to make that big of a difference in
their profits for it to matter who they support, or advertise with. In fact
they wouldnt do it if they didnt think it would be profitable for their
business.

Lets discuss that for a second. On one hand you are pissing off about what
maybe 1,000,000 radical homophobes, and on the other hand you are pleasing
about 5-6,000,000 homosexuals? So where is the downside to supporting
homosexuality? From where I sit, there isnt one.

Ford Tech

> Ho here   http://www.boycottford.com/
>
[quoted text clipped - 136 lines]
>>>It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
>>>supporter of queers.
Hawk - 26 Jan 2007 02:57 GMT
> OMG that site is such HORSESHIT!! They are siting Fords efforts to become
> more diversified by adverstising in gay magazines and stuff??? Um, lets
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Ford Tech

you must be a ford fag,
Ford Tech - 26 Jan 2007 05:56 GMT
>> OMG that site is such HORSESHIT!! They are siting Fords efforts to become
>> more diversified by adverstising in gay magazines and stuff??? Um, lets
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> you must be a ford fag,

You my friend can fall in with that worthless POS "Old Man". You predujicial
POS. Like I said, I am as straight as they come, but you need to learn to
treat all people fairly. Ford is just doing what most would consider a "good
business practice".
Jeff - 27 Jan 2007 18:46 GMT
> OMG that site is such HORSESHIT!! They are siting Fords efforts to become
> more diversified by adverstising in gay magazines and stuff??? Um, lets
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> growing group of people in the United States today? Its homosexual people,
> and what do they buy? Cars... Who makes those cars? FORD.

Bull.The fast growing group of people in the US are Latinos. As far as I
know, the rate of homosexuality is not any higher than before. What is
happening is a lot of closet doors are being opened. There are more gays
out, but they were always gay.

> Ok so now that we have that out of the way. Now, yeah they are advertising
> diversity in their workforce, but at the same time they are gaining
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> about 5-6,000,000 homosexuals? So where is the downside to supporting
> homosexuality? From where I sit, there isnt one.

Not only are they pleasing homosexuals (and bisexuals), but they are also
pleasing others who believe in the live and let live philosophy. Don't
forget, there 5-6M homosexuals have lots of brothers, sisters, spouses and
kids.

Jeff

> Ford Tech
>
[quoted text clipped - 138 lines]
>>>>It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
>>>>supporter of queers.
blackwingbear@gmail.com - 28 Jan 2007 13:52 GMT
Why is no-one willing to admit Ford lost that much money because of
their refusal to develop a more fuel-efficient engine? They don't even
have a decent hybrid and now Toyota is taking that market away!!! The
bigots are too occupied finding a group to hate (in this case, the
homos.. 40 years ago it was the blacks) to think logically and see the
real reason this sad company is dying..

> >>>>It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
> >>>>supporter of queers.
Jim Higgins - 28 Jan 2007 14:17 GMT
> Why is no-one willing to admit Ford lost that much money because of
> their refusal to develop a more fuel-efficient engine? They don't even
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> >>>>loving
>> >>>>supporter of queers.

That and building a big backlog of *former* customers with long memories
about being dealt with very poorly by Ford.  Those folks are probably saying
"good riddance".
Jeff - 29 Jan 2007 02:09 GMT
>> Why is no-one willing to admit Ford lost that much money because of
>> their refusal to develop a more fuel-efficient engine? They don't even
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> about being dealt with very poorly by Ford.  Those folks are probably
> saying "good riddance".

It is really hard to tell what most people who are in the market for buying
a Ford think. To do this right, you need a really big survey. And even the
results of really well-done surveys don't explain the behavior of people.

And I bet a lot of people feel that Toyota and Honda let them down, too.

I think another difference between Ford and Toyota and Honda is that Toyota
and Honda have better first cars than Ford. (At least, that would explain
why more Honda small cars and Toyota small cars are sold than Ford small
cars, even though they have fewer dealers.) So someone buys a Honda Fit or
Civic and in a few years wants to go to a better car. They're more likely to
buy a Honda than a Ford because they have experience with a Honda. Likewise,
people with a Totota Corolla will be more likely to buy another Toyota than
a Ford. And people with a Ford will be more likely to buy a Ford. But, the
top for selling cars in the US were Camry, Corolla, Accord, and Civic. The
Civic and Corolla, combined, were sold four times as often as the Focus, the
number 1 selling Ford car. So a lot more people who are looking for a
replacement for their small car are going to start at Honda and Toyota
rather than Ford.

Just like a lot of people who have Dells are going to start shopping for a
new computer at Dell rather than HP or Levono. (And a lot of people who have
Dells are going to start at HP or Levono because of Dell's treatment.)

So, for Ford to really suceed (and GM too), they need to start with selling
really good small cars. IMHO, Ford hasn't suceeded that well at this.

Jeff
C. E. White - 29 Jan 2007 22:17 GMT
>> Why is no-one willing to admit Ford lost that much money because of
>> their refusal to develop a more fuel-efficient engine? They don't even
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> about being dealt with very poorly by Ford.  Those folks are probably
> saying "good riddance".

And yet in JD Powers Surveys. Ford Dealer rate much higher than Toyota
dealers.  Everybody seems to point at Toyota as the prime example of how to
run an automobile company, yet in my mind it is one of the poorest. Here's
why:

- Toyota dealers are rated near the bottom in Customer surveys
- Toyota vehicles are mostly (Prius excepted) well behind the state of the
art. It's been twenty years since anything but the Corlla's sheetmetal was
significantly updated. The latest Camry represents the biggest refresh since
the early 90s - and guess what -  there are major transmission issues,
complaints about very poor throttle response, etc. The truck line up is
strictly second rate. Even the all new, we really mean it this time, full
size Tundra is second rate compared to the new Chevy, and no better than the
3 year old F150 design.
- Toyotas have mediocre reliability. Despite claims to the contrary, Toyota
rate just about the same as Fords in reliability surveys
- Toyotas have very poor Insurance Industry Injury Loss Ratings (despite
often having good or very good crash test results)
- Toyotas are overpriced compared to similar vehicles from other
manufacturers (even Japanese manufacturers).

So why is Toyota so successful? Friend of mine that like Toyota haven't
owned anything but Toyota for 20 years. Some have never owned a Ford or GM
product, yet they routinely talk about how much better their Toyota is than
anything else. I have owned Fords, a Plymouth, an Audi, Nissans, a Toyota,
multiple British cars, GM cars, etc. I don't see much difference between
contemporary makes. I do see a lot of difference between a 1978 Ford and a
2007 Toyota. And I think this is the problem, people who rave about Toyota
are often comparing their current Toyota to some US car that their Father
owned.

Ed
Jim Higgins - 29 Jan 2007 23:02 GMT
>>> Why is no-one willing to admit Ford lost that much money because of
>>> their refusal to develop a more fuel-efficient engine? They don't even
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Ed

You wouldn't have an alternate persona of "Mike Hunter" would you?  J.D.
Power is very beholden to Detroit and Consumer Reports is *much* more
reliable than J.D. Power, they are beholden to no one.
Jeff - 30 Jan 2007 00:23 GMT
<...>

>> And yet in JD Powers Surveys. Ford Dealer rate much higher than Toyota
>> dealers.  Everybody seems to point at Toyota as the prime example of how
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> Power is very beholden to Detroit and Consumer Reports is *much* more
> reliable than J.D. Power, they are beholden to no one.

My impression is that Consumer Reports is slanted towards the Asian car
makers.

There are a lot of changes besides the sheet metal since 1987. However,
there never was a sudden change. Rather, lots of incremental improvements.
The cars are all front-wheel drive (or maybe all wheel drive), have a longer
wheelbase, are considered compacts (not sub compacts) and have more room and
comfort, have better suspensions, the engines have more power and are all
DOHC. They also have a lot more electronics (no more tape players), better
pollution controls, ABS, air bags (and I don't mean the talkative
passenger), more gears in the transmission and probably better gas milage,
too.

The Toyota is not a flashy car. But it works. And works well for Toyota,
being the #1 selling car in the US and the world.

I don't know why Toyota dealers rate worse than other dealers. It might be
that they don't offer deep discounts like they do at Ford and GM. Maybe it
is something else. Toyota ranks about average on all measures, however.
http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/sales-satisfaction That probably puts
it in the 25th percentile overall.

Jeff

Jeff
razz - 30 Jan 2007 00:43 GMT
> <...>
>
[quoted text clipped - 60 lines]
>
> Jeff

On a side note, I'm not dissing Toy's, but I'm sick of hearing people
extolling the virtues of Jap scrap. Domestics made great kill proof engines
also, 2.0 Ford, slant six Dodge( pretty much runs with no oil  ), 302 Ford,
350 GM, most of these old iron horses are no longer.
Jeff - 30 Jan 2007 05:19 GMT
<...>

> On a side note, I'm not dissing Toy's, but I'm sick of hearing people
> extolling the virtues of Jap scrap. Domestics made great kill proof
> engines
> also, 2.0 Ford, slant six Dodge( pretty much runs with no oil  ), 302
> Ford,
> 350 GM, most of these old iron horses are no longer.

I don't think any of these engines are still being made, except as original
equipment factory replacements in Mexico and for racing. I took apart a lot
of these engines in my younger days in high school and college. I can't
think of any Ford 2.0 engines that I would call "old iron horses." I think
the 2.0 was an aluminum block and cast iron head engine. I don't know if
there was another Ford 2.0 engine, except for the one in the Escort and
Contour, but that was all aluminum.

My favorite was the 350 Olds Diesel. Some of those were really durable and
lasted a long time. (Most weren't.) But you were able to change the cam,
push  rods and cylinder heads to gas models (I think from a 455), and you
had a really durable engine. The problem that GM and Peugeot had with their
diesel engines was that they came from gas designs, so they weren't durable
enough.

IMHO, other old iron horses include the 240 Ford and 250 Chevy straight
sixes, the big block V8 (GM) and the 3.8 liter Olds and Dodge Hemi.

The 3.8 Olds is still made, but has been revised 4 or 5 times. Changes
include the crankshaft design, piston design and metal so that piston rings
can be closer to the top of the piston, to improve efficiency and decrease
unburned hydrocarbons.

I don't think any others of these are still made. I know the Hemi is made,
and although it is a similar design to the old Hemi, it is made on a new
production line and wasn't made for 30 years.

One of the things that killed the old designs is that the new production
lines are much more efficient, requiring far fewer workers than the old
ones. And the car makers designed better engines over time, too. And they
make smaller, more fuel efficient engines (except for the Hemi).

Jeff
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2007 13:06 GMT
> I don't think any of these engines are still being made, except as
> original equipment factory replacements in Mexico and for racing. I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> except for the one in the Escort and Contour, but that was all
> aluminum.

The original 2.0L OHC Ford engine was cast iron block and head. So was
the 2.3L. Ford never built an engine with an aluminum block and cast
iron head (Chevy did that for the Vega). Ford did build some cast iron
block / aluminum head engines. I think all the fours are now aluminum
block (with liners) and aluminum head.

Ed
Jeff - 30 Jan 2007 14:42 GMT
>> I don't think any of these engines are still being made, except as
>> original equipment factory replacements in Mexico and for racing. I took
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> aluminum head engines. I think all the fours are now aluminum block (with
> liners) and aluminum head.

You're probably right. I was confusing the Vega and the Pinto. I took them
both apart.

Jeff

> Ed
Mike Hunter - 31 Jan 2007 17:24 GMT
The Pinto engines were manufactured with iron blocks and heads.  I recently
had to redo the head on the 2L engine in my 71 Pinto, that was worn because
of no lead in the fuel, that had 299K miles on the clock.  That was the
first the engine was apart.

Our  friend Jeff basis his opinion on his personal experience and biases, as
do most of us.  Most of those that post in the NGs are used car buyers,or
those, that if they did buy new, they keep their vehicle much longer than
the average new car buyer.  Their opinions  are based a perhaps fewer than
ten OLD vehicles  My experience if far greater than average, however.  I
have owned over 70 vehicles, like most folks buying used at first, but most
since the late forties were purchased new.  I have owned European and
Japanese imports as well as domestics from Hudson, Studebaker, Nash
Chrysler, Ford and GM.. All types from econoboxes to sport cars to luxury
vehicles.  Of all of them, maybe a half dozen were problematic.

I owed a fleet service business, that operated in four states, for ten
years.  We serviced thousand of vehicles of most brands every month, many
run to ultra high mileages.  There is no brand that is demonstrably 'better'
than any other, on average, in terms of longevity.  We saw as many problems
with Japanese vehicles as we did with domestics, on average.  The big
difference is parts are more costly for Japanese vehicles, as well as higher
insurance costs.  The fact is every manufacturer is building good reliable,
long lasting, vehicles today, if given the proper PREVENTIVE maintenance.
Japanese superiority is more myth than fact.  Toyota was number one in
recalls in 2006 and is number one so far in 2007, as well.

When I am asked which brand to buy, my advice is drive all of those models
that suit your needs then buy the one, with the total drive home price, that
best suits your budget.  The fact is if you actually understand what ALL of
those surveys are saying is, like all manufactured products, that they ALL
have a failure rate of around 2%. There is no reason to spend more hoping to
get one of the 98% of the good ones, no mater what brand mane is on the
grill.

What I find strange is, one seldom sees domestic buyers denigrating imports
in import NGs but import buyer are always denigrating domestic in domestic
NGs.   There millions more Americans every year who buy domestics, than
imports.  Who are the import buyer trying to convince, themselves?    ;)

mike

>> The original 2.0L OHC Ford engine was cast iron block and head. So was
>> the 2.3L. Ford never built an engine with an aluminum block and cast iron
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
>> Ed
Jeff - 31 Jan 2007 20:29 GMT
> The Pinto engines were manufactured with iron blocks and heads.  I
> recently had to redo the head on the 2L engine in my 71 Pinto, that was
> worn because of no lead in the fuel, that had 299K miles on the clock.
> That was the first the engine was apart.

Actually, not having lead in the fuel doesn't matter. It was thought that
the lead acts as a valve lubricant, but it was later found out that this was
only under certain circumstances. In the vast majority of cases, the lack of
lead in gas makes no difference.

> Our  friend Jeff basis his opinion on his personal experience and biases,
> as do most of us.  Most of those that post in the NGs are used car
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> run to ultra high mileages.  There is no brand that is demonstrably
> 'better' than any other, on average, in terms of longevity.

Do you have a database where you track all the vehicles and are able to do
statistically valid comparisons?

Unfortunately, unless you did this way, it is very hard to catch trends. The
human brain is not wired to do this properly. In fact, the human brain is
very bad at this. Think of all the people who are afraid to fly but not
drive. Driving is far more dangerous.

If you ask doctors which diesease do they see most commonly and what
percentage of patients have it, they are notorious for getting the
percentage wrong.

So, unless you actually have real data to go on, I say your longevity data
is not reliable.

>  We saw as many problems with Japanese vehicles as we did with domestics,
> on average.  The big difference is parts are more costly for Japanese
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> more hoping to get one of the 98% of the good ones, no mater what brand
> mane is on the grill.

This is correct.

> What I find strange is, one seldom sees domestic buyers denigrating
> imports in import NGs but import buyer are always denigrating domestic in
> domestic NGs.   There millions more Americans every year who buy
> domestics, than imports.  Who are the import buyer trying to convince,
> themselves?    ;)

Who are the domestic buyers trying to convince? Themselves? B-)

Jeff

> mike
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>>
>>> Ed
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2007 13:00 GMT
> I don't know why Toyota dealers rate worse than other dealers. It
> might be that they don't offer deep discounts like they do at Ford
> and GM. Maybe it is something else. Toyota ranks about average on
> all measures, however.
> http://www.jdpower.com/autos/ratings/sales-satisfaction That
> probably puts it in the 25th percentile overall.

Try this link:

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/releases/pressrelease.asp?ID=2006250

Ed
Jeff - 30 Jan 2007 15:12 GMT
>> I don't know why Toyota dealers rate worse than other dealers. It might
>> be that they don't offer deep discounts like they do at Ford and GM.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Ed

Thanks. Toyota was ranked near the industry average, 847 (industry ave.) vs
832 (toyota) what seems to be about a 200-point scale (difference between
best and worst). I am not sure how important those 15 points are. What's
more worrisome is the company they keep, they are near Jeep, Chrysler,
Dodge, Kia and VW. Are they ranked relatively low just because they don't
give much on price? Is it the long wait? A whole bunch of little things?

Toyota is not as interested in the best costumer experience (that would be
giving away cars, with a smile of course) as it is in selling the most cars
they can.Toyota and all the other car makers are interested at improving the
costumer experience, because that helps sell cars. I am nearly positive that
all the car makers have requirements for space and service that the dealers
have to meet to keep their dealerships. So for a dealer to be a great dealer
from a JDPower sort of view is not the same as being a good dealer for a
Toyota point of view or the bottom cash line point of view dealers have. If
costumers come away a little less happy because they had to wait a little
while longer, but  they still get the sale, Toyota and the dealers are not
going to be too upset. It might hurt the JD Power numbers, but those are not
the numbers that matter.

Another thing to realize about the JD Power numbers is that these numbers
reflect only the sales that were made. Let's say I go to my local dealer to
buy a car. The salesman says, "I have a deal for you. I will sell you this
new sedan for only $1000 over the list price. I will throw in undercoating,
an extended warranty and free tires for life (as long as you take it into
our over-priced shop for balancing and allignment every 6 months or 6,000
mi) for only $5000. And the advertising fee is only $800." Needless to say,
I would seek a vehicle elsewhere. But this bad experience would not be
reflected in JD Power's numbers. However, if I found a car I really wanted
at the next dealership, had a competent but not overly friendly salesman who
tried to bundle financing and the trade in in one transaction (bad idea),
even though the JD Power rating # for the second dealer is not that good, it
was a far better experience that the first one.

Finally, for brands like Ford and Chevy, well, there are far more dealers.
So let's say I really like the Honda Fit. I saw it at the NYC Auto Show, my
friend has one, and I really like it. Well, while there are four Ford
dealers I could go to within 25 mi., there is only one Honda dealer. They're
all good dealers with good, well-earn reputations. Some are better working
with one type of costumer than others. I would end up buying from the Ford
deal that best suited my personality. I am still going to get a good
experience at the Honda dealer, but it probably won't match my personality
like the Ford dealer, so it will end up with a lower rating.

And how bad an experience is the average car-buying experience, anyway?

Jeff
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2007 19:58 GMT
> Thanks. Toyota was ranked near the industry average, 847 (industry ave.)
> vs 832 (toyota) what seems to be about a 200-point scale (difference
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> they don't give much on price? Is it the long wait? A whole bunch of
> little things?

Well, personally I have been struck by the arrogant attitude of the three
closest Toyota dealers. They are  masters of the BIG Lie. They quote you a
relatively decent price, but when you ask for the bottom line they tack on
the biggest phony doc fee I have ever seen. One dealer keeps talking about
the low prices of cars in the "clearance zone," but when you decide you want
one of the "specials" the drive away price is literally thousands higher
than you thought. I refuse to do business with people that act like this. My
SO had to go 50 miles away to get a decent price on a RAV4. Even then the
price for the RAV4 was thousand higher than for an Escape with similar
equipment. At least the guys at that dealership acted like they were happy
you bought a car from them, instead of acting like they were doing you a
favor by letting you buy one of their oh so special cars.

Ed
who - 30 Jan 2007 17:41 GMT
> > I don't know why Toyota dealers rate worse than other dealers. It
> > might be that they don't offer deep discounts like they do at Ford
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Ed

So sales people selling high priced high margin vehicles suck up to the
customer more.
No surprise there.
razz - 30 Jan 2007 00:31 GMT
CR is the worst in comparing vehicles. They consistently rate some cars
better than the other, YET, it is the same vehicle under a different badge.
I've seen them rate a motor plagued with problems, yet the same motor in
another vehicle scored highest in reliability. And as a former Toy mechanic,
they are no better than the domestics, they are plagued with just as many
problems. I've even seen the dealership pull in there customers with a free
oil change and bumper to bumper inspection free of charge, just so they
could replace the faulty head gaskets under cloak so the media didn't get
wind of this, about the same time the domestics had the media come down on
them for faulty gaskets. Never heard about toy's problem did you. Toy got
the head gaskets from  the same supplier as the domestics

> >>> Why is no-one willing to admit Ford lost that much money because of
> >>> their refusal to develop a more fuel-efficient engine? They don't even
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> Power is very beholden to Detroit and Consumer Reports is *much* more
> reliable than J.D. Power, they are beholden to no one.
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2007 12:51 GMT
> You wouldn't have an alternate persona of "Mike Hunter" would you?
> J.D. Power is very beholden to Detroit and Consumer Reports is
> *much* more reliable than J.D. Power, they are beholden to no one.

JD Powers runs surveys all over the globe. It is ridiculous for you to
claim they slant their surveys towards Detroit products (just look a
their list of winners - if they were so beholden to Detroit, why so
many non-Detroit winners). While Consumer Reports is not beholden to a
particular manufacturer, the CR editors clearly have their own
opinions AND they have to satisfy their readers. The CR survey is not
scientifically sound. It is not a random survey, it is not
comprehensive survey, and it is not even well worded. CR surveys only
it's own readers - people who are likely to share CR's opinions. Only
about a third of the people who get the survey bother to respond at
all - and the ones who respond are even more likely to be very devoted
readers that share the opinions of the CR editors. CR depends upon the
respondents to decide what is a problem.  For some vehicles they base
the result on as few as 100 responses - hardly a sufficient sample
size for a vehicle produced in the tens of thousands. And finally, the
CR Survey is as much a fund raising project as a survey designed to
gather information.  Yet people constantly treat the CR survey as if
it was statistically valid. It isn't. CR makes interesting reading,
but it hardly represents the final word on anything. It is just one
more opinion to be considered. I read CR all the time. I even value
the opinions of the CR editors - but - I actually go and try things
out for myself. Last year I needed a new farm truck. CR's constant
drum beat for the Tundra convinced me it should be at the top of the
list for my new truck. I tried three different Tundras. Consumer
Reports claimed the Tundra has a very smooth engine. All three of the
ones I tested sounded like rock crushers when they were first started.
Salesmen at two different dealer said this was normal. If a Ford did
that, people would be in demanding a new engine because of piston
slap. Consumer Reports talked about how roomy the cab was. I found the
cab to be cramped compared to my old F150, with marginal head room.
Consumer Reports talked about how quiet the Tundra was (not a big
concern for a farm truck), but I found the truck no quieter than a 14
year old F150. Compared to my old F150 with an inline six, I found the
Tundra's V-8 to be weak at the bottom end. I  am sure it would out run
the F150 in a drag race, but around town it was a dog off the line and
you really had to get on it to stay up with traffic. However, the
biggest negative was the arrogance of the salesmen. The Tundra was
clearly overpriced. For the price of a minimally equipped Tundra, I
could buy an F250 that would haul more, tow more, and last at least as
long. I didn't want an F250 however. I wanted a smaller truck, and the
I liked the size of the Tundra. I even tried to get a deal on a
Tacoma, but the prices on those were actually higher then for the
Tundra (I  could not figure that out). So I ended up in a Nissan
Frontier. It is not my favorite truck (I miss the old F150) but at
least it was thousands less expensive that a Toyota. Before you ask -
I don't like the current F150s. They were clearly designed for people
who should be buying a car. But, it seems the Tundras were too.

Ed
Jim Higgins - 30 Jan 2007 13:13 GMT
>> You wouldn't have an alternate persona of "Mike Hunter" would you? J.D.
>> Power is very beholden to Detroit and Consumer Reports is *much* more
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> Ed

Bottom line is that the buying public finds Toyota and Honda's offerings
better than Ford's-Ford is floating between #3 and #4 in results released.
Ford is flushing plants and people and Toyota is building plants in the US
and hiring Americans.  Ford has been exporting work to Mexico, Canada, China
(DCX is doing even more in China).  Past Ford (and GM & DCX) poor management
decisions and treatment of *former* customers is why the Old Big Three is
being replaced by the New Big Three.  People vote by means of their
purchases of new vehicles.  The Old Big Three boards have turned American
icons into scrap metal.
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2007 14:31 GMT
> Bottom line is that the buying public finds Toyota and Honda's
> offerings better than Ford's-Ford is floating between #3 and #4 in
> results released.

But why? Toyota products are nothing special in terms of engineering,
ride, power, handling, etc. The designs of many Toyota models are
comparatively old and very conservative. Claims of Toyota reliability
are over blown. Many Toyota models have mediocre insurance injury loss
ratings. And Toyota prices are often much higher than comparable cars
from other manufacturers. So what is the attraction? My SO has a new
RAV4. It is a nice little Station Wagon (whoops - SUV) BUT, I don't
find it any nicer than my younger sister's 6 year old Escape. The RAV4
is bigger, but the drivng posiiton is worse. It may well be reliable,
but since my sister has spent less than $20 on repairs for her Escape,
can it possibly be more reliable? I could buy an Escape equipped like
my SO's RAV4 for at least $3000 less. Yet my SO would not even
consider an Escape. In fact, she didn't consider anything but the
RAV4. Why? I don't know. Mostly she just likes Toyotas. Her Father has
a Tacoma, and her Mother a Camry. Neither of them have owned an
American car in at least 25 years. Interestingly, my older Sister has
a Honda Civic (in the past she has owend a Jetta, an Esccort, an
Accord, and a Pinto). She is shopping for a new car. She wants an
Escape, probably because she likes my other Sister's Escape. BTW, I
did try to get her to at least look at my SO's RAV4. She isn't
interested (but then she is - hmmm - frugal).

Ed
Jeff - 30 Jan 2007 16:52 GMT
>> Bottom line is that the buying public finds Toyota and Honda's offerings
>> better than Ford's-Ford is floating between #3 and #4 in results
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> try to get her to at least look at my SO's RAV4. She isn't interested (but
> then she is - hmmm - frugal).

And what's wrong with being cheap? I have a '97 Contour with 135k mi on it.
It has a total value of around $1500. I may replacee it with '03 Civic
Hybrid if the price is right. Otherwise, I will continue to run it as long
as it is safe.

JEff

> Ed
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2007 20:06 GMT
> And what's wrong with being cheap? I have a '97 Contour with 135k mi on
> it. It has a total value of around $1500. I may replacee it with '03 Civic
> Hybrid if the price is right. Otherwise, I will continue to run it as long
> as it is safe.

Nothing wrong with being frugal. At least in my mind, being cheap is not
such a good thing. But words mean different things to different people. You
probably qualify as Frugal :) My Sister borders on cheap (or more correctly
uncaring). Her 1997 Honda Civic is looking pretty ratty, plus the clutch is
not long for this world. The car also needs new tires. If it was strictly
used for short trips, it might be OK. But for her frequent long trips, she
feels it is marginal (so do I). Money is not a problem, so she has decided
she wants a new car - but - she keeps putting it off. This is worrisome to
me since she hasn't had a car meet a good end since her 1973 Pinto (I bought
that in good condition). Her first Honda was totaled in a wreck, the Jetta
had the transmission self destruct, and the Escort was totaled in a wreck. I
think she is on target to have the Civic either get wrecked (not the worst
end if she is unhurt) or have the transmission blow....

Ed
Some O - 30 Jan 2007 21:01 GMT
> And what's wrong with being cheap? I have a '97 Contour with 135k mi on it.
> It has a total value of around $1500. I may replacee it with '03 Civic
> Hybrid if the price is right. Otherwise, I will continue to run it as long
> as it is safe.

That's a young car. My Concord is a '95 and it's running as new, but
only about 80k miles.
I would have traded it at 10 yrs, but I  like it MUCH better than what
Chrysler has to offer.

I may switch to Ford I feel the Fusion is nice , but what I really need
is a Fusion SW and the related CUVs aren't what I want.
bigjim@backpacker.com - 30 Jan 2007 00:40 GMT
Fuel efficient engines aren't the problem.  If people really cared
about that they wouldnt be buying the latest gargantuan SUV's.  I have
trouble with your claim of Toyota's "mediocre" reliability.  They are
always rated quite well in the magazines and by real people.  Ford had
to extend the focus warranty cuz they sucked at introduction..   I've
had four cars in my life. First was a 73 Mercury Montego-  It was 12
years old when I got it and I enoyed it.  First new car was an 86
Dodge Daytona.  Relatively trouble free except it ate brakes and the
AC needed yearly recharging.  Up until 100k miles then it started
really going to hell.  Got my money worth.  Second new car was a 94
Isuzu Trooper.  In 140k miles the only non maintenance items it needed
were a tape deck and master cyclinder (both warranteed).  Great truck,
handled any climate terrain I threw at it and very roomy and
practical.  After that was hit and totalled I bought an 04 Subaru
Outback.  In 76k miles Only needed brakes tires and weatherstripping
by door.  I DEMAND absolute reliability and am spoiled by owning two
quality Jap vehicles.   Father in law has an 05 Ford 500. Needed
repainting due to paint peeling .  Ford covered it but come on paint
should last.   Wife has an 01 Windstar.  There is some electrical
short that kills the dome light.  Some strange transaxle noises and
just general sloppiness in 36k miles.  When that goes, the Sienna will
be on the short list.  Easily an 8-10 year keeper with minimal
repair.  My next car will likely be the Wrangler Unlimited.  I'm not
excited about Jeep quality but they have a unique vehicle.  If Toyota
did the FJ cruiser right and made it like the original with removable
top I'd have one now.  Ford could do a retro Bronco, But they put out
the Edge and other poorly focused vehicles.  Ford does make the best A/
C though.

> > <blackwingb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:1169992369.502292.287870@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Ed- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
Jeff - 30 Jan 2007 05:23 GMT
> Fuel efficient engines aren't the problem.  If people really cared
> about that they wouldnt be buying the latest gargantuan SUV's.  I have
> trouble with your claim of Toyota's "mediocre" reliability.  They are
> always rated quite well in the magazines and by real people.

I think the magazines are slanted towards Asain cars. And I wonder if real
people report problems with US cars differently than Asian brands, based on
expectations (it is one of those rare things for the Asians, but expected
for US cars).

The problem is that in a newsgroup like this, you get only a small sampling,
and some of the people are like, well, me. That's a red flag that the
experience of most people aren't represented by the sample here.

Jeff
gornk - 26 Jan 2007 00:40 GMT
Re: Ford Motors  loses $12.7 billion in 2006

> It might have something to do with the boycott.Ford is a supporter of queers.

yes,

www,boycottford.com has definitely had an impact. (the Ford Foundation
has been exposed funneling hundreds of millions into the gay agenda)
The boycott has been MASSIVE.

January 25, 2007

By Nick Bunkley
New York Times

DEARBORN, Mich., Jan. 25 - The Ford Motor Company had the worst year
in its history in 2006, losing $12.7 billion and suffering sharp
erosion of its share of the United States auto market.

Ford lost $5.8 billion in the fourth quarter alone, the company
reported today. In the same period a year earlier, it lost a
comparatively trivial $74 million.

The company took in $160.1 billion in revenue in 2006, 9 percent less
than in 2005.

Ford's full-year loss, equivalent to $6.79 per share, far exceeded
the $7.39 billion it lost in 1992, the worst previous year in its
103-year history, and it even surpassed the $10.6 billion loss posted
by General Motors in 2005. But it is still short of the $23.5 billion
that G.M. lost in its worst year, 1992.

Most of Ford's red ink in 2006 came from the cost of shrinking and
reorganizing the company, buying out workers and writing down asset
values. Those charges accounted for $9.9 billion of the full-year loss
after taxes. But Ford's day-to-day business did very poorly as well,
with a loss of $2.8 billion on continuing operations, compared with a
$1.9 billion loss in 2005.

The figures were an unwelcome surprise to many Wall Street analysts,
who on average had forecast a loss of about $2.5 billion for the year,
excluding restructuring charges and other costs that Ford considers
one-time items.

Still, Ford's stock price ticked upward in morning trading, gaining
about 20 cents a share to trade near $8.40 a share at midday, roughly
where it was a year ago. The stock has been rising since mid-December,
in part because gasoline prices have eased a bit.

Ford's woes are greatest in North America, where its automotive
operations lost $6.1 billion before taxes, and sales revenue fell by 14
percent to $69.4 billion. The North American losses, four times as bad
as the year before, more than wiped out profits from automotive
operations overseas.

Jonathan Steinmetz, an automotive analyst at Morgan Stanley, called
those results "terrible," noting that the North American figures
represent a loss of $4,700 on every vehicle sold.

"The best we can say for the quarter is that it's over," Mr.
Steinmetz wrote in a note to clients this morning.

The fourth quarter of 2006 was the first full earnings period for Ford
under its new chief executive, Alan R. Mulally, who was hired away from
Boeing in September. With Mr. Mulally at the helm, Ford took the
unprecedented step of pledging nearly all of its United States assets,
from its factories to its blue oval logo, as collateral to borrow more
than $23 billion.

The financing leaves Ford with access to $46 billion in cash, although
it expects to burn through $17 billion by 2009. In addition, the
interest that Ford must pay will most likely drive down earnings from
automotive operations even more in 2007. But the company's chief
financial officer, Don R. Leclair, said Ford's overall results will
be "substantially better" this year.

Mr. Mulally insisted repeatedly today, on a conference call with
reporters and analysts, that Ford's effort to overhaul itself, known
as the Way Forward, is on track. But to outside observers, the
company's financial results have yet to give any sign of progress,
and Ford concedes that its market share will continue to slide at least
through September.

"We began aggressive actions in 2006 to restructure our automotive
business so we can operate profitably at lower volumes and with a
product mix that better reflects consumer demand for smaller, more fuel
efficient vehicles," Mr. Mulally said. "We fully recognize our
business reality and are dealing with it. We have a plan and we are on
track to deliver."

About 40 percent of Ford's hourly workers - some 30,000 employees
- have agreed to leave their jobs this year in exchange for buyout or
early-retirement packages, and the company is also shedding about
14,000 salaried positions. Those cuts, along with plans to close nine
plants by the end of next year, are part of the Way Forward plan, which
is meant to return the company to profitability in North America by
2009.

In 2006, Mr. Mulally said, Ford cut its annual structural costs by $1.4
billion. The restructuring plan calls for shaving off another $3.6
billion within two years.

Ford's financial deterioration has caused something of a brain drain
at the company, and the arrival of Mr. Mulally has been expected to
prompt some other executives to leave as well. Despite its huge losses,
Mr. Mulally acknowledged today that the company is considering offering
bonuses to some executives to persuade them to stay on.

"At the end of the day, our success going forward will depend on
having a skilled and motivated team," he said, adding that a final
decision would be made in the next few months.

The move could backfire by making unionized workers more resistant to
the concessions that Ford wants from them to become more competitive.
Ford did not pay any bonuses in 2005, when it made $1.44 billion.

Ford expects to lose its grip on second place in the American market
sometime this year, when it is overtaken by Toyota. Ford's market
share has fallen to 17.5 percent last year, from 25.7 percent a decade
ago. By the end of the year, Ford's internal projections show that
the company may even fall to fourth place, behind Toyota, the Chrysler
unit of DaimlerChrysler and General Motors, the market leader.

Mr. Mulally caused a stir in Detroit last month when he flew to Tokyo
to meet with Fujio Cho, the chairman of the Toyota Motor Company. Mr.
Mulally said he asked for Mr. Cho's advice on ways to streamline
Ford's manufacturing operations, and the that the two men had
discussed cooperation on some technical matters.

But Mr. Mulally could well have sought Mr. Cho's financial counsel,
too, because the Ford loss for 2006 happens to almost exactly match the
profit Toyota earned in 2005. That means there is a difference of more
than $25 billion between the two companies' financial performances.

The biggest blow to Ford in recent years has come from rising gasoline
prices, which depressed sales of the big pickups and sport utility
vehicles it depends on for profits.

Yet another $.02 worth from a proud owner of a 1970 Mach 1 351C @
http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjt

> gcmcco...@yahoo.com wrote:
> > January 25, 2007
[quoted text clipped - 128 lines]
> >http://community.webshots.com/album/18644819fHAehGJAjtIt might have something to do with theboycott.Fordis a faggot loving
> supporter of queers.
R - 27 Jan 2007 02:12 GMT
Ford made a terrible unreliable product and had the worst service in the
country. It is not wonder they are going broke. As much as I hate to see the
NA automakers in trouble, I think Ford has earned their problems.
R

> Re: Ford Motors  loses $12.7 billion in 2006
>
[quoted text clipped - 271 lines]
>> >something to do with theboycott.Fordis a faggot loving
>> supporter of queers.
Jeff - 27 Jan 2007 18:56 GMT
Ford also supports stem cell research and reproductive choice. And, they
advertised on the "Two and a Half Men" show.

So they support respect, even if the people aren't like us, stem research
and reproductive choice.  Sounds a company I like more and more.

Jeff
Jeff - 26 Jan 2007 02:17 GMT
> It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
> supporter of queers.

Yeah, right.

I would rather give my business to Ford because they treat all people as
human.

Jeff
News Skimmer - 26 Jan 2007 03:22 GMT
...and dog gonnit....people like me.

Treat people as human. WTF? They treated me like sh.t when I figured out I
had a burned valve in my 32v navigator while still in warranty and they
declined to help me.

Maybe I should have worn a skirt.

>> It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
>> supporter of queers.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Jeff
Jeff - 26 Jan 2007 14:48 GMT
> ...and dog gonnit....people like me.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Maybe I should have worn a skirt.

Or got a lawyer.

>>> It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
>>> supporter of queers.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>
>> Jeff
SnoMan - 26 Jan 2007 15:09 GMT
>Or got a lawyer.

Or used better gas. Lower octane fuel cause valves to vibrate in seats
when it knocks even below a audible level. This leads to erosion and
togehter with higher exhaust temps  from retarded spark timing needed
with lower octane fuel, leads to eventual burning of valves. They do
not tell you that though.
-----------------
TheSnoMan.com
Brent P - 26 Jan 2007 15:32 GMT
>>Or got a lawyer.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> with lower octane fuel, leads to eventual burning of valves. They do
> not tell you that though.

The octane rating needed is clearly stated in the owners manual. If
higher octane than what is in the owners manual is needed, then the
resulting failures is still the manufacturer's fault.
Some O - 26 Jan 2007 18:16 GMT
> Or used better gas. Lower octane fuel cause valves to vibrate in seats
> when it knocks even below a audible level. This leads to erosion and
> togehter with higher exhaust temps  from retarded spark timing needed
> with lower octane fuel, leads to eventual burning of valves. They do
> not tell you that though.
Regular fuel is fine if the engine is designed for it.
I notice some engines with a CR too high for regular octane specify
regular can be used. Sure let it knock so we can adjust it, a sure way
to the troubles you mention.
IMO Toyota's Camry 3.5L V6 has too high a CR for the specified regular
fuel.
I Emailed Toyota about this and they said premium fuel is needed for
best performance.  We could add for longer engine life eh!
C. E. White - 26 Jan 2007 19:48 GMT
>> Or used better gas. Lower octane fuel cause valves to vibrate in seats
>> when it knocks even below a audible level. This leads to erosion and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> I Emailed Toyota about this and they said premium fuel is needed for
> best performance.  We could add for longer engine life eh!

I doubt if using premium fuel in modern engines with knock sensors has a
significant effect on engine life (assuming the PCM has enough adjustment
range to compensate for the use of regular fuel). With the knock sensor
strategy,  the PCM adjusts the timing until knock is detected and then
adjusts it back down to the point that the knock is eliminated - BUT - for
this sort of strategy to work it has to occasionally (based on some sort of
algorithm) advance the timing until knock is detected. I suppose it might be
that with premium fuel the engine never knocks under any allowed ignition
advance but I doubt it. Ford did recommend premium fuel for the 32V
Navigator, but the knock sensors do protect the engine when regular is used.
The 2V Expedition version of the engine was specified to run on regular
fuel, but the PCM would adjust the timing if you used premium fuel and
increase the performance slightly. I owned two Expedition, and in over 250k
miles of driving I never had a problem with spark knock. I did try running
premium for multiple tank fulls in my 1997 Expedition but I could never
detect any difference in performance or fuel economy. At least as far as I
was concerned, running premium was just a way to give the oil companies
another $0.20 per gallon.

I have noticed that many of the Japanese companies are now specifying
premium fuel but allowing the use of regular fuel. I think this is done for
two reasons - 1) By making premium fuel the primary specified fuel they can
advertise the slightly higher HP numbers achieved when using premium fuel
and 2) by specifying premium fuel in the manuals, the EPA will use premium
fuel when conducting the emission and fuel mileage tests. When using premium
fuel the cars get slightly better fuel economy. This is good for the CAFE
game but not really detectable in real world driving. I have seen it claimed
that for engines that have knock sensors, using premium will increase fuel
economy by 3% to 5%. I don't think must people keep careful enough records
to detect a .6 to 1.2 mpg increase. Companies that follow this strategy
(specifying premium fuel for mundane cars) are doing a disservice to many of
their Customers. The slight fuel economy improvements associated with the
use of premium fuel will not offset the much higher cost of  premium fuel. I
doubt if the typical Camry driver can detect the difference in performance.
I doubt an "expert" could detect the difference without a dyno or a
stopwatch. So in the end, by specifying premium fuel Toyota, is screwing the
little blue haired little old ladies who are the primary Camry buyers. I
suppose if economy was the primary goal, they wouldn't be driving a Camry
(and for sure not a 3.5L Camry).

Ed
News Skimmer - 27 Jan 2007 01:33 GMT
Mr White...that was a very good write-up.

You should contribute more often....time permitting.

skimmer

>>> Or used better gas. Lower octane fuel cause valves to vibrate in seats
>>> when it knocks even below a audible level. This leads to erosion and
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> Ed
News Skimmer - 27 Jan 2007 01:35 GMT
>>Or got a lawyer.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

Snoman. I use(d) the best gas I can buy at the local supply station. How
much better can it get...and where can I buy it?

skimmer
Jeff - 27 Jan 2007 19:34 GMT
>>Or got a lawyer.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> -----------------
> TheSnoMan.com

Sounds like you need a lawyer to sell it to the judge.

Jeff
Old Man - 26 Jan 2007 05:24 GMT
>>It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
>>supporter of queers.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I would rather give my business to Ford because they treat all people as
> human.

Even if they're not.

> Jeff
Ford Tech - 26 Jan 2007 05:51 GMT
>>>It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
>>>supporter of queers.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Even if they're not.

That is YOUR opinion, please dont spread that homophobic crap on the rest of
us. I tell ya, you are about as smart and worthless as the KKK. I am as
straight as they come, but I have known both Homosexual men and women, and
they are the same as you and I, only difference is their sexual preference..
So stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

>> Jeff
Duane Totty - 26 Jan 2007 15:59 GMT
Ya'll are worring about the least thing just like our Governement!  You need
to ask yourselves. Why after Ford has posted a $12.7B dollar loss why are
they still going to give Bonus and Compensation package to the upper
Management as they're taking from the Workers I don't care which way you
look at it the workers are the ones putting the Vehicle together, I would
love to see Mr. Bill Ford come on down lets strap that fender to the side of
that new Ford Shelby GT 500 with out scratching it. This is what ya'll need
to be worried about asking why were loosing our Benifits as they keep
theirs. ask yourselves why our pay has not gone up as fast as theirs. Ask
yourselve how a company can file Bankrupcy an turn around and give their new
CEO a $9M sign on bonus.

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1961 Sunbeam Alpine
1968 Ford F-100 Truck
1989 5.0 Mustang LX
1997 Ford F-150 Truck
2003 Ford F-250 Crew 4X4

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>>>>It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
>>>>supporter of queers.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
>>> Jeff
who - 26 Jan 2007 18:14 GMT
> Ya'll are worring about the least thing just like our Governement!  You need
> to ask yourselves. Why after Ford has posted a $12.7B dollar loss why are
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> yourselve how a company can file Bankrupcy an turn around and give their new
> CEO a $9M sign on bonus.
They need to get and keep people who may be able to help them.
Obviously they don't feel those they are letting go will be needed.
C. E. White - 26 Jan 2007 20:42 GMT
> Ya'll are worring about the least thing just like our Governement!  You
> need to ask yourselves. Why after Ford has posted a $12.7B dollar loss why
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> yourselve how a company can file Bankrupcy an turn around and give their
> new CEO a $9M sign on bonus.

I agree that executive pay in this country has gotten out of hand. but so
has the salaries paid to entertainers, pro athletes, and some politicians.
It was my understanding that Bill Ford was not taking a salary. I think in
the end he realized that he was not smart enough to correct Ford's problems.
When looking for the guy to turn things around he had only a few choices -
promote one of the exiting upper management team - possible, but given the
current problems, it seem like this would not inspire outside investors, 2)
reach down into the ranks and pick some bright young guy - again this is not
going to inspire investors, 3) hire a "super star" from outside the company.
Obviously Ford decided to try  #3. Having lived through my employer doing
this, I can tell you it has risks. At least in Ford's case they hired
someone that has some experience with manufacturing and unions and was
successful in turning around a major corporation. I feel certain that this
will work out better than hiring a loud mouthed self promoting cookie
salesman. However, when you decide to go with the "super star" strategy, you
are going to have to pay through the nose. If he is successful, then a $9M
signing bonus will seem like a bargain. If not, will it really matter that
Ford wasted $9M? And, at least so far Ford has not declared bankruptcy. I
doubt they will unless they are about to shut the doors. If Ford declares
bankruptcy, the Ford family will likely loose it's control of the company.

Ed
samstone@aol.com - 26 Jan 2007 20:57 GMT
>will work out better than hiring a loud mouthed self promoting cookie
>salesman.
with mising digits and hired on April Fools day?
C. E. White - 26 Jan 2007 21:02 GMT
>>will work out better than hiring a loud mouthed self promoting cookie
>>salesman.
> with mising digits and hired on April Fools day?

LOL. I do have a new appreciation of how history doesn't match reality. Too
bad nobody will buy my book.

Ed
Jeff - 27 Jan 2007 19:07 GMT
<...>

> I agree that executive pay in this country has gotten out of hand. but so
> has the salaries paid to entertainers, pro athletes, and some politicians.
> It was my understanding that Bill Ford was not taking a salary. I think in
> the end he realized that he was not smart enough to correct Ford's
> problems.

I would not say that he was not smart enough. I would say that he did not
have skills or talents or background that was needed. He was smart enough to
get out of the way, which is saying something.

And sometimes having someone come in from the outside can make all the
difference, even if someone from the inside would do the exact same things.

Jeff

<...>
Jeff - 27 Jan 2007 19:04 GMT
> Ya'll are worring about the least thing just like our Governement!  You
> need to ask yourselves. Why after Ford has posted a $12.7B dollar loss why
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> yourselve how a company can file Bankrupcy an turn around and give their
> new CEO a $9M sign on bonus.

What is the alternative? Do you think the new CEO would have considered Ford
for a mere $250,000 per year? There are not that many CEOs who can run a
major company. And some of the ones who can are running into problems with
changing the dates on stock options. The reason why they are giving bonuses
and raises is that the upper management will leave for greener pastures. To
me, it seems that no one should get more than say 20 or 100 times what the
lowest-paid person in a company gets. So if a janitor gets $30k, then the
most someone should get is $600k to $3000k But the US corporate culture
doesn't allow that.

So the alternative is big pay for a few people or fewer people in upper
management.

Jeff

>>>>>It might have something to do with the boycott. Ford is a faggot loving
>>>>>supporter of queers.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>>
>>>> Jeff
 
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