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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / February 2007honda odometers
http://www.poynerbaxter.com/Honda%20odometer.htm Now how bout that for honda's "high" quality control process. I expect this from the big three. Honda has really let me down :P One site said the SAE Standards are between -1 and +4%. Is this really true? I wouldn't want to be the guy driving 60 in a 50 and really be going 4% faster... What are the SAE standards on odometers. My POS Ranger is out 5%, has been since new... Spring time this ranger is getting the boot, what with its 3.0L 5spd and 13MPG and all. Not sure what kind of brain wave i had when i acquired this thing. > http://www.poynerbaxter.com/Honda%20odometer.htm > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > with its 3.0L 5spd and 13MPG and all. Not sure what kind of brain wave > i had when i acquired this thing. Hm Didn't you know, all speedometers are inaccurate. Its noy Honda's fault not Fords not anyones. The tolerance is usually 10 % either 10 percent down or 10 percent up on real speed . Its to do with tyres, mechanical limitations etc. So when you get booked, you don't really know what speed you're doing, and neither do the speed camera people as they are not tested to national standards, although the law enforcement agencies will swear black and blue they do and its your problem, as they hand you the fine. . > Hm Didn't you know, all speedometers are inaccurate. Its noy Honda's > fault not Fords not anyones. > The tolerance is usually 10 % either 10 percent down or 10 percent > up on real speed . Its to do with tyres, mechanical limitations etc. Even when speedometer were mechanical, they did better than 10% accuracy, as long as the vehicle was relatively new and the tires were the correct size. The only vehicle I drove with a speedometer off by more than 3% was an old F100 farm truck with greatly oversize rear tires. At an indicated 55, you were doing 60 (a 9% error). With mechanical speedometers you could fix this by changing the drive gear (usually there were a number of gears available). Years ago in NC, the courts would usually let you off a speeding ticket if you could produce a calibration statement from a speedometer shop that showed you speedometer was enough to cause you to speed. They eventually closed this loophole because it was being abused. I had one college roommate who spent a couple of days changing his speedometer gears to get one that made his ticket go away. He went back to the same speedometer shop each time he changed gears. They knew exactly what he was doing, but didn't care. > So when you get booked, you don't really know what speed you're > doing, and neither do the speed camera people as they are not tested > to national standards, although the law enforcement agencies will > swear black and blue they do and its your problem, as they hand you > the fine. The chances of the radar being off by more than 1% are slim to none. It is possible that they clocked the wrong "thing," but whatever they clocked was probably going the speed they reported. Ed > . >> Hm Didn't you know, all speedometers are inaccurate. Its noy Honda's [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Ed Yes probably but we are talking about LEGAL measurement. Under certain circunstances RADAR or LASER are not and that is the rpoblem. They CAN be set up to produce speeds read in excess by greedy corporations. They wouldnt do that would they? YES they do. Problem is how do motorists prove them wrong or faulty? So NO governemnt accuracy department want to have anything to do with testing these. So private companies do. Not exactly legal but accepted by most judges anyway. >> http://www.poynerbaxter.com/Honda%20odometer.htm >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > standards, although the law enforcement agencies will swear black and blue > they do and its your problem, as they hand you the fine. Actually, it is your problem. On highways and local streets, law enforcement often sets up radar to tell you your speed. You should be able to compare your speed to the speed on the display, and see how your speedometer agrees. You can also take your car to places to be calibrated. If you're going at the posted limit on an interstate highway, and people aren't passing your right and left, you're speedometer is off. Jeff >>> http://www.poynerbaxter.com/Honda%20odometer.htm >>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Jeff No one can test you speedometer legally. All they can do is say they comply with the manufacturers specifications. Wear on tyres, larger tyres smaller tyres wrong gearbox or diff gummed up speedo all create a situations whereby things are not what they seem. Note I said legally. In court close enough is not legal evidence. It must be legally accurate. RADAR can be set up to deceive and quite often its done to get a qouta of bookings so the operator can go home. <...> > No one can test you speedometer legally. Wrong. There are places that do calibrate speedometers. In fact, police cars have to have their speedometers calibrated. > All they can do is say they comply with the manufacturers specifications. > Wear on tyres, larger tyres smaller tyres wrong gearbox or diff gummed up > speedo all create a situations whereby things are not what they seem. Which is why the Pennsylvania law is written to provide for some error before cops can ticket you. > Note I said legally. In court close enough is not legal evidence. It must > be legally accurate. Please tell us what "legally accurate" is. > RADAR can be set up to deceive and quite often its done to get a qouta of > bookings so the operator can go home. Here is a list of things cannot be set up to decieve: <begin list> </end list> A very short list, indeed. If the police want to get you, they will get you. Jeff > <...> > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > <begin list> Wrong Radar can be set up at the wrong angle Can be interfered with by other transmissions The band is not guaranteed to be free of interference Transmitters of all kinds can interfere with the low level of signal employed by RADAR Reflections from 1) other cars 2)signs 3) Bigger vehicles 4) closer vehicles 5) multiple path reflections 6) Rain and wet vegetation giving incorrect readings. 8) Power lines running in line creating interference. The person using the camera may or may not even be aware of these. Also the RADAR gun can be set to retain speed readings, leading to multiple bookings to be made at same time. Trust them? Not likely. Would you trust them with your wife? No one would. > </end list> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jeff Wrong No one is certified to the scientific legal standards. >> <...> >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> <begin list> > Wrong Radar can be set up at the wrong angle You need to read careful. I said, "Here is a list of things [that] cannot [emphasis, canNOT] be setup up to decieve." Yeah, anything can be set up to decieve. > Can be interfered with by other transmissions > The band is not guaranteed to be free of interference [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > multiple bookings to be made at same time. > Trust them? Not likely. Would you trust them with your wife? No one would. Yeah, I do all the time. Her father is a retired cop; her sister is one, too. <End list> >> A very short list, indeed. You made this up didnt you!!! >> >> If the police want to get you, they will get you. >> >> Jeff > Wrong No one is certified to the scientific legal standards. >>> <...> >>> [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] >>> Jeff >> Wrong No one is certified to the scientific legal standards. There your answer then. Youre slightly prejudiced, as I am having defended and dealt with a few speeding charges. Dont get it wrong. Technical devices cannot be trusted all the time. They are subject to many faults as we humans have. Unfortunately technical devices are hard to argue with. So are Policeman who swear by technical aids. Simply put, guns jam, cars breakdown, electronic devices do also. The problem I have with them is when an innocent person does get booked he has very little he can use to defend himself. In a electronic age we need to make sure "BIG Brother" is up to the job. >>>>> No one can test you speedometer legally. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > has very little he can use to defend himself. In a electronic age we need > to make sure "BIG Brother" is up to the job. Radar works by measuring the rate of the returned signal and comparing it to the transmitted signal. Just as you can hear the doppler effect with a train whistle, the radar unit does the same thing with the micowave signal. Unfortunately, it is indiscriminate, it measures the largest return signal it receives. If you have two vehicles traveling in the same direction and the second vehicle reflects more of the signal then it will be the second vehicle's speed which will be measured. There are several factors which must be taken into consideration when challenging a radar ticket: 1) Operator training; 2) Calibration of the radar gun; 3) Site selection/presence of other vehicles, or devices which emit a signal in the microwave band. Rain, fog, vegetation such as trees and bushes whose leaves contain water will increase the "clutter" that interferes with the signal. ***I was repairing/calibrating radar systems long before anyone ever built a unit that could be hand held, when the "computers" (such as they were) were tubes, gears and resistors. (AN/MPQ4-A Anti-Battery, Anti-Mortar and AN/TPS-25 Ground Surveillance Radars.) >>>>>> No one can test you speedometer legally. >>>>> Wrong. There are places that do calibrate speedometers. In fact, [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > were tubes, gears and resistors. (AN/MPQ4-A Anti-Battery, Anti-Mortar and > AN/TPS-25 Ground Surveillance Radars.) I love you then. It backs up what I have learnt doing this sort of stuff. You wouldnt be available as an expert witness would you? >>>>>>> No one can test you speedometer legally. >>>>>> Wrong. There are places that do calibrate speedometers. In fact, [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > I love you then. It backs up what I have learnt doing this sort of stuff. > You wouldnt be available as an expert witness would you? LOL, unfortunately, while I have a decent track record in court and various quasi-legal areas of bureaucratic matters for myself, and friends and family, I'm afraid that I would not be your best choice in this case. There are better expert witnesses available. I have not kept current with the technology since my forced retirement from the Army just as the new digital systems were being introduced. I have read of radar-ticket cases being successfully challenged and if your need is great enough (IOW, if the penalties faced justify the cost of defense) you should be able to find someone qualified without too much trouble. Not that I advocate trying to get out of a justly deserved ticket, mind you ;-). I got busted once, at somewhere around 40 over the posted limit. I came around a bend, climbing up into the mountains on a crisp, clear autumn afternoon with no other vehicles in sight and there he was, above in the median. I just pulled over and waited after I went by him. He pulled up behind me about two minutes later. I handed him my lic. & reg. and he said "Do you know how fast you were going?" I looked him in the eye and said "Yep." That was the entire conversation. When he came back with the ticket I saw that he had written it for only half of what he could have. I just paid it and figured I got off easy. >>>>>>>> No one can test you speedometer legally. >>>>>>> Wrong. There are places that do calibrate speedometers. In fact, [quoted text clipped - 106 lines] > that he had written it for only half of what he could have. I just paid it > and figured I got off easy. It just that a class action to get them to do it right, to get public servants and the corporations of their conceited a.s. The manufacturers cannot comply with ASA (motoring standards)standards. There are NO speedometer calibrations experts who can test them legally, including the ones the Police use. I have the evidence. >>> <...> >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >>> >>> Please tell us what "legally accurate" is. Legally accurate. This means that the measurement is accepted as scientific evidence by the standards as prescribed by scientific bodies. This "should" be the only evidence accepted by the courts, but has been ignored and tended to be ignored by the police force, and the courts because of lack of technical knowledge and deceit by corporations all over the world. Dont forget, where their equipment is being used, they usually (not always) get a cut. They also "test" their own equipment in cases and it may be that due to lessening income due to drivers complying after being stung by huge fines they "fix" them to read higher than the actual speed. They wouldnt do that? I know of a lot of fraud involving corporations. You only have to read the Newspapers. See this >> From Federal MP Dennis Jensens maiden speech in Western Australia. http://www.dennisjensen.com.au/aboutdrjensen/maidenspeech.asp Extract. On the subject of raising revenue, state governments have become so greedy that they blithely ignore simple fairness in enforcing speed limits that are quite often not set on a scientific basis but established from simple guesswork or, worse, with a view to maximising revenue from speed enforcement. Speedometer accuracy is legislated to be within 10 per cent by Australian design regulation 18, yet in many cases this is ignored in the threshold that is used to enforce speed limits. Picture hiring a car at an airport, obeying the speed limit according to the ADR-compliant speedometer but then getting a speeding ticket due to overzealous enforcement. As if this were not bad enough, speed-measuring devices in many states have scientifically unsupportable tolerances applied, blatantly ignoring Australian standards. In many cases, they are supported by suppliers, such as Multanova, who are either totally technically inept or simply not beyond using lies to support the illegitimate tolerances to ingratiate themselves with the authorities to ensure repeat business. This highlights the need to generate legally enforceable national standards. We do not need police standing adversely affected and undermined by opportunistic traffic enforcement policies. Ensuring fair enforcement thresholds that allow for speedometer errors can be achieved by an amendment to the National Measurement Act. Scientifically justifiable speed-reading device tolerances could be enforced by ensuring that Australia standards have the full backing of legislation. Currently they do not, and the states are thumbing their noses at these standards. Here is his website. I believe he is an honest politician, which is rare. http://www.dennisjensen.com.au/aboutdrjensen/maidenspeech.asp > http://www.poynerbaxter.com/Honda%20odometer.htm > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > its 3.0L 5spd and 13MPG and all. Not sure what kind of brain wave i had > when i acquired this thing. Only 13 mpg with that little motor and a 5-speed? Shoot, my Lincolns ('91 & '92) get 24-26 mpg with the 3.8L motors and auto trans. 13 mpg is almost as bad as my big Dodge Ram with the 318 V-8 and auto trans. You sure that thing is running right? >> http://www.poynerbaxter.com/Honda%20odometer.htm >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > You sure that thing is running right? Oh trust me. I've been over this again and again. Buddy of mine has a 93 4.0L and gets 20mpg, and another friend of mine has a 3.0L 5speed ('06) and gets 15-16... so i don't think i'm too far off in an 02 w/ 120 on it. my crown vic gets 21mpg my 99 f150 4.6 ext cab auto got 17-18 > http://www.poynerbaxter.com/Honda%20odometer.htm > > Now how bout that for honda's "high" quality control process. > > I expect this from the big three. Honda has really let me down :P This is silly lawsuit. Who doesn't know odometers aren't 100% accurate? Maybe if an engine blew up at an indicated 36,800 miles and Honda refused to repair it, there would be a claim. My experience with Honda is that they do a very good job of honoring the spirit of their warranty and not just the letter. If you are leasing the vehicle, and the odometer accuracy bothers you, have it checked before you sign on the dotted line and have the accuracy figured into the deal. I have always checked my cars odometers. Generally all the Fords I have owned have been 1% to 3% "slow," i.e. show a few less miles than actually traveled. The Toyota I owned was the other way, it showed about 3% more miles on the odometer than I actually traveled. My last GM car (a Vue) was about 1% fast. My Nissan's speedometer is about 3% optimistic (Indicated 70 is really 68) and the odometer is almost dead on (about 1 % slow - indicated 10 miles is really 9.9). I have never had a car off by more than 3% as long as the OE tires were installed. > One site said the SAE Standards are between -1 and +4%. Is this > really true? I wouldn't want to be the guy driving 60 in a 50 and > really be going 4% faster... +4% would indicate that you are going 57.6 mph when the speedometer indicated 60 mph. -1% would mean you were doing 60.6 at an indicated 60. No speedometer is perfect, so if you are trying to just avoid a ticket, give yourself a little margin. Given the variation in tires, you are never going to get perfect results. I have read that in Germany, by law, speedometers have to be optimistic (show a higher speed than actual). THis makes sense to me. > What are the SAE standards on odometers. My POS Ranger is out 5%, > has been since new... Spring time this ranger is getting the boot, > what with its 3.0L 5spd and 13MPG and all. Not sure what kind of > brain wave i had when i acquired this thing. We owned a bunch of Rangers (83, 86, 89, 92, 99) and none have been off my than 3% and in every case the odometer indicated fewer miles than actually traveled. Do you have the OE size tires installed? Either your Ranger is messed up, or you drive like a wild man. Our '92 Ranger was a 3.0L Automatic (2WD) and averaged around 20 in normal day to day use (it is a farm vehicle and wasn't driven on the highway, but the regular driving wasn't stop and go either). The '99 is a 4L Automatic 4WD and gets the worst mileage of any Ranger we have owned, but is still a lot better than 13 (around 18). Ed In Pennsylvania, cops can't give you a ticket unless you are going more than 68 mph or more than 5 mph over the limit in a zone with a speed limit less than 65 mph. Jeff Close but no cigar. In PA for one being timed with radar, use only by the PSP, the speed must be more than 6 MPH over any posted speed limit. For ALL other timing devices, like VASCAR used by city and other local departments, the speed must be more than 10 MPH over the posted speed, but only 6 MPH more than the posted speed limit if it is 55 MPH or more. The exception is school zones, posted at 15 MPH, then there in no leeway. In reality police in PA do not issue citations unless one is clocked at more than 10 MPH over the posted limit and none of them use the vehicles speedometer. A little know fact about PA, that as far as I know is not true in any other state. Painted road markings, in and by themselves, are NOT legal traffic control devices. I E One can pass on a double yellow line, if there are no signs denoting passing is prohibited, provided one can do so safely. Another is, it is not legal to DRIVE in the left lane in PA, except when overtaking another vehicle. The fine, with costs, is $136 ;) Source; Pa Title #75, Motor Vehicle Code. SEC 3300 mike > In Pennsylvania, cops can't give you a ticket unless you are going more > than 68 mph or more than 5 mph over the limit in a zone with a speed limit > less than 65 mph. > > Jeff Thanks for providing this for us and correcting me. Less than 55 mph, it 10 mph over, 55+, it's 6 mph. One additional point: there is also no leeway in active construction zones. Jeff > http://www.poynerbaxter.com/Honda%20odometer.htm > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > its 3.0L 5spd and 13MPG and all. Not sure what kind of brain wave i had > when i acquired this thing. Ford has a 2% margin on the low side on their speedometers. There is no "Industry Standard".. Its what the automakers build into their vehicles.... The reason is for changes in tire size as they wear, and other factors as well.. Ford Tech > Ford has a 2% margin on the low side on their speedometers. There is no > "Industry Standard".. Its what the automakers build into their vehicles.... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ford Tech The Ford factory manual I have for the 94' Escort/Tracer says the "speedometer indication is biased high", so the indicated speed is equal to or higher than the actual speed. They say this is to "protect the consumer against violating speed laws". The speedometer on my 94' Escort read about four percent high with the tires that came on the car. When I replaced the tires with the next larger size, the speedometer/odometer was very accurate. It was off by only a tenth of a mile in forty miles. >> Ford has a 2% margin on the low side on their speedometers. There is >> no "Industry Standard".. Its what the automakers build into their [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > replaced the tires with the next larger size, the speedometer/odometer > was very accurate. It was off by only a tenth of a mile in forty miles. Oh boy Are you in for a surprise one day. There are specifications for vehicles. The "best" they can do is 10% up or down. But if you wish to legislate for these technical devices to do better you can, but they still cannot comply. I know. I've checked all the specifications. I Australia we have a claytons standard. On page one, the give you all the specs., and on the nxt page they give the specs an exemption. According to local state laws. Who are you going to believe, the people who manufacture the cars, the people who gather taxes by deceiving people or the speed camera manufacturers who also amke money out of these things? Before you know it they will lower the speed tolerances and you will pay through the nose for minor infringements like we have in Victoria Australia. 5% And the punishment doesnt even fit the crime. >>> Ford has a 2% margin on the low side on their speedometers. There is >>> no "Industry Standard".. Its what the automakers build into their [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > nose for minor infringements like we have in Victoria Australia. 5% > And the punishment doesnt even fit the crime. Who is in for a surprise one day? > Spring time this ranger is getting the boot, what with its 3.0L 5spd and > 13MPG and all. Not sure what kind of brain wave i had when i acquired > this thing. Dont know your driving style, but I dont sit at stoplights myself and I STILL get abour 15-16mpg city with my 2000 Ranger 3.0L FFV 5spd trans and 4.10 rearend.. I have 245/75R16 FACTORY sized tires on my truck... Also a factory 2" suspension lift (TRAILHEAD package)... I get about 19-21mpg on the highway, 17 when pullin a 5x8 u-haul trailer... Ford Tech 2000 Ford Ranger 3.0L FFV 5spd Mazda Trans 4.10 rear and pushin 113,000mi. > My POS Ranger is out 5%, has > been since new... Spring time this ranger is getting the boot, what > with its 3.0L 5spd and 13MPG and all. Not sure what kind of brain wave > i had when i acquired this thing. I'd quietly dump that gas eating thing. My 3.3L Concorde is much better than that, over 20MPG. |
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