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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / March 2007Information Gleaned from Domestic Content Labels
I am curious about the domestic content of various cars, so I stopped by a couple of car dealers last night to check out the domestic content labels. In 35 years of car buying, I never recall seeing one. But, sure enough, they were on most cars and light trucks on the lots. I wonder where they go when I test drive a car? Apparently they are not required on heavy duty trucks (like an F250). The labels list the percentage of domestic content for a "Car Line" not for the particular car you are looking at. And it is not even for the cars from a particular plant. It is domestic content of the theoretical volume weighted average member of a "Car Line." This means that no matter what Camry you look at, no matter where it was actually built, the domestic content label is going to show the same percentage of domestic content. This is why Camrys built in Japan are still labeled as having 80% domestic content. The particular Camry built in Japan might have 0% domestic content, but when all Camrys (and Solaras) sold in the US are averaged together, the average domestic content is 80%. Likewise, Ford Mustangs all are claimed to have a 70% domestic content whether they are a V-6 manual, or a V-8 automatic. Clearly a V-6 Automatic Mustang, which has a German engine and a French transmission, has a much lower domestic content than a V-8 Automatic Mustang, which has US built engines and transmissions. Still they both have the same domestic content percentage shown on the label. The labels do show the country of origin for engines and transmissions and the country of assembly. I have no idea how they account for changes in demand for different version or when Toyota imports additional Camrys to meet higher than expected demand. I suppose the labels are based on projected volumes. I do not know if they are updated if reality doesn't conform to the projections. I think calling items produced in the US or Canada as "domestic" is not sensible since NAFTA was implemented. Why is Mexico treated differently than Canada? Aren't we all one big happy free trade area? I also think it is not clear how a particular component is counted as "domestic." To be counted as a "domestic fender" does the steel have to come from the US or Canada or merely be stamped out in the US or Canada? Does an electronic component have to have components sourced in the US or Canada, or just have the final assembly done in the US or Canada? My opinion is that he Domestic Content Labels are not particularly useful, and that they may actually be misleading. They do not reflect the domestic content of the actual car you are looking at, but rather they are the average domestic content for cars in that particular car line. Regardless of their usefulness, here is what the labels claim for various car lines: Toyota 4Runner - 0% Toyota Siena - 80% Toyota Highlander - 5% Toyota Prius - 0% Toyota Matrix - 70% Toyota Corolla - 60% Toyota Tacoma - 65% Toyota Avalon - 75% Toyota Camry / Solara - 80% Scion xA, xB, xC - 0% Toyota Yaris - 0% Toyota Tundra (new version) - 75% Toyota RAV4 - 0% Ford Ranger - 80% Ford F150 - 90% Ford Mustang - 70% Ford Escape - 2007 - 80%, 2008 - 65% Ford Edge / Lincoln MXK - 95% Ford Five Hundred / Mercury Montego - 80% Ford Freestyle - 85% Ford Explorer / Mercury Mountaineer - 80% Ford Fusion / Mercury Milan / Lincoln MKZ - 50% Ford Crown Victoria / Mercury Grand Marquis / Lincoln Town Car - 90% One thing I found interesting was the sparce number of Ford Fusions on the lots at Ford dealers. I stopped at two Ford dealers and there was a total of 6 Fusions on the lots. I assume this means they are selling really well. Ed >I am curious about the domestic content of various cars, so I stopped by a >couple of car dealers last night to check out the domestic content labels. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > component have to have components sourced in the US or Canada, or just > have the final assembly done in the US or Canada? This is a result of the American Automotive Labeling Act (AALA), not NAFTA. NAFTA itself was an expansion of a law that was agreed upon with Canada (the agreement is technically not a treaty). The AALA also is known as the VIN first digit requirement act, and specifies that the first digit of the VIN reflect the US content of the vehicles, not just the US/Canadian content. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/regrev/Evaluate/809208.html This sort of answers the question about parts made in the US from foriegn material: http://www.ftc.gov/os/1997/12/epsmadeusa.htm It seems that if something is transformed in the US, then it counts as made in the US. I would think stamping steel into a bumper counts. I was yanking your chain about the VINs. Couldn't resist. The whole idea that the VIN represents content is a figment of someone's imagination. Unless he dreams in color, in which it is a pigment of his imagination. > My opinion is that he Domestic Content Labels are not particularly useful, > and that they may actually be misleading. They do not reflect the domestic [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Ed That's good. Ford needs to sell every car it can. > This is a result of the American Automotive Labeling Act (AALA), not > NAFTA. NAFTA itself was an expansion of a law that was agreed upon with [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/regrev/Evaluate/809208.html CONSUMERS' AWARENESS AND INFLUENCE BY THE AALA LABELS In a survey of 646 people who had bought or leased new vehicles during the past 6 months or were planning to do so within 3 months: * 23%* knew of the existence of the AALA label * 15%* said they had seen an AALA label * 7%* had read the label at a dealership * 5%* said they were influenced by the label to any degree whatsoever * 2%* were moderately or strongly influenced by the label because it identified the vehicle's country of assembly ! * nobody said they used the labels to comparison-shop among make-models according to their percentages of U.S./Canadian parts content I do. If I'm buying a Japanese car, I *WANT* a Japanese car!!!! One of the reasons I bought a Scion: Percentage of Domestic parts: 0% > I am curious about the domestic content of various cars, so I stopped by a > couple of car dealers last night to check out the domestic content labels. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > Ford F150 - 90% > Ford Mustang - 70% So what this says is the Camry car line has a higher percentage of 'domestic' parts than the Mustang?!?! Cool! And that also explains why a Camry with a "J" VIN had 75% Domestic content (in 2005) > Ford Escape - 2007 - 80%, 2008 - 65% > Ford Edge / Lincoln MXK - 95% [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ed > So what this says is the Camry car line has a higher percentage of > 'domestic' parts than the Mustang?!?! > Cool! I would guess that a Mustang GT Automatic probably has a domestic content closer to 85%, and the V-6 Automatic is probably less that 60%. But that is only a guess. > And that also explains why a Camry with a "J" VIN had 75% Domestic content > (in 2005) I imagine a "J" Camrys actually had a Domestic Content of 0%. The Domestic Content label has nothing to do with the domestic content of any particular Camry, just the theoretical average Camry sold in the US. This implies that US built 2005 Camrys must have had a Domestic Content of around 80% to offset the imported Camrys low domestic content. Ed <...> > And that also explains why a Camry with a "J" VIN had 75% Domestic content > (in 2005) Also, some parts probably came from the US. Toyota actually imports catalytic convertors into Japan. While cats are expensive, that probably doesn't explain the 75% figure, though. Jeff > <...> > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jeff Well, like CE said, the sticker covers the entire car line, not the car itself. That's why I was wondering why a Camry with a "J" VIN had the same content as one made in KY... > Well, like CE said, the sticker covers the entire car line, not the > car > itself. That's why I was wondering why a Camry with a "J" VIN had > the same > content as one made in KY... Well after looking at the domestic content labels, I have pretty much written them off as useless at best and at worst deliberately misleading. IF you actually cared about where the money was going for the car you are buying, the information presented is not nearly detailed enough. The Camry is a good example. If you were nationalistic and wanted to make sure your Camry had the highest possible US content, the labels don't tell you enough. The labels for all Camrys list exactly the same domestic content (however they do list the country of origin for the engine and transmission, and the final assembly location). With modern computers and inventory control, it would not be all that hard to print the actual domestic content on the window sticker for the car you are considering. However, based on the NHTSA link previously posted, it seems most Americans don't even know the labels exist, and even fewer actually care. And in some cases, I think the labels hurt the sale of "domestic" vehicles since some people apparently would refer their car to be assembled in Japan by Japanese workers. I guess they like the idea of being an economic colony of Japan. I guess I am lucky to have at least part of my income provided by providing raw materials / food. I am sure the Japanese will need to continue to import soybeans. Ed > The labels list the percentage of domestic content for a "Car Line" > not for the particular car you are looking at ======== Ed, you're absolutely right that content information on the Origins Sticker refers to the entire car *line*, not the individual car. I swung by the Toyota dealership early this morning, and noticed that the Origins Sticker is worded quite differently this year for the new '07 Camrys. The new wording leaves room for no ambiguity. Unlike last year's stickers, the new stickers now include the following phrase that clears up any confusion: "Parts Content information for vehicles in this *CARLINE*: U.S./Canada parts content: 75% The old stickers mentioned nothing about "Carline." So Hachi, regarding the J-Vin Camrys, you can be excused for thinking last year that [QUOTE]: "the bodies are assembled in the US minus the drive trains, and then put on one of the Marus and sent back to Japan for final assembly. The reason? Who knows? Perhaps Toyota has to manufacture a certain amount of autos in Japan to still be considered a Japanese auto maker (?). My only other guess is that they are sending parts to Japan and then assembling them there." [END QUOTE] Until the new Origins Stickers came out with the clear wording, we were all confused. But Hachi, buddy, you offered the wildest theories :-P >> The labels list the percentage of domestic content for a "Car Line" >> not for the particular car you are looking at [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > wording, we were all confused. But Hachi, buddy, you offered the > wildest theories :-P What the Hell?!?! You archiving my posts for future reference?!?!? ;) The stickers now say "For this car line" They didn't then, so I just made a wild guess. Hey, I was wrong before. And, you snipped the part where I said it was speculation!!! Once... Hachiroku HaTiRoKu wrote: > What the Hell?!?! You archiving my posts for future reference?!?!? ;) ======== Of course I do. Where would my Camry be without the Meguiar's Number-26 you recommended? > Hachiroku HaTiRoKu wrote: >> What the Hell?!?! You archiving my posts for future reference?!?!? ;) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Number-26 > you recommended? LOL! Well, that's a good thing! Glad to see I have some purpose in life. > I think the labels hurt the sale of "domestic" vehicles since > some people apparently would refer their car to be assembled in Japan > by Japanese workers. I guess they like the idea of being an economic > colony of Japan. Doesn't bother me a whole lot. Hate to say it, but the Japanese made cars are made better... Tell that to Honda, who had to buy back our Odessey a few years ago under my state's lemon law.... > Doesn't bother me a whole lot. Hate to say it, but the Japanese made cars > are made better... > > I think the labels hurt the sale of "domestic" vehicles since > > some people apparently would refer their car to be assembled in Japan [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Doesn't bother me a whole lot. Hate to say it, but the Japanese made cars > are made better... Are they really? How so? Which years? Thanks, Michael >I am curious about the domestic content of various cars, so I stopped by a >couple of car dealers last night to check out the domestic content labels. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > content, but when all Camrys (and Solaras) sold in the US are averaged > together, the average domestic content is 80%. Since about 20% of Camrys are still built in Japan, this implies the existence of Camrys that are 100% American. So, if I want an American car, I should run down to my Toyota dealer and simply pick one that was assembled here. Thanks for the tip. [snip] > My opinion is that he Domestic Content Labels are not particularly useful, > and that they may actually be misleading. They do not reflect the domestic > content of the actual car you are looking at, but rather they are the > average domestic content for cars in that particular car line. Regardless > of their usefulness, here is what the labels claim for various car lines: To put a label on the car that says, "the domestic content of THIS car is XX%" would require additional work that some car companies probably don't want to do. Wouldn't surprise me if their lobbyists worked against such a requirement. > Toyota 4Runner - 0% > Toyota Siena - 80% [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Ford Explorer / Mercury Mountaineer - 80% > Ford Fusion / Mercury Milan / Lincoln MKZ - 50% Are ALL of those assembled in Mexico or is there a US factory, too? The Hermosillo plant is profiled in the "Bold Moves" video on the Fusion but whether or not there's also a US plant is unclear. > Ford Crown Victoria / Mercury Grand Marquis / Lincoln Town Car - 90% > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ed Now, if the run of the mill Camry is 80% domestic and most are also assembled here, is that car more or less "American" than a Fusion built of 50% non-US parts that is then assembled in Mexico?  SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > "C. E. White" <cewhite@mindspring.com> wrote in message > Since about 20% of Camrys are still built in Japan, this implies the > existence of Camrys that are 100% American. In February, around 23% of the Camrys sold in the US were imported. This implies to me that the US assembled Camrys must be close to 100% domestic content (US + Canada) and that imported Camry must have >5% domestic content as well, or the labels are just wrong. > So, if I want an American car, I should run down to my Toyota dealer > and simply pick one that was assembled here. Seems that way, as long as you are buying a Camry. > Thanks for the tip. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > probably don't want to do. Wouldn't surprise me if their lobbyists > worked against such a requirement. With the sort of inventory control that modern manufacturers are using, I suspect it could be calculated easily and added to the standard window sticker with minimal effort. But given the way "domestic content" is defined, I am not sure it would be meaningful. .... >> Ford Fusion / Mercury Milan / Lincoln MKZ - 50% > > Are ALL of those assembled in Mexico or is there a US factory, too? > The Hermosillo plant is profiled in the "Bold Moves" video on the > Fusion but whether or not there's also a US plant is unclear. There is no US factory at this time. It seems that the Fusions are selling well, so maybe Ford will have to reconsider having them all built in Mexico. >> Ford Crown Victoria / Mercury Grand Marquis / Lincoln Town Car - >> 90% [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > assembled here, is that car more or less "American" than a Fusion > built of 50% non-US parts that is then assembled in Mexico? I'd say that the Camry has many more hours of "US American" labor per car than the Fusion. As to where the money eventually goes, I have no idea. I do think it is inherently unfair to treat Mexico different than Canada. If a Fusion was built in Canada by Canadian workers, the domestic content would probably be over 90%. Ed The NAP content label is indeed misleading and you are correct, it applies to the vehicle line. If a manufacture buys steel in the US and stamps parts in the US from that steel, it counts as US content as well as NAP. If the steel is imported and the stamping is done in Canada, or the US, it counts as NAP but those parts are NOT US content for the VIN designation of the number '1,' by the US Department of Commerce The stamped part, or the steel, or the component parts, of any part that is ONLY finally assembled in the US or Canada from imported components it counted on the NAP label but does NOT count as US content. If the US content of base materials, steel, plastics, rubber, glass, engineering , R&D, etc., fall below 70% the VIN assigned is a '4,' if it falls below 40% the VIN assigned is a '5' For example the Accord get a '1' and the Camry a '4.' Ford is going to have to start building the Fusion in a second plant. The Hermosa plant does not have the build capacity.to meet the current growth in demand mike >I am curious about the domestic content of various cars, so I stopped by a >couple of car dealers last night to check out the domestic content labels. [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > Ed > The NAP content label is indeed misleading and you are correct, it applies > to the vehicle line. If a manufacture buys steel in the US and stamps > parts in the US from that steel, it counts as US content as well as NAP. > If the steel is imported and the stamping is done in Canada, or the US, it > counts as NAP but those parts are NOT US content for the VIN designation > of the number '1,' by the US Department of Commerce Evidence please. The VIN designation is required by the Deparment of Transportation, not the Department of Commerce. The Department of Transportation (through the National Traffic Highway Safety Administration) has contracted with the Society of Automotive Engineers to assign the WMI (the first three characters of the VIN). Here is a link to the US code that is involved: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_05/49cfr565_05.html > The stamped part, or the steel, or the component parts, of any part that > is ONLY finally assembled in the US or Canada from imported components it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > For example the Accord get a '1' and the Camry a '4.' Exactly. Honda was assigned a WMI (world manufactuer identifier) beginning with '1,' which indicates that it was made in the US, and Toyota begins with a '4', which indicates it was made in the US. The first digit of the VIN indicates nothing else. If I am incorrect, you can prove it by posting the URL that demonstrates this. > Ford is going to have to start building the Fusion in a second plant. The > Hermosa plant does not have the build capacity.to meet the current growth > in demand Excellent. Hopefully this will help Ford come out of their financial mess. I hope they can figure out how to build good cars that people want. Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] >> >> Ed You are free to believe whatever you choose but as one might expect you are incorrect, not all Hondas assembled in the US have a '1.' Not all Toyotas have a '4' Does it not make you curious as to why Toyota would be assigned a '4' and '5,' as a world manufacturer as you want to believe, and Nissan who began assembly in the US long after Toyota would gets a '1?' Don't you find it strange, following your logic that ALL of the '1s' would be assigned before they 'ran out' of '1s' as you believe, before they would issue 4 and 5? I told you a dozen times were to search. I could not care less whether you do so, or not mike >> For example the Accord get a '1' and the Camry a '4.' > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The first digit of the VIN indicates nothing else. > You are free to believe whatever you choose but as one might expect you > are incorrect, not all Hondas assembled in the US have a '1.' Not all [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > mike What I find curious is that you have provied no verifiable evidence that anything you say is correct. Why does Ford make nearly identical vehicles on the same assembly line, but if they are Fords, they get a '1', if the brand begins with an M, they get a 4, and if it begins with L, they get a '5'? They are nearly identical vehicles. Why is that each type of vehicle sold as a particular brand gets only one WMI (the first three digits of the VIN)? Would there have to be two or three, for at least some (I mean to account for different models that have different content)? You're right. I am free to believe what I want. And I believe that you have no clue what you are talking about. Why don't you show us that I am making an a.s out of myself by posting the URL that shows that the first digit of the VIN reflects US content? Jeff > [Mike,] what I find curious is that you have provied no verifiable > evidence that anything you say is correct. ========== Believe it or not, if I had to put my chips down on this "1, 4, 5" debate, I would wager on Mike Hunter. Never underestimate a smart Black Jew like the great Mike Hunter :-) Or you could end up experiencing, as the great African-American author James Baldwin once said, "the fire next time." Sure Mike may sometimes stumble on the percentage numbers (is it 65 % or 75 % ?) and sometimes he'll refer to Camry VINs as beginning with "5" instead of "4," but when it comes to the big picture, the overall argument, I would not underestimate Mike Hunt. Mr. Hunter is probably right regarding the mystical meanings of 1, 4, and 5. I just wish he would verify it for us with a citation from the Congressional Record, or even "TV Guide" :-) You know I love ya, Mike. Nobody here knows more about this automotive sourcing topic than you do :-) >> [Mike,] what I find curious is that you have provied no verifiable >> evidence that anything you say is correct. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > You know I love ya, Mike. Nobody here knows more about > this automotive sourcing topic than you do :-) Mike's wrong. Ford, Mercury, Mazda and Lincoln all makes trucks and SUVs on the same assembly lines. All the Fords have '1', all the Mazdas and Mercuries have a 4, and all the Lincolns have a 5. Originally, the US was assigned just '1's. Then they ran out. The VINs not only apply to cars and trucks, but they apply to all types of vehicles, like fire trucks, buses, ambulances, bulldozers, trailers, motorbikes and off-road vehicles (the off-road vehicles have their own VIN system now). The VINs are also for vehicles no longer in produciton, like Olds, Plymouth, Eagle, AMC, Divco, and a whole bunch of others that have gone out of business. Now, the first three digits of the VIN are called the WMI for world manufacturer indentifier. The first digit )identifies the country of origin. The second and the third digit have 31 possible values each (i, o, q, u, z are not used) for a total of 961 WMIs for that were assigned to the US. The US had some many vehicle makers, that they ran out of WMIs. Twice. http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-07-01-vin-shortage_x.htm That's why, I think, that Mercury and Mazda have VINs that begin with 4 for their trucks. When Ford went to get new WMIs for these vehicles, they got 4's. And when Ford went to WMIs for the Lincoln trucks and SUVs, they 5's. Mike's conjecture doesn't hold water. There is not one instance I know of where a manufacture uses two WMIs that are the same, except for the first digit. If, say, Ford made cars with parts that had engines made in Canada one year and Michigan the next, well, the content might go over the 70% market. Considering that Ford has an average content near 75%, you would expect some vehicles are made with less than 70% and some with more than 70% US content. But, there's not one vehicle that has a VIN with a 1, and then a similar vehicle with a VIN that's a 4 in a different year or coming from a different plant or a different model (like Focus and Fusion). The kicker is that there is absolutely no evidence that Mike has been able to find that suggests that the first digit of the VIN means anything other than the vehicle was built in the US. There is nothing about it in the US Code. And there is nothing about it on the National Highway Safety Traffic Administration website (NHSTA responsible for VINs; SAE is contract by them to do it for the US). Finally, if the VINs, which were started with the ISO in 80s or so, started with the US having three digits, don't you think they would be consequetive, like 1, 2, 3, rather than 1, 4, 5, like they would be if they were add-ons? Jeff Jeff, that's a *great* article in USA Today. Thanks very much for providing a link. Yeah, there's no doubt that unique VIN numbers are running out, but you know they'll run out even faster if there's a domestic parts content Rule tied to the use of 1, 4, and 5 for American-assembled cars. Why don't we ever see a Toyota VIN starting "1T" ? The only VINs I've ever seen for U.S.-assembled Toyotas either begin with 4T or 5T . 2T and 3T of course refer to cars assembled in Canada and Mexico. Searching the online inventory at PenskeToyota.com (the largest Toyota dealership in the U.S.) doesn't show a single 1T anywhere. Of course a lot of Corollas begin with a "1" but their second character is an "N," not a "T" ("N" for the joint GM-Toyota plant in California: NUMMI ). Where oh where is the 1T... That's one reason why I'm not discounting Mike. -- Built_Well scratching his head On Mar 15, 6:54 pm, "Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toy...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Jeff, that's a *great* article in USA Today. Thanks very much for > providing a link. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > -- Built_Well scratching his head Where are the "1" Lincoln or Mercury Trucks and SUVs? SAE assigns the WMIs. I assume Toyota has their own reasons for using them like they do. Just like Ford uses a "5" as the first digit for all Lincoln "trucks" or a "4" for Mercury "trucks." Ed If that were true, as you choose to believe, why does Toyota not have just a 4, rather than a 4 and 5. On the other hand Nissan, who started to assemble cars and trucks in the US of US parts rather than imported part many years after Toyota, have a '1' as the first number of the VIN on the Titan and Altima, and not a 4 or 5 ? ;) mike . Originally, the US was > assigned just '1's. Then they ran out. > Jeff > If that were true, as you choose to believe, why does Toyota not have just a > 4, rather than a 4 and 5. On the other hand Nissan, who started to assemble [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > mike I have no idea why Toyota has allocated the WMIs the way they have done it. Can you explain why does Ford uses 1, 4, and 5 in the first position of the VIN? Why does a Ford Explorer use a 1 as the first digit and a Mercury Mountaineer use a 4? Why does a Ford Expedition use a 1 as the first digit and a Lincoln Navigator use a 5? Why does a Ford Escape use a 1 as the first digit and a Mercury Marier use a 4? Why do all Mustangs have a 1 as the first digit, when V-6 Automatic Mustangs don't have enough domestic content to qualify as a domestic car? Why don't you provide one verifiable reference that confirms your speculation that the WMI is related to domestic content? Ed I notice you did not answer why Nissan has a '1' on their cars and trucks, yet came to the US long after Toyota, but want me to answer . Those Ford products that have and '4' and '5' do not have enough US content to warrant a '1' The interiors, grills, and many other lower volume parts are made in Canada, for the other versions of the Ford models, and do not count as US content. The problem is you are confusing the NAP label with US content. The Mustangs in total have enough US content to warrant a '1.' The R&D, engineering, steel, rubber, glass, plastics, electronic etc all originated in the US, for one. I've told you guys a dozen time to search the US Commerce Department for the information you seek. That is what I did I after I contacted some of the people I knew at my former employer and they did not even know. mike >> If that were true, as you choose to believe, why does Toyota not have >> just a [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Ed >I notice you did not answer why Nissan has a '1' on their cars and trucks, >yet came to the US long after Toyota, but want me to answer . Those Ford [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] >> >> Ed Because the SAE assigned Nissan a '1'. Why don't you ask them? If you search the SAE site, you can find the names of a few people who are responsible for the VIN numberings system. You said that parts made in Canada don't count as US content for the VIN system. How about proving this? What is the URL of the site that describes how the 1, 4, and 5 are assigned? How about evidence that is independent of the VIN system that demonstrates that Ford gets more parts all Mercury SUVs from Canada, and even more all Lincolns? Notice I said all. All Mercury SUVs get a '4' and all LIncoln SUVs and Trucks get a '5'. You said that R&D and engineer count. Were the Navigators engineered in Canada? How about the R&D? Was that different for the LIncolns than the Fords? I would think all the R&D was near Canada, just west of Detroit. But last I checked, Michigan was still part of the US. You said you contacted a few people you know from your old job, and they did not know. Aren't they the people who claim told you this nonsense in the beginning? Aren't they the people you said sent you the URL in the first place? So what you're saying is that you have absolutely no proof for this. And this system is mandated by someone (Commerce Depart?), yet there is no evidence of this on any newstory, any commerce department website, and no vehicle manufacturer. Yet, all the first digits of each vehicle type (car, truck, SUV, truck - chasis only, etc.) seems to be set for each make? I mean, I haven't seen any Fords that begin 5F* or 4F*, they all begin 1F*. Wouldn't you think there was some variation? I mean Ford gets a lot of its parts for its Mustang from Mexico. And some parts from Canada, most likely. Don't you think at least some Mustangs or Fusions, Foci, or whatever would get a 4? And don't you think it is odd that Mercury and Lincoln use enough content to get a 1 for their cars, but Mercury gets a 4 for their trucks? And Mazda too? And Lincoln gets a 5? Why do you think that Mercury and Lincoln build their parts in Canada while Ford doesn't? And do you have any independent evidence that they do? Get a clue man. > Yet, all the first digits of each vehicle type (car, truck, SUV, truck - > chasis only, etc.) seems to be set for each make? I mean, I haven't seen > any Fords that begin 5F* or 4F*, they all begin 1F*. Not all. 3FTHF36G7VMA62345 2FMDA5247YBA81967 2FAFP74W24X155966 3fahp31391r201444 3FAHP08136R231288 2fthf36g1tca41550 3FAHP39593R168048 2FAFP71W73X105325 & Some 1Z's: 1ZVHT80NX65154048 1ZVHT89S675315120 1ZVHT82H275257800 1ZVHT82HX75293606 1ZVFT80N855186518 1ZVFT82H265253445 1ZVFT80NX65107092 I couldn't find any w/ 5F or 4F. Rob >> Yet, all the first digits of each vehicle type (car, truck, SUV, truck - >> chasis only, etc.) seems to be set for each make? I mean, I haven't seen [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Rob Those that begin with 2 or 3 were built in Canada or Mexico. I am not sure what the ones that begin with 1ZT are. >>> Yet, all the first digits of each vehicle type (car, truck, SUV, >>> truck - chasis only, etc.) seems to be set for each make? I mean, I [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > I am not sure what the ones that begin with 1ZT are. You are more than welcome to google them, you know. Rob I know! I can't prove it, I didn't bookmark the URL, Search the FMC site, WBMA ;) mike >>> Yet, all the first digits of each vehicle type (car, truck, SUV, truck - >>> chasis only, etc.) seems to be set for each make? I mean, I haven't seen [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > I am not sure what the ones that begin with 1ZT are. >I know! I can't prove it, I didn't bookmark the URL, Search the FMC site, >WBMA ;) > > mike Well now we are getting somewhere. you don't actually have any proof. You just think there is some proof. You think you remember seeing some proof, but you can't find it, so you are hoping someone can find it for you. Give up Mike. There is no relationship between the WMI and domestic content. Nobody is going to find proof that doesn't exist. Here is more for you to think about. To be considered a domestic vehicle, the vehicle must have 75% domestic content. According to the domestic content label, the average Mustang only contains 70% domestic content, but it is assembled in the USA and gets a "1" as the first digit of the VIN. Likewise, the average 2008 Ford Escape only includes 65% domestic content, yet is still gets a "1" as the first digit of the VIN. How do you explain these vehicles that don't seem to fit into your pet theory that the VIN indicates domestic content? Ed >>> Yet, all the first digits of each vehicle type (car, truck, SUV, truck - >>> chasis only, etc.) seems to be set for each make? I mean, I haven't seen [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > I am not sure what the ones that begin with 1ZT are. There are no 1ZTs in the list. The 1ZVs are all Mustangs built at the Flat Rock Assembly Plant jointly owned by Ford and Mazda ( 1ZV = Automotive Alliance International (USA) Ford Passenger Car) Here is a list of all the 2007 Ford WMI from https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin_tools/default.asp : VIN Code Vehicle Manufacturer Make Type 1F6 Detroit Chassis LLC, USA Ford Basic (Stripped) Chassis 1FA Ford Motor Company, USA Ford Passenger Car 1FB Ford Motor Company, USA Ford Bus 1FC Ford Motor Company, USA Ford Basic (Stripped) Chassis 1FD Ford Motor Company, USA Ford Incomplete Vehicle 1FM Ford Motor Company, USA Ford MPV* 1FT Ford Motor Company, USA Ford Truck (Completed Vehicle) 1L1 Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln Incomplete Vehicle - Limousine 1LJ Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln Incomplete Vehicle (Hearse) 1LN Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln Passenger Car 1ME Ford Motor Company, USA Mercury Passenger Car 1MH Ford Motor Company, USA Mercury Incomplete Vehicle 1ZV Automotive Alliance International (USA) Ford Passenger Car 2FA Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Ford Passenger Car 2FD Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Ford Incomplete Vehicle 2FM Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Ford MPV 2FT Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Ford Truck (Completed Vehicle) 2LM Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Lincoln MPV 2ME Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Mercury Passenger Car 2MH Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Mercury Incomplete Vehicle 2MR Ford Motor Company of Canada, Ltd. Mercury MPV 3FA Ford Motor Company Mexico Ford Passenger Car 3FD Ford Motor Company Mexico Ford Incomplete Vehicle 3FT Ford Motor Company Mexico Ford Truck (Completed Vehicle) 3FN Blue Diamond Trucks S. De R. L. De C. V. Ford Truck (Completed Vehicle) 3FR Blue Diamond Trucks S. De R. L. De C. V. Ford Incomplete Vehicle 3LN Ford Motor Company, Mexico Lincoln Passenger Car 3ME Ford Motor Company, Mexico Mercury Passenger Car 4F2 Ford Motor Company, USA Mazda MPV 4F4 Ford Motor Company, USA Mazda Truck (Completed Vehicle) 4M2 Ford Motor Company, USA Mercury MPV 5L1 Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln MPV - Limousine 5LM Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln MPV 5LT Ford Motor Company, USA Lincoln Truck (Completed Vehicle) Ed > If that were true, as you choose to believe, why does Toyota not have just > a 4, rather than a 4 and 5. On the other hand Nissan, who started to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> assigned just '1's. Then they ran out. >> Jeff Mike, it is a matter of belief. It is a matter of evidence. And right now, there is a lot of evidence that contradicts your conjecture and none to support it. How about supporting it with a URL? You said you have one. So just post it, and show I am wrong. Jeff You are free to believe whatever you chose but why did you not answer the question asked instead of asking one? I have told you were to look numerous times. You may bookmark ever site you visit. I do not mike >> If that were true, as you choose to believe, why does Toyota not have >> just a 4, rather than a 4 and 5. On the other hand Nissan, who started [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Jeff > You are free to believe whatever you chose but why did you not answer the > question asked instead of asking one? I have told you were to look [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> Jeff Yeah, you said to look in the Department of Commerce web site. I did. There is nothing about the domestic content and VINs there. Tell us the URL where it is found. The truth is that the only place it is found is in Mike's imagination. Jeff > You are free to believe whatever you chose but why did you not answer the > question asked instead of asking one? I have told you were to look [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >> >> Jeff It should be in your history. Both Firefox and Internet Explorer have keep a history of all the sites you have visited. Of course, you would have actually have had to have found proof to back your claim for this to work. Jeff No for me. I use a laptop, via satellite to reach a server that is connect to the PTD.net ISP, that provides my connection to the NGs. My history, cookies etc are deleted automatically, when sign off. Emails sent to my mailbox on that server are automaticly deleted after 24 hours. mike >> You are free to believe whatever you chose but why did you not answer the >> question asked instead of asking one? I have told you were to look [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It should be in your history. Both Firefox and Internet Explorer have keep > a history of all the sites you have visited. > Jeff Do you own homework, WBMA mike >> You are free to believe whatever you choose but as one might expect you >> are incorrect, not all Hondas assembled in the US have a '1.' Not all [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > What I find curious is that you have provied no verifiable evidence that > anything you say is correct. > Jeff > Do you own homework, WBMA > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >> Jeff I have done my homework. I have found a lot that is inconsistant with your claim. That, plus a complete lack of evidence supporting your claim tells me that you claim is bogus. Jeff You are free to beleive whatever you choose. ;) mike >> Do you own homework, WBMA >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > Jeff > You are free to beleive whatever you choose. ;) > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> >> Jeff I choose to believe what I have evidence for. I have no evidence that the first digit of the VIN means anything other than the ramblings of an old man. So I believe that the VIN has nothing to do with content, only location of assembly. You have been invited several times to support your claim. You can't or choose not to. jeff > You are free to believe whatever you choose but as one might expect > you are incorrect, not all Hondas assembled in the US have a '1.' [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > 5? I told you a dozen times were to search. I could not care less > whether you do so, or not Vehicles built at Toyota's first plant in the country, NUMMI in California all get a "1." Vehicles built at the Toyota Motor Manufacturing plant in Kentucky get a "4." Vehicles built at the Toyota Motor Manufacturing Plants in Indiana and Texas get a "5". It is that simple. It has nothing to do with the domestic content of the vehicles built at those plants. Here is something else for you to chew on - Titians and Frontiers get a "1" for the first digit. Quests, Armadas and Xterras get a "5." The Domestic content is nearly the same for Armadas and Titans . How do you explain that? BTW, US built Sentras get a "3." US built Altimas get a "1". US built Maximas get a "1" Guess what, Maximas don't count as domestic vehicles, and Altimas do. Why do they both get a "1." You keep telling people to search for the proof to prove you right. Well I have searched and IT DOES NOT EXIST. Telling people to search for nonexistent proof is dishonest. If you had any proof at all, you would have provided it long ago. Ed > Vehicles built at Toyota's first plant in the country, NUMMI in > California all get a "1." ======== Ed, you're mistaken there, buddy. Bonehenge owns a 2005 Tacoma made at NUMMI in Fremont. The VIN of his Tacoma starts with a 5--not a 1. Not everything coming out of NUMMI begins with a 1 like you say. On Mar 15, 6:29 pm, "Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toy...@hotmail.com> wrote: > > Vehicles built at Toyota's first plant in the country, NUMMI in > > California all get a "1." [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Not everything coming out of NUMMI begins with a 1 like you say. You are correct, all the Toyota Trucks assembled in the US get a "5". The trucks assembled at NUMMI are "5T" Cars assembled at Nummi aren "1N" It seems that Toyota uses the "5" in the first location to indicated the vehicle is a truck (just like Lincoln does). Ed Ed, I was going to let things smoothe over between us, but you refuse to let me do so. Once again you are not correct. You write, "It seems that Toyota uses the '5' in the first location to indicate the vehicle is a truck (just like Lincoln does)." Toyota does Not use a "5" in the first VIN position to indicate a truck. You will also find a 5 leading the VIN for Sienna minivans assembled in the Princeton, Indiana plant. "5" also leads VINs for Sequoias assembled there. That plant, by the way, is indicated by the letter "S" found in the eleventh position. Your favorite Toyota factory (a joint operation of GM and 'Yota) is indicated by a "Z" in the eleventh position. The "Z" refers to NUMMI in Fremont. There's no reason to use the first VIN position to indicate a truck, because charactes 4 through 9 (right after the WMI) comprise the "Vehicle Descriptor Section." Ed, I will let this debate go as long as we both recognize that Mike Hunter's assertion regarding the first VIN position has not yet been definitively disproven :-) <...> > Ed, I will let this debate go as long as we both recognize that > Mike Hunter's assertion regarding the first VIN position has > not yet been definitively disproven :-) Considering that there is not a lick of evidence that Mike's conjecture is true, no documentation of it in the US code or any website, and much information that is inconsistant with it, it is effectively disproven. Jeff On Mar 16, 10:18 am, "Built_Well" <Built_Well_Toy...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Ed, I was going to let things smoothe over between us, but you > refuse to let me do so. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > for Sequoias assembled there. That plant, by the way, is > indicated by the letter "S" found in the eleventh position. As far as CAFE is concnerned, Siennas, Sequoias, Tundras, and Tacomas are all light trucks, and amazingly, they all get a "5" for the first digit. Maybe this is just a coincidence. Navigators and Lincoln Mark LTs are also "light trucks" and they also have a "5" for the first digit. Why don't they get a "1" since they are clearly domestc vehicles? Mercury Trucks (Mariner, Mountaineer) get a "4" as the first digit. Why don't they get a "1"? They are clearly domestic vehicles as well. I don't think there is a rule that requires Toyota or Ford or Lincoln or Mercury to use a 1 or 4 or 5 to indicate the type of vehicle or the plant where it was built. The first three digit taken as a whole identify the manufacturer. Many manufacturers have multiple WMIs. These are assigned by the SAE. There is an easily found list of Ford WMIs and how they are assigned. None of the Ford WMI are assigned based on domestic content. Although Wikipedia has a list of Toyota WMIs, there is not clear list showing how Toyota uses them. By looking at VINs for various Toyta models you can determine the following: 1N - Nummi built cars (Corrollas) 5T - Toyota USA manufactured Light Trucks (Sequioas, Tundras, Tacomas, Tundras) 4T - Toyota USA manufactured Cars (Camry, Solara, Avalon) The third digit has some relationship to the body style. There are lots of different third digits for trucks, not so many for cars (as far as I can tell the third digit for all Camrys and Avalons is "1"). There are no "1T" Toyotas as far as I can tell (but plent of "1Ns"). Why is this the case? I don't know. But I do know that the domestic contnet labels for several Toyota models show 75% or higher domestic content. If the rules required that the first digit indicated domestic contnet, I would think these vehicles would have a "1". Likewise Lincoln LTs which have a 90% domestic contnet, would have a "1" as well, instead of the "5" they actually have for the first digit. So here is the way I see it: 1) Just comparing domestic contnet labels and VINs suggests there is no relation ship between VINs and domestic conntent 2) No one has ever provided any evidence that there is a link between domestic content and VINs. Mike Hunter has alluded to the existence of such a link, but has been unwilling to provide a verifiable reference despite being asked for this repeatedly. 3) If such a link existed, why is it so difficult to find any evidence of it? 4) I think Mike Hunter dreamed up the link and is too stubborn to admit he was wrong. > Your favorite Toyota factory (a joint operation of GM and 'Yota) > is indicated by a "Z" in the eleventh position. The "Z" refers > to NUMMI in Fremont. And? If you go to the Toyota Fleet VIN Decoder (http:// fleet.toyota.com/html/vin_decoder.asp), they claim that at a "1" in the first position of the VIN indicates NUMMI built vehicles. For Position 1 - 1 = USA:NUMMI, 4 = USA: TMMK (Kentucky), 5 = USA: TMMI & TMMCA (Indiana and California) It is pretty obvious that this VIN decoder is not up to date since it won't correctly decode some newer VINs and does not address the new plant in Texas. > There's no reason to use the first VIN position to indicate > a truck, because charactes 4 through 9 (right after the WMI) > comprise the "Vehicle Descriptor Section." That may be ture, but as far as I can tell, all current USA assembled Toyota "Light Trucks" (Light Trucks include Vans and SUVs) get a 5 for the first digit. > Ed, I will let this debate go as long as we both recognize that > Mike Hunter's assertion regarding the first VIN position has > not yet been definitively disproven :-) Hard to prove a negative. No one, not you, not Mike, has provided any evidence that the first digit has anything to do with domestic contnet. Don't you suppose if this was true there would be at least one easily found refernce that confirms it? Mike treats his wild speclation as if was true becasue he said so. He makes vague references to unfindable documents. When he is challenged on this, he says something like "I am not going to do your research for you." Clearly he doesn't have any proof of his claim and is just trying to avoid admitting it is merely his speculation and not a fact. Ed <...> > 4) I think Mike Hunter dreamed up the link and is too stubborn to > admit he was wrong. Mike Hunter said his engineer friend told him about the VIN content thing. So he might not have dreamt it up. Not that it matters. I concur that he is too stubborn to admit he is wrong. I have admitted I am wrong many times. I even got the type of weight on wheels wrong (I said aluminum instead of lead. Oopsie - Big brain fart there). >> Your favorite Toyota factory (a joint operation of GM and 'Yota) >> is indicated by a "Z" in the eleventh position. The "Z" refers [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > contnet. Don't you suppose if this was true there would be at least > one easily found refernce that confirms it? But it is to find evidence that this conjecture of Mike's is wrong. Like the Lincoln and Mercury trucks/SUVs and their VINs. Unfortunately, there is no affordable master list of all the VINs. SAE has one, but it is too expensive. > Mike treats his wild speclation as if was true becasue he said so. He > makes vague references to unfindable documents. When he is challenged > on this, he says something like "I am not going to do your research > for you." Clearly he doesn't have any proof of his claim and is just > trying to avoid admitting it is merely his speculation and not a fact. The fact that the first digit of the VINs are 1, 4 and 5, rather than 1, 2 and 3 is consistant with the 4 and 5 were added on later, as the US ran out of WMIs. Otherwise, the US would 1, 2 and 3, and Canada and Mexico would be 4 and 5. Had the internet been widely used back in the 80s (yeah, I used it college and grad school then), and newspapers were on it back then, there probably would have been documents on sae.org as well as newspaper articles about the new assignment of the first digit of the VINs. But, the archives are incomplete going back that far, at best. And the avaiable sources, like wikipedia are incorrect or misleading, too. Of course, if the VINs reflect content, there should be easily found documents about this too, in the US code, the Transportation Department or SAE, but, there aren't any. The bottom line is that the VINs don't reflect content. That's why there is so little evidence. Jeff > Ed Just a sidenote: VINs that begin "1N" are used both for Toyota Corollas and Nissans like the Altima. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > Just a sidenote: VINs that begin "1N" are used both for > Toyota Corollas and Nissans like the Altima. True, but all the Corollas are "1NX." The WMI is not just the first digit, or the first two digits, it is the first three digits taken as a whole. I have wondered if the reason that there are no 1T US built Toyotas might not be the result of another company being assigned the "1T" before Toyota. The SAE maintains a completel list of WMIs, but they don't give it away. I think that it is entirely possible that "1T" was previously assigned, just like NUMMI got the 1N. Nissan still uses 1N as well, but the third digits are all different. Ed > ...but the third digits are all different. ======== Yeah, the third *character* has to be different since WMIs have to be unique, but the third *character* is not always a digit, as you mentioned above ;-) A little sloppy, but acceptable :-) SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > ...but the third digits are all different. ======== Yeah, the third *character* has to be different since WMIs have to be unique, but the third *character* is not always a digit, as you mentioned above ;-) A little sloppy, but acceptable :-) > > ...but the third digits are all different. > ======== [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > A little sloppy, but acceptable :-) OK, I should have saud the third position, or the third character. The SAE does not give away the list of WMIs, but NHTSA does. I think I can now understand why Toyota doesn't get to use "1T." Here is a list of "1T" WMIs: WMI MFG NAME PRODUCT TYPE MODEL 1T0 TRAIL-RITE INC TRAILER 1T0 TRAIL-RITE BOAT TRAILERS TRAILER 1T7 THOMAS BUILT BUSES INC. BUS 1T7 THOMAS BUILT BUSES INC BUS 1T7/1T8 "THOMAS BUILT BUSES, INC." BUS "PUSHER, FC" 1T8 THOMAS BUILT BUSES INC BUS 1T8 THOMAS BUILT BUSES INC. INCOMPLETE VEHICLE 1T9 TRAILER HITCH CO. TRAILER 1T9 "TIMPTE, INC." TRAILER 1T9 TITAN FABRICATION & WELDING TRAILER 1T9 "THIELE MANUFACTURIN, LLC , INC." TRAILER 1T9 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9 "CAMIT INDUSTRIES, INC." TRAILER 1T9/ COMMERCIAL BODY SALES & MAN CO TRAILER 1T9/006 TRI-STAR TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/013 TRIAD TRAILERS LLC TRAILER 1T9/016 PERFORMANCE TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/016 PERFORMANCE TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/030 "TUFF BOY, INC." TRAILER 1T9/031 TRUCK EQUIPMENT CORPORATION TRUCK BALE WAGON 1T9/040 TRAILER HITCH INC TRAILER 1T9/040 TRAILER HITCH INC TRAILER 1T9/040 TRAILER HITCH INC. TRAILER 1T9/040 TRAILER HITCH INC. TRAILER 1T9/040 TRAILER HITCH CO. TRAILER 1T9/040 TRAILER HITCH INC. TRAILER 1T9/040 TRAILER HITCH INC. TRAILER 1T9/040 TRAILER HITCH CO. INC. TRAILER 1T9/040 TRAILER HITCH INC. TRAILER 1T9/050 "TRAVEL UNITS, INC." TRAILER SEE MEMO 1T9/050 "TRAVEL UNITS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/054 TEAM FENEX LTD TRAILER 1T9/054 TEAM FENEX LTD. TRAILER UTILITY 1T9/054 TEAM FENEX TRAILER 1T9/054 TEAM FENEX TRAILER 1T9/057 TOMCO MANUFACTURING TRAILER 1T9/057 TOMCO MANUFACTURING TRAILER 1T9/057 TOMCO MFG. CO. TRAILER 1T9/060 "INTERNATIONAL TANK-TRAILER,INC" TRAILER SEE MEMO 1T9/060 "INTERNATIONAL TANK-TRAILER,INC" TRAILER TANK 1T9/067 TETON HOMES TRAILER 1T9/067 TETON INTERNATIONAL 1T9/067 TETON HOMES TRAILER PARK 1T9/068 THOMPSON TANK & MFG. CO. INC. TRAILER 1T9/068 "THOMPSON TANK & MFG. CO.,INC." TRAILER 1T9/070 TOMMY'S TRAILER SALES TRAILER 1T9/072 "THE TRAILER COMPANY, INC." TRAILER 1T9/081 TOM COSTELLO TRAILER 1T9/090 "TPD TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/090 TPD TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/090 DEPARTMENT OF MOTOR VEHICLE TRAILER TPD 1T9/101 T-N-T WELDING TRAILER 1T9/101 "TIGER TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/103 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9/103 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9/103 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9/103 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9/103 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9/103 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9/103 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9/103 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9/103 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9/103 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9/103 TRAILERS PLUS TRAILER 1T9/114 TRANSTECH LTD. TRAILER "UTILITY,FLATBED" 1T9/118 "TRAILBOSS TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/120 "TAMPA TRAILERWORKS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/120 "TAMPA TRAILERWORKS, INC." TRAILER "5TH WH, TAGALNG" 1T9/121 TAYLOR-WHARTON TRAILER CRYOGENIC 1T9/123 TRAILER PLUS TRAILER 1T9/123 "TYLER COACH MFG., INC." TRAILER 1T9/123 "TYLER COACH MFG., INC." TRAILER SEE MEMO 1T9/124 T-ROME ENT. TRAILER 1T9/125 TWIN CITY WELDING&TRAILER SALE TRAILER "FTBED,BOAT,CAR" 1T9/130 "TRAVEL LINE, INC." TRAILER 1T9/135 TAC TRAILERS TRAILER BOAT-CATAMARAN 1T9/137 TODD'S WELDING SERVICE TRAILER 1T9/139 TRAILER LTD. TRAILER 1T9/139 TRAILERS LTD. TRAILER 1T9/147 "INTL. TRANSIT SYSTEMS,LTD." BUS 1T9/148 "THOR TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/148 "THOR TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER UTILITY 1T9/153 TRAILER PRODUCTS OF C.N.Y. TRAILER 1T9/154 TEXAS MFG. TRAILER BOAT 1T9/156 TFS CUSTOM FABRICATING & MFG. TRAILER UTILITY 1T9/160 TRIPLE J. TRAILER SALES TRAILER UTILITY 1T9/163 THERMO CONCEPTS TRAILER 1T9/165 TRIANGLE HEALTH CARE SYSTEMS TRAILER 1T9/168 TAILORED TRAILORS TRAILER MOTORCYCLE 1T9/175 TONKAWA TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/177 TELEX TRAILER 1T9/181 TRAILER WORLD TRAILER 1T9/187 TRAILER DISTRIBUTORS INC. TRAILER 1T9/196 T.D.TRAILERS TRAILER STANDARD 1T9/198 "CP DEVELOPMENT, INC. dba TRICKER TRAILERS" TRAILER 1T9/198 TRICKER TRAILERS INC. TRAILER 1T9/199 TIGER LINE EQUIPMENT INC. TRAILER SNOWMOBILE 1T9/199 TIGER LINE EQUIPMENT INC. TRAILER 1T9/204 "TARASPORT TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/204 "TRANS PORT TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/204 "TARASPORT TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/206 SAWYER SALES & SERVICE INC. TRAILER 1T9/210 TIMEOUT TRAILERS INC TRAILER 1T9/211 TITAN TRAILER MFG. TRAILER 1T9/211 TITAN TRAILER MFG. TRAILER 1T9/214 TBG EQUIPMENT DIVISION TRAILER 1T9/221 TRAIL RITE TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/221 TRAIL RITE TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/226 T&O TRAILER MANUFACTURER TRAILER 1T9/226 T & O TRAILER MANUFACTURER TRAILER 1T9/227 TERRY'S TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/227 TERRY'S TRAILER TRAILER 1T9/229 X-TEN 1T9/230 T & E ENTERPRISES OF HERSHER TRAILER 1T9/230 T & E ENTER.OF HERSHER INC. TRAILER 1T9/230 "DIVERSIFIED METALS, INC." TRAILER TAGALONG 1T9/231 "TOP ENTERPRISES, INC." TRAILER 1T9/231 "TOP ENTERPRISES, INC." TRAILER 1T9/233 "THRU-AIR, INC." 1T9/237 TRIPLE B&J TRAILERS MFG INC TRAILER 1T9/237 TRIPLEB&J TRAILERS MFG. INC TRAILER 1T9/240 "TRIANGLE MFG., AND PUMP CO." 1T9/241 T.W.G. MACHINE INC. TRAILER 1T9/242 TEXAS TRAILER TRAILER 1T9/244 TRANSPORT EQUIPMENT MFG. & SAL 1T9/244 "TRANSPORT EQUIP., MFG., & SALE" TRAILER 1T9/247 "TRAVIS BODY & TRAILER, INC." TRAILER 1T9/247 "TRAVIS BODY & TRAILER, INC." 1T9/247 "TRAVIS BODY & TRAILER, INC." TRAILER 38' 1T9/249 T-ROME EWT. TRAILER 1T9/249 TRAILS WEST MANUFACTURING TRAILER 1T9/250 "TRAILERS-R-US, INC." TRAILER 1T9/251 TRI-CO SPECIALTIES TRAILER 1T9/252 T.D.S. CORP. TRAILER 1T9/252 T.D.S. CORPORATION 1T9/252 TDS CORP. TRAILER 1T9/254 TIMBERLINE ENTERPRISES TRAILER 1T9/260 TRANSLIFT SYSTEMS INC. TRAILER 1T9/268 TSE INTERNATIONAL INC TRAILER 1T9/268 "TSE INTERNATIONAL, INC." TRAILER 1T9/277 TEMPLES TRAILER SALES INC. TRAILER 1T9/277 "TESH & SONS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/279 TNT DESIGNS TRAILER 1T9/280 TECHNICAL STRUCTURES INC. BUS 1T9/281 TEMPLES TRAILER SALES INC. TRAILER 1T9/282 TRAILERS UNLIMITED 1T9/285 TERRA TRAILERS & TRUCK SALES TRAILER 1T9/286 TOTAL LIVESTOCK CONCEPTS TRAILER TANDEM AXLE 1T9/287 TEMPLES' TRAILER SALES INC. 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MOTORCYCLE 1T9/718 CANYON TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/719 TROXELL COMPANY INC TRAILER 1T9/720 TUG HILL TRAILER MFG TRAILER 1T9/721 TRELAN MANFACTURING TRAILER 1T9/721 TRELAN MANUFACTURING TRAILER 1T9/722 TLC OF TX INC TRAILER 1T9/723 TIMELEE'S TRAILER 1T9/723 TIMELEE'S TRAILER 1T9/726 TIGER TRUCK LLC LOW SPEED VEHICLE 1T9/730 TRANSCOR TRAILER 1T9/731 TRAILER & TRUCK TRAILER 1T9/732 TROLLEY BOATS BUS 1T9/734 THUNDER CYCLE DESIGN INC. MOTORCYCLE 1T9/735 TOMAHAWK FABRICATING TRAILER 1T9/736 TEXAS PRECISION TRAILER 1T9/738 THE WOODMAN MOTORCYCLE CO. MOTORCYCLE 1T9/741 TRAILALONG TRAILER INC TRAILER 1T9/744 THE SHOLAR COMPANY INC TRAILER 1T9/744 THE SHOLAR COMPANY INC TRAILER 1T9/746 TRIPLE-C TRAILERS LLC TRAILER 1T9/746 "TRIPLE-C TRAILERS, LLC" TRAILER 1T9/750 TAYLOR'S FAB & MECHANICAL SVC'S TRAILER 1T9/750 TAYLOR'S FAB & MECHANICAL SVC'S MOTORCYCLE 1T9/751 T&D ENTERPRISE INC TRAILER 1T9/751 T&D ENTERPRISES TRAILER 1T9/751 T & D ENTERPRISE INC TRAILER 1T9/752 TABOO MOTORCYCLE COMPANY LLC MOTORCYCLE 1T9/753 GALAXY TRAILER MFG TRAILER 1T9/755 TRAIL-A-LONG MANUFACTURING TRAILER 1T9/757 "TMS, INC. (THE MACHINE SHOP INC)" TRAILER 1T9/757 "TMS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/758 "RIVER PRODUCTS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/758 "TALON TRAILERS DIVISION OF RIVER PRODUCTS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/759 TOP TOW TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/761 TAILGATER PARTY TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/761 TAILGATER PARTY TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/762 TRAILER SALES AND SUPPLY OF CHATTAHOOCHEE TRAILER 1T9/763 TECHSUN TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/764 THORP EQUIPMENT INC TRAILER 1T9/764 "THORP EQUIPMENT, INC." TRAILER 1T9/765 "TOW-ME TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER UTILITY TRAILER 1T9/765 "TOW-ME TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/766 "TWADDLE MANUFACTURING, INC." TRAILER 1T9/767 TM TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/769 MOBILITY SOLUTIONS LLC DBA TAILGATOR TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/770 T BAR J TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/775 "TECHNOLOGY PLUS TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1T9/776 "TMC TRAILERS, LLC" TRAILER 1T9/777 TRAILERS + TRAILER 1T9/779 CRARY A DIV OF TERRAMARC INDUSTRIES INC. TRAILER 1T9/779 CRARY A DIV OF TERRAMARC INDUSTRIES INC. TRAILER FLAT BED 1T9/780 TRIPLE-B TRUCK BODY TRAILER 1T9/781 TAYLOR POWER SYSTEMS TRAILER 1T9/784 "T & D MANUFACTURING, LLC" TRAILER 1T9/785 TMC DESIGN CORPORATION TRAILER 1T9/788 TBM MFG. TRAILER 1T9/789 TEXAS TRUCK AND TRAILER TRAILER 1T9/795 TUFF BUILT TRAILERS L.L.C. TRAILER 1T9/796 "TNT CHOPPERS, INC." MOTORCYCLE 1T9/796 "TNT CHOPPERS, INC." MOTORCYCLE 1T9/797 THE THIRD WHEEL TRIKES & BIKES MOTORCYCLE 1T9/798 TRI STATE CHOPPERS L.L.C. MOTORCYCLE 1T9/799 TLC MANUFACTURING INC. 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MOTORCYCLE 1T9/884 TIGHTLINE FISH HOUSE LLC TRAILER 1T9/888 TECHLINE ENGINEERING TRAILER 1T9/889 TRAVERTSON INC. MOTORCYCLE 1T9/889 TRAVERTSON INC. MOTORCYCLE 1T9/890 TIM NOBLES TRAILERS INC. TRAILER 1T9/891 TRAVEL-LITE INC. TRAILER 1T9/892 THUG CUSTOM CYCLES LLC MOTORCYCLE 1T9/893 TRAFCON INDUSTRIES INC. TRAILER 1T9/895 TAILWINDS TRAILERS TRAILER 1T9/899 TOMCAR USA INC. LOW SPEED VEHICLE 1T9/902 TOXIC CYCLES LLC MOTORCYCLE 1T9/904 "TRAILGRADER FABRICATION, LLC" TRAILER 1T9/905 "TRAILERMAKERS, LLC" TRAILER 1T9/906 "T-BUILT TRAILER COMPANY, LLC" TRAILER 1T9/910 THUNDER STRUCK CUSTOM BIKES INC. MOTORCYCLE 1T9/915 "TILMAN DUMP TRAILERS, LLC" TRAILER 1T9/AAA INTERNATIONAL STRUCTURES L.L.C. BUS 1T9/TPM TOTEM INN INC TRAILER 1T9\232 TERRY WRIGHT WELDING TRAILER 1TA "THEURER, INC." TRAILER 1TC COACHMEN INDUSTRIES TRUCK 1TC COACHMEN INDUSTRIES TRAILER 1TD "TIMPTE, INC." TRAILER 1TD "TIMPTE, INC." TRAILER 1TH "HILLSBORO INDUSTRIES, INC." TRAILER 1TH "HILLSBORO INDUSTRIES, INC." TRAILER 1TH HILLSBORO INDUSTRIES INC TRAILER 1TH HILLSBORO INDUSTRIES INC TRAILER 1TH HILLSBORO INDUSTRIES INC TRAILER REVISION 1TH HILLSBORO INDUSTRIES INC. TRAILER 1TK "TRIAL KING INDUSTRIES, INC" TRAILER 1TK "TRAIL KING INDUSTRIES, INC." 1TP "VAN AMERICAN, INC." TRAILER 32 FB 1TP "TENNESSEE TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER SEE MEMO 1TP "TENNESSEE TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1TP "TENNESSEE TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER "BOAT,CARGO,UTIL" 1TP TENNESSEE TRAILES TRAILER 1TP "TENNESSEE TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1TP "TENNESSEE TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1TP "TENNESSEE TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1TP "TENNESSEE TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER 1TP "TENNESSEE TRAILERS, INC." TRAILER "BOAT,CARGO,UTIL" 1TP TENNESSEE TRAILERS INC. TRAILER 1TP TOMAHAWK CUSTOM CHOPPERS LLC MOTORCYCLE 1TR/169 "T.R. ARNOLD & ASSOCIATES, INC." TRAILER 1TT "VAN AMERICAN, INC." 21FIB SIERRA 1TT TRANSCRAFT CORPORATION TRAILER 1TT VAN AMERICAN 1TT VAN AMERICAN TRAILER CAT 351 1TT "VAN AMERICAN, INC." TRAILER SIERRA CAT-546 1TT "VAN AMERICAN, INC." SIERRA 1TT VAN AMERICAN INC. TRUCK 1TT "VAN AMERICAN, INC." TRAILER 26 RB T-3847 1TT "VAN AMERICAN, INC." TRAILER 30FK CAT-555 1TT "VAN AMERICAN, INC." TRAILER 33SB 1TT "VAN AMERICAN, INC." TRAILER 34 GR T-4858 1TU TRANSPORTATION MFG. CORP. BUS 1TU TRANSPORTATION MFG. CO. BUS TRANSIT 1TU TRANSPORTATION MFG CORP BUS COMPANY SOLD TO 1TU TRANSPORTATION MANUFACTURING BUS VARIOUS 1TU TRANSPORTATION MANUFACTURING 1TU TRANPORTATION MFG CORP- TMC TRAILER 1TU TRANSPORTATION MFG. CORP. BUS 1TV "VIKING RECREATIONAL VEHICLES," TRAILER 1TY TEE NEE TRAILERS TRAILER 1TY TEE NEE TRAILERS TRAILER Here is a list of current Toyota WMIs: UN3 Toyota (Ireland) Limited Ireland 8AJ Toyota Argentina SA Argentina "Passenger Car, Truck, Bus, Mpv" 4TA Toyota Auto Body Co Inc United States Pick Up Truck 8XA Toyota De Venezuela C A Venezuela All Types Of Vehicles 8XB Toyota De Venezuela C A Venezuela Reserved 8XC Toyota De Venezuela C A Venezuela Reserved 9BR Toyota Do Brasil S/A Brazil MBJ Toyota Kirloskar Motor Pvt Ltd India Passenge Car and Utility Vehicle JT1 Toyota Motor Corp Japan All JT2 Toyota Motor Corp Japan Passenger Car JT3 Toyota Motor Corp Japan Multi-Purpose Vehicle JT4 Toyota Motor Corp Japan Truck JT5 Toyota Motor Corp Japan Incomplete Vehicle JT6 Toyota Motor Corp Japan JT7 Toyota Motor Corp Japan JT8 Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTA Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTB Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTC Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTD Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTE Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTF Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTG Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTH Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTJ Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTK Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTL Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTM Toyota Motor Corp Japan JTN Toyota Motor Corp Japan JVW Toyota Motor Corp Japan Truck NMT Toyota Motor Engineering & Manufacturing Turkey SB1 Toyota Motor Manufacturing (UK) Ltd United Kingdom Passenger & Commercial Vehicles 5TE Toyota Motor Manufacturing California United States Trucks VNK Toyota Motor Manufacturing France France Automobiles 5TB Toyota Motor Manufacturing Indiana Inc United States Trucks 5TD Toyota Motor Manufacturing Indiana Inc United States Multi-Purpose Passenger Vehicles 4T1 Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky Inc United States Cars 4T1 Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky Inc United States Cars 4T2 Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky Inc United States Passenger Car 4T3 Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky Inc United States MPV 4T3 Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky Inc United States Mpv 4T4 Toyota Motor Manufacturing Kentucky Inc United States Cars 5TF Toyota Motor Manufacturing Texas Inc United States Trucks 2T1 Toyota Motor Mfg Canada Inc Canada Passenger Cars 2T2 Toyota Motor Mfg Canada Inc Canada Multipurpose Passenger Vehicle 3TM Toyota Motor Mfg De Baja California S De Mexico Trucks 4T4 Toyota Motor Mfg Northern Kentucky Inc United States Passenger Cars MR0 Toyota Motor Thailand Co Ltd Thailand Automobiles MR1 Toyota Motor Thailand Co Ltd Thailand Automobiles MR2 Toyota Motor Thailand Co Ltd Thailand Automobiles MR3 Toyota Motor Thailand Co Ltd Thailand Automobiles MR4 Toyota Motor Thailand Co Ltd Thailand Automotibles MR5 Toyota Motor Thailand Co Ltd Thailand Automobiles MR6 Toyota Motor Thailand Co Ltd Thailand Automobiles MR7 Toyota Motor Thailand Co Ltd Thailand Automobiles MR8 Toyota Motor Thailand Co Ltd Thailand RL4 Toyota Motor Vietnam Co Ltd. Vietnam Passenger Vehicle & Commercial Vehicle WTD Toyota Motorsport GmbH Germany Kraftfahrzeuge 7A4 Toyota New Zealand Limited New Zealand 7B5 Toyota New Zealand Limited New Zealand AHH Toyota SA Mfg Ltd South Africa AHT Toyota SA Mfg Ltd South Africa Passenger Vehicles Ed >> > ...but the third digits are all different. >> ======== [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > now understand why Toyota doesn't get to use "1T." Here is a list of "1T" > WMIs: <...> I was wondering where the list is. Could you post the URL? So does this squash the conjecture that the first digit of the VIN has something to do with US content? Jeff >>> > ...but the third digits are all different. >>> ======== [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > So does this squash the conjecture that the first digit of the VIN has > something to do with US content? I am sure it doesn't in Mike' mind. And to be honest, domestic content is not address in this list. Interestingly, there are a lot of non-Ford users for "1F." It also seems that a "9" in the third position indicates that a vehicle is a "trailer" and that the additional digits are used to indicate the actual trailer manufacturer. If you want to look up a WMI you can either download the Microsoft Access Database (which is what I did) or input a WMI and/or manufacturer into a search engine. Go to: http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/manufacture/ Uncheck all the search option except WMI and search away (or go to the ftp site and download the whole thing at once). It accepts partials (like 1T). You can also search by Manufacturers name (partials accepted) or by a combination of WMI and Manufacturer. There is not a single WMI for Toyota that starts with a "1" (NUMMI does, but that is not technically Toyota). Even if Toyota didn't already produce a vehicle that qualifies as a domestic vehicle (but we know they do), don't you suppose if a "1" in the first position was required to indicate a domestic vehicle, they would have reserved such a WMI? Ed The reason is, it is not a non union Toyota plant. The vehicles built in the GM/Toyota plant have a '1' because that is the only plant that has a UAW contract that requires 70% US content in the vehicles. mike >> You are free to believe whatever you choose but as one might expect you >> are incorrect, not all Hondas assembled in the US have a '1.' Not all [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > all get a "1." > Ed > The reason is, it is not a non union Toyota plant. The vehicles built in > |
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