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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / July 2007Too many dealers
Autoblog http://snipr.com/1ndp3 ..General Motors, Ford and Chrysler have far too many retail outlets relative to the number of vehicles they sell. A new study by CNW Marketing Research has now tried to quantify the dollar cost of that excess and come up with $3.9 billion, or $436 per vehicle. The three US carmakers have 15,741 dealers between them, while the Japanese carmakers have less than 4,000. Domestic dealers, on average, sell less than half as many vehicles per store annually than a Japanese brand dealer, and most sell far less than that. The extra cost comes from items like having to deliver vehicles to so many outlets, advertising support for dealers and the administrative costs associated supporting them all. For years, the domestics have been trying to find a way to reduce their dealer counts, but state franchise laws make it almost impossible for the carmakers to get rid of dealers until they want out themselves. Unfortunately, the Starbucks model of a coffee shop on every corner just doesn't work for car retailing. [Source: Detroit Free Press] http://snipr.com/1ndp5 > Autoblog http://snipr.com/1ndp3 > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > [Source: Detroit Free Press] http://snipr.com/1ndp5 Simple solution: Let wall mart sell cars and let them sell all brands. The guys that change your oil can change your broken trannie! ;) Its the rural dealer which will suffer under those conditions. Bob > Let wall mart sell cars and let them sell all brands. > The guys that change your oil can change your broken trannie! ;) > Its the rural dealer which will suffer under those conditions. > > Bob At first glance, I would have agreed with you, but on second, some of these rural dealers sell a ton of cars and have rather low real estate and employee expenses. That there is a problem is clear. How to solve it, if it CAN be solved, is not so clear. >> Let wall mart sell cars and let them sell all brands. >> The guys that change your oil can change your broken trannie! ;) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > employee > expenses. I am sure that Toyota, Honda and other brands have rural dealers that sell a lot of cars, too. I know one Chevy dealer that draws people from a city about 10 miles away with its own dealer and farther away because they have good service in the showroom and service department. So the problem isn't rural dealers, the problem is low-volume dealers. Jeff > That there is a problem is clear. How to solve it, if it CAN be solved, is > not > so clear. I dont think location is the problem. Maybe dealers with poor sales and service ratings need to go. > H...@nospam.nix wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > - Show quoted text - >> Let wall mart sell cars and let them sell all brands. >> The guys that change your oil can change your broken trannie! ;) [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > not > so clear. Wal~Mart DOES sell cars, and houses and vacation trips. You just need to find the testing stores they are using. They were even looking into starting a banking section as well but the Feds stopped it.  SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York Some of these rural dealers have high costs..... We are in a "bit" of a boom.... A starter home will cost you 250K+.... full time help at McDonalds pays $12 per hour... my 19 year old son is getting over $20/hour running a wireline truck in the oil patch.... FWIW... does anyone here want "cheap" techs working on their cars? We are after "the best of the best"... and it costs money.... serious money.... Do you want the "bargain plan" brain surgeon.... or the brain surgeon everyone else is waiting for? >> Let wall mart sell cars and let them sell all brands. >> The guys that change your oil can change your broken trannie! ;) [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > not > so clear. > Some of these rural dealers have high costs..... We are in a "bit" of a > boom.... A starter home will cost you 250K+.... full time help at McDonalds [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Do you want the "bargain plan" brain surgeon.... or the brain surgeon > everyone else is waiting for? Some of the sorriest excuses for mechanics that I have ever seen have worked for the big city dealership shops. One is more likely, in my experience, to be deeply screwed over in the big shops than in the little rural dealerships. > > Autoblog http://snipr.com/1ndp3 > > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Bob Interesting site.....their commercials are all over local stations here in the Ozarks, where their are LOTS of small buisnesses. D http://www.wakeupwalmart.com/ > ..General Motors, Ford and Chrysler have far too many retail outlets > relative to the number of vehicles they sell. A local Vancouver, BC very successful businessman Jim Pattison, who has over 50 businesses and got his start with GM dealerships, recognizes this problem. He just put the last nail in the coffin for his GM dealerships. The end of April he closed his last GM dealership and is now stocking up his Sukuzi dealership in that prime location. His auto group now sells cars from several manufacturers, only his one Chrysler dealership being of the big 3. http://www.jimpattison.com/automotive/auto_group/default.htm His web site has not been totally updated, replace: > Jim Pattison Chevrolet > 5400 Kingsway Avenue with Sukuzi. If you click on the dealership link you get: > Jim Pattison Chevrolet will soon open as Jim Pattison Suzuki This must have been very upsetting for GM! > Autoblog http://snipr.com/1ndp3 > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > [Source: Detroit Free Press] http://snipr.com/1ndp5 I agree with that, i live in a city of 50,000, there are two ford dealers, two chrysler dealers, and two chev dealers. Only one toyota, one honda, on hyundai etc dealers. (all the rest have only 1) I never could figure it out. Then if you drive 15 minutes south, you have one more ford, one more chev, one more chrysler -- no more other major brands, and 1hr north you have 2 more ford, 2 more chev, 1 dodge (truck / farm country here) and only a honda, toyota, volvo (Same dealer as the ford). rediculous. > > Autoblog http://snipr.com/1ndp3 > > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > rediculous. Lets see. So if you take your Toyota to the 1 Toyota dealer and he pisses you off by overcharging you, then what? Seems to me your screwed. Ted >> I never could figure it out. Then if you drive 15 minutes south, you >> have one more ford, one more chev, one more chrysler -- no more other [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Lets see. So if you take your Toyota to the 1 Toyota dealer and he pisses > you off by overcharging you, then what? Seems to me your screwed. Exactly! I had my vehicle serviced at 4 different Ford dealerships. One time, I had an electrical problem with my vehicle and one dealership could not diagnose it. They did not charge me for the service. So, I went to another dealership for the same problem and that other dealership was able to diagnose it and repaired the problem. They only charged me for the repairs under my Extended Service Plan. The reason why I had my vehicles serviced at different dealerships is because I had to make sure I don't get screwed over my Extended Service Plan. Some Ford dealerships would screw you claiming that they would not honor your Extended Service Plan because you purchased your vehicle from another dealership. That is what I call hogwash. According to the Ford Motor Company, the Extended Service Plan is honored at ALL Ford, Lincoln and Mercury dealerships. Many people has to travel 50 to 100 miles from home to purchase or service their foreign vehicles when there's only 1 foreign vehicles dealership in a certain town or city. If one city has only 1 Toyota, 1 Honda, 1 Volvo, 1, BMW and 1 Mercedes dealership and their service departments cannot diagnose the problem on your vehicle, what do you do? It looks like you're screwed and you would have to travel between to the next nearest city to get your vehicle serviced. ~CyberWolf >>> I never could figure it out. Then if you drive 15 minutes south, you >>> have one more ford, one more chev, one more chrysler -- no more other [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > serviced at different dealerships is because I had to make sure I don't get > screwed over my Extended Service Plan. Instead of purchasing insurance (Extended Service Plan; ESP) for repairs on my vehicle, I just kept the money in my bank account. That's what the dealers do with most of the money they get when the sell the insurance. And I can take my car wherever I want for repairs. The total number of repairs I would have had I wasted my money on the insurance: $0. The other thing is that there are often recalls and campaigns that Ford and other makers have for problem parts. If there is such a campaign, the dealer is going to say that the insurance plan covered it, when in reality, that's not true. The ESP and other insurance plans are mostly a waste of money. And what happens if you sell your car? You lose the money? What happens if you sell your car to auto insurance company after it is wrecked? Ditto. The ESP and other insurance plans are quick buck for the auto companies. Jeff > Some Ford dealerships would screw you claiming that they would not honor > your Extended Service Plan because you purchased your vehicle from another [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > ~CyberWolf >Instead of purchasing insurance (Extended Service Plan; ESP) for repairs >on my vehicle, I just kept the money in my bank account. That's what the [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >Jeff We're starting to get off the original topic here, but the above is not always true. My friend bought the extended warranty on his truck, and it's paid for itself at this point. Not "many times over" but it has, and then some. -GV "GlassVial" <glassvial@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message > We're starting to get off the original topic here, but the above is > not always true. My friend bought the extended warranty on his truck, > and it's paid for itself at this point. Not "many times over" but it > has, and then some. > > -GV Sure, a few people make out. Most don't. > "GlassVial" <glassvial@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sure, a few people make out. Most don't. For sure if you are a competent DIY'er and have an aversion to dealers, I'd say the odds are against it paying off financially and emotionally. Obviously, statistically, the company has to make a profit or go out of business. Extended warranties are important only against worrying about major expense failures (tranny, engine, etc.) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') have you had to buy a power steering pump or ac compressor lately? the ac compressor runs about 350 to 500 dollars depending on brand of car but that extended warranty may cover depending on which one you get. a a/c compressor is not a engine or trans but makes the service contract worth the money spent on it because they also cover r134, seals and reciever-dryer were if you did not have coverage it would come out of your own pocket. which makes a a/c repair a major expense nowadays even a power steering pump is not a cheap fix and if you drive a chrysler product you will end up needing a compressor and evap coil just hope it fails before a 100k > > "GlassVial" <glassvial@NOSPAM.hotmail.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') > have you had to buy a power steering pump or ac compressor lately? > the ac compressor runs about 350 to 500 dollars depending on brand of car [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > and if you drive a chrysler product you will end up needing a compressor and > evap coil just hope it fails before a 100k I agree that those repairs are expensive, but I still - were one of those problems to occur - would be money ahead without having spent the money for the extended policy. Average the cost and the risks over several cars over the years, and you would average out money ahead without the extended coverage. If not, the companies would not be able to stay in business. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') i picked a repair that i know is a common issue on dc vehicles just like the rack and pinions failing along with p/s pumps and wheel bearings that have a high failure rate the cost of the service contract (not insurance )is justified . also you can count on the hourly labor rate to go up every 3 months or so > > have you had to buy a power steering pump or ac compressor lately? > > the ac compressor runs about 350 to 500 dollars depending on brand of car [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') > i picked a repair that i know is a common issue on dc vehicles just like the rack > and pinions failing along with p/s pumps and wheel bearings that have a high > failure rate > the cost of the service contract (not insurance )is justified . also you can count > on the hourly labor rate to go up every 3 months or so Which is one of the reasons I do my own work whenever possible. I happen to have a '99 Concorde with a bad evaporator now, and I still have no regrets not having extended coverage. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') really ? wait till you pull that dash or pay the repair bill > > i picked a repair that i know is a common issue on dc vehicles just like the rack > > and pinions failing along with p/s pumps and wheel bearings that have a high [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') >>>i picked a repair that i know is a common issue on dc vehicles just like the rack >>>and pinions failing along with p/s pumps and wheel bearings that have a high [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >>(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >>address with the letter 'x') > really ? wait till you pull that dash or pay the repair bill Yep - I've read thru the procedure in the FSM a couple of times, and I've been into certain areas of the dash already for other things, so I know what to expect. I realize it won't be fun at all, but I also shudder to think of the problems a careless tech could leave behind and the endless loop of trying to get the problems fixed until I give up and re-do it myself (in which case, I might as well do it myself to begin with). BTDT. :) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > Yep - I've read thru the procedure in the FSM a couple of times, and > I've been into certain areas of the dash already for other things, so I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Bill Putney In support, yes you can save a lot of money with DIY.. I am now pulling the evaporator core out of my 97 Dodge full sized van. I read the procedure in the cheapo Chilton and also in AllData. But there is more to it than that. It doesnt just "angle out of the engine compartment". Now I will start taking off crap until I get it out. No telling how far that will have to go. Still, I dont need the van much,and it can sit there until I am good and finished. yep seen that before, then the innards of the ac system become a victim of moisture and result in other failures > > Yep - I've read thru the procedure in the FSM a couple of times, and > > I've been into certain areas of the dash already for other things, so I [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Still, I dont need the van much,and it can sit there until I am good and > finished. >i picked a repair that i know is a common issue on dc vehicles just like >the rack [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > can count > on the hourly labor rate to go up every 3 months or so It is only justified if the cost of repairs exceeds the cost of the insurance (it is sold like insurance, a service contract pays for actual services). Considering the typical cost of the policy is about $1200, you need at least one large or two medium expenses to be covered. The total expenses of my last four cars combined would not have made that amount in the first 100,000 miles. As the car gets older and more miles, the cost of the policy goes up making it even less attractive. If it makes you warm and fuzzy feeling, by all means, buy it. If you are practical and have $500 in the bank to cover repairs, it is a money loser. As I said, a few people may make out on the deal, but most do not. That is how the insurance companies make money. SignatureEd http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/ >> i picked a repair that i know is a common issue on dc vehicles just like >> the rack [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > services). Considering the typical cost of the policy is about $1200, you > need at least one large or two medium expenses to be covered. More accurately, that wouldn't be covered another another manufacturer program, like a recall. > The total > expenses of my last four cars combined would not have made that amount in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If it makes you warm and fuzzy feeling, by all means, buy it. If you are > practical and have $500 in the bank to cover repairs, it is a money loser. More accurately, if you are practical and will have $750 in the bank at the end of regular warranty or a credit card with a low APR, it's a money loser, assuming you don't sell the vehicle first and it doesn't get destroyed. > As I said, a few people may make out on the deal, but most do not. That is > how the insurance companies make money. ed what kind of cars to you drive??? > >i picked a repair that i know is a common issue on dc vehicles just like > >the rack [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Ed > http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/ > ed what kind of cars to you drive??? Buicks and an 07 Hyundai Sonata. My '91 Regal had one potentially costly repair under warranty. Out of warranty, a water pump at 80k, a gas tank at 110,000. .I traded it last September with 150,000 miles and it still had the original exhaust. Of course, normal maintenance like brakes and a set of rotors at some point. My '97 leSabre was back to the shop only once for a warranty repair (wiper motor) and when I traded it at 97,000 miles the only repairs at that point was brakes, serpentine belt. My '01 LeSabre has needed a few things but still not al that much $$$. The rear window lifts, but I did not replace them, a wheel bearing, front rotors were are few hundred. Needed tranny work, but that was far out of regular or extended warranty time. At 110,000 I put in new plugs, wires and a coil. I expect to keep that car for another 5 years or more. Hyundai only has 17,000 miles and has not been back to the dealer for anything so far. Anything mechanical eventually will wear out and need repair. You have to be financially prepared and aware of that. If you save just a few bucks, say $20 a month, you can cover most costly repairs when they do come up. If you drive 15,000 miles a year, after 4 years you will have no serious repairs not covered and $1000 in the bank. You may or may not ever need that, making it available for other uses. The other choice is to pay that $20 a month more in your car payment for an extended warranty and have paid out $1000 that you will never see again even if you never need a repair. Willing to take the risk and self insure? In my case, I put 25,000 miles a year so the warranty runs out after 4 years. At about that time the car is replaced and it becomes my wife's car and gets <2000 miles year. wait till that hyundi timing belt breaks and the valves bend since it is a interference motor they won't warranty that > > ed what kind of cars to you drive??? > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > years. At about that time the car is replaced and it becomes my wife's car > and gets <2000 miles year. > wait till that hyundi timing belt breaks and the valves bend since it is a > interference motor they won't warranty that What belt? Mine has a chain. The 3.3 engine is quite nice from what I've seen so far. Keep up man, the world is passing you by. Hyundai has come a very long way from the rust buckets of 1986. i was referring to the four cylinder engine > > wait till that hyundi timing belt breaks and the valves bend since it is a > > interference motor they won't warranty that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Keep up man, the world is passing you by. Hyundai has come a very long way > from the rust buckets of 1986. >i was referring to the four cylinder engine Even the new 4 cylinders are getting away from the belt. As I said, get with the times. A year ago I laughed at people buying Hyundai, then I took a look. I was astonished at how far they've come and ended up buying one. Two weeks ago I went to lunch with a fellow that owns a Sebring, Camry, Corvette. After riding in my Sonata, he's heading out to the Hyundai dealer also. buy american the job you save just might be your own in my book buying asian is right up there with treason regardless of who makes a better product.i bet you won't support the troops either! i can't wait till you have to pay those repairs and see how many folks won't touch them and the ones that do charge accordingly > >i was referring to the four cylinder engine > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Corvette. After riding in my Sonata, he's heading out to the Hyundai dealer > also. > buy american the job you save just might be your own > in my book buying asian is right up there with treason regardless of who [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > won't > touch them and the ones that do charge accordingly First off, it was built by Americans in an American plant with a growing content of American made parts. As for those that won't touch then for repairs, 40 years ago a few shops didn't have metric wrenches. Now, it seems most of them actually do. I don't expect the repairs to be any more than any other mainstream automobile. I got shafted by Buick enough so I've prepared my sphincter muscle. If my Buick was not falling apart in the driveway, I'd have another right next to it. As for the troops, I have family members in Iraq and I do support all of them. When you can't make sound logical arguments in a debate you have to resort to name calling like that? You should be ashamed of yourself and your false patriotism. So I should have bought a Toyota built in Kentucky rather than a Chrysler built in Canada? Perce > buy american the job you save just might be your own > in my book buying asian is right up there with treason regardless of who makes > a better product.i bet you won't support the troops either! > i can't wait till you have to pay those repairs and see how many folks won't > touch them and the ones that do charge accordingly >So I should have bought a Toyota built in Kentucky rather than a >Chrysler built in Canada? > >Perce Or a GM built in Canada :) All 5 of my GM's I own or have owned have been the old vin 2's. The 1 (mistake) of a Ford I owned was a vin 1, go figure. And if you don't know what that means, look it up ;) -GV > So I should have bought a Toyota built in Kentucky rather than a Chrysler > built in Canada? > > Perce You are just jealous because Canada has the #1 auto plant in the world. ;-) > > So I should have bought a Toyota built in Kentucky rather than a Chrysler > > built in Canada? > > > > Perce > > You are just jealous because Canada has the #1 auto plant in the world. ;-) I always figured that Canada and the USA were so close together in many areas that we were more like family kin anyway. Maybe I am just too cynical in my goldening years, but the sort of ethic and moral that I see in the USA today is not reassuring that we will give anyone strong competition in the future. >> > So I should have bought a Toyota built in Kentucky rather than a > Chrysler [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > areas > that we were more like family kin anyway. I totally agree. When I see a car built in Canada I think it is a good thing. I think the same of a car built in the USA. You know how I feel about car's built in countries other then those. > Maybe I am just too cynical in my goldening years, but the sort of ethic > and > moral that I see in the USA today is not reassuring that we will give > anyone > strong competition in the future. We will see what the future will hold. I have high hopes the Big Three will come back, we shall see. What's wrong with cars built in Germany or Austria, for example? DAS For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] > I totally agree. When I see a car built in Canada I think it is a good > thing. I think the same of a car built in the USA. You know how I feel > about car's built in countries other then those. [...] > What's wrong with cars built in Germany or Austria, for example? Too expensive over here in NA. That's why many of them sold here, such as VW, BMW, Mercedes, are built in NAFTA. I just never really cared much for them. Plus the high cost. > What's wrong with cars built in Germany or Austria, for example? > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> > [...] > I always figured that Canada and the USA were so close together in many > areas > that we were more like family kin anyway. That was more the case in the past, but these two very friendly countries have been going separate paths in some areas, such as in health care and war. "who" <i@notaspammer.net> wrote in message > That was more the case in the past, but these two very friendly > countries have been going separate paths in some areas, such as in > health care and war. Sort of, they were never and will never be a part of our healthcare system. I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. As for war, if we had a real one, I'm confident they'd be right along side of us. > "who" <i@notaspammer.net> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Sort of, they were never and will never be a part of our healthcare system. > I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. *********** Having lived in a country where national health was a real and functioning program, I feel we are being shortchanged in the USA. Where I lived it worked, and worked VERY well. > As for war, if we had a real one, I'm confident they'd be right along side > of us. I agree. They would not follow us into perdition, but they are staunch people with a strong moral and ethical base. > I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. Everyone in Canada has basic universal health care. > As for war, if we had a real one, I'm confident they'd be right along side > of us. So true. BTW Canada is right beside the USA and other NATO troops in Afghanistan. Losing lives on a regular basis as well. >:) >> I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. > Everyone in Canada has basic universal health care. Right, but a friend of mine died while waiting for surgery that was postponed for over a year. Like others, he was going to come to the US for it, but waited too long. It is not a perfect system. >>> I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. >> Everyone in Canada has basic universal health care. > > Right, but a friend of mine died while waiting for surgery that was > postponed for over a year. Like others, he was going to come to the US for > it, but waited too long. It is not a perfect system. You are correct, it isn't a perfect system. I was told I needed to have another disc removed from my back, in January. The surgery date was postponed again and again, and I just had it done this past Monday. It wasn't major surgery, but I still had to wait several months. And, the surgery was the result of a work injury. On the other hand, I can go see my Dr., make as many emergency room visits as necessary, or even use after-hours-clinics and not have to pay to use them. "80 Knight" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message > On the other hand, I can go see my Dr., make as many emergency room > visits as necessary, or even use after-hours-clinics and not have to pay > to use them. Oh, you pay. Just as we pay for a screwed up system. > "80 Knight" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message >> On the other hand, I can go see my Dr., make as many emergency room >> visits as necessary, or even use after-hours-clinics and not have to pay >> to use them. > > Oh, you pay. Just as we pay for a screwed up system. Amen. I've had many Canadian friends over the years and more than a few relatives, who like to bash the American health care system. Well, it's easy to do - it has plenty of flaws. That said, when you look at the price paid compared to the value obtained, the Canadian system seems to be no better than ours. Free services aren't worth much when you pay 50% of your income to taxes to pay for a system that only works for the trivial things. Hell - we have really cheap emergency room care and doctor visits. I still have not seen where the Canadian system has proven to be in any way superior. Maybe in concept, but not in practice. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >>"80 Knight" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > better than ours. Free services aren't worth much when you pay 50% of your > income to taxes to pay for a system that only works for the trivial things. Oh - but it's *FREE*!! :) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') Free at the point of use, as the British NHS puts it. DAS For direct replies replace nospam with schmetterling --- [...] > Oh - but it's *FREE*!! :) > > Bill Putney > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address > with the letter 'x') >> "80 Knight" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message >>> On the other hand, I can go see my Dr., make as many emergency room [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I still have not seen where the Canadian system has proven to be in any > way superior. Maybe in concept, but not in practice. I meant no offence. What do you mean by 'trivial things'? >>> "80 Knight" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message >>>> On the other hand, I can go see my Dr., make as many emergency room [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I meant no offence. What do you mean by 'trivial things'? Canadians are always telling about long waits for serious issues. Many come down here for services because the waits are so long in Canada. The only immediate benefit seems to be for trivial office visit type of care, not for more critical, and complex issues. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >>>> "80 Knight" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message >>>>> On the other hand, I can go see my Dr., make as many emergency room [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > only immediate benefit seems to be for trivial office visit type of care, > not for more critical, and complex issues. Yes, there are at times very large waiting lists. It depends on what you need done, and where you live. However, when a Canadian with no insurance comes to the USA to get a procedure done, how much does it cost? I would rather wait in line, then have a system that gives to the rich, and makes the poor wait. Again, no offence intended towards you. Neither system is perfect. >>>>>"80 Knight" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > the poor wait. Again, no offence intended towards you. Neither system is > perfect. Illegal aliens are treated for free - by law they can't be turned down. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') >>> I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. >> Everyone in Canada has basic universal health care. > > Right, but a friend of mine died while waiting for surgery that was > postponed for over a year. Like others, he was going to come to the US for > it, but waited too long. It is not a perfect system. No system is perfect, but a wealthy person with a sore finger should not be treated ahead of a poor (or any) person with a life threatening condition. Steve R. SignatureDue to high levels of spam, all email to this account is being auto deleted. >>>> I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. >>> Everyone in Canada has basic universal health care. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Steve R. Show me a hospital where that has actually happened. The laws state that NO hospital can refuse to treat a patient presenting a life threatening condition. They also cannot refuse treatment based on the ability or lack of to pay. You might want to look at how much health care hospitals in the US provide FREE to people. There is a LOT and it is growing all the time with all the illegals and welfare changes being made. Also look at how many hospitals are being closed down by the states they are in. In this area alone there have been 6 closed in the past 2 years. WHY? Because the liberals keep forcing more legislation to "help the poor". They seem to forget that the TRULY poor already don't pay for a lot of what they get. SignatureSteve W. >>>>> I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. >>>> Everyone in Canada has basic universal health care. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > liberals keep forcing more legislation to "help the poor". They seem to > forget that the TRULY poor already don't pay for a lot of what they get. I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in Washington State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount Baker. Another person ran into her, and she went into diabetic shock. The hospital would not admit her, until friends coughed up $700.00 in cash. Steve R. SignatureDue to high levels of spam, all email to this account is being auto deleted. "Steve R." <ud233@victoria.tc.ca> wrote in message > I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in Washington > State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount Baker. Another > person ran into her, and she went into diabetic shock. The hospital would > not admit her, until friends coughed up $700.00 in cash. > > Steve R. Certain private hospitals can do that. Community hospitals must take anyone. It depends on how the hospital was chartered. I don't know the details of it all, but it is a sad situation the few times it does happen. > I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in Washington > State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount Baker. Another > person ran into her, and she went into diabetic shock. The hospital would > not admit her, until friends coughed up $700.00 in cash. I'm going to call "Bullshit" on that one. That's not how things work. I believe she may have paid the money and I believe she may have been pressed, but those are both different from not being admitted until she coughed up cash. There's more to this story, I'm sure. BTW - just how did she go into diabetic shock from being hit? That's not how diabetic shock works. There is indeed much more to this story... Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >>I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in Washington >>State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount Baker. Another [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > BTW - just how did she go into diabetic shock from being hit? That's not > how diabetic shock works. There is indeed much more to this story... Mike - you should know that you are not allowed to call B.S. on someone when they are making a liberal argument. They are allowed to embellish as they see fit and you can't question it. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') >>>I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in Washington >>>State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount Baker. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address > with the letter 'x') If anything, I understated it , and I am not a liberal ( whatever that means in the US). As for the Canadian system, I have had cancer 3 times, and it served me well. Steve R. SignatureDue to high levels of spam, all email to this account is being auto deleted. > If anything, I understated it , and I am not a liberal ( whatever that > means in the US). As for the Canadian system, I have had cancer 3 times, > and it served me well. Slow learner, huh Steve? Well listen buddy - three's a charm - give up on this already will ya? You hafta quit pressing your luck here. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in Washington >> State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount Baker. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > BTW - just how did she go into diabetic shock from being hit? That's not > how diabetic shock works. There is indeed much more to this story... After the other skier hit her, she slid into a tree with some force. Not badly injured, but she went into diabetic shock. I talked to her a week later, after she was back in Canada. Make what ever call you want, it happened. Steve R. SignatureDue to high levels of spam, all email to this account is being auto deleted. >>> I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in Washington >>> State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount Baker. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > later, after she was back in Canada. Make what ever call you want, it > happened. I don't doubt she had the incident, but it did not cause her to go into diabetic shock Steve. 12 years as a paramedic and I can assure you that diabetic shock is caused by low blood sugar. It has nothing to do with taking a fall or any other similar incident. If she suffered diabetic shock, it was because she was already at a low blood sugar level. That though, would make the two incidents unrelated, only coincidental. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >>>> I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in Washington >>>> State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount Baker. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > shock, it was because she was already at a low blood sugar level. That > though, would make the two incidents unrelated, only coincidental. If she had low blood sugar, *that* could have been related to the incident. >>>>> I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in >>>>> Washington State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > If she had low blood sugar, *that* could have been related to the > incident. Note the use of the word "coincidental" above. Though, the original story as relayed by Steve is that she was hit by another skier. The discussion is only about whether an impact like that can cause diabetic shock. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >>>>>> I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in >>>>>> Washington State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >>> shock, it was because she was already at a low blood sugar level. That >>> though, would make the two incidents unrelated, only coincidental. >> If she had low blood sugar, *that* could have been related to the >> incident. > Note the use of the word "coincidental" above. Though, the original story > as relayed by Steve is that she was hit by another skier. The discussion is > only about whether an impact like that can cause diabetic shock. So you corrected the original assumption. Fair enough. Then you pointed out that *if* she suffered diabetic shock it was she *already* had low blood sugar. At that point, the discussion was no longer about *only* whether impact can cause diabetic shock. *If* she was hypoglycemic enough to be approaching diabetic shock, chances are pretty good, (blurred vision etc.) that it "could have been related" to the collision. ;) Getting hit by another skier doesn't necessarily mean the skier that hit her was entirely at fault. >>>>>>> I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in >>>>>>> Washington State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > by another skier doesn't necessarily mean the skier that hit her was > entirely at fault. Well yes, that is correct, but it is not at all germain to the discussion. To refresh, the original assertion was that the impact put her in diabetic shock. That's the only point that has been under discussion. To suggest that low blood sugar might have contributed to the incident is potentially true, but irrelevant. Contributing to is causal, not a result of. The discussion was always about whether impact can cause diabetic shock. The proof was the definition of diabetic shock. There is no other discussion path at that point or any other. There was never any discussion at all about fault. I'm not sure if you followed the entire thread - it appears that you might not have. It would be worth taking a look at it from the beginning. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >>>>>>>> I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in >>>>>>>> Washington State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > that you might not have. It would be worth taking a look at it from the > beginning. LOL, I *did* go back on the thread. I did get you to admit there was at least "casual contributing." <g> Just playing around (and happen to be prone to hypoglycemia so I couldn't resist). Sounds like in addition to paramedic, you are interested in law. >>>>>>>>> I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in >>>>>>>>> Washington State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > prone to hypoglycemia so I couldn't resist). Sounds like in addition to > paramedic, you are interested in law. Maybe you intended the misquote that you did, *or* you didn't understand his precise meaning. He did use the word "causal" and not "casual" - different meaning altogether. (If your misquote was intentional to be funny or something, then ignore this.) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > LOL, I *did* go back on the thread. I did get you to admit there was at > least "casual contributing." No - because neither one of us know if there was. I stuck to one point and one point only. Mine was nothing more than a clarification that diabetic shock is not trauma induced. You tried to get me to say something else, but as I said, everything else is irrelevant. <g> Just playing around (and happen to be > prone to hypoglycemia so I couldn't resist). Sounds like in addition to > paramedic, you are interested in law. Only in staying away from the penalties of it... Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net the original post was about car dealers not diabetic shock > >>>>>>> I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in > >>>>>>> Washington State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > -Mike- > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > the original post was about car dealers not diabetic shock I don't think we should let the thread die...., just yet. There's more milk for sure. Maybe later. >>>>>>>>> I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in >>>>>>>>> Washington State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >> -Mike- >> mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >>>> I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in >>>> Washington State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > shock, it was because she was already at a low blood sugar level. That > though, would make the two incidents unrelated, only coincidental. What you say about diabetic shock is undoubtedly true. However the matter under discussion was that the hospital was unwilling to admit her without cash up front. This, in spite of the fact that the lady had travel insurance that included medical. Steve R. SignatureDue to high levels of spam, all email to this account is being auto deleted. > What you say about diabetic shock is undoubtedly true. However the matter > under discussion was that the hospital was unwilling to admit her without > cash up front. This, in spite of the fact that the lady had travel > insurance that included medical. Damn - I hate it when a thread gets yanked back to its original intent. Don't you know you can give a person whiplash like that Steve? Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> What you say about diabetic shock is undoubtedly true. However the matter >> under discussion was that the hospital was unwilling to admit her without [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Damn - I hate it when a thread gets yanked back to its original intent. > Don't you know you can give a person whiplash like that Steve? Heh, that was *my* plan. I guess its dead now. (famous last words) >>Show me a hospital where that has actually happened. The laws state that >>NO hospital can refuse to treat a patient presenting a life threatening [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>liberals keep forcing more legislation to "help the poor". They seem to >>forget that the TRULY poor already don't pay for a lot of what they get. > I don't know the name of the hospital, but one example was in Washington > State. My sister in laws younger sister was skiing at Mount Baker. Another > person ran into her, and she went into diabetic shock. The hospital would > not admit her, until friends coughed up $700.00 in cash. > > Steve R. If she'd been an illegal alien, they would have been required by law to treat her. So yeah - in that regard our medical system is very screwed up. :) Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > If she'd been an illegal alien, they would have been required by law to > treat her. So yeah - in that regard our medical system is very screwed > up. :) Maybe they are required to treat everybody, but when someone with insurance shows up (presumably a legal resident), the hospital calls the insurance co., which then says "We're not paying" or "We will pay only $x", and the person cannot afford to pay. So what does s/he do? Maybe choose between treatment and bankruptcy. My wife spoke to somebody in the supermarket checkout line this week who was considering filing for bankruptcy because of the family's medical bills. One man a year or two back decided to check up on some of the items on the hospital bills that had led to the loss of house. $78.xx for a "mucus retrieval kit" turned out to be for a box of Kleenex. In the case of an illegal immigrant, the hospital may simply have to write off the debt. Same goes for anyone (even a legal resident) who gives a false address or SSN, I guess. Perce >> If she'd been an illegal alien, they would have been required by law >> to treat her. So yeah - in that regard our medical system is very [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the supermarket checkout line this week who was considering filing for > bankruptcy because of the family's medical bills. The hearings on the recent bankruptcy reform legislation (Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention & Consumer Protection Act of 2005) that was pushed through by lobbyists for the credit industry were televised. In a memorable exchange, a democrat claimed that according to statistics nearly 45% of bankruptcies were caused by medical bills. Senator Hatch of Utah countered that those statistics were incorrect. The actual percentage of bankruptcies caused by medical bills was *only* 25%. Compassionate conservatism in action. Casualties "out of sight, out of mind." >> Steve R. > > If she'd been an illegal alien, they would have been required by law to > treat her. So yeah - in that regard our medical system is very screwed > up. :) He didn't say they wouldn't treat her - he said they wouldn't admit her. It's the same thing for illegal aliens. They won't admit them either without some $$$$. >>>Steve R. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's the same thing for illegal aliens. They won't admit them either > without some $$$$. If they're here illegally, and they are able to travel (i.e. non-emergency), transport them to a hospital of their home nation, and add them to the list of illegals that are to be prosecuted if they show up here again in an illegal status. If it's an emergency, treat them, get them well enough to travel, transport them home, bill their home nation, and add them to the list of illegals that are to be prosecuted if they show up here again in an illegal status.. But don't bump up the bills of legal citizens to pay for their stealing the services that we pay for. Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x') > >>>>> I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. > >>>> Everyone in Canada has basic universal health care. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Steve R. If she was an illegal alien she would have had no problem. Signature"What do you mean there's no movie?" >>>>> I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. >>>> Everyone in Canada has basic universal health care. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > in the US provide FREE to people. There is a LOT and it is growing all > the time with all the illegals and welfare changes being made. News item: (June 27th, 2007) Prosecutors filed civil complaints on Tuesday accusing two hospitals and a transportation services firm of dumping homeless patients in downtown Los Angeles, including one highly publicized case in which a paraplegic man wearing a colostomy bag was found crawling in a gutter near a skid row park in February. The complaints by the L.A. city attorney's office against Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center in Los Feliz and Methodist Hospital in Arcadia are related to four separate incidents of alleged patient dumping — two by each hospital — over a 14-month period. > Also look at how many hospitals are being closed down by the states they > are in. In this area alone there have been 6 closed in the past 2 years. WHY? > Because the liberals keep forcing more legislation to "help the poor". This sounds like a case of "crooked thinking." > They seem to forget that the TRULY poor already don't pay for a lot of > what they get. I'm afraid to ask what your ideas are for the "TRULY poor." Firing squad? >>> I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. >> Everyone in Canada has basic universal health care. > Right, but a friend of mine died while waiting for surgery that was > postponed for over a year. Like others, he was going to come to the US for > it, but waited too long. It is not a perfect system. It's easy enough to compare the US system with the Canadian system because Canada is right next door and there is plenty of travel between the two. No system is perfect, and the Canadian system certainly has had its share of problems, but Canada's universal health care system is not the only one in the world. I know that my late parents' health care in UK went from being cheap to being free (not to mention that their dr. made house calls, and they got a non-means-tested allowance for a home help to come cook and clean for them), and an Australian businessman I talked to a while ago was horrified to hear how much we are paying for health insurance; in Australia it's a mere 2.5% surcharge on one's taxable income. And in the US, even having health insurance doesn't guarantee that the insurance co. will pay. And what happens when an employer decides to switch health plans and "my" physician doesn't participate in the new plan, or the new plan doesn't cover my specific medications? Perce if your elected officials had to pay for health care( in full )then i can assure you folks we would have greeat low cost health care insurance for ALL > >>> I'm not so sure the Canadian system is any better. > >> Everyone in Canada has basic universal health care. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Perce >> I always figured that Canada and the USA were so close together in many >> areas [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > countries have been going separate paths in some areas, such as in > health care and war. We always did! Steve R. SignatureDue to high levels of spam, all email to this account is being auto deleted. > buy american the job you save just might be your own > in my book buying asian is right up there with treason regardless of who makes > a better product. Personally, I believe that we are all God's children, regardless of the color of our skin or which land mass we live on. Furthermore, I don't believe in rewarding people for shoddy work. If someone makes a better product, regardless of where it is made, we should buy the better product. We don't owe anyone a job, not even the people who live in Detroit. > i bet you won't support the troops either! I don't believe that our troops should have even been in Iraq, but I support the troops. > i can't wait till you have to pay those repairs and see how many folks won't > touch them and the ones that do charge accordingly Really? Why do you wish ill will against anyone? Jeff >>> i was referring to the four cylinder engine >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Corvette. After riding in my Sonata, he's heading out to the Hyundai dealer >> also. > buy american the job you save just might be your own > in my book buying asian is right up there with treason regardless of who > makes > a better product.i bet you won't support the troops either! > i can't wait till you have to pay those repairs and see how many folks won't > touch them and the ones that do charge accordingly What is an American vehicle? A big 3 vehicle built anywhere, including those GM Korean built cars? A big 3 vehicle built within NAFTA (American)- USA, Canada, Mexico? A big 3 vehicle built in the USA (some say America)? "Just Facts" <Jfact@intnet.wrld> wrote in message > What is an American vehicle? > A big 3 vehicle built anywhere, including those GM Korean built cars? > A big 3 vehicle built within NAFTA (American)- USA, Canada, Mexico? > A big 3 vehicle built in the USA (some say America)? How about Asian owned but the car built by American employed in USA plants that buy from a lot of USA suppliers? This morning's paper had an article about Honda building a new plant in Indiana. They buy billions of dollars from hundreds of US suppliers. I don't hear the same squawking about the foreign owned gas companies and grocery chains. Some of the largest groceries are owned by British, German, and Dutch companies. > wait till that hyundi timing belt breaks and the valves bend since it is a > interference motor they won't warranty that Oye! Where to start? First off, Edwin's Hyundai does not have a timing belt - it has a timing chain. Next, if it did have a belt and the belt broke within the recommended change interval, Hyundai most certainly would apply whatever warranty was in force at the time. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net a timing belt on a hyundi is a maintance item to be done at 60 k and it will break at about 70k and it will bend valves and the dealer will tell you flat out you failed to properly maintain you vehicle by not changing it so the engine work is not covered thats what i keep hearing from people coming into the shop at work at > > wait till that hyundi timing belt breaks and the valves bend since it is a > > interference motor they won't warranty that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > -Mike- > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >a timing belt on a hyundi is a maintance item to be done at 60 k and it >will [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > work is not covered > thats what i keep hearing from people coming into the shop at work at That sound reasonable. There is a reason you should change the belt, change the oil, and do regular maintenance. Ignoring it is similar to ignoring any rules, you pay in the end, often dearly. Just like crossing the street on a red light, you may make it, you may get run over, but you have been told the right way to cross at some point. As an owner of an expensive item, reading the manual and following the instructions is always a good idea. >a timing belt on a hyundi is a maintance item to be done at 60 k and it >will [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > work is not covered > thats what i keep hearing from people coming into the shop at work at It's worth checking into things instead of just listening to people. Yes - Hyundai will tell you to pound salt if your timing belt breaks at 70K - but that's because the owner's manual very clearly requires it to be changed at 60K. Nothing wrong with that. That's not what you posted below though. They don't regularly break at 70K either. They've been known to regularly go over 100K. Regardless, this is not unique to Hyundai. Every manufacturer with an interference engine had the same requirements. That said - many if not all of Hyundai's engines use chains now instead of belts. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> > wait till that hyundi timing belt breaks and the valves bend since it >> > is a >> > interference motor they won't warranty that |
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