Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / June 2008
Repeatedly Running On A Low Tank?
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Don't Taze Me, Bro! - 02 Jun 2008 11:12 GMT Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,361347,00.html
Not because you could run out of gas and get stranded but because repeatedly running on low tends to ruin the fuel pump.
mjc13<REMOVETHIS> - 02 Jun 2008 11:28 GMT > Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead > of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Not because you could run out of gas and get stranded but because repeatedly > running on low tends to ruin the fuel pump. While Fox "News" might on occasion slip and let a fact slip through their filters, I wouldn't count on it. We've been running our cars down to 1/4 or even 1/8 of a tank on a regular basis for 25 years, and have never had a fuel pump fail. I just sold my 1986 Civic Si with the original pump. It's much more important to replace the fuel filter at the recommended interval.
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 00:38 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, >> instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to 1/4 or even 1/8 of a tank on a regular basis for 25 years, and have > never had a fuel pump fail... Same here. My daily driver Chrysler Concorde just turned 200k miles last week from its 80 mile/day commute. I run it as low as I can before filling up each time at the filling station across the street from my house - typically with the gage anywhere from 3/16 tank to below 'E'. Original fuel pump.
> I just sold my 1986 Civic Si with the > original pump. It's much more important to replace the fuel filter at > the recommended interval. The Chrysler LH car fuel filter is built into the sender/pump/regulator assembly - tank would have to be dropped to replace it. But they are designed to last longer than the vehicle (barring getting some really bad/dirty gas) - no replacement interval specified - and judging from the total lack of fuel filter problems mentioned on the forums, they did a good job on the design.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Bill Putney - 02 Jun 2008 11:34 GMT > Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead > of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Not because you could run out of gas and get stranded but because repeatedly > running on low tends to ruin the fuel pump. I see that thing about running low on fuel damaging fuel pumps posted all over the internet, but personally I think that's total b.s.
All the critical parts in the fuel pump - bearings (bushings), armature, brushes/commutator, pumping elements (vanes, rotors, or rollers) - are constantly bathed in the fuel as it flows thru the pump. That lubricates and cools the parts regardless of fuel level in the tank.
With regulator bypass pumping/circulation that modern cars have, there is full volume of fuel going thru the pump at all times it is running regardless of engine demand. The only effect of low fuel in the tank is a slight temperature rise of the volume of fuel in the tank (due to same electrical power dissipated in the pump being absorbed by less mass of fuel), and that rise will be very small - power used by fuel pump is small - temperature rise of the fuel in the tank and the tank itself will be very small - lots of mass compared to the power being dissipated.
*BUT* - again - the fuel is constantly flowing thru and around all internal components of the pump whenever it is running providing cooling (unless you actually run out and the engine stops - but that is a different scenario altogether, and even then, the pump will still be full of fuel at that point with a full column of fuel from its lowest end to the fuel rail - only the pickup will be filled with air, and there won't be any flow - and most cars turn the pump off when the computer senses that the engine is no longer running).
If anyone wants to argue this, be sure of your facts beforehand - I used to design automotive fuel pump components.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
C. E. White - 02 Jun 2008 13:00 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below >> halfway, instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') As I understand it this concern mostly applies to older systems that included a return line, not more modern systems that use returnless systems and variable delivery pumps. The concern is that continually running with low fuel levels can lead to the fuel temperatures becoming much hotter than desirable. Older systems with a return line pumped much more fuel than necessary to the engine compartment - particularly during low speed / low power operation. The excess fuel is diverted back to the pump at the pressure regulator under the hood through the return line. However, this process of pumping the fuel to the front of the car, through the hot engine compartment, and through the pressure regulator heats the fuel. With a full tank, the warmer fuel being returned to the tank only changes the overall temperature of the fuel in the tank slightly. However, when the tank is nearly empty, the hot fuel coming from the return line has a much greater effect on the average temperature of the fuel in the tank. Repeatedly running the tank with low fuel levels results in a much higher average fuel temperature, particularly in hot climates. Higher pump operating temperatures can shorten the life of the pump. I can't say how much hotter the fuel can get, or how much this can shorten the life of the pump, but I do understand the theory. I suspect it was much more of a problem 20 years ago than now. I know my Sister, a chronic low tank driver, had to replace two in-tank fuel pumps on her mid 80's car, but her late 90's car never had a problem.
And even if the fuel never get so hot so as to contribute to a pump failure directly, running around with very low fuel levels can lead to running out of fuel altogether, which is definitely not good for the fuel pump.
Here are some interesting references:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_199807/ai_n8795921 http://www.autocarepronews.com/default.aspx?type=art&id=82095& http://www.athomemechanic.com/archives/2005/06/keep_your_fuel.html http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080513130941AATbVqN
Ed
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 01:03 GMT >>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, >>> instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > included a return line, not more modern systems that use returnless > systems and variable delivery pumps... Hmm - are they variable delivery pumps, *OR* do they dump the excess back into the tank immediately from the regulator outlet (IOW - just like a recirc system, but with a very short (translation: No) loop to the engine compartment.
Serious question: Are there actually many cars with a variable delivery pump like you described, or they in fact actually like I describe in that the excess dumps back into the tank instead of first circulating thru a loop to the engine compartment like both my Chrysler LH cars do?
> The concern is that continually > running with low fuel levels can lead to the fuel temperatures becoming [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > through the hot engine compartment, and through the pressure regulator > heats the fuel... Good point - I had not considered that (picking up heat from the engine compartment in the older circ loop).
> With a full tank, the warmer fuel being returned to the > tank only changes the overall temperature of the fuel in the tank [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > understand the theory. I suspect it was much more of a problem 20 years > ago than now... Similar to what I described in my previous post. Again, I maintain that the temp. rise even with only 2 or 3 gallons of fuel in the tank (along with the mass of the tank acting as a radiator dumping some of the heat into the outside air) is of little consequence to fuel pump longevity.
> I know my Sister, a chronic low tank driver, had to > replace two in-tank fuel pumps on her mid 80's car, but her late 90's > car never had a problem. Makes sense with the later elimination of the engine compartment loop as you described. Of course one of the reasons they did that was to reduce likelihood of vapor lock due to ever-rising engine compartment temps. - the consant recirc. helped keep fuel rail temps. down (while - as you pointed out) slightly raising the temps. in the tank from the return.
> And even if the fuel never get so hot so as to contribute to a pump > failure directly, running around with very low fuel levels can lead to > running out of fuel altogether, which is definitely not good for the > fuel pump. Not as bad as you might think. The pumping section of the pump is at the bottom end of the pump assembly, so worst-case, air would hit the pumping blades (or whatever type of pumping section the particular pump has), and the fuel would still be completely filling the pump internals - but - yeah - no flow for added cooling. But only lasts for a breif period until the engine stops running and the computer shuts the pump off. So - again - even running completely out is not as bad as you might first imagine.
> Here are some interesting references: > > http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3828/is_199807/ai_n8795921 > http://www.autocarepronews.com/default.aspx?type=art&id=82095& > http://www.athomemechanic.com/archives/2005/06/keep_your_fuel.html > http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080513130941AATbVqN No real problems with those links - except the last one: "if you werent so broke, you could afford to not wait that long. yes its true, especially for people who put only 5$ in their tank. since its always low, it could rupture your gas tank from overheating. this happened to the old hustlers down the street. they dont know how to take care of anything." Sorry - that is pathetic. :)
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Elle - 02 Jun 2008 16:05 GMT > *BUT* - again - the fuel is constantly flowing thru and > around all internal components of the pump whenever it is [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > cars turn the pump off when the computer senses that the > engine is no longer running). "most"? I would think you would want to err on the side of safety and not inconveniencing a driver with a sudden pump breakdown.
Barring presentation of a study showing no detrimental effects of either regularly running on a very low tank or running to empty, I think not doing these things is easy enough and indeed an investment that costs one only a litle extra time getting gas over the life of the car. If possibly burdening the pump by forcing it to move air is not really a problem, then I remain concerned about dirt in the bottom of the tank clogging the filter and lines downstream of the pump prematurely, or possibly wearing mechanical parts on the pump, causing the pump to have to work harder, meaning it draws more current, aging electrical parts more quickly, etc.
Does rust accumulate in fuel tanks? If so, does running it near empty hasten the buildup of rust?
What are the leading causes of fuel pump failure? If it's "age," what exactly causes aging to accelerate?
I do not want your speculation. I am well experienced in pump design myself. I want facts from a study of pump failure.
rigger - 02 Jun 2008 16:39 GMT > > *BUT* - again - the fuel is constantly flowing thru and > > around all internal components of the pump whenever it is [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > pump design myself. I want facts from a study of pump > failure. If you don't mind me breaking in to ask a question?
How hot would the fuel need to become in order to accelerate the breakdown of the materials used in the fuel pumps you're familiar with? In my mind I can't imagine most materials responding in a neg- ative manner unless temperatures reach very high levels (over 200 deg. F?) as I'd imagine they are chosen for temperature resistance, among other things.
dennis in nca
Elle - 02 Jun 2008 17:35 GMT "rigger" <dgrup@aol.com> wrote On Jun 2, 8:05 am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@spamnocox.net> wrote:
> Barring presentation of a study showing no detrimental > effects of either regularly running on a very low tank or [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > quickly, > etc. snip
>>How hot would the fuel need to >>become in order to accelerate the >breakdown of the materials used in >>the fuel pumps you're familiar with? In my mind I can't imagine most materials responding in a neg- ative manner unless temperatures reach very high levels (over 200 deg. F?) as I'd imagine they are chosen for temperature resistance, among other things.
I agree. I would not expect an increased fuel temperature (due, say, to the pump recircing from a low fuel tank) will have a noticeable effect on pump part wear, one because I do not expect the temperature increase to be much (as Bill indicated) and two because I think the materials are durable enough, as you wrote.
I am also concerned about how the fuel's sloshing, particularly when the vehicle is turning, could tend to starve the pump, making it work harder blah blah. Granted this would have to be at very low levels. The sloshing is certainly enough that I see my 91 Civic's fuel gage go lower on left turns; higher on right turns; when the gage reads below about 1/3 tank.
Way too much argues against driving to or near an empty tank.
I am speaking of electric fuel pumps, by the way, which are what are used on cars with fuel injection. So anyone having an older, carbureted car likely has a mechanical fuel pump and will have somewhat different concerns.
mjc13<REMOVETHIS> - 02 Jun 2008 21:44 GMT > "rigger" <dgrup@aol.com> wrote > On Jun 2, 8:05 am, "Elle" <honda.lion...@spamnocox.net> [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > an older, carbureted car likely has a mechanical fuel pump > and will have somewhat different concerns. Just to be clear: the cars I mentioned all have/had electric fuel pumps.
Grumpy AuContraire - 03 Jun 2008 02:19 GMT snip
> I am speaking of electric fuel pumps, by the way, which are > what are used on cars with fuel injection. So anyone having > an older, carbureted car likely has a mechanical fuel pump > and will have somewhat different concerns. Honda Civics went to electric pumps beginning with the 1980 model year but it was external right outside the tank. I have never heard of a fuel pump failure with these units.
Even after setting idle for nearly 12 years, the one in my '83 works perfectly.
JT
Elle - 03 Jun 2008 02:41 GMT > Elle wrote: >> I am speaking of electric fuel pumps, by the way, which [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > 1980 model year but it was external right outside the > tank. How'd you know this little factoid so quickly?! I believe you, just saying that's way inside information.
> I have never heard of a fuel pump failure with these > units. Hm, unless you worked on Hondas of that vintage for a few years, I am not sure I can support a hypothesis that pumps of this vintage do not fail.
> Even after setting idle for nearly 12 years, the one in my > '83 works perfectly. Yeabut you don't run to empty/"on fumes" (as they say), do you?
Those of you attesting that the article's thesis is bunk may be right. Just saying fuel pumps do fail; more authoritative sources than Fox make the same claim the Fox article does (which is pretty darn general; look back); and those of you saying, 'Ain't never seen a fuel pump failure in my guzillion years of drivin' ' just do not run the car to empty enough or do not leave your fuel filter unchanged long enough to have a problem.
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 02:49 GMT > ...Just saying fuel pumps do fail; more authoritative > sources than Fox make the same claim the Fox article does > (which is pretty darn general; look back);.. As time goes on, I believe lees and less of what I read because much of what I see reported that I have first-hand knowledge of I know to be absolute b.s.
> and those of you > saying, 'Ain't never seen a fuel pump failure in my > guzillion years of drivin' ' just do not run the car to > empty enough or do not leave your fuel filter unchanged long > enough to have a problem. My '99 Concorde just rolled over 200k miles - original fuel filter (as it is designed to last the life of the car), and I routinely run it as low as it will go before filling up on my 80 mile daily commute - almost always between 3/16 and below 'E'. Yeah - I know - a sample of one. But that is lifelong habit - have never had a fuel pump fail in over 40 years of driving/DIY'ing.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
mjc13<REMOVETHIS> - 02 Jun 2008 21:43 GMT >>*BUT* - again - the fuel is constantly flowing thru and >>around all internal components of the pump whenever it is [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > pump design myself. I want facts from a study of pump > failure. It isn't a study, but my post about my experiences involves quite a few cars over several decades, and one car for 22 years. It also includes another car over 9 years. I stand by what I wrote.
Elle - 02 Jun 2008 21:55 GMT "mjc13<REMOVETHIS> @verizon.net>" <"mjc13<REMOVETHIS> Elle wrote:
>> I do not want your speculation. I am well experienced in >> pump design myself. I want facts from a study of pump [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > car for 22 years. It also includes another car over 9 > years. I stand by what I wrote. Well I happen to think anecdotal experiences in certain areas, like this one, count for a lot as "data." I think maybe we can further observe that we just do not see many fuel pump failure reports here, for one. They certainly do happen, but not that often. Many factors must go into what determines fuel pump life. Maybe 1/8 tank and more is just not going to burden the pump in any significant way. Maybe the climate makes a big difference in fuel pump rate failure. E.g. climates that have a lot moisture in the air will tend to promote more rust in the fuel tank than if the climate were dry. Maybe some pump manufacturers go cheap on parts, so a chip of rust passing through the pump means it's more likely to cause the pump to fail.
From talk on the net, it does seem to me that debris accumulating at the bottom of fuel tanks is not uncommon. And why have a fuel filter whose changing is prescribed to be every few years, besides, if the debris is no concern? So too do we see reports of fuel tanks failing.
I do not think the OP's article is baloney. It's just suggested best operating practices to minimize fuel system problems, ISTM. Not a big deal.
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 02:06 GMT > ...E.g. climates that have a lot moisture in the air > will tend to promote more rust in the fuel tank than if the > climate were dry... Not that much of a problem these days with sealed tanks.
> From talk on the net, it does seem to me that debris > accumulating at the bottom of fuel tanks is not uncommon. > And why have a fuel filter whose changing is prescribed to > be every few years, besides, if the debris is no concern? So > too do we see reports of fuel tanks failing... FWIW, Chrysler LH cars have life-of-vehicle fuel filters, and apparently they are effective (very few posts on LH forums for fuel filter issues).
> I do not think the OP's article is baloney. It's just > suggested best operating practices to minimize fuel system > problems, ISTM. Not a big deal. I do not agree that the article is not baloney, but I agree that it's not a big deal.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Elle - 03 Jun 2008 02:38 GMT > Elle wrote: >> ...E.g. climates that have a lot moisture in the air will >> tend to promote more rust in the fuel tank than if the >> climate were dry... > > Not that much of a problem these days with sealed tanks. Bill, the article is addressing all the saps too poor to keep their gas tanks full. You really think they're all driving cars with a model year later than about 1998, when fuel tanks were going plastic? :-)
(I am just guestimating the year plastic became really popular, based on googling on the subject.)
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 01:44 GMT >> *BUT* - again - the fuel is constantly flowing thru and >> around all internal components of the pump whenever it is [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > safety and not inconveniencing a driver with a sudden pump > breakdown. The designs are not that thermally marginal to worry about. I am being facetious when I say you should only drive your car in the rain to maximize cooling of your tires, but it illustrates my point that it isn't worth worrying about.
> Barring presentation of a study showing no detrimental > effects of either regularly running on a very low tank or [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > it draws more current, aging electrical parts more quickly, > etc. I can't argue with that.
> Does rust accumulate in fuel tanks? If so, does running it > near empty hasten the buildup of rust? Not in today's sealed (and sometimes plastic) tanks.
> What are the leading causes of fuel pump failure? If it's > "age," what exactly causes aging to accelerate? Wear of the bearings (which for most pumps are actually plastic holes in pump/motor end caps (basically, plastic bushings) and wear of the brushes.
Usually the plastic end caps (that act as the bearings for the armature shaft) are glass filled. The molded bearing (bushing) surfaces have a microscopically thin film of plastic separating the glass fibers from the metal shaft - an inherent result of the molding process of glass-filled plastics. Once that thin film wears thru, the very abrasive glass wears the metal shaft faster than the plastic itself wears believe it or not (I learned this when I worked as a designer/engineer/manager for a supplier of fuel pump parts to GM/Delphi and Ford/Visteon. Once there is significant play between the shaft and the bearings/bushings, the armature literally rattles around and eventually crashes into the magnets (also the pumping section is mounted on the shaft, so its close-clearance parts start rubbing against/hitting each other, depending somewhat on the type of pumping section - gerotor, turbine, moving vane, etc.).
Sulfur in fuel of third world countries is a big corrosion problem for fuel pumps.
Presence of silicone compounds greatly shortens brush life.
The interconnecting wires can break from vibration - like if they have a nick, and the car goes over a railroad track often - vibration and the notch effect don't go well together.
IIRC, brush compounds have to be specifically designed to handle large concentrations of ethanol (I may not be 100% correct on this point - been out of that field for 7 years)).
I do know that sometimes metal film plastic capacitors (for EMI suppression) will be destroyed by alcohol in the fuel (alcohol molecules are so small, you can't keep them from leaching onto the capacitor and etching away the metal film. When that happens, the capacitor is no longer a capacitor - EMI problems).
I'd say the shaft/bushing wear is the biggest common cause of failure (intermittent) - it's why a pump in the process of failing can often can be heard rattling. Next would be worn out brushes - also intermittent (temperature- and shock/vibration-dependent), but noiseless, but brushes are usually over-designed as far as life (length).
> I do not want your speculation. I am well experienced in > pump design myself. I want facts from a study of pump > failure. Perhaps I shed some light for you with some of my comments. Certainly I do not have anywhere near exhaustive knowledge of the subject.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Elle - 03 Jun 2008 03:02 GMT > Elle wrote: >> What are the leading causes of fuel pump failure? If it's [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > when I worked as a designer/engineer/manager for a > supplier of fuel pump parts to GM/Delphi and Ford/Visteon. I appreciate the context of how you gleaned this information.
All I know (from google) is that a company called "Taishing Electric Machine Company" apparently made a number of Honda models' fuel pumps for a certain time period. I could not even locate the material of which the pump rotor is made. Probably a bit too proprietary/specialized for net discussion and reports.
So of course other questions arise, like whether GM/Delphi and Ford/Visteon used the same pump manufacturer as Toyota, or Nissan, or Honda yada; does pumping debris from the bottom of the tank clog things up requiring the pump to work harder and so burdening the bearing surfaces of which you speak; and so on.
Not saying you're wrong. Just saying I am not so sure the article's simple claim that "perpetually running on fumes can damage a car's fuel pump" is disproved by your contentions, which I agree do shed light on some of the issues here. Yours seems to be sound experience. I know you know it is. Just opining with my humble stamp of approval, worth less than the paper this is not written on. :-)
> Once there is significant play between the shaft and the > bearings/bushings, the armature literally rattles around > and eventually crashes into the snip for brevity
> Perhaps I shed some light for you with some of my > comments. Certainly I do not have anywhere near > exhaustive knowledge of the subject. I appreciate the humility, though it may not be warranted. My pump design experience is not specialized to fuel pumps but to a number of marine applications.
I found these interesting: http://www.carterfueldelivery.com/fuelpumps/pdf/support/TEC1620.pdf
http://www.tomorrowstechnician.com/Content/Site301/SmartProducts/CommonCausesofE _00000002018.pdf
Not to challenge your authority but more for the interested readers here to ponder. The articles at the links above certainly can be challenged in a number of ways. They may be dated, for one.
jim beam - 03 Jun 2008 03:27 GMT >> Elle wrote: >>> What are the leading causes of fuel pump failure? If it's [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > certainly can be challenged in a number of ways. They may be > dated, for one. most of the fear and irrational b.s. that creates fuel pump legend is that of ancient scroll pump failures. most modern pumps don't have them, so they don't fail through fuel-related causes, only the kinds of quality issues that plague anything detroit. misattribution is the stuff of usenet however...
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 11:13 GMT >> Elle wrote: >>> What are the leading causes of fuel pump failure? If it's [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Probably a bit too proprietary/specialized for net > discussion and reports. When I worked in the industry, the North American car manufacturers generally used different fuel pump manufacturers than the Japanese cars. I doubt that that statement holds much validity anymore, and I can't say with any certainty how purely true that was even then as I was only involved in certain pumps for certain Ford and GM platforms.
> So of course other questions arise, like whether GM/Delphi > and Ford/Visteon used the same pump manufacturer as Toyota, > or Nissan, or Honda yada; does pumping debris from the > bottom of the tank clog things up requiring the pump to work > harder and so burdening the bearing surfaces of which you > speak; and so on. Depends somewhat on the type of pumping section. Each type of pump has advantages and disadvantages, such as pressure volume capabilities, noise (which is a problem for roller vanes pumps if a vehicle is supposed to be particularly quiet), tolerance to small and large particle contamination, and tolerance to that bearing wear/shaft wobble (again, having mostly due to pumping element clearance requirements or lack thereof), of course cost to manufacture, and certainly many other things I don't know about or simply haven't thought of. A turbine type pump would be less subject to particle contamination than close or zero clearance types such as gerotor or roller vane. For the record, my experience was primarily with gerotor pumps.
I will repeat that with sealed tanks today, it is less of a problem. There's always risk from picking up trash from the bottom of a service stations tanks, but one of the by-products with the concern for not releasing volatiles into the atmosphere is that their systems too are now much more protected and closed/sealed - less subject to dirt, rust, condensation/moisture.
> Not saying you're wrong. Just saying I am not so sure the > article's simple claim that "perpetually running on fumes [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > know it is. Just opining with my humble stamp of approval, > worth less than the paper this is not written on. :-) I concede that there will be certainly be higher temperatures overall with lower tank fuel levels. As Mr. White pointed out, with today's cars not having recirc. systems, there is no heat picked up and returned to the tank from the engine compartment. FWIW - the pump itself adds about 75 watts worth of heat to everything. That's not much heat when distributed over the mass of a few gallons of fuel and tank material, with the exposed outer surface area of the tank also acting as a radiator to the ambient air. But yes - certainly there will be *some* temp. rise with less fuel in the tank. Let's say it's 5°F. Is that enough to reduce the life of the pump to any significant degree? What if it's 10°F? ...20°F?
It would be neat to see an article reporting the actual temp. increase measured inside in the tank and inside the pump with full tank vs. half full down to 2 or 3 gallons total in the tank from someone having instrumented a "typical" vehicle. With all the warnings about it, you'd think *someone* would have published such a study. Why is that not the case? Makes me suspicious of the warnings that are repeated by people who haven't a clue. Telltale signs of an urban legend maybe?
>> Once there is significant play between the shaft and the >> bearings/bushings, the armature literally rattles around [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > certainly can be challenged in a number of ways. They may be > dated, for one. Interesting articles. Yes - the warnings about rust may be not be as warranted today as they used to be. But how could you leave that out of a bulletized list as a precaution to the service technician?
Thanks for the discussion!
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
jim beam - 03 Jun 2008 14:12 GMT >>> Elle wrote: >>>> What are the leading causes of fuel pump failure? If it's "age," [quoted text clipped - 51 lines] > now much more protected and closed/sealed - less subject to dirt, rust, > condensation/moisture. i had to replace the fuel tank on my civic a while back after some denting was fouling the float travel. on disposal of the old one, about 17 years vintage, i had the opportunity to drain and inspect. there was a very little particulate matter in there, mostly metallic pump nozzle scrapings, but you'd have had a hard time filling a thimble with it. and no corrosion whatsoever. certainly nothing to cause any problem with the filter sock.
>> Not saying you're wrong. Just saying I am not so sure the article's >> simple claim that "perpetually running on fumes can damage a car's [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > case? Makes me suspicious of the warnings that are repeated by people > who haven't a clue. no! say that can't be so!
> Telltale signs of an urban legend maybe? and without it, there would be 90% less usenet traffic.
>>> Once there is significant play between the shaft and the >>> bearings/bushings, the armature literally rattles around and [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 23:21 GMT >> It would be neat to see an article reporting the actual temp. increase >> measured inside in the tank and inside the pump with full tank vs. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > no! say that can't be so!
:)
>> Telltale signs of an urban legend maybe? > > and without it, there would be 90% less usenet traffic. Well - that, global warming, and K&N air filters. :)
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
hachiroku - 05 Jun 2008 14:04 GMT >>> Telltale signs of an urban legend maybe? >> >> and without it, there would be 90% less usenet traffic. > > Well - that, global warming, and K&N air filters. I dunno about the K&N filters...
I had a '95 Tercel, and got a cold air intake for it for $50. Now, I didn't put a K&N on it, but it was a similar filter, and my gas mileage went from ~40 to ~45 MPG. And I did notice a better throttle response off the line, too.
Bill Putney - 05 Jun 2008 23:24 GMT >>>> Telltale signs of an urban legend maybe? >>> and without it, there would be 90% less usenet traffic. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > went from ~40 to ~45 MPG. And I did notice a better throttle response off > the line, too. And more dirt was ingested by the engine, which is OK as long as you realize the tradeoffs in making the decision to use it. Problem is, most people believe the advertising hype but are ignorant of its inferior dirt-catching qualities.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Hachiroku ハチロク - 06 Jun 2008 04:43 GMT >> I dunno about the K&N filters... >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > people believe the advertising hype but are ignorant of its inferior > dirt-catching qualities. I don't know about that...
If you read the instructions, you soak the filter with oil before installing it. The oil helps the material catch dirt.
I had an old Yamaha MC that had a foam and oil filter, and it was a dirt bike to boot. At about 50,000 miles I tore the engine down, bored and honed and fitted a new piston and rings. There wasn't a lot of wear, and most of what was there was from being a 2 stroke.
The key is keeping the filter oiled. Their recommendation was 12 months or 12,000 miles, I did it every other oil change (as Dim beam can tell you, every 6,000 miles...)
I would also remove the tube and have a look, and it was no dirtier than the stock air box.
jim beam - 06 Jun 2008 06:42 GMT >>> I dunno about the K&N filters... >>> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > bike to boot. At about 50,000 miles I tore the engine down, bored and > honed and fitted a new piston and rings. There wasn't a lot of wear, subjective waffle. define. quantify.
> and > most of what was there was from being a 2 stroke. no, 2-stroke does not necessarily mean wear.
> The key is keeping the filter oiled. 1. the pores remain the same size, regardless of oil content. that defines particle size.
2. oil filters let though more dirt as the flow rate increases. that's why paper filters are used so much these days - filtration remains the same regardless of flow rate.
> Their recommendation was 12 months or > 12,000 miles, I did it every other oil change (as Dim beam can tell you, > every 6,000 miles...) > > I would also remove the tube and have a look, and it was no dirtier than > the stock air box. that's not quantitative.
hachiroku - 06 Jun 2008 15:15 GMT >> I had an old Yamaha MC that had a foam and oil filter, and it was a dirt >> bike to boot. At about 50,000 miles I tore the engine down, bored and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > no, 2-stroke does not necessarily mean wear. Oh, sure it doesn't. That's why they have to be torn down and honed occasionally.
>> The key is keeping the filter oiled. > > 1. the pores remain the same size, regardless of oil content. that > defines particle size. The oil traps the finer particles. That why Yamamha used this system on their dirt bikes. It allowed performance without sacrificing the engine.
Of course, you had to maintain the filter on a regular basis. They gave a recommendation as to how often to check the filter. I checked the filter more often than recommended, and cleaned it more often than recommended. Most people would follow the recommendation. Of course, some would have the filter analyzed and then go double the manufacturer's recommendation.
> 2. oil filters let though more dirt as the flow rate increases. that's > why paper filters are used so much these days - filtration remains the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > that's not quantitative. No, it's preventative.
I was talking to a maintenance guy at a State Police barracks the other day. He said they change the oil in the cruisers every 3,000 miles. I said, but those are mostly high-speed, highway miles. Isn't that kind of driving better for the motors and the oil?
Sure, but we would rather do PM and make sure the cars are OK than have to tear an engine down and replace a lot of parts. It's cheaper and easier to just change the oil every 3,000 miles.
What do you think of someone who changes his oil every 12,000 miles based on a couple of analysis?
That guy's a fool...
jim beam - 07 Jun 2008 03:33 GMT >>> I had an old Yamaha MC that had a foam and oil filter, and it was a dirt >>> bike to boot. At about 50,000 miles I tore the engine down, bored and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Oh, sure it doesn't. That's why they have to be torn down and honed > occasionally. but so do 4-strokes!!!
>>> The key is keeping the filter oiled. >> 1. the pores remain the same size, regardless of oil content. that >> defines particle size. > > The oil traps the finer particles. That why Yamamha used this system on > their dirt bikes. It allowed performance without sacrificing the engine. no, it's because it's cheap, and buyers [you] evidently don't know any better.
and oil soaked foam is not an effective filter. i have a book with some particle throughput vs. flow rate tables in it somewhere. particle size and volumes increase with flow rate. that's bad. i might scan it when i get back from vacation. or you could use google. [!]
> Of course, you had to maintain the filter on a regular basis. They gave a > recommendation as to how often to check the filter. I checked the filter [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > No, it's preventative. eh? "have a look" is not quantitative. or preventative.
> I was talking to a maintenance guy at a State Police barracks the other > day. He said they change the oil in the cruisers every 3,000 miles. I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > That guy's a fool... that's right, science means nothing!!!
Hachiroku ハチロク - 07 Jun 2008 05:52 GMT >> What do you think of someone who changes his oil every 12,000 miles >> based on a couple of analysis? >> >> That guy's a fool... > > that's right, science means nothing!!! Not at all. Science is great. I hear they're working on brain transplants. I'd take a look into it if I were you...
C. E. White - 09 Jun 2008 18:44 GMT > The oil traps the finer particles. That why Yamamha used this system on > their dirt bikes. It allowed performance without sacrificing the engine. Oiled foam filters and oiled gauze filters are not equivalent. You can't apply the experience with one to another. .....
> I was talking to a maintenance guy at a State Police barracks the other > day. He said they change the oil in the cruisers every 3,000 miles. I [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > tear an engine down and replace a lot of parts. It's cheaper and easier to > just change the oil every 3,000 miles. Police cars spend a lot of time idling....exactly the sort of condition that should trigger more frequent oil changes. The normal maintenance schedule assumes a direct relationship between the number of miles traveled and number of engine revolutions. Any activity that involves a lot of idling drastically changes this relationship.
> What do you think of someone who changes his oil every 12,000 miles based > on a couple of analysis? Big trucks do things like that all the time. My last GM car included an oil life monitor. Initially I did not trust it, but I once went almost 7500 miles before I changed the oil (the light never came on). I sent the oil off for analysis and the analysis that came back indicated the oil was still in good condition and certainly could have gone another 3000 miles. Given today's oils and engines, I think 3000 miles is a ridiculously conservative oil change interval for most drivers. Oil change places keep promoting excessive oil changes by misstating the severe service requirements published by most manufacturers. I think Toyota did the right thing when they eliminated the normal / severe service schedules and just went to a 5K across the board schedule. My Nissan has a 7.5K normal, 5K severe service schedule,but I usually just stick with the 5K schedule (simpler). My Ford has a 5K/3K schedule, but I also stick to the 5K schedule for it. I am not doing anything that would remotely qualify as severe service. My SO and Sister but have RAV4's. These vehicles have a 5K maintenance indicator light, which is very convenient. It is not as nice as the GM oil change indicator, but certainly better than depending on memory.
> That guy's a fool... People that blindly do 3K oil changes are wasting a lot of money....does that make them a fool?
Ed
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 03:50 GMT > I think Toyota did the right > thing when they eliminated the normal / severe service schedules and just > went to a 5K across the board schedule. This was because people were going 10-12,000 miles between changes and sludging their engines.
I was there when the campaign was on.
C. E. White - 10 Jun 2008 13:11 GMT >> I think Toyota did the right >> thing when they eliminated the normal / severe service schedules [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and > sludging their engines. So why did changing the recommendation alter the behavior of people? If you are going to ignore a 7500/5000 recommendation, aren't you just as likely to ignore a 5k recommendation? I suppose the maintenance required light might help, but I know more than a few people who are comfortable ignoring those as well.
> I was there when the campaign was on. In Europe Toyotas have 10K mile oil change recommendations (see page 12 of http://www.toyota.co.uk/bv/OwnerServices/BriefGuides/COROLLA.pdf ). I wonder why in the US, they specify 5K oil changes. My SO keeps telling me that her old Toyota (a mid-80s Camry) only required 10K oil changes - I think it actually required 7500 mile oil changes, but who am I to argue with her. Either way, it was not the engine that gave her the most trouble, it was the transmission.
Ed
Hachiroku ハチロク - 10 Jun 2008 20:05 GMT >> This was because people were going 10-12,000 miles between changes and >> sludging their engines. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > light might help, but I know more than a few people who are comfortable > ignoring those as well. So that people who did heed the recommendation would tighten up a little bit, and those who didn't were SOL...?
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 10 Jun 2008 21:42 GMT >>> I think Toyota did the right >>> thing when they eliminated the normal / severe service schedules [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > >Ed Reason number 1? Different oil spec. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 07 Jun 2008 02:03 GMT >1. the pores remain the same size, regardless of oil content. that >defines particle size. Except there is NO straight path for the dirt to follow, and as it "negatiates the turns" the dirt DOES get caught on the oily fibers.
The best air filter yet is still the old oil bath type - where the ironcurls soaked in oil trapped the dirt. NOTHING filters better than a properly serviced oil bath cleaner.
>2. oil filters let though more dirt as the flow rate increases. that's >why paper filters are used so much these days - filtration remains the >same regardless of flow rate. No, the reason oil bath cleaners are no longer used boils down to expense. The labour required to properly service them and the expense of disposing of the "toxic waste" produced by that service.
>> Their recommendation was 12 months or >> 12,000 miles, I did it every other oil change (as Dim beam can tell you, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >that's not quantitative. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
jim beam - 09 Jun 2008 01:29 GMT >> 1. the pores remain the same size, regardless of oil content. that >> defines particle size. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > expense. The labour required to properly service them and the expense > of disposing of the "toxic waste" produced by that service. sorry, not so. i have some filtration data - i just have to find it. paper is better for the reasons stated.
>>> Their recommendation was 12 months or >>> 12,000 miles, I did it every other oil change (as Dim beam can tell you, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** hachiroku - 09 Jun 2008 05:02 GMT >> No, the reason oil bath cleaners are no longer used boils down to >> expense. The labour required to properly service them and the expense of >> disposing of the "toxic waste" produced by that service. > > sorry, not so. i have some filtration data - i just have to find it. > paper is better for the reasons stated. Who gives a f.ck?
jim beam - 09 Jun 2008 05:18 GMT >>> No, the reason oil bath cleaners are no longer used boils down to >>> expense. The labour required to properly service them and the expense of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Who gives a f.ck? you, evidently.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 03:48 GMT >> Who gives a f.ck? > > you, evidently. Not really.
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 03:56 GMT >>> Who gives a f.ck? >>> >> you, evidently. > > Not really. the way you keep biting contradicts that.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 04:33 GMT >>> you, evidently. >> >> Not really. >> > the way you keep biting contradicts that. Well, why don't you post your data, Blowhole?
Make some use of yourself other than being the backside of a mule.
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:51 GMT >>>> you, evidently. >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Make some use of yourself other than being the backside of a mule. what do you want me to post? i haven't made bullshit claims about air filters decreasing fuel consumption, so you're the one that needs to be posting data.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 05:02 GMT >> Well, why don't you post your data, Blowhole? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > filters decreasing fuel consumption, so you're the one that needs to be > posting data. You said you have data showing the difference between oiled filters and paper filters. So, where is it, *MOUTH*? Did you forget you said that?
I'm beginning to believe who the actual bullshitter is here. Put up or shut up.
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 05:25 GMT >>> Well, why don't you post your data, Blowhole? >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I'm beginning to believe who the actual bullshitter is here. Put up or > shut up. whoops, busted, no books here on planet bulldetector either!
and the conversation with clare is for "oil", not "oiled". thanks.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 05:37 GMT >> You said you have data showing the difference between oiled filters and >> paper filters. So, where is it, *MOUTH*? Did you forget you said that? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > whoops, busted, no books here That seems fairly evident.
As far as 'oil' or 'oiled', you're assuming I actually am paying attention to what you're spewing. I couldn't care less, cause you're a blowhard and a moron.
Tell me something: if JDM engines are so good, WHAT ARE THEY DOING IN JUNKYARDS, moron?!?!
Now, post the data you were going to post, or STFU.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 05:41 GMT >>>> Well, why don't you post your data, Blowhole? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > and the conversation with clare is for "oil", not "oiled". thanks.
> The best air filter yet is still the old oil bath type - where the > ironcurls soaked in oil trapped the dirt. NOTHING filters better than a [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > expense. The labour required to properly service them and the expense of > disposing of the "toxic waste" produced by that service. sorry, not so. i have some filtration data - i just have to find it. paper is better for the reasons stated.
Let's see. "The best air filter yet is the old oil bath type..."
Oil? Oiled? Again, you don't seem to know WTF you're talking about.
But, we've grown accustomed to that, he said pendantically...
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 10 Jun 2008 21:36 GMT >>>>> Well, why don't you post your data, Blowhole? >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >But, we've grown accustomed to that, he said pendantically... Do you know what an OIL BATH air filter is? ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 00:16 GMT >>sorry, not so. i have some filtration data - i just have to find it. >>paper is better for the reasons stated. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> > Do you know what an OIL BATH air filter is? I sure do. I used to work in farming and in industrial environments when I was in high school and college, and oil bath air filters were in use a lot on the diesel motors used in a lot of the equipment.
One thing I will say: a poor design for the filter was a friggin' MESS!
There are still some on the market for older diesel engines. Wix still makes them and sells them through CarQuest, or they did 6 years ago.
Meat Plow - 10 Jun 2008 08:14 GMT >>>> Who gives a f.ck? >>>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > the way you keep biting contradicts that. Bite this you stalking pisswit.
 Signature #1 Offishul Ruiner of Usenet, March 2007 #1 Usenet a.shole, March 2007 #10 Most hated Usenetizen of all time Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, June 2004 Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook, Line & Sinker, May 2008 COOSN-266-06-25794
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 09 Jun 2008 20:24 GMT >sorry, not so. i have some filtration data - i just have to find it. >paper is better for the reasons stated. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** Well, Here is some pretty good information that would tend to support my position over yours.:
The oil-bath air-cleaner is a classic example of a two-stage' kinetic filtering element, removing virtually all particulate contaminants from the air at all engine speeds.
Incoming air is forced to follow a vertical descending path toward the pool of oil then drawn upwards. Having a mass several million times that of a molecule of air, the inertia of the dust particles makes it impossible for them to follow the abrupt change of direction in the air-stream, causing the particles to strike the pool of oil where they become trapped. This works best at high rates of air-flow.
The coir filter element, which forms what is termed a 'labyrinth filter', applies the same principle but in a different manner. The coir element forces the air to change direction many times. The fibers are coated with kerosene. Dust particles collide with the fibers and are trapped by the kerosene.
The spec for cleaning the coir filter is to immerse it in kerosene, allowing it to soak for up to half an hour. It is then sloshed repeatedly and allowed to drain. This was done twice a year under normal driving conditions, as often as deemed necessary under dusty conditions.
In use, particles of dust trapped in the oil bath cause the level of the oil to rise. Under severe conditions it may require cleaning on a daily basis. (Moisture does the same thing. In a rainy climate it isn't unusual for the air cleaner to accumulate a quart of water per month.)
Under Volkswagen's original apprenticeship training program the effectiveness of the oil-bath air-cleaner was demonstrated by removing the sludge from a the oil-bath and coir filter, flushing it with solvent and examining the residue. A low-power microscope was needed to observe the smallest particles.
The same principle is used to clean the air for large stationary engines and for air conditioning applications, in which a recirculating water-bath may be used instead of oil, and the air may be forced past as many as two dozen up-down baffles, removing even microscopic particles of low density such as pollen. In some systems the water-bath is sealed with a thin film of mineral oil. Trapped particles fall thru the oil and are removed by the recirculation of the water beneath the oil film. I understand special silicone-based oils are used in modern HVAC systems but non-human applications such as large stationary engines continue to use mineral oil. Residential HVAC systems typically use labyrinth-type filters, designed primarily to catch fibers rather than particles.
Paper and foam filtering elements are based on the labyrinth principle. The effectiveness of the oil-bath air-cleaner is superior to that of the typical paper or foam filtering element. Paper air-filtering elements came into use when they became effective at trapping particles of a certain size. Oil-bath filters will trap smaller particles but there is no evidence of accelerated engine wear for particles below a certain critical size.
Air filters for rough service (armored vehicles, farm machinery, etc) where an oil-bath would be unsuitable, and high-volume applications (turbines, etc) use the same physical principle of mass-differentiation, typically drawing the air through several stages of centrifuging during which the greater mass of the dust particles causes them to be separated from the air-stream. Although such air-cleaners may be powered or static, they are often called 'turbo' air-cleaners. They are often used in conjunction with disposable labyrinth-type filters. For Volkswagen owners running off-pavement, the static type of 'turbo' air-cleaner used on Ford tractors has proven most effective.
Recent air-pollution legislation enacted here in California requires automotive paint shops to reduce their emission of vapor and particulate material. I mention this because the most cost effective means of doing so involves the use of high-volume, low-pressure spray-painting systems in conjunction with a multi-baffle water-bath air-cleaner that uses exactly the same principle as the air-cleaner on an early Volkswagen.
-Bob Hoover -4 May 1997 ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 01:33 GMT >> sorry, not so. i have some filtration data - i just have to find it. >> paper is better for the reasons stated. [quoted text clipped - 89 lines] > -Bob Hoover -4 May 1997 > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** the principle of how oil baths work is not at issue [centrifugal, et al]. what /is/ at issue is their efficacy - it varies with flow rate. none of your cites address that issue.
as an aside, it's odd to see that a paint shop is supposed use a water baffle for hydrocarbon vapors - many of which are not typically regarded as water soluble are they?
Retired VIP - 10 Jun 2008 14:53 GMT >>> sorry, not so. i have some filtration data - i just have to find it. >>> paper is better for the reasons stated. [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] >al]. what /is/ at issue is their efficacy - it varies with flow rate. >none of your cites address that issue. That's why there are two filter media. The oil in the tank is one and the 'steel wool' is the other. What dirt that isn't flung into the oil tank is captured by the oil-wetted fibers.
>as an aside, it's odd to see that a paint shop is supposed use a water >baffle for hydrocarbon vapors - many of which are not typically regarded >as water soluble are they? C. E. White - 10 Jun 2008 15:07 GMT > That's why there are two filter media. The oil in the tank is one > and > the 'steel wool' is the other. What dirt that isn't flung into the > oil tank is captured by the oil-wetted fibers. I don't suppose you have ever tried to use an oil bath filter in a truly dusty enviroment. In my case, the worst case enviroment is picking peanuts. We've had to stop and clean out the stupid oil bath filters multiple times a day and still dirt gets through. The intake between the filter and carb are coated.with oil residue and dust. With modern paper filters, no problems. I can't imagine anyone who would want to go back to oil bath filters. Even when properly maintained, they are inferior to modern paper filters, and if not properly maintained they are a disaster. They may have been state of the art 65 years ago, but their time has past.
Ed
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 16:16 GMT >>>> sorry, not so. i have some filtration data - i just have to find it. >>>> paper is better for the reasons stated. [quoted text clipped - 95 lines] > the 'steel wool' is the other. What dirt that isn't flung into the > oil tank is captured by the oil-wetted fibers. actually, the steel wool is to capture oil droplets created by bubbling, not dirt. otherwise the oil level would constantly drop as it would be ingested by the engine - as still happens to a small degree anyway.
>> as an aside, it's odd to see that a paint shop is supposed use a water >> baffle for hydrocarbon vapors - many of which are not typically regarded >> as water soluble are they? clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 10 Jun 2008 21:26 GMT >as an aside, it's odd to see that a paint shop is supposed use a water >baffle for hydrocarbon vapors - many of which are not typically regarded >as water soluble are they? Not water soluable, but they get trapped very efficiently none the less. It WORKS and that's what matters. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 09 Jun 2008 20:39 GMT >>> 1. the pores remain the same size, regardless of oil content. that >>> defines particle size. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> >> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** More: Oil Bath: An oil bath air cleaner consists of a round base bowl containing a pool of oil, and a round insert which is filled with fibre, mesh, foam, or another coarse filter media. When the cleaner is assembled, the media-containing body of the insert sits a short distance above the surface of the oil pool. The rim of the insert overlaps the rim of the base bowl. This arrangement forms a labyrinthine path through which the air must travel in a series of U-turns: up through the gap between the rims of the insert and the base bowl, down through the gap between the outer wall of the insert and the inner wall of the base bowl, and up through the filter media in the body of the insert. This U-turn takes the air at high velocity across the surface of the oil pool. Larger and heavier dust and dirt particles in the air cannot make the turn due to their inertia, so they fall into the oil and settle to the bottom of the base bowl. Lighter and smaller particles are trapped by the filtration media in the insert, which is wetted by oil droplets aspirated thereinto by normal airflow.
Oil bath air cleaners were very widely used in automotive and small-engine applications until the widespread industry adoption of the paper filter in the early 1960s. Such cleaners are still used in off-road equipment where very high levels of dust are encountered, for oil bath air cleaners can sequester a great deal of dirt relative to their overall size, without loss of filtration efficacy or airflow. However, the liquid oil makes cleaning and servicing such air cleaners messy and inconvenient, they must be relatively large to avoid excessive restriction at high airflow rates, and they tend to increase exhaust emissions of unburned hydrocarbons due to oil aspiration when used on spark-ignition engines.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Bill Putney - 09 Jun 2008 22:58 GMT > More: > Oil Bath: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** I drove a '65 International Travelall with the oil bath air filter from my mid teens until the early 80's when I sold it, so I am familiar with this type of filter.
You had me at "More:", but did you shoot your argument for its efficacy in the foot when you said "and they tend to increase exhaust emissions of unburned hydrocarbons due to oil aspiration when used on sark-ignition engines", being that that oil that would thus be aspirated would have been the medium that contains all the dirt that was caught? I think I see the answer to my question in your explanation, but I want to see what you will say. This is a very intersting discussion.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 10 Jun 2008 00:53 GMT >> More: >> Oil Bath: [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >address with the letter 'x') OK, first of all, it wasn't me who said it. I quoted it. Second, when high velocity air passes an oily surface, under certain conditions small amounts of oil will be stripped off by the air - even "vapour" which can affect emissions. Remember the talk of oil from an oiled guaze filter fouling MAFs? Same phenomenon - and I would say extremely unlikely, and even then, an extremely small effect. And the dirt would NOT come along with the oil.
I know from experience that they work very well. My 1949 VW in Zambia Central Africa had WELL over half a million miles on it, in VERY dusty conditions, with the ORIGINAL engine still purring along just fine, using virtually no oil, in 1974
My 1967 Peugot had been fitted with an oil bath cleaner from a VW Kombi for the same reason -
I also worked on the farm as a teen, and one of my nastier jobs was cleaning the oil bath air cleaners on the equipment.It was a one hour job to do it right.
I did my apprenticeship as an auto mechanic at what was also a farm equipment dealership. A cyclonic pre-cleaner and oil bath filter was standard equipment on the (Cockshutt) White combines of the day as well as most tractors. I also worked for a Fiat-Allis industrial equipment dealership.We worked on a lot of older equipment with the oil bath cleaners, as well as equipment with paper filters. A high end paper filter with a pre-cleaner "sock" on it (oiled foam) MAY have filtered as well as the oil bath but it sure plugged up a lot faster. Most of the "bargain" filters did not seat well, and you could SEE where the dirt was sneaking past the filter. And real fine dust plugged the good paper filters quickly to the point that high vacuum was created across the filters, sucking the fine abrasive particles through.(concrete dust was MURDER) With the oiled foam pre-filter serviced regularly the paper filters hardly got any dirt at all. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Retired VIP - 10 Jun 2008 01:51 GMT >> More: >> Oil Bath: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > >Bill Putney The oil in the filter media was constantly washed out and replaced by clean oil from the bath. So the dirt trapped by the oil was deposited in the oil tank. Remember that the filter media was very course, somewhat like steel wool, so dry media would be next to useless as an air filter.
I would tend to doubt that engine emissions would be effected to any great amount by oil drawn into the intake manifold. Unless the tank was over filled, I just don't think enough oil would make it out of the filter.
Jack
Bill Putney - 10 Jun 2008 11:13 GMT >>> More: >>> Oil Bath: [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > was over filled, I just don't think enough oil would make it out of > the filter. My question was not the effect of the oil on emissions per-se, but that that oil that got aspirated was carrying dirt that it had filtered out of the incoming air stream - i.e., the purpose of a filter is to prevent the entry of dirt into the engine, yet the very media that captures (and holds?) the dirt is being ingested to some degree.
Are you saying, or would you say, that (1) The dirt captured by the oil for the most part is not in suspension (i.e., it settles out), and (2) The amount of oil ingested (proportionally containing very little suspended dirt?) is not significant - the total effect being that the dirt entering the engine with the ingested oil is very small - much smaller than would occur with a good paper filter?
You're looking at on the order of 97-98% efficiency of a good paper filter. When you're talking a couple of percent, even small amounts getting thru (by ingestion of the oil) could have significant effects on the total efficiency numbers (for oil bath filters). To really know what that is, the typical total ingestion rate (dirt contained in the inadvertently ingested oil drops) would need to be quantified.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Retired VIP - 10 Jun 2008 15:22 GMT >>> Bill Putney >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >the entry of dirt into the engine, yet the very media that captures (and >holds?) the dirt is being ingested to some degree. You really should read my response. I addressed that by saying, and I quote myself:
"The oil in the filter media was constantly washed out and replaced by clean oil from the bath. So the dirt trapped by the oil was deposited in the oil tank."
>Are you saying, or would you say, that (1) The dirt captured by the oil >for the most part is not in suspension (i.e., it settles out), and (2) >The amount of oil ingested (proportionally containing very little >suspended dirt?) is not significant - the total effect being that the >dirt entering the engine with the ingested oil is very small - much >smaller than would occur with a good paper filter? What I'm saying is that very, very little oil would make it through the filter and into the engine. What little did make it into the engine would be relatively clean. All of this presupposes that the filter is properly serviced.
>You're looking at on the order of 97-98% efficiency of a good paper >filter. When you're talking a couple of percent, even small amounts >getting thru (by ingestion of the oil) could have significant effects on >the total efficiency numbers (for oil bath filters). To really know >what that is, the typical total ingestion rate (dirt contained in the >inadvertently ingested oil drops) would need to be quantified. When you quantify the efficiency of a filter, you have to spec the size of the particles you're talking about. The efficiency of a good paper filter would be 0% if you're talking about virus and 100% if you're talking about 1/2 inch stones.
This conversation, while interesting, is rather pointless. No car manufactured today uses an oil-bath air cleaner so it's efficiency is meaningless.
I would be interested in seeing some scientific tests comparing paper filters to oil-bath under real-life conditions. Both regarding maximum particle size that makes it through the filter as well as total amount of dirt removed during the service life. That would answer your questions as well as mine.
Jack
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 16:42 GMT >>>> Bill Putney >>> The oil in the filter media was constantly washed out and replaced by [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > paper filter would be 0% if you're talking about virus and 100% if > you're talking about 1/2 inch stones. in terms of mass, according to the bosch automotive handbook, modern paper filters are 99.8% efficient for cars, 99.95% for trucks. it also discusses nanofiber media with fiber diameters down to 30-40nm, but it's unclear whether this means particles are also filtered to that level or not.
> This conversation, while interesting, is rather pointless. No car > manufactured today uses an oil-bath air cleaner so it's efficiency is [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Jack Hachiroku ハチロク - 10 Jun 2008 20:45 GMT >> When you quantify the efficiency of a filter, you have to spec the size >> of the particles you're talking about. The efficiency of a good paper [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > unclear whether this means particles are also filtered to that level or > not. WTF is Bosch going to say, "Our filters suck"?
Bill Putney - 11 Jun 2008 00:06 GMT > ...it also > discusses nanofiber media with fiber diameters down to 30-40nm, but it's > unclear whether this means particles are also filtered to that level or > not. Not inherently. Fiber diameter is fiber diameter. Particle size implies the space between the fibers. But there would be a connection between small fiber size and getting minimum filtered particle size down while at the same time *not* causing undue restriction levels, IOW a very low particle size-restriction product (product as in multiplication).
If filtered particle size is decreased but fiber size remains the same, restriction levels goes up - a tradeoff. So smaller fiber size relaxes that tradeoff and gives you a competitive advantage.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
jim beam - 11 Jun 2008 05:08 GMT >> ...it also discusses nanofiber media with fiber diameters down to >> 30-40nm, but it's unclear whether this means particles are also [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > between small fiber size and getting minimum filtered particle size down > while at the same time *not* causing undue restriction levels, they use progressively dense layers sandwiched together. the coarse layers filter the larger particles, and so on. i assume this helps retain air flow rate better as the filter does its job. assuming the filter media is installed the correct way around of course!
> IOW a > very low particle size-restriction product (product as in multiplication). > > If filtered particle size is decreased but fiber size remains the same, > restriction levels goes up - a tradeoff. So smaller fiber size relaxes > that tradeoff and gives you a competitive advantage. Bill Putney - 11 Jun 2008 00:26 GMT >>>> Bill Putney >>> The oil in the filter media was constantly washed out and replaced by [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > Jack Got it - thanks.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 10 Jun 2008 21:41 GMT >>>> More: >>>> Oil Bath: [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] >(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >address with the letter 'x') The oil injested would be from the surface of the oiled media. The VAST majority of the captured dirt settles in the "sump". The injested oil is basically "vapour" - and as I stated is almost unmeasurable - insignificant. Particals of dirt would be such a low fraction of that extremely small amount that it would be barely a blip on the radar. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Bill Putney - 11 Jun 2008 00:25 GMT >> My question was not the effect of the oil on emissions per-se, but that >> that oil that got aspirated was carrying dirt that it had filtered out [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > extremely small amount that it would be barely a blip on the radar. > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** OK - thanks.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
C. E. White - 09 Jun 2008 18:47 GMT > The best air filter yet is still the old oil bath type - where the > ironcurls soaked in oil trapped the dirt. NOTHING filters better than > a properly serviced oil bath cleaner. NO WAY!!!! I lived with those for years on farm tractors. It is not even close. Modern paper filters are far better.
Ed
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 09 Jun 2008 21:45 GMT >> The best air filter yet is still the old oil bath type - where the >> ironcurls soaked in oil trapped the dirt. NOTHING filters better than [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Ed I worked with them for years on farm and industrial equipment.(both as user and mechanic) Properly serviced they WERE extremely effective.I'd say properly sized they were more effective at filtering across the broad spectrum, if slightly more restrictive. Combined with a "turbo" pre-cleaner to catch the flies, bumblebees and gravel stones not much dirt of any description got through. It took an hour to properly service one though - and it was a DIRTY job. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
C. E. White - 10 Jun 2008 13:12 GMT >>> The best air filter yet is still the old oil bath type - where the >>> ironcurls soaked in oil trapped the dirt. NOTHING filters better [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > hour to properly service one though - and it was a DIRTY job. > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** To each his own. There is no way I would buy any new equipment with an oil bath filter. I am certain they are not as effective as modern paper filters.
Ed
Bill Putney - 06 Jun 2008 11:11 GMT >>> I dunno about the K&N filters... >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > I would also remove the tube and have a look, and it was no dirtier than > the stock air box. See: http://www.duramax-diesel.com/spicer/index.htm
The paper that came with the K&N I used to use said it was not recommended in areas with "agricultural dust". Makes sense - you can imagine a lot of dust wicking up the oil very quickly and then subsequent dust zipping on thru the holes.
I work in a mining area with lots of dust. After I read that study, I went back to a good paper filter.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
hachiroku - 06 Jun 2008 15:05 GMT > Hachiroku wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > I work in a mining area with lots of dust. After I read that study, I > went back to a good paper filter. I didn't have that problem. I had read all the evidence pro and con and kept a good eye on the filter. It never got really dirty.
Had a lot of bugs in it, though!
jim beam - 07 Jun 2008 03:32 GMT >> Hachiroku wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > I didn't have that problem. I had read all the evidence pro and con and > kept a good eye on the filter. It never got really dirty. that's non-quantitative. but you won't care if science means nothing.
> Had a lot of bugs in it, though! Hachiroku ハチロク - 07 Jun 2008 05:50 GMT >>> I work in a mining area with lots of dust. After I read that study, I >>> went back to a good paper filter. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > that's non-quantitative. but you won't care if science means nothing. Let's see...science says more dirt will pass with one of these filters.
Inspections say no more than the stock filter get through.
Common sense says, the few particles that do get through are extremely fine, and will most likely burn up and/or get discharged through the exhaust valves without doing any damage.
Probably less damage than 12,000 mile oil is doing.
Bill Putney - 07 Jun 2008 15:47 GMT > Let's see...science says more dirt will pass with one of these filters. > > Inspections say no more than the stock filter get through... So which do you believe? Both can't be true.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
hachiroku - 07 Jun 2008 22:37 GMT >> Let's see...science says more dirt will pass with one of these filters. >> >> Inspections say no more than the stock filter get through... > > So which do you believe? Both can't be true. I have a tendancy to trust my eyes more than what someone tells me.
Someone told me Mobil 1 synthetic gear lube was better then mineral oil of the same weight. I drained the Mobil 1 out of the diff, filled it with Valvoline mineral oil (and the GM additive) and could feel the difference in 10 feet...
Kevin - 07 Jun 2008 23:15 GMT >> Hachiroku ãƒãƒãƒã‚¯ wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > it with Valvoline mineral oil (and the GM additive) and could feel the > difference in 10 feet... now your just being stupid. KB
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hachiroku - 08 Jun 2008 00:00 GMT >> I have a tendancy to trust my eyes more than what someone tells me. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> > now your just being stupid. KB Thanks. I know what the seat of my pants tells me.
Before the change, shifting into reverse or drive made the car feel like the rear end was physically loose, that's how much the clutches were locking up.
If you're just going to be a troll, please STFU. I know what I was feeling from the car a f.ck of a lot more than you were.
hachiroku - 08 Jun 2008 02:44 GMT >>> Hachiroku ããã㯠wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> > now your just being stupid. KB Gee, I knew what it felt like before changing the oil, and after. Based on what it felt like from one end of the driveway to the other, I could tell right as soon as I shifted into reverse it was doing better, since it didn't feel like the rear end was shaking off the car.
I would guess since I lived with it for a week, I would have a better idea of the difference in the feel than you...
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 08 Jun 2008 03:59 GMT >>>> Hachiroku ã?ã?ã?ã?¯ wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >I would guess since I lived with it for a week, I would have a better idea >of the difference in the feel than you... Let me guess - limited slip diff. The Mobil did not have the correct friction modifiers to make the LSD happy. Adding the friction modifiers to the Mobil wopuld have solved the problem same as changing the oil. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Bill Putney - 07 Jun 2008 15:36 GMT >> I work in a mining area with lots of dust. After I read that study, I >> went back to a good paper filter. > > I didn't have that problem. I had read all the evidence pro and con and > kept a good eye on the filter. It never got really dirty. There is only one pro for the K&N: Initial restriction. Every other parametric is a con for the K&N - including it's relative inability to catch the dirt right out of the box and oiled - worst out of 9 filters tested. So keeping an eye on it didn't make it any better.
All I'm saying is that if people think they are getting any benefit out of a K&N *OTHER* *THAN* lower restriction, then they are fooling themselves. And the lower restriction is only initially - once it catches more than 150 gms of dirt, its restriction goes thru the roof and far surpasses that of paper filters with much more dirt already trapped. And a lot more dirt will have been let thru into the engine by the K&N by that point. I don't tell anyone not to use K&N - I just say look at the truth, not the hype, and if you decide that less restriction is a high priority and preventing dirt from going into the engine (and cleaning it often won't change that) is a low priority for you, then, by all means use it. Your decision will not be made out of ignorance and hype.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
hachiroku - 07 Jun 2008 22:35 GMT >> I didn't have that problem. I had read all the evidence pro and con and >> kept a good eye on the filter. It never got really dirty. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > is a low priority for you, then, by all means use it. Your decision will > not be made out of ignorance and hype. I didn't use a K&N filter, I used a different one, that came with the intake. Same principle. Maybe it was a better filter.
I know I managed to get >4 MPG more after I changed the filter.
Kevin - 07 Jun 2008 23:14 GMT >>> I didn't have that problem. I had read all the evidence pro and con >>> and kept a good eye on the filter. It never got really dirty. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > I know I managed to get >4 MPG more after I changed the filter. I would argue you just weren`t checking it as close before the filter change, because unless you had a problem, on a FI eng that can`t happen. There is no scientific way that your milage could increase that much unless you had a previous problem. KB
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hachiroku - 07 Jun 2008 23:57 GMT >> I didn't use a K&N filter, I used a different one, that came with the >> intake. Same principle. Maybe it was a better filter. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > There is no scientific way that your milage could increase that much > unless you had a previous problem. KB Every car has a 'little black book'. Every fuel fill is recorded with the accompanying fuel economy. THe fuel economy went up and stayed up after adding the Cold Air intake...
Kevin - 08 Jun 2008 16:46 GMT >>> I didn't use a K&N filter, I used a different one, that came with the >>> intake. Same principle. Maybe it was a better filter. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > accompanying fuel economy. THe fuel economy went up and stayed up after > adding the Cold Air intake... So what was done besides the intake? the intake couldn`t have increased the milage by itself. KB
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Bill Putney - 07 Jun 2008 23:46 GMT >>> I didn't have that problem. I had read all the evidence pro and con and >>> kept a good eye on the filter. It never got really dirty. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I know I managed to get >4 MPG more after I changed the filter. Question: From the engine's standpoint, how is a less restrictive filter with throttle body plate at a certain position any different than a more restrictive filter with the throttle body open a little more? The result in either case is the same amount of total restriction and air delivery, and the fuel delivery at the injectors will be metered to match the air volume, and the power output will be the same (the computer won't know *why* the air volume is what it is, only that it is what it is). The only difference will be at WOT where you will be able to produce more power with the less restrictive filter, same as if the throttle body were bigger with the more restrictive air filter.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
hachiroku - 07 Jun 2008 23:56 GMT >> I didn't use a K&N filter, I used a different one, that came with the >> intake. Same principle. Maybe it was a better filter. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > with throttle body plate at a certain position any different than a more > restrictive filter with the throttle body open a little more? With the throttle body open further, the ECU is also injecting more gas.
The less restrictive filter allows more air to pass.
Bill Putney - 08 Jun 2008 00:59 GMT >>> I didn't use a K&N filter, I used a different one, that came with the >>> intake. Same principle. Maybe it was a better filter. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > With the throttle body open further, the ECU is also injecting more gas. No. The ECU is closing the loop by providing the right amount of gas for the volume of air to satisfy the O2 sensor(s). It doesn't care *why* the air flow is what it is - i.e., what combination of throttle body opening and air filter restriction caused it, only that it is what it is.
> The less restrictive filter allows more air to pass. Which is only a factor at WOT. For less than WOT conditions, total restriction is throttle body plus filter. The total is all that matters, not how it's proportioned between the two.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
hachiroku - 08 Jun 2008 02:20 GMT >>>> I didn't use a K&N filter, I used a different one, that came with the >>>> intake. Same principle. Maybe it was a better filter. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > restriction is throttle body plus filter. The total is all that matters, > not how it's proportioned between the two. Yes, I had forgotten that.
Perhaps it's the velocity of the air, but you'd think the vaves would restrict that, too.
All I know is, after adding the CAI, the mileage went up! Unlike our friend jim beam, I'm not wasting a lot of time figuring why, I just know it worked! ;)
jim beam - 09 Jun 2008 01:51 GMT >>>>> I didn't use a K&N filter, I used a different one, that came with the >>>>> intake. Same principle. Maybe it was a better filter. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Unlike our friend jim beam, I'm not wasting a lot of time figuring why, I > just know it worked! ;) you just spent your weekend arguing with people that know a lot better than you, and this is all you have to say? time you went back to your old schools and burned them down - they seriously failed you.
hachiroku - 09 Jun 2008 05:02 GMT >> All I know is, after adding the CAI, the mileage went up! Unlike our >> friend jim beam, I'm not wasting a lot of time figuring why, I just know [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > than you, and this is all you have to say? time you went back to your old > schools and burned them down - they seriously failed you. And you keep coming back and arguing with me, Dipweed.
I think *I* know better what my car did than you do.
I hate these 'experts' that think things can't work if *THEY* say so.
jim beam - 09 Jun 2008 05:30 GMT >>> All I know is, after adding the CAI, the mileage went up! Unlike our >>> friend jim beam, I'm not wasting a lot of time figuring why, I just know [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > And you keep coming back and arguing with me, Dipweed. maybe that's part of your problem if you think i'm arguing with you. you keep bullshitting, and i simply enjoy correcting your inevitable mistakes!
> I think *I* know better what my car did than you do. what you think and what is real are not the same. like someone watching a monochrome tv tube claiming that it shows full color, what you're claiming is simply impossible.
> I hate these 'experts' that think things can't work if *THEY* say so. no, you just want to bullshit. i took the trouble to look up some of your posts on a.a.toyota. frankly, signal to noise ratio over there is scary low, and you're one of the biggest reasons.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 03:47 GMT >>>> All I know is, after adding the CAI, the mileage went up! Unlike our >>>> friend jim beam, I'm not wasting a lot of time figuring why, I just [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > maybe that's part of your problem if you think i'm arguing with you. you > keep bullshitting, and i simply enjoy correcting your inevitable mistakes! I never bullshit, Jackass. If I say I did something and it did this, then it did.
>> I think *I* know better what my car did than you do. > > what you think and what is real are not the same. like someone watching a > monochrome tv tube claiming that it shows full color, what you're claiming > is simply impossible. Um, book in the glove box? Increase from 38 MPG to 44 MPG? What part aren't you quite getting here?
Do you have any real world experience doing anything at all, or are you just Mr Know-It-All?
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:04 GMT >>>>> All I know is, after adding the CAI, the mileage went up! Unlike our >>>>> friend jim beam, I'm not wasting a lot of time figuring why, I just [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I never bullshit, Jackass. If I say I did something and it did this, then > it did. 1. you do.
2. you're wrong.
>>> I think *I* know better what my car did than you do. >> what you think and what is real are not the same. like someone watching a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Um, book in the glove box? Increase from 38 MPG to 44 MPG? What part > aren't you quite getting here? the bit where you're claiming the impossible.
> Do you have any real world experience doing anything at all, or are you > just Mr Know-It-All? nope - we don't have cars on planet bulldetector. i just take your effluent and fling it back at you. real simple to stop if you don't like it though - if you don't produce it, it won't come back at you.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 04:32 GMT >> Do you have any real world experience doing anything at all, or are you >> just Mr Know-It-All? >> > nope - we don't have cars on planet bulldetector. I believe it. That's why you're such a moron.
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:52 GMT >>> Do you have any real world experience doing anything at all, or are you >>> just Mr Know-It-All? >>> >> nope - we don't have cars on planet bulldetector. > > I believe it. That's why you're such a moron. does not compute. lack of cars here on planet bulldetector has nothing to do with i.q.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 05:00 GMT >>> nope - we don't have cars on planet bulldetector. >> >> I believe it. That's why you're such a moron. >> > does not compute. lack of cars here on planet bulldetector has nothing to > do with i.q. In your case it certainly does, since it seems you don't really know much of anything.
But, you keep telling us how smart you are, 'K?
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 05:26 GMT >>>> nope - we don't have cars on planet bulldetector. >>> I believe it. That's why you're such a moron. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > But, you keep telling us how smart you are, 'K? jeepers, i could have /so/ much fun with that!
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 05:35 GMT >>>>> nope - we don't have cars on planet bulldetector. >>>> I believe it. That's why you're such a moron. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > jeepers, i could have /so/ much fun with that! he said pendantically...
You could if you were smart enough to figure the angle.
Kinda looks like you don't have too many friends in the Honda group, either. Ever wonder why that is?
When did Honda start making Camrys?
Bozo...
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 05:48 GMT >>>>>> nope - we don't have cars on planet bulldetector. >>>>> I believe it. That's why you're such a moron. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Bozo... eh?
Hachiroku ハチロク - 10 Jun 2008 20:09 GMT >> he said pendantically... >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> > eh? Go have a look in the Honda group. What kind of balance shaft does a '91 Accord have?
"...you must be thinking about a Toyota Camry..."
(Paraphrasing:) "Gee, I didn't know I spent 6 years and 225,000 miles driving a Toyota Camry I thought was a Honda Accord..."
Looks like you don't know your a.s from a hole in the wall in the Honda group, either...
jim beam - 11 Jun 2008 05:02 GMT >>> he said pendantically... >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Looks like you don't know your a.s from a hole in the wall in the Honda > group, either... reading comprehension is evidently not your strongest skill. nor is putting false words in the mouth of someone else.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 05:28 GMT >> Go have a look in the Honda group. What kind of balance shaft does a '91 >> Accord have? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > reading comprehension is evidently not your strongest skill. nor is > putting false words in the mouth of someone else.
> and you can't destroy an "harmonic balancer" on a 91 accord - it doesn't > have one, it's an ordinary pulley wheel.
> Net Doctor wrote: >> JB..it's a 2 piece pulley, inner and outer hub separated by rubber. Call >> it what we will..it will fly apart with too much pressure on it. > > yes, the 2-piece ones will, but the 91 accord is a single-piece, all > steel, pulley wheel, not a balancer. maybe you're thinking toyota? On Sat, 31 May 2008 21:52:41 -0400, Net Doctor wrote:
> /sarcasm on > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > /sarcasm off But then, being a Dumbass, you wouldn't remember this, would you?
Remember, this thread is about repeatedly running something low. You appear to be running you mouth with your brain low on working cells.
jim beam - 11 Jun 2008 05:33 GMT >>> Go have a look in the Honda group. What kind of balance shaft does a '91 >>> Accord have? [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Remember, this thread is about repeatedly running something low. You > appear to be running you mouth with your brain low on working cells. i remember it perfectly. but it still makes no sense as to why your argument that something "just happens because you say so" has any credibility.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 12 Jun 2008 00:24 GMT >> But then, being a Dumbass, you wouldn't remember this, would you? >> >> Remember, this thread is about repeatedly running something low. You >> appear to be running you mouth with your brain low on working cells. > > NO YOU DI'IN'T!!! yes, I did.
> NO YOU DI'IN'T!!! yes, I did.
> NO YOU DI'IN'T!!! whatever...
Bill Putney - 09 Jun 2008 08:53 GMT >> Yes, I had forgotten that. >> Perhaps it's the velocity of the air, but you'd think the vaves would [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > than you, and this is all you have to say? time you went back to your > old schools and burned them down - they seriously failed you. Was it not determined that the vehicle he's talking about was carbureted, in which case the mileage could have been affected?
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
jim beam - 09 Jun 2008 15:47 GMT >>> Yes, I had forgotten that. >>> Perhaps it's the velocity of the air, but you'd think the vaves would [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Was it not determined that the vehicle he's talking about was > carbureted, in which case the mileage could have been affected? "'95 EFI.", so no.
Bill Putney - 09 Jun 2008 22:28 GMT >>>> Yes, I had forgotten that. >>>> Perhaps it's the velocity of the air, but you'd think the vaves would [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > "'95 EFI.", so no. Yeah - I saw that after I posted.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 09 Jun 2008 20:51 GMT >>> Yes, I had forgotten that. >>> Perhaps it's the velocity of the air, but you'd think the vaves would [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >Was it not determined that the vehicle he's talking about was >carbureted, in which case the mileage could have been affected? Actually, the 82HP 1.5 liter in 1994 was carbureted. The 1995 93HP 1.5 liter engine was injected.
>Bill Putney >(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >address with the letter 'x') ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 01:32 GMT >>>> Yes, I had forgotten that. >>>> Perhaps it's the velocity of the air, but you'd think the vaves would [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Actually, the 82HP 1.5 liter in 1994 was carbureted. The 1995 93HP 1.5 > liter engine was injected. wow, that's got to be one of the last carburetted cars on the road! for north america at any rate.
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 10 Jun 2008 21:24 GMT >>>>> Yes, I had forgotten that. >>>>> Perhaps it's the velocity of the air, but you'd think the vaves would [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >wow, that's got to be one of the last carburetted cars on the road! for >north america at any rate. Yup. It was an electronic feedback constant vacuum carb.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 00:18 GMT >>> Actually, the 82HP 1.5 liter in 1994 was carbureted. The 1995 93HP 1.5 >>> liter engine was injected. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > Yup. It was an electronic feedback constant vacuum carb. Nice to see someone who knows what he's talking about. IIRC, my '83 had a similar system.
jim beam - 11 Jun 2008 05:11 GMT >>>> Actually, the 82HP 1.5 liter in 1994 was carbureted. The 1995 93HP 1.5 >>>> liter engine was injected. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Nice to see someone who knows what he's talking about. > IIRC, my '83 had a similar system. "he"?
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 23:00 GMT >>>>> Actually, the 82HP 1.5 liter in 1994 was carbureted. The 1995 93HP >>>>> 1.5 liter engine was injected. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > "he"? Whatever. But the person knows what s/he is talking about, instead of shotgunning in the dark.
You should try learning something, too! It might actually make you credible, and then you'd know better than to say a '95 Tercel doesn't have a knock sensor.
jim beam - 11 Jun 2008 23:32 GMT >>>>>> Actually, the 82HP 1.5 liter in 1994 was carbureted. The 1995 93HP >>>>>> 1.5 liter engine was injected. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > credible, and then you'd know better than to say a '95 Tercel doesn't > have a knock sensor. the knock sensor that allows the engine to knock? that's funny!
Hachiroku ハチロク - 12 Jun 2008 00:23 GMT >> Whatever. But the person knows what s/he is talking about, instead of >> shotgunning in the dark. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> > NO YOU DI'IN'T!!! yes, I did.
> NO YOU DI'IN'T!!! yes, I did.
> NO YOU DI'IN'T!!! whatever...
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 12 Jun 2008 01:42 GMT >Hachiroku ???? wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >"he"? Yup. He. Last time I checked anyway. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Hachiroku ハチロク - 12 Jun 2008 02:47 GMT On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:42:52 -0400, wrote:
>>> Nice to see someone who knows what he's talking about. IIRC, my '83 had >>> a similar system. >> >>"he"? > Yup. He. Last time I checked anyway. LOL! I thought without the 'i' you might not be a woman...
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 12 Jun 2008 05:08 GMT On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 01:47:19 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:42:52 -0400, wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >LOL! I thought without the 'i' you might not be a woman... Short for Clarence. A not uncommon spelling in these parts. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 08 Jun 2008 03:56 GMT >>> I didn't use a K&N filter, I used a different one, that came with the >>> intake. Same principle. Maybe it was a better filter. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >The less restrictive filter allows more air to pass. With a closed loop system (and ALL OBD2 systems run closed loop when at operating temp and below roughly 75-80% throttle) the mass airflow sensor or Manifold Absolute Pressure sensoe and the O2 sensors fine tune the system so the throttle position sensor does NOT have the final say on injection quantity. The ONLY time a restricted air filter can affect mileage is if it is so plugged it cannot provide adequate airflow for half throttle operation or if you are running over aprox 80% throttle setting.
Will a restricted (restrictive) air filter or intake affect power? DSefinitely. Will it affect mileage? NOPE.
Now, a cold air intake (or fresh air intake)? It WILL affect power, for sure, and CAN affect mileage as well. However any INCREASE in mileage would be extremely small. If you use the extra power, you will pay for it in mileage. The extra power comes from higher air density (colder air) allowing more fuel to be burned.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
hachiroku - 08 Jun 2008 04:14 GMT On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:56:56 -0400, wrote:
> Will a restricted (restrictive) air filter or intake affect power? > DSefinitely. Will it affect mileage? NOPE. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > in mileage. The extra power comes from higher air density (colder air) > allowing more fuel to be burned. Now, this was on a Tercel with a whopping 1.5L, 108 HP engine.
What I noticed was a better throttle response off the line (it certainly didn't turn it into a fire-breating monster! But you could feel the difference) and the increase in gas mileage.
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 08 Jun 2008 05:20 GMT >On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:56:56 -0400, wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Now, this was on a Tercel with a whopping 1.5L, 108 HP engine. What year? EFI or feedback carb?
On a feedback carb system it made a lot more difference.
>What I noticed was a better throttle response off the line (it certainly >didn't turn it into a fire-breating monster! But you could feel the >difference) and the increase in gas mileage. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
hachiroku - 09 Jun 2008 05:00 GMT On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 00:20:51 -0400, wrote:
>>Now, this was on a Tercel with a whopping 1.5L, 108 HP engine. > > What year? EFI or feedback carb? > > On a feedback carb system it made a lot more difference. '95 EFI.
Sold it for $1200 to buy my Supra. Of course, the week after I sold it gas went up a dime (that was 2004...)
jim beam - 09 Jun 2008 01:29 GMT > On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:56:56 -0400, wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Now, this was on a Tercel with a whopping 1.5L, 108 HP engine. er, actually, the tercel has an output of 93hp, not 108.
> What I noticed was a better throttle response off the line (it certainly > didn't turn it into a fire-breating monster! But you could feel the > difference) and the increase in gas mileage. bullshit.
hachiroku - 09 Jun 2008 04:59 GMT >> What I noticed was a better throttle response off the line (it certainly >> didn't turn it into a fire-breating monster! But you could feel the >> difference) and the increase in gas mileage. > > bullshit. What is it with people (especially *YOU*) telling ME what I experienced and didn't experience?!?!
Listen, BOZO, *I* had the f.cking car, *I* put the intake in it, and *I* was driving it! If I recall correctly, *YOU* were nowhere to be seen!
What a f.cking moron.
jim beam - 09 Jun 2008 05:18 GMT >>> What I noticed was a better throttle response off the line (it certainly >>> didn't turn it into a fire-breating monster! But you could feel the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What a f.cking moron. you're demonstrating that there's a world of difference between what someone says on a newsgroup and reality.
bottom line, you're bullshitting, either on purpose or because you're mistaken. technically of course, it's also possible that you could be the new einstein with a new paradigm in combustion chemistry and thermodynamics, but somehow, based on your contribution history and the lack of documentation for your claim, i doubt that.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 03:45 GMT >> What is it with people (especially *YOU*) telling ME what I experienced >> and didn't experience?!?! [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > thermodynamics, but somehow, based on your contribution history and the > lack of documentation for your claim, i doubt that. It could also be that you have your head up your a.s and haven't the first clue of what you're talking about.
Come back when you get some real experience, along with data. I kept a log in the car of fuel economy, and it clearly went up after changing the filter and the intake.
You don't believe it, fine. Why don't you go try one and get back to us with your findings?
Until then, feel free to STFU...
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:07 GMT >>> What is it with people (especially *YOU*) telling ME what I experienced >>> and didn't experience?!?! [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Until then, feel free to STFU... whoops, busted - no cars here on planet bulldetector. but you're giving me /so/ much ammo, even i can hit you from here in the dark smelly wastes of interstellar space.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 04:32 GMT >> It could also be that you have your head up your a.s and haven't the >> first clue of what you're talking about. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > me /so/ much ammo, even i can hit you from here in the dark smelly wastes > of interstellar space. I'm beginning to think you don't even know what a car is...
Why don't you actually go *DO* something and then let us know how it works for you?
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:35 GMT >>> It could also be that you have your head up your a.s and haven't the >>> first clue of what you're talking about. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I'm beginning to think you don't even know what a car is... er, i just told you, we don't have cars here on planet bulldetector. and i don't even /need/ to know what a car is to be able to fling your excrement back at you.
> Why don't you actually go *DO* something and then let us know how it works > for you? flinging your own effluent back at you seems to be working excellently!
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 04:37 GMT >> I'm beginning to think you don't even know what a car is... > > er, i just told you, we don't have cars here Probably the first true thing you've said all along.
C. E. White - 09 Jun 2008 19:20 GMT > On Sat, 07 Jun 2008 22:56:56 -0400, wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > didn't turn it into a fire-breating monster! But you could feel the > difference) and the increase in gas mileage. Better throttle response, or more noise? I sometimes think the two are related. It is possible throttle response was improved but it seems unlikely. To be honest, I am not even sure what improved throttle response means.
Ed
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 03:42 GMT >> Now, this was on a Tercel with a whopping 1.5L, 108 HP engine. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > unlikely. To be honest, I am not even sure what improved throttle response > means. From a dead stop. You could feel the difference. Any lag that had been there before was gone. I was surprised. I mean, obviously, with a 1.5 liter "F" engine I wasn't expecting a fire-breathing monster, but starts from a dead stop were quicker on the uptake.
It also had a small but noticeable effect on passing at speed, >50-60 MPH.
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:09 GMT >>> Now, this was on a Tercel with a whopping 1.5L, 108 HP engine. >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > It also had a small but noticeable effect on passing at speed, >50-60 MPH. so, given that efi controls the engine management, and the throttle is a much more significant restriction on air intake than any but the most seriously clogged filter, how exactly can that be happening? oh, and you need to account for the air being hotter and therefore less dense [!] inside the engine compartment where this new air intake of your resides. thanks.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 04:30 GMT >> From a dead stop. You could feel the difference. Any lag that had been >> there before was gone. I was surprised. I mean, obviously, with a 1.5 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > much more significant restriction on air intake than any but the most > seriously clogged filter, how exactly can that be happening? Easy, it did. You're in the Honda group, right? Don't you ever talk to any of the guys that modify their Hondas? They're all over the place.
Oh, forget it. You're a keyboard Know-It-All, and don't actually talk to real people.
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:49 GMT >>> From a dead stop. You could feel the difference. Any lag that had been >>> there before was gone. I was surprised. I mean, obviously, with a 1.5 [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Oh, forget it. You're a keyboard Know-It-All, and don't actually talk to > real people. "it did"???
ground control to cmdr young: "how exactly to you propose to get apollo 13 back to earth?"
cmdr young to ground control: "er, don't know, but i changed the air intake on my car once and..."
you did used to work for nasa, right?
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 04:59 GMT >>>> From a dead stop. You could feel the difference. Any lag that had been >>>> there before was gone. I was surprised. I mean, obviously, with a 1.5 [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > you did used to work for nasa, right? Gee, I was just thinking about that. No, not NASA, United Technologies.
You remind me of an engineer we had. He'd draw up a circuit and give it to us to build. Invairably, the circuit would usually fail on the first try. Then he'd give the tech a good dressing down in front of everyone and walk away muttering.
What we soon realized was he would often bump all the components up against their 10% tolerances. Occasionally his designs would work off the bat, but fail in testing because when the components were stressed they'd come up against the tolerances and fail.
One of the more artistic guys drew a cartton of an anguished looking guy with his hands around his head and a name tag that said simply "Engineer" and the caption was, "Oh GAWD!!! You built it just like I told you to!"
Like you, he thought he knew more than anyone else, but when it came to practical application he had his head up his a.s.
Why don't you push yourself back from the keyboard and actually try something instaed of being such a f.cking Know-It-All?
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 05:30 GMT >>>>> From a dead stop. You could feel the difference. Any lag that had been >>>>> there before was gone. I was surprised. I mean, obviously, with a 1.5 [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > Why don't you push yourself back from the keyboard and actually try > something instaed of being such a f.cking Know-It-All? if this guy was having problems why didn't you redesign it for him? 'cos you did know more than he did, right?
i can't help you right now though of course - i kinda have my tentacles full...
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 05:34 GMT >> Why don't you push yourself back from the keyboard and actually try >> something instaed of being such a f.cking Know-It-All? > > if this guy was having problems why didn't you redesign it for him? 'cos > you did know more than he did, right? Now you're confusing me with yourself.
No, I don't know how to design circuits. But I know how to analyze and come up with conclusions. That's how I got the job after only 6 months as an electronics tech. Something you don't seem to be able to do very well.
> i can't help you right now though of course - i kinda have my tentacles > full... Yeah, it's kinda tough keeping up the bullshit line, isn't it?
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 05:51 GMT >>> Why don't you push yourself back from the keyboard and actually try >>> something instaed of being such a f.cking Know-It-All? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > months as an electronics tech. Something you don't seem to be able to do > very well. that's a classic! you don't know what you're looking at, but you're qualified to comment on it! you could /definitely/ talk your way into nasa with that one buddy!
>> i can't help you right now though of course - i kinda have my tentacles >> full... > > Yeah, it's kinda tough keeping up the bullshit line, isn't it? tough keeping up /with/ the bullshit you mean? yep, sure is! maybe i need to evolve another couple of hundred tentacles 'cos you're pretty damned productive tonight...
Hachiroku ハチロク - 10 Jun 2008 20:12 GMT >> No, I don't know how to design circuits. But I know how to analyze and >> come up with conclusions. That's how I got the job after only 6 months [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > qualified to comment on it! you could /definitely/ talk your way into > nasa with that one buddy! At least I can tell the difference between an Accord and a Camry, Bozo.
What kind of balance shaft does a '91 Accord have, numbnutz?
>>> i can't help you right now though of course - i kinda have my >>> tentacles full... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > need to evolve another couple of hundred tentacles 'cos you're pretty > damned productive tonight... Naw, it's sifting through your own you're having the trouble with, Jackass.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 10 Jun 2008 20:43 GMT >> Now, this was on a Tercel with a whopping 1.5L, 108 HP engine. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Ed Here's the intake I installed on the car:
http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/rodi_2003_63837953
Here's an OEM style:
http://www.car-stuff.com/store/images/prodimage/images/beck_arnley/ BA-0421515-1.jpg
You can see the outside diameter of the Pilot 'performance' air filter pretty much covers the area of the entire OEM style filter.
Then you have the cone section, which adds about another 1/3.
Now, for example, let's say the OEM allows 8 CFM airflow. The performance filter is ~1/3 larger, so should allow ~11 CFM. (These numbers are arbitrary.)
For any given throttle plate opening, there will be more air trying to get to the combustion chambers with the high-flow filter than with the stock filter. More air entering the chamber should provide better performance, that's why most people looking for performance try to get more air into the intake plenum.
With a higher airflow at any given throttle plate opening, more air is going to pass through with a less restrictive filter. Also, the tube is smooth rather than fluted like the stock intake, since noise really isn't an issue, so airflow is straight through and not interrupted by the fluting used to damp the sound.
Also the tube was designed to place the opening in the end of the new filter at the hole in the fender where outside air is drawn into the stock airbox, and had a heat shield to try to block engine heat. It was also well away from the exhaust manifold and plumbing, so the engine was being allowed to intake cooler air faster.
Also, while doing all this I pulled the fuse to the ECM, for about 20+ minutes, so when the car was started the parameters were reset to take into account the increased air flow.
Flashing the prom would have taken even more advantage of the increased airflow, but I wasn't trying to turn a 1.5 liter engine into a Boy Racer, I was just looking for a little better performance than stock.
C. E. White - 11 Jun 2008 12:57 GMT >>> Now, this was on a Tercel with a whopping 1.5L, 108 HP engine. >>> [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > Racer, > I was just looking for a little better performance than stock. You only got increased air flow at WOT. Must of the time the air flow was limited by the throttle opening, not the air filter. I doubt if the difference in overall restricition was more than a few tenths of a psi even at wide opoen throtttle.
Assuming the new filter really did flow better than the stock, the difference in pressure drop through the intake is going to be on the order of hundredth of psi except at wide open throttle. It is true that with a lower pressure drop in the intake system before the throttle plate, you would have increased air flow for a particualr throttle opening. However, increased air flow also implies more power. So to maintian the same speed as before you installed the less restrictive intake, you would just open the throttle a tiny amount less, resulting in the same overall flow through the system, for a particualr speed. I am confident you would not be able to tell the difference in throttle openning to acheive the same power level just becasue you changed the air intake. As far as the engine and the fuel injection system is concerned, until you are wide open throttle, the air filter is largely irrelevant as long as it is in reasonable condition. Feedback fuel injection systems are designed to compensate for changes far more significant that minor changes in the intake tract pressure drop. Just going from Denver to LA would present a much greater change in the pressure seen at the face of the throttle plate than a simple air filter change. In closed loop mode, the PCM adjusts the amount of fuel injected to achieve a certain air/fuel ratio. Unless you change the response of the system to the O2 sensor readings, the desired A/F ratio is not going to change. During closed loop mode the PCM "learns" parameters it uses to correct other inputs when running in open loop mode, so that as sensors drift over time, the system can compensate. Changing the air filter to a less restricitive design might change the reading of the throttle position sensor for a given power level, but this would be compensated for by the PCM after a few minutes of closed loop operation. At any rate, the TPS is not used directly to determine the amount of fuel injected. Its function is to indicate gross changes in the throttle positions. This allows the PCM to anticipate changing conditions. It functions more like an accelerator pump or dashpot than a direct fuel control.
The only time the potential increase in air flow trough the replacement air filter should have made a difference was at wide open throttle. Otherwise it was doing nothing except slightly altering where the overall air flow into the engine was limited.
The fact that you reset the PCM is significant. To bad you no longer have the car. It would be interesting to reinstall the OEM air filter system.
Ed
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 23:03 GMT > The only time the potential increase in air flow trough the replacement > air filter should have made a difference was at wide open throttle. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > have the car. It would be interesting to reinstall the OEM air filter > system. And at 45 MPG, right now it really *IS* too bad I still don't have the car!!!
C. E. White - 09 Jun 2008 19:14 GMT >>> I didn't use a K&N filter, I used a different one, that came with the >>> intake. Same principle. Maybe it was a better filter. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > With the throttle body open further, the ECU is also injecting more gas. Only if more air is being drawn into the engine, so that the PCM has to inject more fuel to maintain the correct Air/Fuel ratio. The only sensor that actually measures the throttle position is the throttle position sensor. The throttle position sensor (TPS) is a very gross indicator. It's primary purpose is to indicated changes in driver demand. Think of it more as an accelerator pump and dashpot than as the primary device used to determine the amount of fuel injected. In closed loop mode, the amount of fuel injected is primarily controlled by the MAF, RPM, temp, and O2 sensors. In order to make sure the engine runs correctly in open loop mode, the PCM collects data and learns offsets during closed loop mode that are used to correct sensor data when running in open loop mode. Think of it this ay -the difference in restriction between a dirty oiled gauze filter and a clean paper filter is negligible. Look back at your log book - does the fuel economy decrease measurably between cleanings of the oiled gauze filter?
> The less restrictive filter allows more air to pass. Only at wide open throttle.
Ed
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 03:40 GMT > Look back at your log book > - does the fuel economy decrease measurably between cleanings of the oiled > gauze filter? Nope. Stayed a steady 43-45 MPG.
Ed White - 10 Jun 2008 04:07 GMT >> Look back at your log book >> - does the fuel economy decrease measurably between cleanings of the >> oiled >> gauze filter? > > Nope. Stayed a steady 43-45 MPG. Don't you think that is unusual, assuming that changing the air filter was the readon for a large increase in fuel economy? If reducing the air filter restriction could increase fuel economy by 10%, don't you think you should see the fuel economy decrease as the filter accumulates dirt and the filter restriction increases? I know you said your filter was not a K&N, but I assume it is similar. K&Ns own data shows a substantial increase in the filter restricition as it accumulates dirt. K&N shows a dirty K&N filter to be more restricitive than a clean paper filter. It seems to me you can't get a 10% increase in fuel economy by changing to a less restricitive filter and not also get a measurable decrease in fuel economy as that filter loads up with dirt.
Ed
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 04:29 GMT >> Nope. Stayed a steady 43-45 MPG. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > K&N, but I assume it is similar. K&Ns own data shows a substantial > increase in the filter restricition as it accumulates dirt. I never let it accumulate dirt. I cleaned it by vacuuming it and also cleaned and re-oiled it every other oil change. I was worried about dirt getting into the engine, too, so I doubled the maintenance.
In the winter the mileage would fall off to about 40, but that was it.
Bill Putney - 10 Jun 2008 22:42 GMT >>> Look back at your log book >>> - does the fuel economy decrease measurably between cleanings of the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Ed I'm puzzled about one thing that i used to experience sort of related to this, so I'll pose it here: In the late 80's/early 90's, I lived in Colorado - periodic emissions inspections were required. I had an '86 MPFI turbocharged Subaru station wagon at the time. On two occasions, it failed the emissions isnpection - and both times the technician asked if the air filter had been changed recently. On those two occasions, the answer was 'no'. I changed the filter both times, and it passed the re-test with flying colors. After that, I made sure to replace the filter just before taking it for inspection if it had not been changed recently, and it always passed with no problem.
So my question is: If the computer can compensate for the slightly clogged filter for normal driving, why can't it do so for emissions measurements (idling situation)?
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 00:31 GMT > I'm puzzled about one thing that i used to experience sort of related to > this, so I'll pose it here: In the late 80's/early 90's, I lived in [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > clogged filter for normal driving, why can't it do so for emissions > measurements (idling situation)? Basically because a clogged filter is a clogged filter, and if the engine isn't getting enough air it's going to run a little richer than it should. Those cars had a somewhat rudimentary ECM and could lean the car out under normal circumstances, but they sure didn't work as well as ECMs today do. You can only compensate for so much.
I own an '89 GL Coupe, but I went through the car when I bought it and did all the maintenance on it before I put it on the road. It passed the emission test with flying colors with only one of the two factory cats installed!
jim beam - 11 Jun 2008 04:59 GMT >>>> Look back at your log book >>>> - does the fuel economy decrease measurably between cleanings of the [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > clogged filter for normal driving, why can't it do so for emissions > measurements (idling situation)? the effect on air flow at idle, even for an ancient clogged filter, is absolutely minimal. the only explanation i can think of could be that subaru, for some odd reason, don't go closed loop with the oxygen sensor at idle, but revert to some preset value instead. absolutely bizarre.
Bill Putney - 11 Jun 2008 10:55 GMT >>>>> Look back at your log book >>>>> - does the fuel economy decrease measurably between cleanings of [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > subaru, for some odd reason, don't go closed loop with the oxygen sensor > at idle, but revert to some preset value instead. absolutely bizarre. Maybe so. I did get the distinct impression that, whatever the explanation, it was not something that was unique to Subarus, but was a generalization that maybe the techs were trained in, or perhaps that particular tech had learned from experience (that a slightly restricted air filter would cause an increase in whatever parameter it was that was the problem).
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 23:07 GMT >> the effect on air flow at idle, even for an ancient clogged filter, is >> absolutely minimal. the only explanation i can think of could be that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > air filter would cause an increase in whatever parameter it was that was > the problem). Well, I had one of my Corollas fail once, and the tech looked at the test results and asked when the last time I changed spark plugs, wires, or the air filter was. Since the car had platinum plugs and only had 60,000 miles on it, I replaced the AF and it passed magnificently.
But, the tech knew how to read and interpret data, something Mr Bean...er, BEAM needs to learn...
C. E. White - 11 Jun 2008 13:23 GMT ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Putney" <bptn@kinez.net> Newsgroups: alt.autos.ford,alt.autos.honda,alt.autos.nissan,alt.autos.toyota,alt.trucks.chevy Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 5:42 PM Subject: Re: Repeatedly Running On A Low Tank?
> I'm puzzled about one thing that i used to experience sort of > related to this, so I'll pose it here: In the late 80's/early 90's, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > clogged filter for normal driving, why can't it do so for emissions > measurements (idling situation)? Your car was running in open loop mode during the test. If the car is not in closed loop mode, the PCM is running the engine on a stored lookup table (the amount of fuel injected is determined by the engine rpm, TPS reading, MAF reading). Older systems did not do a particularly good job of "learning" parameters at idle. Still, the air filter, unless really dirty, should not have kept the car from passing. At idle the air flow through the filter is relatively low, meaning the pressure drop across the filter was also low. I suppose the combination of the lower atmospheric pressure at high altitude and a dirty filter could have resulted in an air flow vs. sensor relationship that was not addressed in the PCM's look-up table, resulting in too much fuel for the air flow, causing you to fail the test. Still, if the car was warmed up, the converter should have been able to mask any excess fuel condition. Did it fail because of high hydrocarbons, or high carbon monoxide readings? Was the car originally sold with a high altitude calibration (back then cars sold in high altitude areas often got a different set of parameters loaded to the PCM).
Ed
Bill Putney - 12 Jun 2008 00:02 GMT > Your car was running in open loop mode during the test. If the car is > not in closed loop mode, the PCM is running the engine on a stored [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Ed I did know to make sure it was good an warmed up before I got there. IIRC, they rev'ed the engine to something like 2000 or 2500 rpm for several seconds and held it while the testing computer sampled the exhaust. I believe also that a second part of the test was at idle. You're saying that at idle, it would have been open loop regardless?
I could not tell you what parameter caused it to fail.
I do not believe there was any high altitude issues with taht car, i.e., that there was any sort of kit or flash available for it. It certainly ran well, even in 16k feet mountains near Denver. I do recall, it being turbocharged and fuel injected, the amazing difference between how it and the carbureted Chevy Citation V-6 I had at the same time ran at the 10k plus heights.
There is one other possibility that I can think of: I bought eh Sube with 140k miles on it, and though I sold it years later with over 275k miles on it with the original turbo unit and engine running as well or better than it did when new, I suspect that the turbo shaft seals leaked a little. Perhaps, with the intake fan of the turbo unit between the air filter and the throttle body, the extra vacuum on that from a partially restricted filter would have pulled oil thru that seal and that that is what made it fail the test. If that were the case, I would guess that high hydrocarbons would have been the problem.
One other factor: Coincidentally, the particular inspection station that I used was like 3 blocks down the street from Burt Subaru - the largest volume Subaru dealer in the U.S. at the time (turbocharged and 4-wheel drive Subarus were very popular in Denver because they did well going up into the mountains near Denver). Perhaps the special knowledge that the tech had about replacing the filter to pass the test was specific to turbocharged vehicles, or turbo-charged Subarus in particular (perhaps they all leaked a little oil from the shaft seals at higher mileage). But that also is pure speculation on my part.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 12 Jun 2008 01:58 GMT >> Your car was running in open loop mode during the test. If the car is >> not in closed loop mode, the PCM is running the engine on a stored [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] >and the carbureted Chevy Citation V-6 I had at the same time ran at the >10k plus heights. Ah- Turbocharged!! No high altitude calibration(because it "turbo-normalizes"-and quite possible it WOULD run open loop at idle.
>There is one other possibility that I can think of: I bought eh Sube >with 140k miles on it, and though I sold it years later with over 275k [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >address with the letter 'x') ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:10 GMT >> Look back at your log book >> - does the fuel economy decrease measurably between cleanings of the oiled >> gauze filter? > > Nope. Stayed a steady 43-45 MPG. rubbish. tank to tank, fuel economy on any car varies much more widely than that.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 04:27 GMT >>> Look back at your log book >>> - does the fuel economy decrease measurably between cleanings of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I'm an a.shole! He's an a.shole, what an a.shole!
> I'm an a.shole! He's the world's biggest a.shole!
> I'm an a.shole and proud of it! And you prove it daily.
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:32 GMT >>>> Look back at your log book >>>> - does the fuel economy decrease measurably between cleanings of the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > And you prove it daily. hmmm, bullshit and misquotes. and you wonder why people don't take you seriously!
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 04:34 GMT >>> I'm an a.shole and proud of it! >> >> And you prove it daily. >> > hmmm, bullshit and misquotes. and you wonder why people don't take you > seriously! Only you, Jackass...
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:55 GMT >>>> I'm an a.shole and proud of it! >>> And you prove it daily. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Only you, Jackass... i think you need to disable that "jim beam only" filter you have on your newsreader there buddy - it's blocking everybody else that's calling you on the b.s.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 05:06 GMT >> Only you, Jackass... > > i think you need to disable that "jim beam only" filter you have on your > newsreader there buddy - it's blocking everybody else that's calling you > on the b.s. Nobody's calling me on anything. Ed's questioning what I did and what the results were. I'm giving him the results of two year's worth of driving the car.
See, I actually *have* a car. I actually have a few of them. I do most of my own work. I try different things to see if they work, and I keep the results in the car's log.
Some of us here sit behind a keyboard and question everything; other of us actually do stuff and see how it works.
Push yourself back from the keyboard and actually try something.
Hey, here's something else you won't believe, too. I actually got better mileage when I switched from 89 octane to 93 octane. That was documented in the book too. And the spreadsheet I made from the data indicated I actually saved ~$220 in fuel by using premium gas.
Now, tell me why that's wrong, Genius...
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 05:40 GMT >>> Only you, Jackass... >>> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > results were. I'm giving him the results of two year's worth of driving > the car. oh, when you said "it did", i thought you were bullshitting since that's not a recognizable data point here on planet bulldetector! my mistake!
> See, I actually *have* a car. I actually have a few of them. I do most of > my own work. I try different things to see if they work, and I keep the > results in the car's log. i don't. like i told you, we don't have cars here on planet bulldetector.
> Some of us here sit behind a keyboard and question everything; other of us > actually do stuff and see how it works. so how do you do that then???
> Push yourself back from the keyboard and actually try something. > > Hey, here's something else you won't believe, too. I actually got better > mileage when I switched from 89 octane to 93 octane. That was documented > in the book too. And the spreadsheet I made from the data indicated I > actually saved ~$220 in fuel by using premium gas. classic! a car that doesn't have the sensors necessary for an ignition timing adjustment strategy, or compression ratio necessary to take advantage of high octane, but it gives higher mileage!!! tell me, 'cos i'm dying to know, exactly how does that work then?
> Now, tell me why that's wrong, Genius... er, well, if i may be so bold as to copy your argument style, "because it is". how was that?
Hachiroku ハチロク - 10 Jun 2008 20:16 GMT >> Push yourself back from the keyboard and actually try something. >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > advantage of high octane, but it gives higher mileage!!! tell me, 'cos > i'm dying to know, exactly how does that work then? What do you mean, 'doesn't have the sensors"? Of course it has the sensors, Jackass. '95 Twin Cam EFI.
And compression ratio doesn't have a lot to do with it. But you wouldn't know that.
>> Now, tell me why that's wrong, Genius... > > er, well, if i may be so bold as to copy your argument style, "because > it is". how was that? I had it all down in the book in the glove box. See, other than talking out of my a.s, I actually make notes of changes (cause) and results (effect). That way I can make statements as to my observations, instead of just pulling statements out of my a.s.
"But I have data showing that can't work!" Yeah, and I have Real World data that shows you're wrong, Jackass.
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 10 Jun 2008 21:53 GMT On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:16:52 GMT, Hachiroku +O+A+m+/ <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote:
>>> Push yourself back from the keyboard and actually try something. >>> >>> Hey, here's something else you won't believe, too. I actually got >>> better mileage when I switched from 89 octane to 93 octane. That was >>> documented in the book too. And the spreadsheet I made from the data >>> indicated I actually saved ~$220 in fuel by using premium gas. Not sure which car he's talking about here, but the Tercel was known to run better/give better gas mileage on premium IN SOME CASES. Driven consistantly hard there was no advantage. But the little buggers were "cokers" if babied, and the carbon buildup in the cyls of a lightly driven Tercel DID increase the octane requirement significantly.
We used to routinely decarbonise tercels we knew were not driven hard at each major service (spray combustion chamber cleaner in the intake) and we used BG Supercharge in the gas on every major service as well. BG44K was reserved for the real bad ones. Some came in pinging on hightest, and left running fine on regular. Pinging really kills the fuel mileage, as well as power (and eventually the engine)
>> classic! a car that doesn't have the sensors necessary for an ignition >> timing adjustment strategy, or compression ratio necessary to take [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >"But I have data showing that can't work!" Yeah, and I have Real World >data that shows you're wrong, Jackass. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 00:27 GMT >>>> Hey, here's something else you won't believe, too. I actually got >>>> better mileage when I switched from 89 octane to 93 octane. That was [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > "cokers" if babied, and the carbon buildup in the cyls of a lightly > driven Tercel DID increase the octane requirement significantly. LOL! He don't know me very well, do he? :)
"Baby" my cars? Not likely. I found the car actually did very well at 80-85 MPH, but decided saving a few $$$ in gas wasn't worth paying for it for 6 years in insurance premiums.
I live in an area where most of my driving is done >=45 MPH, and I take full advantage of that. I also know where most of the cops hang out at any given time of day, and take advantage of *that*, too.
But, I don't pound the snot out of my cars, either. The Tercel was purchased because I needed a car to drive so I could get my aging '85 Corolla GTS off the road so I could do some work on it. Unfortunately, 2.5 years after buying the Tercel an '88 Supra came up for sale for $600, and I sold the Tercel to buy the Supra, and it's been taking up the bulk of my 'repair' money. It rarely goes over 55 MPH, maybe a few runs on the highway here and there (I did get stopped the first week I put it on the road for the summer in '06 at 88 MPH, but when the officer saw the registration was 4 days old he wrote me up for 72 and said Keep the speed down!)
In the meantime I've had a Celica GTS (85 in good condition) and a '90 240 SX to keep me 'happy'.
> We used to routinely decarbonise tercels we knew were not driven hard > at each major service (spray combustion chamber cleaner in the intake) > and we used BG Supercharge in the gas on every major service as well. > BG44K was reserved for the real bad ones. Some came in pinging on > hightest, and left running fine on regular. Pinging really kills the > fuel mileage, as well as power (and eventually the engine) Hmmm...you work for a Toyota dealer? We were using BG to clean the sludged Camry/Sienna engines, but the BG44K I hadn't heard of until it was advertised on XM radio recently. Is it any good?
If I have some fuel system problems I use Techron. Been using it for years, since it first came out.
Bill Putney - 11 Jun 2008 00:57 GMT >> ...We used to routinely decarbonise tercels we knew were not driven hard >> at each major service (spray combustion chamber cleaner in the intake) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If I have some fuel system problems I use Techron. Been using it for > years, since it first came out. Techron, Sea Foam, Marvel Mystery Oil, ATF - all work well.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 01:21 GMT >>> ...We used to routinely decarbonise tercels we knew were not driven >>> hard at each major service (spray combustion chamber cleaner in the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Techron, Sea Foam, Marvel Mystery Oil, ATF - all work well. I use Techron for fuel system problems, Sea Foam for tranny problems (works wonders in Suby AWD trannies...) but only did the ATF trick once on a Chrysler engine that was making horrendous noises, but managed to put 10,000 miles on that one, too.
I used to mix MMO with Castrol GTX in my cars; for a 1 gallon car like the GTS I would put in 3.5 QTS of Castrol GTX and 1/2 QT of MMO. I believe it makes starting easier, although once the engine's been run it all mixes together, I guess. Does the MMO separate out again? I don't think so...
I also put it in the tank on the older cars occasionally.
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 11 Jun 2008 03:10 GMT >Hachiroku ???? wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> sludged Camry/Sienna engines, but the BG44K I hadn't heard of until it >> was advertised on XM radio recently. Is it any good? Used to be Toyota service manager - for 10 years of my 25 years as an auto mechanic.
The 44K is EXCELLENT stuff
>> If I have some fuel system problems I use Techron. Been using it for >> years, since it first came out. > >Techron, Sea Foam, Marvel Mystery Oil, ATF - all work well. All work well for different problems. The 44k, in my experience, is matched only (possibly) by Techron for removing engine (combustion chamber) deposits. The sea foam is excellent for cleaning the fuel system, and I hear it is pretty good on engine deposits as well. Sea Foam and MMO are both good for crankcase deposits.
Techron and SeaFoam were not readily available up here when I was "actively" involved. 44K was. MMO availability has always been spotty up here - I buy mine in the states any time I go down (for less than half what we pay for it up here WHEN we can get it.
>Bill Putney >(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >address with the letter 'x') ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 04:06 GMT On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:10:32 -0400, wrote:
>>> Hmmm...you work for a Toyota dealer? We were using BG to clean the >>> sludged Camry/Sienna engines, but the BG44K I hadn't heard of until it >>> was advertised on XM radio recently. Is it any good? > > Used to be Toyota service manager - for 10 years of my 25 years as an auto > mechanic. Whereabouts? I'm on the East Coast.
I thought there might have been some professionalism there.
I take it you're in the Camry group. We're having a discussion in Toyota about dealerships 'double dipping' using AllData when it comes to replacing timing belts and water pumps. I've seen Toyota dealers quote ~3 hours to replace the belt, and then again to replace the water pump, even though they're doing both operations at the same time!
Any insight?
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 12 Jun 2008 01:40 GMT On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:06:37 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote:
>On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 22:10:32 -0400, wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Any insight? I'm in Waterloo Ontario. Not on the Camry group. As far as the "double dipping" it goes on all the time - at Ford dealerships, Chrysler dealerships, VW dealerships, Mazda dealerships, Mercedes dealerships, and even, sadly, at some Toyota dealerships.
Never happened at mine when I was in charge. (My shop was not flat rate 'till after I left)
The time for the belt should be about 3 hours. The time for the pump should be about 4 hours. The time for both should be the time for the pump - or the time for the belt plus 1 hour.
If you catch your dealer pulling a fast one, call him on it. If he doesn't make it right REAL QUICK call your local media and prepare to meet him in small claims court. Approach the situation calmly and with your facts well prepared - in other words - professionally. Helps if you can have either the Alldata, Toyota, or other flat rate operation codes and numbers to present. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Hachiroku ハチロク - 12 Jun 2008 02:45 GMT On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:40:34 -0400, wrote:
> I'm in Waterloo Ontario. > Not on the Camry group. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Approach the situation calmly and with your facts well prepared - in other > words - professionally. LOL! I'm generally a 'professional' unless someone tells me something I did couldn't be done! ;)
Ah, Right outside Kitchener. I went to Kitchener once, but I spent a good deal of time in Oshawa (like, IMMEDIATELY behind the GM plant) and Toronto back through the 80's and the early '90's.
My Supra came from a Toyota dealer on Queen St...?
Mike hunt - 12 Jun 2008 17:26 GMT If a repair is completed under warranty, the manufacture determines what reimbursement rate paid, not the dealer.
If you are going to have the work done at a Toyota dealership, find one that is dueled with a domestic brand and have the work done in the domestic brands shop. They can still get you Toyota parts but the domestic brands shop rate will be a lot lower. At least 20% lower in my experience when I was buying Lexus LSs
> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:06:37 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@ae86.GTS> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > present. > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 13 Jun 2008 03:59 GMT >If a repair is completed under warranty, the manufacture determines what >reimbursement rate paid, not the dealer. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >shop rate will be a lot lower. At least 20% lower in my experience when I >was buying Lexus LSs In most twinned dealerships here the labour rate depends on the car, not the bay it is worked on.
>> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:06:37 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@ae86.GTS> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> present. >> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Mike hunt - 13 Jun 2008 17:42 GMT That must be a Canadian thing, it surely was not the case in our mega-dealerships
>>If a repair is completed under warranty, the manufacture determines what >>reimbursement rate paid, not the dealer. [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** still just me - 14 Jun 2008 03:30 GMT On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:06:37 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote:
>I take it you're in the Camry group. We're having a discussion in Toyota >about dealerships 'double dipping' using AllData when it comes to >replacing timing belts and water pumps. I've seen Toyota dealers quote ~3 >hours to replace the belt, and then again to replace the water pump, even >though they're doing both operations at the same time! I've seen this at more than one repair location, dealer or not. I once need an oil pan replaced. The front pipe had to come off to replace it as part of a 3 hour job. The pipe was old and needed replacement, no problem with that. But, the slime mechanic/owner was going to charge me for the pipe work in addition to the pan work even though the pan job already included removing and reinstalling the pipe.
I went elsewhere and never went back to that shop.
Retired VIP - 11 Jun 2008 03:22 GMT >Hachiroku ???? wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Bill Putney Never used any of that stuff. Although I did use some Kerosene once to free up a stuck valve on a Corvar flat six. Poured it down the carb on the side with the stuck valve. Worked great too. ATF probably would have work just as well.
Jack
jim beam - 11 Jun 2008 04:57 GMT > On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:16:52 GMT, Hachiroku +O+A+m+/ > <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > BG44K was reserved for the real bad ones. Some came in pinging on > hightest, and left running fine on regular. which reinforces the point i made but which our friend snipped - the engine computer doesn't have a knock sensor to look at, so it can't take proper advantage of high octane by adjusting its ignition timing strategy.
> Pinging really kills the fuel mileage, as well as power (and > eventually the engine) [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 05:06 GMT >> We used to routinely decarbonise tercels we knew were not driven hard >> at each major service (spray combustion chamber cleaner in the intake) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > engine computer doesn't have a knock sensor to look at, so it can't take > proper advantage of high octane by adjusting its ignition timing strategy. Right. First part I replaced on the car. Back side of the block under the intake runners:
http://www2.partstrain.com/store/images/prodimage/images/WORLDPAC/W01331604175OES.JPG
TWO-DIGIT CODE 52 KNOCK SENSOR SIGNAL--OPEN OR SHORT IN KNOCK SENSOR SIGNAL
--KNOCK SENSOR/CIRCUIT
Keep showing how dumb you are. That's OK.
jim beam - 11 Jun 2008 05:16 GMT >>> We used to routinely decarbonise tercels we knew were not driven hard >>> at each major service (spray combustion chamber cleaner in the intake) [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Keep showing how dumb you are. That's OK. so explain how a car with a knock sensor can still exhibit detonation...
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 05:18 GMT >> Right. First part I replaced on the car. Back side of the block under >> the intake runners: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> > so explain how a car with a knock sensor can still exhibit detonation... By using sh.t GAS.
jim beam - 11 Jun 2008 05:21 GMT >>> Right. First part I replaced on the car. Back side of the block under >>> the intake runners: [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > By using sh.t GAS. so explain, since the engine is supposed to have a knock sensor, and the computer is supposed to adjust the timing accordingly, how can "sh.t GAS" cause detonation???
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 05:31 GMT >>> so explain how a car with a knock sensor can still exhibit >>> detonation... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > computer is supposed to adjust the timing accordingly, how can "sh.t GAS" > cause detonation??? Phew, you really are friggin' stupid, aren't you?
jim beam - 11 Jun 2008 05:35 GMT >>>> so explain how a car with a knock sensor can still exhibit >>>> detonation... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Phew, you really are friggin' stupid, aren't you? sorry, was that a technical explanation? "because i said so" won't get you onto any nasa payroll.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 23:04 GMT >>> so explain, since the engine is supposed to have a knock sensor, and >>> the computer is supposed to adjust the timing accordingly, how can [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > sorry, was that a technical explanation? "because i said so" No, I actually had the data to prove it. See, that's the difference between actually doing something and sitting behind a keyboard guessing.
jim beam - 11 Jun 2008 23:34 GMT >>>> so explain, since the engine is supposed to have a knock sensor, and >>>> the computer is supposed to adjust the timing accordingly, how can [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > No, I actually had the data to prove it. See, that's the difference > between actually doing something and sitting behind a keyboard guessing. but you haven't presented any data -just a number and "because i said so".
Hachiroku ハチロク - 12 Jun 2008 00:22 GMT >> No, I actually had the data to prove it. See, that's the difference >> between actually doing something and sitting behind a keyboard guessing. >> > NO YOU DI'IN'T!!! Yes, I did.
> NO YOU DI'IN'T!!! Yes, I did.
> NO YOU DI'IN'T!!! whatever...
jim beam - 12 Jun 2008 00:30 GMT >>> No, I actually had the data to prove it. See, that's the difference >>> between actually doing something and sitting behind a keyboard guessing. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > whatever... don't misquote, and don't snip without notation. basic usenet etiquette.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 12 Jun 2008 02:40 GMT >>>> No, I actually had the data to prove it. See, that's the difference >>>> between actually doing something and sitting behind a keyboard [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> > don't misquote, and don't snip without notation. basic usenet etiquette. Well, that's basically what it boils down to, doesn't it? I post something I did and the results, and you say it's impossible. I had the data to back it up, and you're talking out your a.s.
Smarten up and maybe I'll behave.
C. E. White - 11 Jun 2008 13:33 GMT > so explain, since the engine is supposed to have a knock sensor, and > the computer is supposed to adjust the timing accordingly, how can > "sh.t GAS" cause detonation??? There is a limit to how much the PCM can adjust the timing. In response to "bad" gas or other factors, the PCM will retard the timing (and in some cases adjust other parameters) to try to eliminate the pre-ignition. But it the gas to really bad, or the other factors are excessive, you can still get pre-ignition. I've had it happen myself.
Ed
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 23:05 GMT >> so explain, since the engine is supposed to have a knock sensor, and >> the computer is supposed to adjust the timing accordingly, how can [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ed Yeah, me too. That's why I avoid the 'bargain' gas stations.
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 12 Jun 2008 01:55 GMT >> so explain, since the engine is supposed to have a knock sensor, and >> the computer is supposed to adjust the timing accordingly, how can [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Ed Ed - Be carefull of your terminology. Pre-Ignition and Detonation are two very different (although also closely connected) problems. Spark timing has no effect on pre-ignition other than the fact that if you advance the timing far enough, the "pre-ignition" will be after the spark. Pretty hard to do that and still have the engine run reasonably well though. By definition, pre-ignition occurs BEFORE the spark.
Pre-ignition CAN cause detonation, and detonation CAN contribute to pre-ignition, but both CAN occur separately from each other.
The PCM can NOT correct for pre-ignition - only detonation. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 12 Jun 2008 01:43 GMT >Hachiroku ???? wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >so explain how a car with a knock sensor can still exhibit detonation... Well, typically (particularly pre-OBD2) there is a LIMITED amount of spark retard available.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 12 Jun 2008 01:47 GMT >Hachiroku ???? wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >so explain how a car with a knock sensor can still exhibit detonation... Also, PRE-IGNITION due to hot carbon is NOT addressed by engine computere.(but is also not very effectively handled by higher octane).
My THEORY is that the octane requirements go up, and EVENTUALLY the carbon situation gets bad enough to cause pre-ignition.(high-test or not) Generally the shop sees the car shortly thereafter --------. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Hachiroku ハチロク - 12 Jun 2008 02:38 GMT On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 20:47:50 -0400, wrote:
>>so explain how a car with a knock sensor can still exhibit detonation... > Also, PRE-IGNITION due to hot carbon is NOT addressed by engine [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > situation gets bad enough to cause pre-ignition.(high-test or not) > Generally the shop sees the car shortly thereafter I had a BAD knocking problem in my Corolla GTS ~120,000 miles, and I had always run what I thought was decent grades of Premium fuel. I would run a bottle of Techron, and then two tanks, and then another bottle of Techron, and it would go away for a year or two.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 11 Jun 2008 05:18 GMT >> We used to routinely decarbonise tercels we knew were not driven hard >> at each major service (spray combustion chamber cleaner in the intake) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > engine computer doesn't have a knock sensor to look at, so it can't take > proper advantage of high octane by adjusting its ignition timing strategy. Oh, BTW, my *85* Celica GTS 2.4 had a knock sensor.
C. E. White - 09 Jun 2008 19:03 GMT > I know I managed to get >4 MPG more after I changed the filter. There is only one reason why this should be true for a modern fuel injected engine - it was so restrictive it limited your power. Otherwise it should have no effect on fuel economy (compared to a properly serviced paper filter). As long as you are talking about a properly serviced air filter, the air filter restriction is no different than the throttle plate restriction as far as the engine electronics are concerned. If the air filter is so screwed up it could effect your fuel economy, it should also trigger the check engine light.
When people claim unbelievable fuel economy improvements for air filters, I usually assume it is due to poor data collection, poor maintenance of the old filter, a change in driving habits (possibly triggered by more noise associated with open cone filters), or just wishful thinking. Do you think it is possible that Toyota did such a poor job of designing an intake system, that some random aftermarket product could improve the fuel economy by 4 mpg (more than 12%). Why would by a car from a company that would be that incompetent? If improvements of this magnitude were obtained merely by changing air filters, don't you think all the manufacturers would make the switch? How happy would Ford be if they could up their CAFE average by even a tenth of your claimed increase?
Ed
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 03:38 GMT >> I know I managed to get >4 MPG more after I changed the filter. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > filter is so screwed up it could effect your fuel economy, it should also > trigger the check engine light. Man, you should know I'm pretty up on my maintenance. The paper filter was about 6 months old when I did the swap.
And no change in the MIL.
> When people claim unbelievable fuel economy improvements for air filters, > I usually assume it is due to poor data collection, poor maintenance of > the old filter, a change in driving habits (possibly triggered by more > noise associated with open cone filters), or just wishful thinking. I keep a book in my cars showing oil changes, mintenance (air filters, etc) and every time I fill up. Prior to switching the air filter over I was getting 38-40 MPG, and after ~44/45. And I didn't let my foot up at all! You should know *THAT* by now, too!
Ed White - 10 Jun 2008 04:01 GMT >>> I know I managed to get >4 MPG more after I changed the filter. >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > was getting 38-40 MPG, and after ~44/45. And I didn't let my foot up at > all! You should know *THAT* by now, too! Well I can't explain it. I also can't see how changing the filter should have affected the fuel economy by a measurable amount. Did you reset the PCM when you installed the filter? I suppose it is possible that oil from the filter coated the MAF and screwed up the information provided by the MAF to the PCM, but even in this case the PCM should have been able to cmpensate and return the A/F to the correct value (and if it couldn't, it should turn on the CEL). Another possible explanation is that you actually decreased the performance of the engine, limiting your ability to burn gas (I think it is possible you are confusing increases noise with increased performance). A properly functioning PCM should easily be able to compensate for minor changes in an air filter. You didn't change tires around the same time you changed the filter by any chance? Or maybe the fuel formulation in your area changed? I just can't come up with a rational explanation for a 10% increase in fuel economy related to just changing the air filter. If you are not at WOT, the air filter isn't a significant source of inlet restriction unless it is practically plugged up and in this case, you'd have bigger problems.
Ed
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:10 GMT >>> I know I managed to get >4 MPG more after I changed the filter. >> There is only one reason why this should be true for a modern fuel [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > was getting 38-40 MPG, and after ~44/45. And I didn't let my foot up at > all! You should know *THAT* by now, too! b.s.
hachiroku - 10 Jun 2008 04:25 GMT >> I keep a book in my cars showing oil changes, mintenance (air filters, >> etc) and every time I fill up. Prior to switching the air filter over I >> was getting 38-40 MPG, and after ~44/45. And I didn't let my foot up at >> all! You should know *THAT* by now, too! >> > I'm an a.shole! He's an a.shole, what an a.shole!
> I'm an a.shole! He's the world's biggest a.shole!
> I'm an a.shole and proud of it! Yeah, we can tell...
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 04:33 GMT >>> I keep a book in my cars showing oil changes, mintenance (air filters, >>> etc) and every time I fill up. Prior to switching the air filter over I [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Yeah, we can tell... here, let me reinsert what you clipped:
"b.s."
there you go.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 10 Jun 2008 20:17 GMT >>> I'm an a.shole! >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > there you go. Yeah, you're correct. Everything you post is b.s.
Retired VIP - 06 Jun 2008 15:55 GMT On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 03:43:10 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@ae86.GTS> wrote:
>>> I dunno about the K&N filters... >>> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >I would also remove the tube and have a look, and it was no dirtier than >the stock air box. Most cars used an oil-bath air cleaner up until about 1955. It was a round tank with a "U" profile. A matching, inverted tank was inserted in the first tank. The first tank held about a pint of engine oil and the second tank was packed with steel wool. The air made two 180 degree shifts in direction which helped to drop the dust and dirt into the oil. Vibration would splash the oil up on the steel wool which also helped filter the air.
The filter system worked great but took some maintenance at each oil change and it generated some additional dirty oil. It was also expensive to produce compared with paper filters.
Jack
Bill Putney - 07 Jun 2008 00:28 GMT > Most cars used an oil-bath air cleaner up until about 1955. It was a > round tank with a "U" profile. A matching, inverted tank was inserted [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > change and it generated some additional dirty oil. It was also > expensive to produce compared with paper filters. Hah! As a teenager, I drove a 1965 International Travelall that had that type of oil bath air cleaner as well as the canister type oil filter that preceded the screw-on type filters. I learned early how to get my hands dirty!
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
jim beam - 07 Jun 2008 03:32 GMT > On Fri, 06 Jun 2008 03:43:10 GMT, Hachiroku ???? <Trueno@ae86.GTS> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > The filter system worked great actually, they don't work very well. they permit a broad spectrum of particle sizes and filtration rates decrease as flow rates increase. that's why paper is used today - absolute control over particle size and constant filter effectiveness across the full flow rate band.
> but took some maintenance at each oil > change and it generated some additional dirty oil. It was also > expensive to produce compared with paper filters. > > Jack Hachiroku ハチロク - 07 Jun 2008 05:48 GMT >>> I would also remove the tube and have a look, and it was no dirtier >>> than the stock air box. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > actually, they don't work very well. Read the first sentance of the quoted section.
William R. Walsh - 04 Jun 2008 06:10 GMT Hi!
> (I learned this when I worked as a designer/engineer/manager for a supplier
> of fuel pump parts to GM/Delphi and Ford/Visteon. Just out of pure curiosity, did that supplier have a name and can you say who it was?
William
Bill Putney - 06 Jun 2008 00:34 GMT > Hi! > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > William Carbone of America. U.S. division of French-owned Carbone Lorraine.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
The Reverend Natural Light - 02 Jun 2008 20:35 GMT > The only effect of low fuel in the tank is > a slight temperature rise of the volume of fuel in the tank (due to same [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If anyone wants to argue this, be sure of your facts beforehand - I used > to design automotive fuel pump components. GM TPI has the regulator on the outlet side of the fuel rails. Fuel returning to the tank has run all the way through the rails - which are bolted to the intake manifold. With the engine hot, you can grab the fuel rails and they'll be cold.
I'll bet that makes a substantial rise in temperature inside the tank on low level. Who knows what affect that has on pump life.
PerfectReign - 02 Jun 2008 21:46 GMT >> The only effect of low fuel in the tank is >> a slight temperature rise of the volume of fuel in the tank (due to same [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I'll bet that makes a substantial rise in temperature inside the tank > on low level. Who knows what affect that has on pump life. Good point - Why doesn't someone buy me a new top of the line truck, and I'll test it out for y'all.
No charge for the test. :P
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Kevin - 02 Jun 2008 22:08 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, >> instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') I realize all I have is antidotal evidence, but in 95% of the pumps I replace, I always ask the customer and it is almost always the ones I am replacing admit to running the tank low most of the time. KB
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Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 02:12 GMT > I realize all I have is antidotal evidence, but in 95% of the pumps I > replace, I always ask the customer and it is almost always the ones I am > replacing admit to running the tank low most of the time. KB 30% of vehicle accidents with serious injuries or deaths involve drinking. Therefore 70% of such accidents do not involve drinking. Therefore, statistically, driving and not drinking is more dangerous than driving and drinking. :)
Seriously - what if *most* people drive with the tank low most of the time. Then your theory would be a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Also - would these possibly be more older vehicles with the recirc type fuel systems (fuel in tank heated by engine compartment)?
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
pakeha@not.a.real.address.com - 03 Jun 2008 01:39 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead >> of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >If anyone wants to argue this, be sure of your facts beforehand - I used >to design automotive fuel pump components. Were they permanant magnet motors??
SteveL
ScottM - 03 Jun 2008 16:05 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, >> instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address > with the letter 'x') Ive seen it happen many times but only on Chevys. Of course it could be coincidence but I don't think so. "I thought I ran out of gas because it was really low but I put gas in it and it still wont start" <<<<like that.
p.s. you didn't design Chevy fuel pump components did you? ;)
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 23:27 GMT >>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, >>> instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > p.s. you didn't design Chevy fuel pump components did you? ;) Actually - yes. But we'd have to know which pump/platform.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Norman Webb - 09 Jun 2008 00:48 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead >> of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >(To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my >address with the letter 'x') My LPG fueled cars keep the fuel pump going ALL the time. Loaned a car to my penniless son for sometime and he only put LPG in it. Ran out of fuel and cooked the pump.
My Mitsubishi van broke a fule lead 150 km from a town. I didn't realize fuel pump kept running and cooked another bloody pump.
Keep some fuel in it.
jim beam - 09 Jun 2008 01:28 GMT >>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, > instead [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > Keep some fuel in it. er, why would anyone leave the ignition in the "run" position after the fuel's gone and the vehicle's stopped? because that's the only condition under which you could theoretically "cook" a pump. /and/ that's assuming the engine computer doesn't turn the pump off for you, which pretty much /any/ engine computer would do btw.
Norman Webb - 10 Jun 2008 00:15 GMT jim beam wrote in message ...
>>>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, >> instead [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] >that's assuming the engine computer doesn't turn the pump off for you, >which pretty much /any/ engine computer would do btw. Nuh, We're talking duel fuel cars
When you switch over to LPG from petrol the petrol pump keeps running. Don't know if the car computer monitors fuel pressure and that's why they keep the fuel pump working. I was running on LPG and the petrol was pissing out of a break in the petrol line.
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 10 Jun 2008 01:00 GMT >jim beam wrote in message ... >>>>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] >keep the fuel pump working. I was running on LPG and the petrol was pissing >out of a break in the petrol line. All kinds of LPG conversions - but THAT one would never pass in Ontario. Only one fuel source can be "live" at any one time. Shutting off the injectors alone is NOT adequate. No EFI system I am aware of senses fuel pressure.
Some EFI engines are difficult to dual fuel because the computer (which controls fuel AND spark) needs to see the load on the injector circuit to avoid throwing a code.You need the computer "happy" to operate the spark timing.
Also, if the mixture goes off, the computer cannot correct unless you are using a "piggyback" liquid injection system. (or a propane "augmentation" system - which feeds the engine propane, but on the lean side - and the gasoline injection system corrects the mixture with gasoline.
I have not seen a commercial system that works that way, which would be the only reason for running the fuel pump while burning LPG. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
jim beam - 10 Jun 2008 01:38 GMT > jim beam wrote in message ... >>>>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > When you switch over to LPG from petrol the petrol pump keeps running. not if it's controlled by the computer it doesn't. maybe yours was rigged in some way, but if it was, it's hardly fair to blame pump burnout on the pump because it's not designed to run dry and is protected from doing so by the computer under any normal application.
> Don't know if the car computer monitors fuel pressure and that's why they > keep the fuel pump working. I was running on LPG and the petrol was pissing > out of a break in the petrol line. that's extremely dangerous [obviously]. i don't think the people that did your conversion knew what they were doing or that would never have happened.
Elmo P. Shagnasty - 02 Jun 2008 11:44 GMT > Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead > of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Not because you could run out of gas and get stranded but because repeatedly > running on low tends to ruin the fuel pump. Um, no it won't.
Interesting that the article just threw that out there with no further explanation. But then, that's Fox News for you.
hachiroku - 02 Jun 2008 15:36 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead >> of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Um, no it won't. The pump is cooled by the fuel in the tank. You want to keep in enough to cover the pump.
> Interesting that the article just threw that out there with no further > explanation. But then, that's Fox News for you. Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 01:10 GMT >>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead >>> of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The pump is cooled by the fuel in the tank. You want to keep in enough to > cover the pump. Almost all cooling of the pump comes from fuel flowing thru it - very little from mostly stagnant fuel around the outside of the pump.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 00:41 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead >> of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Interesting that the article just threw that out there with no further > explanation. But then, that's Fox News for you. Far be it from me to criticize Fox News, but in this case I agree with you. I find *all* news outlets to be totally FOS when they try to discuss technical subjects.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Enrico Fermi - 02 Jun 2008 12:22 GMT > Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, > instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not because you could run out of gas and get stranded but because > repeatedly running on low tends to ruin the fuel pump. It's like every "factual" story in the media is just all spin. So, is this guy an Oil Company shill trying to get us to fill-up and inflate the price of gasoline? A futures trader? A tow-truck operator? An idiot? It could be anything but the truth. There is so much unadulterated BS in the media, from NAFTA Superhighways to infomercials for Jack LaLanne Juicers. The Reader's Digest used to be the main source of of this righteous nonsense (That's Outrageous!) but now it is everywhere. Do you awaken with a painful need to urinate? You need a new drug! Do your too-small briefs leave red marks on your skin? It's cancer! My favorites are the ads for Lunesta: Side effects many include drowsiness! WTF? Sorry for the rant...........
jim beam - 02 Jun 2008 13:53 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, >> instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > guy an Oil Company shill trying to get us to fill-up and inflate the price > of gasoline? no, that could /never/ happen. not ever. not in a million bajillion years. no sir.
oh, wait, the fuel pump thing is utter bullshit, so...
> A futures trader? A tow-truck operator? An idiot? It could be > anything but the truth. There is so much unadulterated BS in the media, from [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > your skin? It's cancer! My favorites are the ads for Lunesta: Side effects > many include drowsiness! WTF? Sorry for the rant........... hachiroku - 02 Jun 2008 15:35 GMT >> It's like every "factual" story in the media is just all spin. So, is this >> guy an Oil Company shill trying to get us to fill-up and inflate the price [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > oh, wait, the fuel pump thing is utter bullshit, so... Once again you show how little you know.
The fuel pump is cooled by fuel. If you run on a low tank that doesn't cover the fuel pump, it can fail prematurely. At $190~425 for a fuel pump. it's probably cheaper to keep enough fuel in the tank to cool the pump.
What did I expect from someone who changes his oil at 12,000 miles whether it needs it or not.
Reply when you get a clue...
Daniel Who Wants to Know - 02 Jun 2008 19:20 GMT >>> It's like every "factual" story in the media is just all spin. So, is >>> this [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Reply when you get a clue... Sorry to burst your bubble hachi but the level of fuel outside the pump means nothing. As has been mentioned before the fuel being pumped goes directly through the motor assembly on its way from one end of the pump to the other. This means the armature, commutator, brushes, and field magnets are all constantly bathed in flowing fuel while the pump is on. Typical construction is a steel tube containing the magnets which is crimped onto 2 end caps. The bottom end cap contains the turbine (TBI) or gerotor (MPI) pump and the top cap contains the fuel outlet, check valve, electrical terminals, and brush holders. The pressure relief valve that protects the pump from being dead-headed from a plugged filter or a kinked fuel line is also in one of the 2 caps. I have also seen pumps that were all plastic. I haven't designed pumps but I have taken apart a half dozen failed ones.
All that being said I have also personally heard the distinct sound of vapor bubbles going through the fuel pressure regulator on a car with the engine running. I think in some cases the pump starts sucking air through the top of the pickup sock before the tank is completely empty but yet is still able to supply enough pressure and volume for the engine to run.
P.S. Why is this cross posted to about a zillion newsgroups?
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 01:59 GMT > All that being said I have also personally heard the distinct sound of vapor > bubbles going through the fuel pressure regulator on a car with the engine > running. I think in some cases the pump starts sucking air through the top > of the pickup sock before the tank is completely empty but yet is still able > to supply enough pressure and volume for the engine to run. I can visualize that happening as it starts sucking bubbles of air rising into the pump thru the pickup tube. Kind of like cavitation, except air instead of nothing. Froth.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Elle - 03 Jun 2008 02:16 GMT > I can visualize that happening as it starts sucking > bubbles of air rising into the pump thru the pickup tube. > Kind of like cavitation, except air instead of nothing. > Froth. I trust you will recall that cavitation is not bubbles filled with nothing. It is the occurrence of bubbles filled with the vapor of the liquid being moved. It is a consequence of the liquid reaching a pressure low enough to cause boiling.
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 02:19 GMT >> I can visualize that happening as it starts sucking >> bubbles of air rising into the pump thru the pickup tube. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > consequence of the liquid reaching a pressure low enough to > cause boiling. You are correct.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Hachiroku ハチロク - 03 Jun 2008 02:30 GMT >> The fuel pump is cooled by fuel. If you run on a low tank that doesn't >> cover the fuel pump, it can fail prematurely. At $190~425 for a fuel [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > directly through the motor assembly on its way from one end of the pump > to the other. But...But...Ray told me I was in danger of burning out my fuel pump in my Supra when I got it because the tank had so many holes I had to keep it below 1/4 tank.
I trust what Ray says...
Ray O - 03 Jun 2008 06:04 GMT >>> The fuel pump is cooled by fuel. If you run on a low tank that doesn't >>> cover the fuel pump, it can fail prematurely. At $190~425 for a fuel [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > I trust what Ray says... Sorry, Hachi...
I don't remember what I said before, but the danger in burning out the fuel pump is if you let it run dry repeatedly. Toyota electric fuel pumps are cooled and lubricated by the fuel flowing through it, not by the fuel around it. Since it is mounted on top of the tank, where it would only be submerged when the tank is fuel, it wouldn't make sense to have to rely on it being submerged all the time when it would only be submerged when the tank is full. Running with a low tank will not have any measurable effect on fuel pump life.
Running with a low tank doesn't increase the odds that the fuel pump will pick up more debris from the bottom of the tank than when the tank is full - the odds are the same. If you think about cleaning a pool, the pool vacuum picks up stuff off the bottom of the pool without having to empty the pool. Even if there were debris at the bottom of the tank, the fuel pickup has a screen that prevents any big stuff from being pulled into the fuel pump.
Running on a tank that is mostly empty could promote condensation in the tank, which could eventually foul the injectors, but even that is a stretch.
The problem I see with running adding fuel a little at a time is the hassle of constantly having to stop for fuel, and there is a greater chance of running the tank completely dry, which if done often enough, is bad for the fuel pump.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 11:49 GMT >> But...But...Ray told me I was in danger of burning out my fuel pump in my >> Supra when I got it because the tank had so many holes I had to keep it >> below 1/4 tank. >> >> I trust what Ray says...
> ...Since it is mounted on top of the tank, where it would only be > submerged when the tank is fuel, Oh man! Now you've got to keep that tank above 3/4 full all the time to keep from destroying that pump! :)
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
hachiroku - 03 Jun 2008 20:00 GMT >> ...Since it is mounted on top of the tank, where it would only be >> submerged when the tank is fuel, > > Oh man! Now you've got to keep that tank above 3/4 full all the time to > keep from destroying that pump! It's mounted low on the bracket, so 1/3 will probably cover it.
But, I keep the tank full as much as possible. I don't want my *new* $375 fuel tank rotting out!
C. E. White - 03 Jun 2008 22:38 GMT >>> ...Since it is mounted on top of the tank, where it would only be >>> submerged when the tank is fuel, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > But, I keep the tank full as much as possible. I don't want my *new* $375 > fuel tank rotting out! The tank is actually steel? I thought everyone changed to plastic tanks years ago.
Ed
Hachiroku ハチロク - 04 Jun 2008 04:39 GMT >>>> ...Since it is mounted on top of the tank, where it would only be >>>> submerged when the tank is fuel, [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ed Not this car...'88 Supra, still has a metal tank.
C. E. White - 05 Jun 2008 12:06 GMT >> The tank is actually steel? I thought everyone changed to plastic >> tanks [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Not this car...'88 Supra, still has a metal tank. I am surprised. I know Datsun 280Zs had plastic tanks in 1976. I am thinking that plastic tanks are actually a good thing.
Ed
willshak - 05 Jun 2008 12:41 GMT on 6/5/2008 7:06 AM C. E. White said the following:
>>> The tank is actually steel? I thought everyone changed to plastic tanks >>> years ago. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ed Yes, they are easier and safer than metal when drilling holes in the tank to steal gas, as has been happening lately. Drilling into the tank with cordless drills won't cause a spark which may result in injury or death to the thieves, and thereby limiting the amount of damages you may have to pay for injuring the thief from other reasons, like dropping the drill on their face.
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hachiroku - 05 Jun 2008 14:10 GMT > Drilling into the tank > with cordless drills won't cause a spark which may result in injury or > death to the thieves Take your cordless drill into a completely darkened room and hit the trigger, and tell me there isn't a spark! You still have a rotor, a stator and brushes, and any time you have those, you can generate a spark.
Maybe a few will start blowing these bastards to hell...
Bill Putney - 06 Jun 2008 00:41 GMT >>> The tank is actually steel? I thought everyone changed to plastic tanks >>> years ago. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ed I find it ironic that part of the solution to conserving petroleum uses products made from petroleum (plastics).
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Tegger - 06 Jun 2008 02:26 GMT >>>> The tank is actually steel? I thought everyone changed to plastic >>>> tanks years ago. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > I find it ironic that part of the solution to conserving petroleum > uses products made from petroleum (plastics). Of course you know plastics are made from the garbage that remains once all the useful stuff has been distilled from a barrel of crude... This garbage was priorly dumped as useless before scientists learned how to play with the molecules.
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clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 03 Jun 2008 18:48 GMT >I don't remember what I said before, but the danger in burning out the fuel >pump is if you let it run dry repeatedly. Toyota electric fuel pumps are [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >tank is full. Running with a low tank will not have any measurable effect >on fuel pump life. Moderately low is OK. Severely low is a NO-NO. The pump must NOT be allowed to draw air. This happens when the fuel gets down to about 3" deep on wasboard road surfaces, where the bottom of the tank shakes and makes the fuel spash and spray around inside the tank. The motors get insufficient cooling and the pump runs dry - scoring and damaging the pump cell.
>Running with a low tank doesn't increase the odds that the fuel pump will >pick up more debris from the bottom of the tank than when the tank is full - >the odds are the same. If you think about cleaning a pool, the pool vacuum >picks up stuff off the bottom of the pool without having to empty the pool. >Even if there were debris at the bottom of the tank, the fuel pickup has a >screen that prevents any big stuff from being pulled into the fuel pump. And IF there is water (and supended rust) in the bottom of the tank it WILL get picked up when the tank is low. It will NEVER get picked up when the tank is full. And SURPRISE!! - It costs the same amount to keep the TOP 1/8 tank full as it does the bottom 1/8.
>Running on a tank that is mostly empty could promote condensation in the >tank, which could eventually foul the injectors, but even that is a stretch.
>The problem I see with running adding fuel a little at a time is the hassle >of constantly having to stop for fuel, and there is a greater chance of >running the tank completely dry, which if done often enough, is bad for the >fuel pump. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
L Alpert - 14 Jun 2008 13:04 GMT >>I don't remember what I said before, but the danger in burning out >>the fuel [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > The motors get insufficient cooling and the pump runs dry - scoring > and damaging the pump cell. I depends on what one defines as low. I regularly drive until the needle on the gauge is right over the "E" line, and I have never taken more than 15.7 gallons. The '04 accord manual calls for a fuel tank capacity of 17.12 US gallons.
hachiroku - 03 Jun 2008 19:58 GMT >> But...But...Ray told me I was in danger of burning out my fuel pump in >> my Supra when I got it because the tank had so many holes I had to keep [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > submerged when the tank is full. Running with a low tank will not have > any measurable effect on fuel pump life. On the Supra it is quite well into the tank, probably an inch or two from the bottom. This discussion came up a couple years ago when I still had my 'holey' tank and could only run 1/4 tank at a time, and you recommended fixing it posthaste as this condition could be detrimental to the pump.
Since I take what you say as Gospel ( ;) ), I repaired the tank ASAP (Also in an effort to keep at that time $1.78/gallon gas from just evaporating into thin air...).
Better safe than sorry, esp @ $199 for an OEM Denso pump!
Ray O - 04 Jun 2008 07:25 GMT >>> But...But...Ray told me I was in danger of burning out my fuel pump in >>> my Supra when I got it because the tank had so many holes I had to keep [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Better safe than sorry, esp @ $199 for an OEM Denso pump! Running the pump dry repeatedly will eventually ruin the pump, but once or twice probably won't cause a problem. Having holes in the fuel tank can introduce a lot of moisture in the tank, and of course, the gas fumes that could escape from the holes are not the best thing to have in a garage.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Hachiroku ハチロク - 05 Jun 2008 02:07 GMT >>>> But...But...Ray told me I was in danger of burning out my fuel pump in >>>> my Supra when I got it because the tank had so many holes I had to [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > introduce a lot of moisture in the tank, and of course, the gas fumes that > could escape from the holes are not the best thing to have in a garage. You got that right! The first winter was murder! But I ran the tank so far down that it stopped smelling after a few weeks.
No problem now! I can fill the tank to the top!
C. E. White - 03 Jun 2008 22:35 GMT > I don't remember what I said before, but the danger in burning out the > fuel pump is if you let it run dry repeatedly. Toyota electric fuel pumps [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > tank is full. Running with a low tank will not have any measurable effect > on fuel pump life. While it might be mounted throught the top of the tank, I believe in most cases the pump is actully near the bottom of the tank. I looked at my shop manual for the Camry and it appears that the fuel pump stack is set up so that the pump is mounted directly on top of the pick-up sock. This implies it is almost always surrounded by some fuel unless level in the tank is very low. Here is a picture of a Camry Fuel Pump assembly - http://info.rockauto.com/getimage/getimage.php?imagekey=977329&imageurl=http%
Ed
jim beam - 04 Jun 2008 03:24 GMT >> I don't remember what I said before, but the danger in burning out the >> fuel pump is if you let it run dry repeatedly. Toyota electric fuel pumps [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Ed why is everyone so hung up on immersion? gasoline isn't exactly the greatest cooling liquid because it has a low specific heat capacity. what's important is circulation /within/ the pump, not /without/.
hachiroku - 05 Jun 2008 14:12 GMT >> While it might be mounted throught the top of the tank, I believe in >> most cases the pump is actully near the bottom of the tank. I looked at [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > greatest cooling liquid because it has a low specific heat capacity. > what's important is circulation /within/ the pump, not /without/. So on one hand, you're saying gasoline flowing through the pump is enough to cool it, and then you say gas isn't efficient enough at cooling?
Stop and think...maybe that's why they put them in the tank.
Put the ball peen hammer away.
jim beam - 05 Jun 2008 14:18 GMT >>> While it might be mounted throught the top of the tank, I believe in >>> most cases the pump is actully near the bottom of the tank. I looked at [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Put the ball peen hammer away. lack of comprehension. projection of own inadequacy. get help.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 05 Jun 2008 20:40 GMT >>> why is everyone so hung up on immersion? gasoline isn't exactly the >>> greatest cooling liquid because it has a low specific heat capacity. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> > lack of comprehension. projection of own inadequacy. get help. You can't even remember what you said 5 posts ago,,,
jim beam - 06 Jun 2008 06:40 GMT >>>> why is everyone so hung up on immersion? gasoline isn't exactly the >>>> greatest cooling liquid because it has a low specific heat capacity. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > You can't even remember what you said 5 posts ago,,, au contraire, that's /your/ problem. and worse, you can't even use google.
hachiroku - 06 Jun 2008 15:03 GMT >>> lack of comprehension. projection of own inadequacy. get help. >> >> You can't even remember what you said 5 posts ago,,, > > au contraire, that's /your/ problem. and worse, you can't even use google. Sure I can. Why would I have to?
jim beam - 07 Jun 2008 03:34 GMT >>>> lack of comprehension. projection of own inadequacy. get help. >>> >>> You can't even remember what you said 5 posts ago,,, >> au contraire, that's /your/ problem. and worse, you can't even use google. > > Sure I can. Why would I have to? so you don't make mistakes like not reading something pertinent to the article? or claiming someone said something when they didn't? checking facts? you know, little stuff like that.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 07 Jun 2008 05:47 GMT >>>>> lack of comprehension. projection of own inadequacy. get help. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > article? or claiming someone said something when they didn't? checking > facts? you know, little stuff like that. Don't have to. I'm dealing with someone who disregards the recommendations in his Owner's Manual.
C. E. White - 05 Jun 2008 14:38 GMT >>> While it might be mounted throught the top of the tank, I believe >>> in [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Stop and think...maybe that's why they put them in the tank. I think the chief reason they are in the tank is to prevent vapor lock. If the pumps are external they have to pull fuel through a line from the tank to the pump. This "suction" lowers the fuel pressure and can lead to vaporization in the lines, followed by vapor lock, and bad things. By placing the pump near the bottom of the tank, there is very little pressure drop from the fuel inlet to the pump, so little chance for vapor lock.
You could pull a line off the bottom of the tank to accomplish the same thing, EXCEPT, this would be a bad idea since everything in the bottom of the tank would go directly into the bottom opening. In the real world, the pump is slightly off the bottom, allowing water, rust, dirt, whatever to fall to the bottom and not be picked up.
My sister had a 1986 Jetta. It had two fuel pumps, an internal and an external. The external pump was a high pressure positive displacement pump needed to feed the Bosch CIS fuel injection system. The in-tank pump feed the external pump. She had the in-tank pump fail twice. Both times it was in hot weather. The car would start fine in the morning, but the first time you stopped in traffic during the heat of the day, the car would vapor lock and stall.
Ed
Ray O - 04 Jun 2008 07:28 GMT >> I don't remember what I said before, but the danger in burning out the >> fuel pump is if you let it run dry repeatedly. Toyota electric fuel [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Ed I couldn't open the link, but I'll take your word for it and eat some crow ;-)
 Signature
Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
C. E. White - 05 Jun 2008 12:07 GMT >>> I don't remember what I said before, but the danger in burning out >>> the fuel pump is if you let it run dry repeatedly. Toyota [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I couldn't open the link, but I'll take your word for it and eat > some crow Possum is better....
Ed
Ray O - 06 Jun 2008 03:29 GMT <snipped>
>> I couldn't open the link, but I'll take your word for it and eat some >> crow > > Possum is better.... > > Ed I haven't tried possum yet, but I'm game (so to speak)!
 Signature
Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Hachiroku ハチロク - 03 Jun 2008 02:31 GMT > P.S. Why is this cross posted to about a zillion newsgroups? 'Cause the OP did to begin with.
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 01:09 GMT >>> It's like every "factual" story in the media is just all spin. So, is this >>> guy an Oil Company shill trying to get us to fill-up and inflate the price [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > cover the fuel pump, it can fail prematurely. At $190~425 for a fuel pump. > it's probably cheaper to keep enough fuel in the tank to cool the pump. The overwhelming majority of the cooling (and *all* of the lubrication) of the pump and its internal components comes from the constant flow of fuel thru the pump and around each component. Very little cooling comes from the mostly stangant fuel surrounding the pump.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
jim beam - 03 Jun 2008 03:03 GMT >>>> It's like every "factual" story in the media is just all spin. So, >>>> is this guy an Oil Company shill trying to get us to fill-up and [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > fuel thru the pump and around each component. Very little cooling comes > from the mostly stangant fuel surrounding the pump. it's kind of hard for hachiroku to understand that
1. an electric motor with very limited load doesn't get very hot - certainly not hot enough to require liquid cooling.
it's harder yet for him to understand that
2. modern gasoline fuel injection pumps are typically "turbine" types, and the impeller doesn't wear, much like the water pump in the radiator circuit.
with old style pumps that used gear or scrolling vane pumping, lubrication, and limited life, was indeed an issue. modern pumps such as those used by honda last as long as the motor brushes, submerged or not.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 03 Jun 2008 04:34 GMT >> The overwhelming majority of the cooling (and *all* of the lubrication) >> of the pump and its internal components comes from the constant flow of [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the impeller doesn't wear, much like the water pump in the radiator > circuit. I used to build fuel pumps for Pratt & Whitney. Surprisingly similar design. They were obviously fuel cooled, too, but the difference was they were bathed in fuel at all times, not just with fuel passing through.
As usual, rules of thumb don't wash with you. I keep the pump covered.
jim beam - 03 Jun 2008 04:44 GMT >>> The overwhelming majority of the cooling (and *all* of the lubrication) >>> of the pump and its internal components comes from the constant flow of [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I used to build fuel pumps for Pratt & Whitney. translation: you used to assemble. other people, people who knew what they were doing, used to do the spec and design work.
> Surprisingly similar > design. They were obviously "obviously"
like you change your oil at only 3k miles because it "obviously" needs it!
> fuel cooled, too, but the difference was they > were bathed in fuel at all times, not just with fuel passing through. > > As usual, rules of thumb don't wash with you. I keep the pump covered. as usual, logic is an alien concept for you. tell me, have you been having problems with elephant footprints in your butter again?
Hachiroku ハチロク - 03 Jun 2008 05:31 GMT >> I used to build fuel pumps for Pratt & Whitney. > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > as usual, logic is an alien concept for you. tell me, have you been > having problems with elephant footprints in your butter again? <YAWN>
jim beam - 03 Jun 2008 05:40 GMT >>> I used to build fuel pumps for Pratt & Whitney. >> translation: you used to assemble. other people, people who knew what [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > <YAWN> so why do you bother? it's like watching a real-life, but very un-funny homer simpson.
hachiroku - 03 Jun 2008 20:02 GMT >>>> fuel cooled, too, but the difference was they were bathed in fuel at >>>> all times, not just with fuel passing through. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > so why do you bother? it's like watching a real-life, but very un-funny > homer simpson. When it comes between listening to you, or a former Toyota Factory Service rep, guess who wins? (HINT: it's not you!)
You already proved how much you know with your 12,000 mile whether-it- needs-it-or-not oil changes...
jim beam - 04 Jun 2008 03:22 GMT >>>>> fuel cooled, too, but the difference was they were bathed in fuel at >>>>> all times, not just with fuel passing through. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > You already proved how much you know with your 12,000 mile whether-it- > needs-it-or-not oil changes... get your facts straight - i'm not "whether-it-needs-it-or-not", that's you with your 3k mile oil changes.
i've done the testing and /determined/ my change interval. real data beats superstitious bullshit every time.
hachiroku - 04 Jun 2008 13:29 GMT >> When it comes between listening to you, or a former Toyota Factory >> Service rep, guess who wins? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > get your facts straight - i'm not "whether-it-needs-it-or-not", that's > you with your 3k mile oil changes. You're right. You wait until it's full of metal particles and starts to gel...
jim beam - 04 Jun 2008 14:12 GMT >>> When it comes between listening to you, or a former Toyota Factory >>> Service rep, guess who wins? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > You're right. You wait until it's full of metal particles and starts to > gel... how would /you/ know? you don't test! it's like saying you /know/ how much gas is in the tank without looking at the gauge!
and metal particles don't cause gelling - it's water vapor condensation acting with oil detergent from insufficient warmup - the same kind of reaction that creates mayonnaise. unless the filter is so clogged it's in bypass mode, or its got a defective drainback valve, metal particles reside in oil filters where it's safe.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 05 Jun 2008 02:06 GMT >>> get your facts straight - i'm not "whether-it-needs-it-or-not", that's >>> you with your 3k mile oil changes. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > bypass mode, or its got a defective drainback valve, metal particles > reside in oil filters where it's safe. You know, maybe you're right.
But I don't really care, becuase you're so friggin' smug about it. You have the personality of a Grizzly Bear. I say "I'm not always right, but I'm never wrong", but I'm kidding.
You think it applies to you as Gospel.
Get some civility.
John Henderson - 04 Jun 2008 21:34 GMT > You're right. You wait until it's full of metal particles and > starts to gel... jim's right. Real-world data relating wear to oil change frequency agree that wear is greatest for some time just after an oil change.
"Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil. This finding was unexpected and initially confusing (further inquiry suggested that the result was not so surprising, as many oil chemistries require time and temperature to enhance their effectiveness)." http://www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
"Contrary to common perception, changing oil more often than recommended has been shown to increase engine wear. An ongoing University of Michigan study has shown that the greatest wear occurs in the first 3000km of an oil's life in any engine!" http://tinyurl.com/32653c
John
Retired VIP - 05 Jun 2008 00:44 GMT >> You're right. You wait until it's full of metal particles and >> starts to gel... [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >John Those two links are very interesting. Who would have thought that dirty, old oil was better at lubricating an engine than clean fresh oil? How much sand would you recommend I add to the crankcase when I change my oil to eliminate that dreaded first 3000 km of wear? I wonder if just not replacing the oil filter would help reduce engine wear?
How did I get engines to last over 100,000 miles changing the oil and filter every 3,000 to 3,500 miles?
In case you haven't guessed, I think the above is BS. Looks like an April fool article to me.
Jack
Jeff - 05 Jun 2008 01:24 GMT >>> You're right. You wait until it's full of metal particles and >>> starts to gel... [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > wonder if just not replacing the oil filter would help reduce engine > wear? Only if the filter isn't working properly. Filters have tiny holes in them that dirt is able to flow through when a filter is new. After a while, the hole plug up, and the filter does a better job of filtering oil.
> How did I get engines to last over 100,000 miles changing the oil and > filter every 3,000 to 3,500 miles? You appear to be making the false assumption that the engine would not have lasted 100,000 mi if you changed the oil at say 5000 mi intervals. My Contour has gone over 150k mi with 5,000 mi intervals and synthetic oil.
> In case you haven't guessed, I think the above is BS. Looks like an > April fool article to me. > > Jack Hachiroku ハチロク - 05 Jun 2008 02:02 GMT > How did I get engines to last over 100,000 miles changing the oil and > filter every 3,000 to 3,500 miles? Three engines over 240,000 miles...
John Henderson - 05 Jun 2008 03:11 GMT > Those two links are very interesting. Who would have thought > that dirty, old oil was better at lubricating an engine than > clean fresh oil? How much sand would you recommend I add to > the crankcase when I change my oil to eliminate that dreaded > first 3000 km of wear? I wonder if just not replacing the > oil filter would help reduce engine wear? None of the above silliness. That's clearly not how it works.
> How did I get engines to last over 100,000 miles changing the > oil and filter every 3,000 to 3,500 miles? Easy. You've got only slightly more wear than you otherwise _could_ have.
> In case you haven't guessed, I think the above is BS. Looks > like an April fool article to me. You're welcome to cling onto your own preconceptions, of course.
I've followed manufacturer's recommendations for oil change periods always. The only car I ever had engine wear problems with at anything like such a low mileage (100,000) with was an air-cooled VW Beetle back in the early 60s, with oil changed at the recommended 3,000 miles. And that involved overheating in the dry tropics.
John
jim beam - 05 Jun 2008 05:01 GMT >>> You're right. You wait until it's full of metal particles and >>> starts to gel... [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > oil? How much sand would you recommend I add to the crankcase when I > change my oil to eliminate that dreaded first 3000 km of wear? a couple of grams. diamond is better than silica though. seriously, one of my old profs had done some research on using 0.25 micron diamond polishing dust in new engines. apparently it reduced wear and decreased friction substantially. wish i had the data.
> I > wonder if just not replacing the oil filter would help reduce engine > wear? > > How did I get engines to last over 100,000 miles changing the oil and > filter every 3,000 to 3,500 miles? you didn't - they lasted that long in spite of your treatment, not because of it.
> In case you haven't guessed, I think the above is BS. Looks like an > April fool article to me. swri is bogus???
C. E. White - 05 Jun 2008 12:26 GMT >>> You're right. You wait until it's full of metal particles and >>> starts to gel... [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > In case you haven't guessed, I think the above is BS. Looks like an > April fool article to me. I don't think it is a fake. I read a SAE Paper that drew similar conclusions but with a lot of caveats. As I recall the authors speculated that the new oil acted like a solvent and that it dissolved the wear reduction materials from the surface of components. This led to increase wear rates for those components.
You might want to read the follow abstracts of SAE papers:
http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2007-01-4133 http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2006-01-1099 http://www.sae.org/technical/papers/2003-01-3119
Regards,
Ed White
Hachiroku ハチロク - 05 Jun 2008 02:01 GMT >> You're right. You wait until it's full of metal particles and starts to >> gel... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > John But inconclusive:
Although based on limited data, the finding could be significant, and verification should be pursued. If the finding is verified, the mechanisms should be determined, and ramifications with respect to oil change intervals, filter involvement, and additive packages should be considered.
jim beam - 05 Jun 2008 04:46 GMT >> You're right. You wait until it's full of metal particles and >> starts to gel... [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > occurs in the first 3000km of an oil's life in any engine!" > http://tinyurl.com/32653c interesting links!
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 11:24 GMT >> it's kind of hard for hachiroku to understand that >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> the impeller doesn't wear, much like the water pump in the radiator >> circuit.
> I used to build fuel pumps for Pratt & Whitney. Surprisingly similar > design. They were obviously fuel cooled, too, but the difference was they > were bathed in fuel at all times, not just with fuel passing through. > > As usual, rules of thumb don't wash with you. I keep the pump covered. Never owned a vehicle with an in-line pump? :)
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
hachiroku - 03 Jun 2008 20:03 GMT >>> it's kind of hard for hachiroku to understand that >>> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') A long, long time ago, but they are a different design.
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 11:21 GMT >>>>> It's like every "factual" story in the media is just all spin. So, >>>>> is this guy an Oil Company shill trying to get us to fill-up and [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > 1. an electric motor with very limited load doesn't get very hot - > certainly not hot enough to require liquid cooling. About 75 watts. Not a lot, but not nothing either. It does indeed require cooling (and lubrication) by the liquid going thru it. Without that, indeed problems would quickly develop. Nice also to keep the two missing ingredient for explosions - oxygen and fuel vapors - away from the arcing of the brushes/commuator, eh?
> it's harder yet for him to understand that > > 2. modern gasoline fuel injection pumps are typically "turbine" types, > and the impeller doesn't wear, much like the water pump in the radiator > circuit. Maybe typically, but there are other types in common use - roller vane (at a noise disadvantage), and gerotor, which most of my experience is with (some GM platforms). I don't know if the industry has migrated mostly to one type since I left it 7 years ago, but I suspect there is still some mix of types.
> with old style pumps that used gear or scrolling vane pumping, > lubrication, and limited life, was indeed an issue. modern pumps such > as those used by honda last as long as the motor brushes, submerged or not. I guess what you're saying is that Honda uses mostly or totally turbine pumps?
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
jim beam - 03 Jun 2008 14:01 GMT >>>>>> It's like every "factual" story in the media is just all spin. So, >>>>>> is this guy an Oil Company shill trying to get us to fill-up and [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > About 75 watts. Not a lot, but not nothing either. It does indeed > require cooling (and lubrication) by the liquid going thru it. it can take advantage of it, but it doesn't /need/ it. windshield motors are higher wattage and have no cooling other than ambient.
> Without > that, indeed problems would quickly develop. well, it's not coils, bearing or commutator/brush problems. and it's only pump problems on gear or scroll types.
> Nice also to keep the two > missing ingredient for explosions - oxygen and fuel vapors - away from [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > mostly to one type since I left it 7 years ago, but I suspect there is > still some mix of types. may well be, but this was posted to a honda forum and i'm responding to that: honda use turbine type according to the service manuals i have.
>> with old style pumps that used gear or scrolling vane pumping, >> lubrication, and limited life, was indeed an issue. modern pumps such [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I guess what you're saying is that Honda uses mostly or totally turbine > pumps? apparently so.
the point is that the old fashioned generalizations of 30 years past are ignorant irrational b.s. for fuel pumps, just like all the ignorant irrational b.s. you get for oil change intervals. back in the 50's, oils were inferior and a 3k mile oil change interval was a good idea. today, with better combustion technology, better materials and better oil formulation, you can easily, reliably, have a 10k mile oil change for some cars, and yet we have ignorant irrational bullshitters falling over themselves to waste their money and bleat at anyone who dares bring a little updated fact into the room.
i understand that you cant force dumb people to be smart, but you can sure encourage them to be silent!
hachiroku - 03 Jun 2008 20:05 GMT >> About 75 watts. Not a lot, but not nothing either. It does indeed >> require cooling (and lubrication) by the liquid going thru it. > > it can take advantage of it, but it doesn't /need/ it. windshield > motors are higher wattage and have no cooling other than ambient. I would absolutely believe that you drive around with the washer button depressed constantly.
Whew, You're a piece of work...
jim beam - 04 Jun 2008 03:23 GMT >>> About 75 watts. Not a lot, but not nothing either. It does indeed >>> require cooling (and lubrication) by the liquid going thru it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I would absolutely believe that you drive around with the washer button > depressed constantly. eh? what makes the wipers move? do you have a pedal under the dash?
> Whew, You're a piece of work... hachiroku - 03 Jun 2008 20:05 GMT >> Maybe typically, but there are other types in common use - roller vane >> (at a noise disadvantage), and gerotor, which most of my experience is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > may well be, but this was posted to a honda forum and i'm responding to > that: honda use turbine type according to the service manuals i have. I didn't know Mad Magazine published Service Manuals...
hachiroku - 03 Jun 2008 20:06 GMT > a little updated fact into the room. > > i understand that you cant force dumb people to be smart, but you can > sure encourage them to be silent! So why don't you STFU, then?
jim beam - 04 Jun 2008 03:23 GMT >> a little updated fact into the room. >> >> i understand that you cant force dumb people to be smart, but you can >> sure encourage them to be silent! > > So why don't you STFU, then? three replies to the same post? what is it with you???
hachiroku - 04 Jun 2008 13:28 GMT >>> a little updated fact into the room. >>> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > three replies to the same post? what is it with you??? Three separate 'ideas'. Wanted to make sure you didn't get too confused. It seems to happen to you quite often.
jim beam - 04 Jun 2008 14:15 GMT >>>> a little updated fact into the room. >>>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Three separate 'ideas'. Wanted to make sure you didn't get too confused. > It seems to happen to you quite often. so you make three separate trips to the supermarket in one day? that's not too smart.
btw, don't accuse me of /your/ confusion problem. see above. thanks.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 05 Jun 2008 02:03 GMT >> Three separate 'ideas'. Wanted to make sure you didn't get too confused. >> It seems to happen to you quite often. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > btw, don't accuse me of /your/ confusion problem. see above. thanks. I don't have a problem. Yours is obvious:
http://www.blackfive.net/main/images/2007/11/07/head_up_ass.jpg
jim beam - 05 Jun 2008 04:12 GMT >>> Three separate 'ideas'. Wanted to make sure you didn't get too confused. >>> It seems to happen to you quite often. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I don't have a problem. but you do - you just posted three different replies the same comment - that's definitive evidence of a problem with your cognitive function.
> Yours is obvious: > > http://www.blackfive.net/main/images/2007/11/07/head_up_ass.jpg but you, somewhat hypocritically, just wrote, quote:
"Get some civility."
now, shall we go back to you supposedly not having a problem again?
Hachiroku ハチロク - 05 Jun 2008 05:21 GMT >>>> Three separate 'ideas'. Wanted to make sure you didn't get too >>>> confused. It seems to happen to you quite often. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > but you do - you just posted three different replies the same comment - > that's definitive evidence of a problem with your cognitive function. Not at all. I didn't want your head to explode by jamming three concepts into it at once.
And here I am trying to be considerate...
jim beam - 05 Jun 2008 05:40 GMT >>>>> Three separate 'ideas'. Wanted to make sure you didn't get too >>>>> confused. It seems to happen to you quite often. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > And here I am trying to be considerate... pfft.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 05 Jun 2008 05:49 GMT >>>>>> Three separate 'ideas'. Wanted to make sure you didn't get too >>>>>> confused. It seems to happen to you quite often. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > pfft. Bet you like hitting yourself in the head with a ball-peen hammer, too...
jim beam - 05 Jun 2008 13:26 GMT >>>>>>> Three separate 'ideas'. Wanted to make sure you didn't get too >>>>>>> confused. It seems to happen to you quite often. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Bet you like hitting yourself in the head with a ball-peen hammer, too... please try to think rationally for a moment - you're again projecting a problem /you/ have, onto a third party. in this case, a third party you've never met. is that the way you want to keep on living your life? at this juncture, professional help is probably your best option.
hachiroku - 05 Jun 2008 14:05 GMT >> Bet you like hitting yourself in the head with a ball-peen hammer, >> too... >> > please try to think rationally for a moment - you're again projecting a > problem /you/ have, onto a third party. Not at all. After all, you keep responding, don't you?
jim beam - 05 Jun 2008 14:08 GMT >>> Bet you like hitting yourself in the head with a ball-peen hammer, >>> too... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Not at all. After all, you keep responding, don't you? you'll never have a chance of fixing a problem if you don't realize you have one. you have a problem. go fix it.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 05 Jun 2008 20:38 GMT >>>> Bet you like hitting yourself in the head with a ball-peen hammer, >>>> too... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you'll never have a chance of fixing a problem if you don't realize you > have one. you have a problem. go fix it. I'm trying, but you keep coming back for more...
jim beam - 06 Jun 2008 06:40 GMT >>>>> Bet you like hitting yourself in the head with a ball-peen hammer, >>>>> too... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm trying, but you keep coming back for more... no, i'm serious. you need to work with a professional.
hachiroku - 06 Jun 2008 15:02 GMT >>> you'll never have a chance of fixing a problem if you don't realize you >>> have one. you have a problem. go fix it. >> >> I'm trying, but you keep coming back for more... > > no, i'm serious. you need to work with a professional. I am a professional. There's a name for it. Are you now using a body hammer with a sharp point on it?
jim beam - 07 Jun 2008 03:36 GMT >>>> you'll never have a chance of fixing a problem if you don't realize you >>>> have one. you have a problem. go fix it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I am a professional. There's a name for it. eh? you need to see a mental health professional. preferably one skilled in helping the educationally subnormal.
> Are you now using a body > hammer with a sharp point on it? Hachiroku ハチロク - 07 Jun 2008 05:46 GMT >>> no, i'm serious. you need to work with a professional. >> >> I am a professional. There's a name for it. > > eh? you need to see a mental health professional. preferably one skilled > in helping the educationally subnormal. I'm trying to help one. But he keeps bludgeoning himself with a blunt hammer.
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 23:18 GMT >>> 1. an electric motor with very limited load doesn't get very hot - >>> certainly not hot enough to require liquid cooling. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > well, it's not coils, bearing or commutator/brush problems. and it's > only pump problems on gear or scroll types. You are talking to the guy who designed and power limit-tested the EMI/RFI coils on a certain GM gerotor pump. Believe me: The wire was sized minimally for reliable life in fuel (for cooling) - 24 ga. solid copper magnet wire carrying approx. 5 amps. I also designed the plastic brush holder which also served as the motor/pump end cap. The "bearing" (bushing) on that end is merely a hole precision-molded into the plastic. The fuel is needed for lubrication for the bearings and shaft to last a reasonable period without the armature rattling around and crashing into the magnets. With fuel, bearing/shaft life is reasonable. Without fuel, it would not be. You would not get away with a metal shaft/plastic bushing bearing design on a windshield wiper motor - because of the lubrication, you can on a fuel pump.
The powders that go into the molded brushes are specifically designed for use in gasoline. You would *not* use the same materials in the brushes for use in gasoline as for use in air. High current-density brushes (like in starter motors) have a *lot* of copper in them. Fuel pump brushes are almost pure carbon/graphite.
>> Nice also to keep the two missing ingredient for explosions - oxygen >> and fuel vapors - away from the arcing of the brushes/commuator, eh? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > may well be, but this was posted to a honda forum and i'm responding to > that: honda use turbine type according to the service manuals i have.
>>> with old style pumps that used gear or scrolling vane pumping, >>> lubrication, and limited life, was indeed an issue. modern pumps >>> such as those used by honda last as long as the motor brushes, >>> submerged or not. The motor itself (bearings, brushes, armature) would not last long without the fuel. The turbine fan of course has no solid-to-solid rubbing/wear so I'll give you that.
>> I guess what you're saying is that Honda uses mostly or totally >> turbine pumps? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > over themselves to waste their money and bleat at anyone who dares bring > a little updated fact into the room. In general you may be right. However, there are some specific motors in very recent years that are extremely sensitive (in a negative way) to oil changes much beyond 3000 miles. Examples: Chrysler 2.7L, certain Toyota engines, and I believe certain Honda engines. Try running those on 10k miles change intervals, and they will totally sludge up and fail before 100k miles (typically 60-80k miles). I know almost nothing of the Toyota and Honda problems beyond what I read, but I am more familiar with the Chrysler 2.7L and its sludge/failure problems.
As for running pump with fuel low in the tank, I was glad to see Ray O. point out that many pumps are actually positioned very high in the tank so that it is impractical to keep the fuel high enough to guarantee that they're submerged all the time. I suspected as much, but wasn't sure, so I kept quiet on that point - until today.
> i understand that you cant force dumb people to be smart, but you can > sure encourage them to be silent! Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
jim beam - 04 Jun 2008 03:22 GMT >>>> 1. an electric motor with very limited load doesn't get very hot - >>>> certainly not hot enough to require liquid cooling. [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') while informative, there's nothing new in what you say. the vast majority of detroit's r&d over the last 20+ years has been into life limitation, and everything you describe is entirely a part of that process. the japanese otoh don't haven't had the same manufacturing objectives, or at least, if they do have an end life in mind, it's an order of magnitude further out than detroit's. [i think japanese intent is to simply *bore* you into new sales with gross reliability rather than bankrupt and disillusion which is how we do it.]
i think attributing detroit's faults to japanese vehicles is like punishing your daughter because you caught your son smoking - somewhat unjustified.
Bill Putney - 04 Jun 2008 11:25 GMT >> You are talking to the guy who designed and power limit-tested the >> EMI/RFI coils on a certain GM gerotor pump. Believe me: The wire was [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> brushes (like in starter motors) have a *lot* of copper in them. Fuel >> pump brushes are almost pure carbon/graphite.
>> In general you may be right. However, there are some specific motors >> in very recent years that are extremely sensitive (in a negative way) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> but I am more familiar with the Chrysler 2.7L and its sludge/failure >> problems.
>> As for running pump with fuel low in the tank, I was glad to see Ray >> O. point out that many pumps are actually positioned very high in the >> tank so that it is impractical to keep the fuel high enough to >> guarantee that they're submerged all the time. I suspected as much, >> but wasn't sure, so I kept quiet on that point - until today.
> while informative, there's nothing new in what you say. the vast > majority of detroit's r&d over the last 20+ years has been into life > limitation, and everything you describe is entirely a part of that > process. I didn't realize that I addressed that. Frankly, my working with the tier 1 manufacturers was the opposite - they wanted things to last as long as possible. I never saw pressure to design to fail soon after the warranty duration or things of that nature. However there were things, like annual 5% price cuts on parts forced on suppliers by Ford that had the unintended consequence of resulting in bad designs and bad/blatantly faked quality control on the line (think "Explorer/Firestone").
> the japanese otoh don't haven't had the same manufacturing > objectives, or at least, if they do have an end life in mind, it's an > order of magnitude further out than detroit's. [i think japanese intent > is to simply *bore* you into new sales with gross reliability rather > than bankrupt and disillusion which is how we do it.] Again, I didn't see that as an overt goal on the engineering side. But I did see cost cutting that had the same or more devastating results as an unintended consequence - the Ford dictated cost cuts that I mentioned and the GM PICOS program left over from the Lopez days. Uncontrolled MBA's are bad for a company overall.
> i think attributing detroit's faults to japanese vehicles is like > punishing your daughter because you caught your son smoking - somewhat > unjustified. I have no problem with you saying that - but be clear that you are not attributing that to me. Not saying you were, but someone might read it as such.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
jim beam - 04 Jun 2008 14:40 GMT >>> You are talking to the guy who designed and power limit-tested the >>> EMI/RFI coils on a certain GM gerotor pump. Believe me: The wire was [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > long as possible. I never saw pressure to design to fail soon after the > warranty duration or things of that nature. but did you not have mileage/hour lifetime specs? you pretty much have to if you're cutting everything down to the bleeding edge - what you were doing. otherwise you'd be there with a much more robust design able to withstand all operating conditions with 100% reliability.
> However there were things, > like annual 5% price cuts on parts forced on suppliers by Ford that had > the unintended consequence of resulting in bad designs and bad/blatantly > faked quality control on the line (think "Explorer/Firestone"). the exploder was an unspeakable shameful debacle. no vehicle should roll just because of a flat. period. firestone had nothing to do with it. and no vehicle should have the cabin crush, even if it does roll.
this behavior was known before the exploder even shipped. this whole thing was a disgraceful political whitewash with thousands of innocent american families killed or maimed. just because some unscrupulous jerk did the math on projected profits exceeding projected compensation payouts. the "investigation" was a sham and our representatives hosed us. if i had my way, there would be a.ses in the electric chair. enron pales in significance.
>> the japanese otoh don't haven't had the same manufacturing objectives, >> or at least, if they do have an end life in mind, it's an order of [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > attributing that to me. Not saying you were, but someone might read it > as such. no, not you. but the general bleating here before you came along was the usual misguided crap about immersion, with people citing failures for specific vehicles and trying to extrapolate to the whole population. i'm grateful you injected some reason into the debate.
Bill Putney - 05 Jun 2008 00:51 GMT >>>> You are talking to the guy who designed and power limit-tested the >>>> EMI/RFI coils on a certain GM gerotor pump. Believe me: The wire [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > were doing. otherwise you'd be there with a much more robust design > able to withstand all operating conditions with 100% reliability. IIRC, they were shooting for 200+k miles. Seriously - the pressure was not on us to design for limited life per-se. The direction was maximizing that life within the myriad of constraints that always come into play (cost, weight, volume, etc.). Unfortunately it seems the MBA's are always doing the prioritization of those constraints.
The quality and longevity of parts would have been better if tier 1 had not put so much emphasis on quality systems that were the buzz word of the decade and in the end only caused faking of data because the ever decreasing price structures (think Lopez,; think GM PICOS; think Ford demanding - no - unilaterally *taking* - 5% out of what they paid your for each part year after year after year with no basis in reality for doing so) wouldn't support the ever increasing complexity and costs of, in the majority of cases, no-value-added make-work CYA (for them) so-called quality documentation and paperwork (sorry for the run-on sentence). IOW, there was no way to meet the b.s. fake quality system requirements (unnecessarily increased overhead costs like crazy) *and* deliver a true quality product with the forced decrease in accounts receivables. The supplier had a choice to either fake it or go out of business (or possibly fake it *and* go out of business anyway - like the company I worked for eventually did).
The above is an over-simplification. I could add many details and war-stories that would reinforce what I'm saying.
>> However there were things, like annual 5% price cuts on parts forced >> on suppliers by Ford that had the unintended consequence of resulting [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > roll just because of a flat. period. firestone had nothing to do with > it. and no vehicle should have the cabin crush, even if it does roll. Fair enough. However, having been somewhat of an insider in the industry, the part about Firestone faking the QA data in production leading to bad product getting out the door has a tremendous ring of truth to my ears - someone making up b.s. for the public spin wouldn't have included that particular part if it had not been true, IMO. You know how it is when you hear a story that is part b.s. and part truth, and having had experience in the area, you can separate the two with surgical accuracy?
> this behavior was known before the exploder even shipped. this whole > thing was a disgraceful political whitewash with thousands of innocent > american families killed or maimed. Wow - was it really that many? I did not realize.
> just because some unscrupulous jerk > did the math on projected profits exceeding projected compensation > payouts. the "investigation" was a sham and our representatives hosed > us. if i had my way, there would be a.ses in the electric chair. enron > pales in significance. . . .
>>> i think attributing detroit's faults to japanese vehicles is like >>> punishing your daughter because you caught your son smoking - >>> somewhat unjustified.
>> I have no problem with you saying that - but be clear that you are not >> attributing that to me. Not saying you were, but someone might read it [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > for specific vehicles and trying to extrapolate to the whole population. > i'm grateful you injected some reason into the debate. Well thanks. I try.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Hachiroku ハチロク - 05 Jun 2008 01:53 GMT >> I have no problem with you saying that - but be clear that you are not >> attributing that to me. Not saying you were, but someone might read it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > usual misguided crap about immersion, with people citing failures for > specific vehicles and trying to extrapolate to the whole population. There must be some reason for going from in-line to in the tank.
My guess is to keep the pump bathed in gasoline.
So I do.
Bill Putney - 05 Jun 2008 02:14 GMT >>> I have no problem with you saying that - but be clear that you are not >>> attributing that to me. Not saying you were, but someone might read it [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > So I do. It's to save money for the manufacturer. Anytime they can have a supplier consolidate multiple parts/sub-assemblies into a single larger assembly, it is cheaper for vehicle manufacturer, which is actually just an assembler of the components and assemblies that the suppliers actually manufacture and ship to them. Think of the steps in assembling an in-line pump *plus* the sender unit *plus* the regulator *plus* the filter vs. assembling the one sender/pump/regulator/filter assembly into the tank. Plus the vehicle manufacturer has greatly cut their costs of negotiating and administering contracts by having one line item to deal with vs. many line items of the multiple components/subassemblies.
Keep in mind that the overhead and labor costs of the suppliers are much less than the cost of the vehicle manufacturers (for several reasons: union/non-union, regional labor rates, Mexico labor rates, etc.). So there is a net gain with having the supplier deal with the multiple parts than the vehicle manufacturer receiving them in, inventorying, unpacking, shuttling around, and installing in their plant. I know this for a fact first hand.
The bathing of the pump in fuel certainly doesn't do it any harm. But I strongly suspect that the overwhelmingly primary motivation on moving the pump to the tank was consolidating more parts into fewer assemblies to be installed into the vehicle.
Also, high level of integration and overall compactness is a real premium in cars these days (space and weight are at premium) - they're trying to pack 10 pounds of crap into a 5 pound bag so to speak.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
jim beam - 05 Jun 2008 04:12 GMT >>>> I have no problem with you saying that - but be clear that you are not >>>> attributing that to me. Not saying you were, but someone might read it [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > the pump to the tank was consolidating more parts into fewer assemblies > to be installed into the vehicle. no, its vapor lock avoidance. if the pump is at the top of a long suction column, the liquid in the column can separate and once there's vapor, pumping is seriously impaired. you could draw from the bottom of the tank, but then you get guaranteed particle blockage and much greater chance of damage.
> Also, high level of integration and overall compactness is a real > premium in cars these days (space and weight are at premium) - they're [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') Ray O - 05 Jun 2008 04:58 GMT <snipped>
>> The bathing of the pump in fuel certainly doesn't do it any harm. But I >> strongly suspect that the overwhelmingly primary motivation on moving the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > tank, but then you get guaranteed particle blockage and much greater > chance of damage. Vapor lock was not a problem when electric fuel pumps for fuel injected engines were not integrated in the fuel tank, so it doesn't make sense to make a change for a problem that didn't exist. Vapor lock could occur in the old mechanical fuel pumps that produced less than 10 PSI. Electric fuel pumps for fuel injected engines run over 40 PSI so vapor lock is not a problem.
Bill Putney's explanation is much more feasible.
 Signature
Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
jim beam - 05 Jun 2008 05:13 GMT > <snipped> >>> The bathing of the pump in fuel certainly doesn't do it any harm. But I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > fuel pumps for fuel injected engines run over 40 PSI so vapor lock is not a > problem. i'm talking about the sucking side, not the pushing side. if you suck hard enough on any liquid, the column separates. if it's a liquid full of volatiles, especially on a hot day at high altitude, you'll not have to suck very hard. hence you attempt to keep the column rise as close to zero as possible. putting the pump down in the tank achieves exactly that.
> Bill Putney's explanation is much more feasible. its definitely part of the picture, but it's not the full story - you could easily mount such an assembly on the engine.
Ray O - 05 Jun 2008 06:18 GMT >> <snipped> >>>> The bathing of the pump in fuel certainly doesn't do it any harm. But [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > zero as possible. putting the pump down in the tank achieves exactly > that. I have no experience with fluid dynamics so I'll have to take your word about the phenomenon. I would imagine that while 40+ PSI is enough to prevent vapor lock on the pushing side, it isn't enough to cause the column separation that you are describing since I've never heard of that happening either. Wouldn't increasing the diameter of the suction side reduce the pressure and therefore the tendency of the column to separte? If so, it seems like that would be a simpler solution than re-designing the fuel pump, tank, and mounting hardware.
In other words, it seems to me that lowering assembly costs would be the primary reason for mounting the fuel pump in the tank, and reducing the phenomenon you are describing would be a secondary side benefit.
 Signature
Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Commentator - 06 Jun 2008 01:48 GMT >>> <snipped> >>>>> The bathing of the pump in fuel certainly doesn't do it any harm. [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > reducing the phenomenon you are describing would be a secondary side > benefit. I would think not just assembly costs, but overall costs - a pump n the tank, I would think, should be able to utilize a cheaper and lighter casing as it does not need to stand up to the elements any longer. FWIW, it would also result in fewer connection points outside the tank, thereby allowing for fewer failure points.
Hachiroku ハチロク - 06 Jun 2008 04:39 GMT >> In other words, it seems to me that lowering assembly costs would be the >> primary reason for mounting the fuel pump in the tank, and reducing the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > it would also result in fewer connection points outside the tank, thereby > allowing for fewer failure points. Unfortunately, they are on the top of the tank, and dirt collects there. Then the dirt gets wet in the rain and corrodes the send/return tubes. I had to pull the tank on my Supra 3 times, and we used kid gloves around the fitting, since they were pretty 'tender'.
Bill Putney - 06 Jun 2008 10:44 GMT >>>> <snipped> >>>>>> The bathing of the pump in fuel certainly doesn't do it any harm. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > also result in fewer connection points outside the tank, thereby allowing > for fewer failure points. That too - yes - fewer connection points help in reliability *and* they help in initial assembly costs (the more important factor to the auto manufacturer) - less line items to receive in, inventory, control, move around, connect up, etc. in their plant.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
jim beam - 06 Jun 2008 06:41 GMT >>> <snipped> >>>>> The bathing of the pump in fuel certainly doesn't do it any harm. But [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > about the phenomenon. I would imagine that while 40+ PSI is enough to > prevent vapor lock on the pushing side, the pushing side isn't the problem - as you say, line pressure cures all.
> it isn't enough to cause the column > separation that you are describing since I've never heard of that happening > either. Wouldn't increasing the diameter of the suction side reduce the > pressure and therefore the tendency of the column to separte? If so, it > seems like that would be a simpler solution than re-designing the fuel pump, > tank, and mounting hardware. doesn't work, unfortunately.
> In other words, it seems to me that lowering assembly costs would be the > primary reason for mounting the fuel pump in the tank, and reducing the > phenomenon you are describing would be a secondary side benefit. other way about. it's got to work first, cut costs a [close] second. you could have longer suction lines with minimal rise back in the old days of block-mounted mechanical fuel pumps, but those tanks were open to atmosphere and thus not subject to vacuum like they are today. once you start sucking hard, especially on a warm day, from a tank that's already at negative pressure, you only need evolution of a small vapor bubble to cause a major fuel delivery problem. making sure practically /all/ the fuel delivery line is pressurized is the cure, and we now know the best way to achieve that.
Bill Putney - 05 Jun 2008 11:45 GMT >> <snipped> >>>> The bathing of the pump in fuel certainly doesn't do it any harm. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > its definitely part of the picture, but it's not the full story - you > could easily mount such an assembly on the engine. Heat is the enemy, and the primary cause of vapor lock - but - yes - the negative pressure also would contribute to vapor lock.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 06 Jun 2008 03:09 GMT ><snipped> >>> The bathing of the pump in fuel certainly doesn't do it any harm. But I [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >fuel pumps for fuel injected engines run over 40 PSI so vapor lock is not a >problem. Not totally true. Vapour lock/Cavitation on the INLET side of the pump HAS been a problem with electric fuel pumps, both carbureted and (more commonly) fuel injected. The fuel at reduced pressure on the inlet boils at a significantly reduced temperature - and pumps have a lot of trouble pumping vapour.
>Bill Putney's explanation is much more feasible. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Bill Putney - 05 Jun 2008 11:33 GMT >>>>> I have no problem with you saying that - but be clear that you are not >>>>> attributing that to me. Not saying you were, but someone might read it [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > the tank, but then you get guaranteed particle blockage and much greater > chance of damage. Most in-lines I've seen were near the fuel tank (to - as you say - avoid vapor lock). The integration of the pump into the sending unit had different motivations than what were already met with in-line pumps.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
C. E. White - 02 Jun 2008 14:14 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below >> halfway, instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Not because you could run out of gas and get stranded but because >> repeatedly running on low tends to ruin the fuel pump.
> It's like every "factual" story in the media is just all spin. So, > is this guy an Oil Company shill trying to get us to fill-up and > inflate the price of gasoline? A futures trader? This angle actually could have some validity. Back during the gasoline crisis of the 70's, related to the Arab oil embargo, I heard it claimed that one of the factors that caused the shortage was public hysteria. Instead of the average car running around with a half a tank of gas, people suddenly tried to keep their tanks near full. This caused a surge in demand, which made the shortage far worse.
I can see where someone speculating in gasoline futures would like to encourage people to increase the amount of gas they are buying in the short run to keep the demand up long enough so that they can get out with a big fat profit. However, if you are following this strategy, you need to get out before people revert to old habits...
Ed
hachiroku - 02 Jun 2008 15:32 GMT >> It's like every "factual" story in the media is just all spin. So, >> is this guy an Oil Company shill trying to get us to fill-up and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of gas, people suddenly tried to keep their tanks near full. This > caused a surge in demand, which made the shortage far worse. I had a friend who would run his tank near empty all the time. He would stop and put in $2 every so often just to keep the car running.
I always kept my tank near full all the time (still do). I stop and put in (now, $6) every so often.
What's the difference?
(HINT: What happens when either one of us runs out of money?)
Mark - 02 Jun 2008 16:45 GMT If you're stopping daily to get a couple of gallons vs. once a week to fill up, then I bet that you are using more fuel (and money) stopping/ starting the engine and putting wear on the motor than you using by carrying around an extra half-tank of gas (40 lb.) on average.
Since the first of year, I am driving <600 miles a month, it feels great to go three weeks in the tC without a fill-up :-)
> >> It's like every "factual" story in the media is just all spin. So, > >> is this guy an Oil Company shill trying to get us to fill-up and [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > (HINT: What happens when either one of us runs out of money?) Hachiroku ハチロク - 03 Jun 2008 04:31 GMT > If you're stopping daily to get a couple of gallons vs. once a week to > fill up, then I bet that you are using more fuel (and money) stopping/ [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Since the first of year, I am driving <600 miles a month, it feels great > to go three weeks in the tC without a fill-up :-) I made it up to 31 MPG with the tC...
Driving like an old man with a hat...
WTF fun is that?!?!
So, to make up for it I took a 95 MPH rip on the highway Saturday...
Retired VIP - 02 Jun 2008 19:05 GMT >>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below >>> halfway, instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >of gas, people suddenly tried to keep their tanks near full. This >caused a surge in demand, which made the shortage far worse. Think about what you just said Ed. Why would burning 5 gallons of fuel out of a full tank increase demand over burning 5 gallons out of an empty tank? 5 gallons is 5 gallons.
>I can see where someone speculating in gasoline futures would like to >encourage people to increase the amount of gas they are buying in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Ed C. E. White - 02 Jun 2008 19:29 GMT >>>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below >>>> halfway, instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > fuel out of a full tank increase demand over burning 5 gallons out of > an empty tank? 5 gallons is 5 gallons. You are missing the point. While it is true that people didn't use any more fuel because they were keeping their tanks three quarters full instead of half full, it is also true that the sudden increase in the amount of gas being "stored" in the tanks of millions of car created a temporary supply problem. Suppose tomorrow everyone in America decided they needed to fill-up (all on the same day). Don't you suppose that might create a temporary shortage? This is supposedly one of the factor that lead to long gas lines during the fuel crisis of the 70's. When the oil embargo was announced, some people who might have normally waited a few days until they purchased gas ran down and purchased gas immediately. This sudden surge caused some stations to run out. Other noticed that stations were running short, so they too decided they needed to go buy gas immediately, resulting in more station running short. This was only a temporary problem but the up tick in demand was enough to upset the normal fuel supply system. It took day and alternate fueling rules to get the daily demand back into line with the ability of the system to meet the daily demand. Of course eventually demand dropped back to the normal and as people dropped back to their old habit of running closer to half a tank on average, there was actually a dip in demand.
Ed
>>I can see where someone speculating in gasoline futures would like to >>encourage people to increase the amount of gas they are buying in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >>Ed Retired VIP - 03 Jun 2008 02:31 GMT >>>>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below >>>>> halfway, instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >(all on the same day). Don't you suppose that might create a temporary >shortage? I suppose it might. About the same as if everyone decided to buy a dozen eggs from the grocery store. That wouldn't reflect anything except a spike in gasoline or egg demand. Once people had filled their tanks or gotten their eggs, demand would return to normal.
> This is supposedly one of the factor that lead to long gas lines >during the fuel crisis of the 70's. When the oil embargo was announced, some [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Ed No, the fuel shortage was caused by Nixon's price controls. Nothing else. Once the price controls were removed supply came back to normal but the prices were higher.
The oil embargo was imposed by the middle east cartel. We only got about 25% of our oil from them at the time so the embargo hurt and put a crimp in supplies for a while but we could have lived through it. The oil companies wanted to let the laws of supply and demand work to balance it out. But the congress insisted that "We Have To Do Something" so Nixon put price controls on almost everything made from crude. If you can't make a profit supplying something, then were is the incentive to supply it?
The funny thing was that oil tankers were laying at anchor just off Houston waiting for the price of crude to go up, I saw pictures. There was no shortage of crude because most of the middle east countries ignored the embargo and what short fall we had was made up by other suppliers.
Jack
C. E. White - 03 Jun 2008 20:47 GMT >>>>>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below >>>>>> halfway, instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > else. Once the price controls were removed supply came back to normal > but the prices were higher. Nice theory, but the wage and price controls had been in effect for several years before the arab oil embargo tirggered the first wave of gas shortages with the long lines. I had no problems buying gas in 1971, 1972, and most of 1973. I am only claiming that the sudden (but temporary) up tick in demand related to people trying to keep their tanks full made the problem worse. It was not the root cause, but a factor that contributed to the long gas lines that appeared quickly after the Arab oil emargo started.
> The oil embargo was imposed by the middle east cartel. We only got > about 25% of our oil from them at the time so the embargo hurt and put > a crimp in supplies for a while but we could have lived through it. We did live throught it, but not without the pain of long lines at the stations. Suppose someone cut off 25% of our oil today? How long would the lines be tomorrow?
> The oil companies wanted to let the laws of supply and demand work to > balance it out. But the congress insisted that "We Have To Do > Something" so Nixon put price controls on almost everything made from > crude. If you can't make a profit supplying something, then were is > the incentive to supply it? Again, a fine theory, but the price controls were in effect for a couple of years before the long lines appeared. I do agree that the price controls had an effect. However, the controls did not apply to imported oil. They did discourage US exploration and production, so they increased our dependence on foreign oil, which made the effects of the Arab oil embargo worse. BTW, oil prices were not actually frozen under the Nixon policy - "Nixon's cost of living council creates a price ceiling that allows stored oil to be sold at 35 cents above the current prices and that newly produced oil could be sold at uncontrolled prices. " Price controls on domestic crude oil actually were actually more restrictive after the 1973 oil crisis had passed. I suppose you could blame the 1979 shortages on these controls, but I can't seee ow you can blame the 1973 crisis on the wage and price controls since they didn't actually control oil prices.
> The funny thing was that oil tankers were laying at anchor just off > Houston waiting for the price of crude to go up, I saw pictures. > There was no shortage of crude because most of the middle east > countries ignored the embargo and what short fall we had was made up > by other suppliers. Well now you are saying there was no shortage....please explain. I've heard the story of tankers sitting off the coast from others (one ex-Coast Guard guy in particular), so I assume it is true. But isn't that how an emargo works? When the Arabs imposed their embargo, some of their oil was in tankers under contract to them, so they stopped deliveries until their demands were met, or when they needed the money (which is what actually ended the embargo).
Ed
Commentator - 02 Jun 2008 23:47 GMT >>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below >>> halfway, instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > of gas, people suddenly tried to keep their tanks near full. This > caused a surge in demand, which made the shortage far worse. After an initial surge in demand to top off, assuming no changes in driving behaviour, demand would quickly return to normal. Sustained increased demand would have had to be caused by hoarding OUTSIDE of what you can fit in your tank.
Simple math.
> I can see where someone speculating in gasoline futures would like to > encourage people to increase the amount of gas they are buying in the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ed pakeha@not.a.real.address.com - 03 Jun 2008 01:46 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, >> instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >your skin? It's cancer! My favorites are the ads for Lunesta: Side effects >many include drowsiness! WTF? Sorry for the rant........... I've always found it less expensive to fill the top of the tank than the whole tank. Maybe I'm just a little anal about having enough fuel to get home when some idiot crashes and burns during my commute...
SteveL
ToMh - 02 Jun 2008 17:26 GMT On Jun 2, 2:12 am, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <N00One...@NoWhere.Com> wrote:
> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead > of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Not because you could run out of gas and get stranded but because repeatedly > running on low tends to ruin the fuel pump. The fuel pump is like any other fluid pump. it requires the liquid running through it to lubricate and cool it. If you run a pump dry, its seals can burn out fast. But as long as there is fluid running through it, it will be fine. So as long as there is gas running through the pump, it won't get damaged, but I could certainly see how it could be damaged if you let it run out of gas. Just having a low tank, without the pump running dry, can't possibly cause any problems.
Retired VIP - 02 Jun 2008 19:11 GMT >On Jun 2, 2:12 am, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <N00One...@NoWhere.Com> >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >tank, without the pump running dry, can't possibly cause any >problems. Hmmm.....What if the pump was getting gulps of air due to the gas sloshing around in a nearly empty tank? Is the pump pickup located in a well or a low point in the tank?
Jack
ToMh - 02 Jun 2008 20:05 GMT On Jun 2, 10:11 am, Retired VIP <jackj.extradots....@windstream.net> wrote:
> >On Jun 2, 2:12 am, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <N00One...@NoWhere.Com> > >wrote: [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Jack If it's getting gulps of air then that would be a problem, but the OP was talking about 1/4 tank!.
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 01:56 GMT >> On Jun 2, 2:12 am, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <N00One...@NoWhere.Com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > sloshing around in a nearly empty tank? Is the pump pickup located in > a well or a low point in the tank? The pump will never not see fuel inside. The pumping section is at the very bottom of the pump, so the column of fuel will be "dancing" on the pumping element (think of a turbine blade). The only part (in an empty tank) filled with air will be the pickup tube.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 01:51 GMT > On Jun 2, 2:12 am, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <N00One...@NoWhere.Com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > running through it to lubricate and cool it. If you run a pump dry, > its seals can burn out fast. No. There are no dynamic seals in fuel pumps like in a typical automotive water pump. Running dry (not a credible situation in general) would not affect case seals (which are static crimped seals).
> But as long as there is fluid running > through it, it will be fine. So as long as there is gas running > through the pump, it won't get damaged, but I could certainly see how > it could be damaged if you let it run out of gas... Not likely since the pumping section is at the bottom of the pump, so when you "run out of gas", there is a column of fuel extending from the pumping section of the pump (at its very bottom), thru the pump, all the way to the fuel rail and injectors. Granted that column of fuel is not moving, but it's there nonetheless. And the engine dies, and the computer turns the pump off in a matter of seconds. No real chance for significant damage from heat or lack of lubrication.
> Just having a low > tank, without the pump running dry, can't possibly cause any > problems. I'll buy that.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
ToMh - 03 Jun 2008 18:14 GMT > > On Jun 2, 2:12 am, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <N00One...@NoWhere.Com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > automotive water pump. Running dry (not a credible situation in > general) would not affect case seals (which are static crimped seals).
> > But as long as there is fluid running > > through it, it will be fine. So as long as there is gas running [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > I'll buy that. Thanks for the info. It sounds like you'd have to practically let all the gas evaporate before it causes a problem.
Tony Hwang - 04 Jun 2008 15:33 GMT >>>On Jun 2, 2:12 am, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <N00One...@NoWhere.Com> >>>wrote: [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > Thanks for the info. It sounds like you'd have to practically let all > the gas evaporate before it causes a problem. Hi, In cold weather too low fuel in the tank causes condensation which leads to water. There is high possibility at the bottom of tank is some water. I never go lower than 1/4 full on gauge at any time year round. If liquid sloshes around, there is a possibility the pump can run dry momentarily or water can be sucked in. Also there could be some rust particles/debris which could cause clog. Just my two bits.
Bill Putney - 05 Jun 2008 01:04 GMT >>>> On Jun 2, 2:12 am, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <N00One...@NoWhere.Com> >>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > momentarily or water can be sucked in. Also there could be some rust > particles/debris which could cause clog. Just my two bits. Sloshing around is no problem. Copying my comments from a previous post 9that you inluded above):
>>> Not likely since the pumping section is at the bottom of the pump, so >>> when you "run out of gas", there is a column of fuel extending from the >>> pumping section of the pump (at its very bottom), thru the pump, all the
>>> way to the fuel rail and injectors... As far as condensation - it is not the problem it used to be. It used to be that the tank was "open" to the air, and was able to "breathe" as the ambient temperatures warmed and cooled (and air moved in and out of the tank) with time of day. This brought in a continuous fresh supply of moisture-laden air to condense out in the tank. With sealed tanks, you do get moisture coming in, but only as the tank emptied as the level dropped. That amount of moisture is a fraction of what would come in in a "breathing" system. The small amount generally does not overload the fuel and is able to be handled without noticeable symptoms. In some colder climates, it might be advisable to put in a can of Dri-Gas periodically. Also - don't forget plastic tanks (that don't rust.
However - it's certainly fine with you keeping your level above 1/4 - no harm, and arguably some extra margin against problems.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Tony Hwang - 05 Jun 2008 03:29 GMT >>>>> On Jun 2, 2:12 am, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <N00One...@NoWhere.Com> >>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my > address with the letter 'x') Hmmm, I don't think you have an experience living in an extreme cold climate. Ever used a gas line anti freeze? Ever experienced frozen up carburetor in old days? You have to open the cap to fill, some times it rains/snows, etc. Tank is metal, when cold it always causes cendensation. Does your car have insulated tank? I am talking about at least -30 degree temperature. I guarantee any fuel tank has some water at the bottom. Sloshing around means driving in rough terrain, winding mountain roads, up and down hill, etc. Just running low on fuel too often is generally bad thing to do. What if you got stuck in a traffic jam? You may run out of gas, right?
Bill Putney - 05 Jun 2008 11:28 GMT >>>>>> On Jun 2, 2:12 am, "Don't Taze Me, Bro!" <N00One...@NoWhere.Com> >>>>>> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > hill, etc. Just running low on fuel too often is generally bad thing to > do. What if you got stuck in a traffic jam? You may run out of gas, right? You must have not read where I wrote in what you quoted "...The small amount generally does not overload the fuel and is able to be handled without noticeable symptoms. In some colder climates, it might be advisable to put in a can of Dri-Gas periodically. Also - don't forget plastic tanks (that don't rust..."
Tanks today are plastic, right? I agree that in the past it would have been a much bigger problem.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
DIYBOI - 02 Jun 2008 23:27 GMT When my Civic tank is low, it takes a lot longer to start. I've read different theories on why. One is that a one-way valve on the fuel pump seals better when it is lubricated by fuel, so gas stays in the line. Whatever the reason, keeping the tank full puts less stress on the battery, fuel pump, and starter.
Elle - 03 Jun 2008 00:13 GMT I have noticed a slight delay in starting when the tank is low (say 1/8 tank and less) on my 91 Civic as well.
> When my Civic tank is low, it takes a lot longer to start. > I've read [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > less stress on > the battery, fuel pump, and starter. pakeha@not.a.real.address.com - 03 Jun 2008 01:36 GMT >Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead >of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Not because you could run out of gas and get stranded but because repeatedly >running on low tends to ruin the fuel pump. I brought that very idea up to an idiot on a forum, he didn't believe me at all. I don't know anything, I just work on electric motors for a living, no cooling, no working...
SteveL
Gib Bogle - 03 Jun 2008 08:45 GMT > Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead > of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,361347,00.html Ah, Faux News, or is it f.cks News? Our favourite TV tabloid.
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 11:31 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, >> instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ah, Faux News, or is it f.cks News? Our favourite TV tabloid. Any article on the subject on any news outlet says essentially the same thing. It's all about parroting. If Fox News said that the stop sign is red, it would not make the stop sign not be red. Get it?
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
George - 03 Jun 2008 13:06 GMT >> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, >> instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and >> there... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,361347,00.html > > Ah, Faux News, or is it f.cks News? Our favourite TV tabloid. The article is a reprint from the associated press. So carry your sarcasm to the lefty loons. The only controversy in the whole article is the single sentence that claims fuel pumps fail by running low on gas. Its not exactly a wrong statement; its just an opinion from someone who believes it to be true. This has been tossed around forever and nobody is going to change their mind about what causes fuel pump failure. My fuel pump has lasted over 200k miles so far. I thought it would last about 100k. When it quits, I'll say it has served it life.
Retired VIP - 03 Jun 2008 16:51 GMT >The only controversy in the whole article is the single >sentence that claims fuel pumps fail by running low on gas. Its not exactly >a wrong statement; its just an opinion from someone who believes it to be >true. Are you saying that it is okay for a reporter to publish incorrect information just as long as he believes it? Or are you saying that it is okay for a reporter to publish his opinion as fact? What ever happened to checking your facts before publishing?
E Meyer - 03 Jun 2008 17:57 GMT On 6/3/08 10:51 AM, in article kspa449vsa7f1g1rusjb9d523p4ta9r3n7@4ax.com,
>> The only controversy in the whole article is the single >> sentence that claims fuel pumps fail by running low on gas. Its not exactly [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > is okay for a reporter to publish his opinion as fact? What ever > happened to checking your facts before publishing? It went out the same day they started soliciting advertising for the evening news and turned it into a for-profit operation. Just don't do it with politics & get caught (remember Dan Rather?).
still just me - 03 Jun 2008 19:57 GMT >Are you saying that it is okay for a reporter to publish incorrect >information just as long as he believes it? Or are you saying that it >is okay for a reporter to publish his opinion as fact? What ever >happened to checking your facts before publishing? I have never, ever read a news story or seen one on TV where I was intimately familiar with the facts of the story that I didn't see glaring errors in either the facts or simply the selection of facts they chose to present (distorting the true story). Reporter incompetence is the issue at least half the time (not even checking facts).
My observations have led me to believe that every news and newspaper story is most likely similarly inaccurate.
Bill Putney - 03 Jun 2008 23:29 GMT > Are you saying that it is okay for a reporter to publish incorrect > information just as long as he believes it? Or are you saying that it > is okay for a reporter to publish his opinion as fact? What ever > happened to checking your facts before publishing? Pfft! That's old school.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Gib Bogle - 03 Jun 2008 21:56 GMT >>> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, >>> instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > The article is a reprint from the associated press. So carry your sarcasm > to the lefty loons. You don't have to be a lefty loon to despise the low standards of Fox. You do have to be a righty loon to fail to see them.
Craig M - 03 Jun 2008 12:47 GMT I live on the Gulf coast, and this time of year, we keep our tanks full, never know when your going to have to pack up the wife, dogs, clothes, ect and make a run for it, still have memories of Rita back in 05 arround here in Texas. Keep tank full, and eye to the sky.
> Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, > instead of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Not because you could run out of gas and get stranded but because > repeatedly running on low tends to ruin the fuel pump. None4You - 04 Jun 2008 04:57 GMT >I live on the Gulf coast, and this time of year, we keep our tanks full, >never know when your going to have to pack up the wife, dogs, clothes, ect [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >later . Or injectors plugging or stuck. The filter had nothing in it. >Vehicle is good to go. jim beam - 04 Jun 2008 05:10 GMT >> I live on the Gulf coast, and this time of year, we keep our tanks full, >> never know when your going to have to pack up the wife, dogs, clothes, ect [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> later . Or injectors plugging or stuck. The filter had nothing in it. >> Vehicle is good to go. of course it is - that whole charade was just the dealer looking to jerk off toyota or you for the replacement. running dry isn't going to put holes in a filter - nor will particles. and particles don't suddenly appear when the tank is dry - they're there all the time.
as for the rest of the pump, running dry tends to stop once the engine stops running, so it's not like the motor has 100+ hours of non-fueled running in it. in fact, there was probably more contamination to the system from disassembly than anything else!
next time, if there is a next time, just gas the thing up and forget about it.
None4You - 04 Jun 2008 06:10 GMT >>> I live on the Gulf coast, and this time of year, we keep our tanks full, >>> never know when your going to have to pack up the wife, dogs, clothes, [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >around on the tank side of the filter. I could see those as it was a see >through filter. You don't suppose that could happen in a truck or car. Ray O - 04 Jun 2008 07:22 GMT <snipped>
>>Look, the low fuel light stayed on when he ran it out of gas. I couldnt >>figure how to reset it. And under warranty your hands are tied somewhat if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >>around on the tank side of the filter. I could see those as it was a see >>through filter. You don't suppose that could happen in a truck or car. The low fuel light sensor is separate from the fuel pump and fuel level sender.
Rusty fuel tank particles will not cut a hole in a Toyota fuel filter although it could theoretically clog it. It is very unusual for a fuel tank from the inside out, since the fuel acts as a rust inhibitor. When fuel tanks rust to the point of perforation, it is generally from the outside in, not inside out. If there was rust in your Goldwing's fuel tank, I'd guess that the tank was left empty for a long time or the particles were introduced from an exterior source like a rusty gas can. Gas stations generally filter the fuel before delivering it to vehicles, so it is not likely that the rust came from the gas station.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Tegger - 05 Jun 2008 01:00 GMT > Gas stations generally filter the fuel before > delivering it to vehicles, so it is not likely that the rust came from > the gas station. Gas dispensers (pumps) have a sort of basket filter and nothing more. The screen on the filter is fairly crude, maybe four times smaller than a window screen. Small rust particles could easily get through that, but would be caught by the sock, which is a much finer mesh than the pump filter.
Having said all that, the gas station tanks I've seen appear not to be made of metal. Maybe they do have a metal inner lining. But if they did, these would either be awfully big stampings or have lots of leak-prone weld seams. Anybody know for sure?
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Ray O - 05 Jun 2008 03:30 GMT >> Gas stations generally filter the fuel before >> delivering it to vehicles, so it is not likely that the rust came from [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > would either be awfully big stampings or have lots of leak-prone weld > seams. Anybody know for sure? 2 big fuel dispenser brands around here are Gilbarco and Tokheim, and it looks most of their models take fuel filters like these http://www.jmesales.com/department/1888/1/Filters.aspx so my guess is that in addtion to the pickup screen/sock, they also have a replaceable filter. Of course, that assumes that gas stations replace the filters on a periodic basis and that there is no bypass mechanism if flow through the filter is diminished.
The tanks being installed around here appear to be made of fiberglass like the ones on this site: http://www.rng.com/rng/zcl/rngss31.html
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
jim beam - 05 Jun 2008 04:24 GMT >>> Gas stations generally filter the fuel before >>> delivering it to vehicles, so it is not likely that the rust came from [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > The tanks being installed around here appear to be made of fiberglass like > the ones on this site: http://www.rng.com/rng/zcl/rngss31.html and around here. there's been a huge tank replacement program here in california for some years now. very few metals tanks left, if at all.
clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 06 Jun 2008 03:06 GMT >>>> Gas stations generally filter the fuel before >>>> delivering it to vehicles, so it is not likely that the rust came from [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >and around here. there's been a huge tank replacement program here in >california for some years now. very few metals tanks left, if at all. Most gastanks (storage/underground) are fiberglass, but one of the biggest manufacturers of tanks in Canada, Clemmer Industries is about a mile from my home and made 10s of thousands of steel underground storage tanks (as well as above ground) over the years. There are still some double wall steel tanks made, but I think they are all for above ground use.
They make the glass ones now too - I think they are wound glass. ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
Tegger - 06 Jun 2008 00:37 GMT >>> Gas stations generally filter the fuel before >>> delivering it to vehicles, so it is not likely that the rust came [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > 2 big fuel dispenser brands around here are Gilbarco and Tokheim, In my neck of the wodds it seems to be mostly Gilbarco.
> and > it looks most of their models take fuel filters like these > http://www.jmesales.com/department/1888/1/Filters.aspx These look nothing like the pump filters I was shown. The filters I saw more resembled a larger and somewhat coarser version of the basket filter that goes in some Toyotas' windshield washer reservoir filler necks.
> so my guess is > that in addtion to the pickup screen/sock, they also have a > replaceable filter. Of course, that assumes that gas stations replace > the filters on a periodic basis and that there is no bypass mechanism > if flow through the filter is diminished. It was explained to me that the primary problem with underground tanks is not dirt or rust, but stirred-up water in freshly-filled tanks. Apparently tanks are supposed to be taken offline for a couple of hours to let water settle out, but nobody actually does that. Gas stations do not filter water out, it seems.
> The tanks being installed around here appear to be made of fiberglass > like the ones on this site: http://www.rng.com/rng/zcl/rngss31.html I see similar ones, but the ones I see are a much lighter green, even almost white.
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Ray O - 06 Jun 2008 03:37 GMT >>>> Gas stations generally filter the fuel before >>>> delivering it to vehicles, so it is not likely that the rust came [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > I see similar ones, but the ones I see are a much lighter green, even > almost white. I suspect that most, if not all, of the underground tanks around here were changed over to the fiberglass kind because the penalties and cleanup costs from a leaking underground storage tank could easily exceed the cost of installing a newer tank with leak detection sensors.
It doesn't look like any tanks are taken off-line here either, probably because they don't want to lose the income.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Retired VIP - 06 Jun 2008 15:46 GMT >>>>> Gas stations generally filter the fuel before >>>>> delivering it to vehicles, so it is not likely that the rust came [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] >It doesn't look like any tanks are taken off-line here either, probably >because they don't want to lose the income. Several years ago (>10?) the EPA required all underground tanks that were of steel construction be replaced with fiberglass. They had to be put into vaults that would contain any leakage and they had to have remote monitoring of product and/or leak detection.
The company I used to work for had underground diesel storage tanks for their emergency generators. Almost all of them had to be pulled and replaced. The company elected to replace them with above-ground vaults. They also installed Veeder-Root (sp) remote monitoring stations.
I would be very surprised if you could find any metal underground storage tanks at any gas stations today in the USofA.
Jack
Tomes - 07 Jun 2008 01:56 GMT "Ray O" ...
> I suspect that most, if not all, of the underground tanks around here were > changed over to the fiberglass kind because the penalties and cleanup [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > It doesn't look like any tanks are taken off-line here either, probably > because they don't want to lose the income. I see all the time stations with a tanker filling up the tank in the ground and half a dozen cars filling up at the pumps at that same moment. It is one of the things I look for in pulling into a station and hoping that one did not just leave. Tomes
Tegger - 07 Jun 2008 02:56 GMT > "Ray O" ... >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > and hoping that one did not just leave. > Tomes Me too, actually. I'll even go up to the driver and ask him if he's filling the tanks that hold what I want.
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clare at snyder dot ontario dot canada - 05 Jun 2008 01:32 GMT ><snipped> >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >generally filter the fuel before delivering it to vehicles, so it is not >likely that the rust came from the gas station. Actually, there have been SIGNIFICANT issues with both gas tanks and oil pans rusting out from the inside. Ands some cars have a separate low fuel warning switch, while others, apparently, use the fuel level sensor ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
C. E. White - 05 Jun 2008 12:55 GMT > The low fuel light sensor is separate from the fuel pump and fuel > level sender. Are you sure about that? As I recall the wiring diagram for the SO's RAV4, there is not a separate feed for a low fuel level switch. I'll check the wiring diagrams this evening when I get home.
Ed
Ray O - 06 Jun 2008 03:31 GMT >> The low fuel light sensor is separate from the fuel pump and fuel level >> sender. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Ed I am pretty sure but not positive that there is a separate sensor for the low fuel warning light.
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Ray O (correct punctuation to reply)
Ed White - 10 Jun 2008 03:21 GMT >>> The low fuel light sensor is separate from the fuel pump and fuel level >>> sender. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I am pretty sure but not positive that there is a separate sensor for the > low fuel warning light. Well it looks like we are both right...at least in a way.
For older Camrys there is a low fuel switch, but it is part of the fuel level sender unit (not separately replaceable). For the newer RAV4s, there is not a separate switch at all (just two wires feed the computer).
Ed
Bill Putney - 04 Jun 2008 11:41 GMT >>> I live on the Gulf coast, and this time of year, we keep our tanks >>> full, never know when your going to have to pack up the wife, dogs, [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > next time, if there is a next time, just gas the thing up and forget > about it. Exactly.
Plus, as I've previously stated, the pumps are designed with the pumping section at the very bottom. When you run it out of gas, there is a solid column of fuel all the way from the pumping section, thru the pump, to the injectors. The air starts at the very bottom of the pumping section, with the column of fuel "dancing" on the pumping element (whatever it might be) - and that's even if the pump keeps running - which it doesn't.
Bill Putney (To reply by e-mail, replace the last letter of the alphabet in my address with the letter 'x')
Spam away - 07 Jun 2008 06:21 GMT > Consider filling up your tank and not letting it drop below halfway, instead > of keeping it on low and only putting in 2 gallons here and there... [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Not because you could run out of gas and get stranded but because repeatedly > running on low tends to ruin the fuel pump. On our news tonight they interviewed an overly heavy chap who said he only put about $25 of fuel in his truck. He said that was so if the truck failed he wouldn't waste so much gas. >:) They didn't get his (must be a trash gas eater) into the video.
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