 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / August 2008Consumer Reports reliability survey for Cars
I was surprised to read that the 2 bottom trim levels of the new Passat do not come with automatic headlights. You have to spring for the third trim level (called Lux) to get the automatics. Kinda surprised me. All trims are turbo, though, even the bottom trim. The little 4-cylinder (just 2.0 liter) engine can put out 200 horsepower. The Jetta, assembled in Mexico, now comes with a 5th cylinder. It's an inline 5, and boasts 2.5 liters, more than my 2.4 liter Camry. But Consumer Reports says Volkswagen isn't known for its long-term reliability. A Consumer Reports survey of owners listed the '06 Passat as one of the least reliable family cars, but it drives really good, nice handling. The King of Reliability is Toyota, even besting Honda, which is the Queen, a close second to Toyota. Info coming from the April, 2007, issue. Nissan (and its luxury nameplate Infiniti) is all over the map in reliability, from good reliability for some models to downright poor reliablility for other Nissan and Infiniti models (info based on 2006 survey for 3 most recent model years' data). Subaru and Hyundai also did respectably well in the survey. All the other manufacturers, though, showed wide ranges in reliability from poor to bad--similar to Nissan's showing. Mercedes-Benz was at the bottom of the 36-nameplate heap, which really surprised me. Every time I get a hankering for a German car, I just gotta read Consumer Reports and I change my mind about wanting a German car (or even a U.S. car, I'm sad to say). I'm sure U.S. cars are improving dramatically, though. This was Consumer Reports '06 survey, 2 years old now, so it didn't include '07 and '08 models. Some Mercury models did really well in the survey, as did some Lincoln models, but some other Lincoln and Mercury models scored badly in the 3-year reliability survey. However, an outstanding Lincoln stand-out is the Lincoln Zephyr (or Lincoln MKZ which it was later known as). Going back to Mercedes for a second, in the survey, an 8-year-old Lexus scored better in reliablity than a new Mercedes-Benz ML500. (Yow.) Consumer Reports says the Lexus LS tops its survey, year in and year out. The 1998 Lexus LS400 "had fewer problems than the 2006 Mercedes-Benz ML500"--remember this survey was done in 2006, two years ago, so they were comparing an 8-year-old car to a new car. The top 7 nameplates were: 1) Toyota 2) Honda 3) Scion (a Toyota brand) 4) Acura (Honda luxury brand) 5) Lexus (Toyota luxury brand) 6) Subaru 7) Hyundai (but Hyundai's subsidiary Kia didn't do so well) All other companies' nameplates had some models which turned in less-than-average 3-year reliability scores. As mentioned, some models for the companies really excelled, but other models from the same companies did poorly. BMW, another German car I've desired before reading Consumer Reports, didn't do so well either. The BMW 7-series was among the least reliable luxury cars, along with the Jaguar S-Type. BMW, as a whole, scored in the middle of the 36 name-plate bunch. Some of the least reliable small cars were the Chevrolet Cobalt, the 5-cylinder Volkswagen Jetta, and the Chevy Aveo. There were over 1.3 million cars reported on in the 2006 Consumer Reports Annual Car Reliablity Survey. Looking at more long-term data, the 1999 BMW 5 Series V8 had the worst engine cooling problem rate, with 34 percent. "In addition, 2000 to 2001 BMW 5 Series V8 and BMW 7-Series all had about 30 percent of their owners reporting engine-cooling woes." A quote from the article: "More than half of the 2004 Infiniti QX56, Nissan Armada, and Nissan Titan owners reported a brake problem. And almost half of 2005 Armada and Titan owners also reported brake problems." Now this Acura thing surprised me: "Nearly a quarter of owners of the 2001 Acura CL reported a bad tansmission problem, and nearly the same percentage of 1999 Volvo XC70s were reported to suffer from fuel-system problems." Damn, everytime I think of expanding my horizons beyond Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, keeping me loyal to Toyota. >Damn, everytime I think of expanding my horizons beyond >Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, >keeping me loyal to Toyota. Not that Toyota products are bad in any way, but this survey is pretty much useless because it considers all reliability issues to be the same. A car with a lot of warranty tickets on broken glove box hinges and a car with a lot of warranty tickets on blown engines are considered the same way. Some of the surveys that have done breakdowns on individual issues bring some really interesting stuff up. For example, there are a whole lot of repair tickets opened up on BMW's iDrive system, which are related to the system having horrible user interface design rather than actually being unreliable. People can't get it work right, not because it's actually broken but because it's difficult to use. These sorts of things should not be considered if you are actually trying to measure reliability, although they do belong in an overall survey of customer satisfaction. --scott  Signature"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >> Damn, everytime I think of expanding my horizons beyond >> Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, >> keeping me loyal to Toyota. > > Not that Toyota products are bad in any way, but this survey is pretty > much useless because it considers all reliability issues to be the same. Exactly. And if Toyota is so great, how come we STILL see more 87 Buicks on the road than 87 Toyotas? They didn't sell more that many more Buicks at that time, they just lasted longer in the end, even if they were less "reliable" (according to CR) up front. Same in reverse for Mercedes. Consumer Retards considers a broken radio to be the same level of "unreliability" as a hole in the side of the cylinder block where a connecting rod departed.... USELESS info. EVERY single person I know who owns a Mercedes would gladly own another. They're not the heaps CR makes them out to be. "Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote in message > Same in reverse for Mercedes. Consumer Retards considers a broken radio to > be the same level of "unreliability" as a hole in the side of the cylinder > block where a connecting rod departed.... USELESS info. EVERY single > person I know who owns a Mercedes would gladly own another. They're not > the heaps CR makes them out to be. Not so fast, Steve. I owned one and have no desire to ever own one again. Extremely expensive to keep up and repair and part costs are just outrageous, and no more reliable than a Chevy. I even bought a shop manual so I could tell the dealer how to fix some of the problems I had with it. I knew another owner. He sold his while it was up on the lift at the dealer for the umpteenth time and bought a Plymouth instead. Oh, and a broken radio would probably cost about the same as buying a Pontiac to replace out of warranty. Some of you folks keep repeating the same thing that a sticking glove box is made out to be the same as an engine cooling problem. However, Consumer Reports does break down and itemize the problems into 16 categories, which are: Engine problem, major Engine problem, minor Engine Cooling Transmission Drive system Fuel system Electrical Climate system Suspension Brakes Exhaust Paint/Trim Body integrity Body hardware Power equipment Audio system The J.D. Powers surveys also rank Toyota highly > The J.D. Powers surveys also rank Toyota highly Not to start another rant, but J.D. Powers will rank highly whoever pays them. That's why you see the auto company ads stating "Best vehicle of the year according to JDP" and 4 different companies have 4 different models each that won. Kinda hard to believe that every vehicle out there is the "Best of the year." But that's just my opinion, I may be wrong. . . SC Tom >> The J.D. Powers surveys also rank Toyota highly > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > each that won. Kinda hard to believe that every vehicle out there is the > "Best of the year." But that's just my opinion, I may be wrong. . . JD Powers collects data to sell to auto companies. They publish part of the data in an effort to create a brand, but they sell a lot more information than they give away. I believe the JD Powers data (as far as it goes) is more reliable than the CR data. I have filled out surveys for both. The CR data collection scheme is rudimentary, non-random, and the data reporting scheme is designed to emphasize very small differences. People who defend CRs data like to emphasize the fact that CR doesn't take money from advertisers. While true, it is irrelevant. CR has to please the subscribers and keep them interested in buying the magazine. Suppose they started saying that all cars were pretty much the same - would that make for a "must have magazine?" CR slants their reports to suit their own needs (the need to attract and keep subscribers and to promote their particular somewhat nanny state agenda). I enjoy reading CR, but I am never going to confuse their reporting with absolute truth. Ed CRs annual reliability tables are supposedly compiled from the surveys they mail to subscribers. I don't know how much the figures are massaged, but one would think that people who have had a bad experience with a car are more likely to vent and return the survey than those who are satisfied. Then, you've got to adjust for the mentalty of the public, most of whom aren't "car people"..........like those who downgrade a Jeep Wrangler for it's ride or "body integrity".........what did they expect? There are knuckleheads who are surprised that their Excursion gets bad gas mileage or their Suburban towing a 40 foot trailer in the mountains wears out breaks. And people who buy a Chevy and never change the oil, but take their Beetle or Scion to the dealer every 5000 miles for a going-over. And people who buy a Chevy and never change the oil,> but take their Beetle or Scion to the dealer every 5000 miles for a > going-over. No automobile ever needs an oil change. It's just propaganda promoted by motor oil companies to maximize profits. > "Steve" <no@spam.thanks> wrote in message >> Same in reverse for Mercedes. Consumer Retards considers a broken radio to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Not so fast, Steve. I owned one and have no desire to ever own one again. Do I know you? ;-) > Extremely expensive to keep up and repair and part costs are just > outrageous, and no more reliable than a Chevy. I even bought a shop manual > so I could tell the dealer how to fix some of the problems I had with it. No argument that they're no more reliable than a Chevy and that parts costs are stupid-high. But no LESS reliable either- everything from Kia to Toyota to Ford to Mercedes is really pretty comparable these days. But the people I know who own them consider the way they drive, the comfort, the quiet, etc. to be worth the cost of parts, but they typically have NOT had excessive problems. I'm not even arguing that its not placebo effect and status symbol effect that makest them like the cars (I sure as hell would RATHER have a Plymouth than a Mercedes, even if someone said "pick one of these for free) but my point is that the real world doesn't align with the CR world... again. > Oh, and a broken radio would probably cost about the same as buying a > Pontiac to replace out of warranty. That's what Circuit City is for.... Scott is so right. A sludged up engine and a fallen off trim both count as 1 problem. > Not that Toyota products are bad in any way, but this survey is pretty > much useless because it considers all reliability issues to be the same. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > -- > "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis." >>Damn, everytime I think of expanding my horizons beyond >>Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >do belong in an overall survey of customer satisfaction. >--scott The other problems with most of these surveys is that they express "problems per hundred". That makes trivial differences seem like significant differences. How does 150 problems versus 200 problems per year sound?? Pretty bad. But how does 1.5 problem versus 2 problems per year sound? Trivial doesn't it. Yet that's all the difference there is between the upper half or so of these cars. Should you make your buying decision on whether you'll have 1.5 instead of 2 problems a year fixed under warranty??????? > The other problems with most of these surveys is that they express > "problems per hundred". That makes trivial differences seem like [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > you make your buying decision on whether you'll have 1.5 instead of 2 > problems a year fixed under warranty??????? It is even worse than that. Suppose you had two minor problems, say shift indicator adjustment and low fluid level for one brand versus the transmission completely failing for another. Or suppose 9 Toyotas had zero problems but the one you bought had 15? Ironically the data collected by both JD Powers and CR is probably a lot more useful to the manufacturers than to individuals. Ed I think JD Powers info is reliable...BUT: statistics can be made to say anything.....Powers info is for sale.....a car maker can pay to use as little or as much info as they wish, i.e. car owners' Initial Satisfaction views or any interval ownership period. Can ya remember when US cars were still in the basement and Buick started advertising the "highest initial quality scores of any car made"? - It was a startling claim, and as I recall, the fine print revealed that the typical Buick buyer (now, picture the typical Buick buyer then) was still satisfied after 2 weeks. As the old Javelin commercial said, "BFD", lol. > I was surprised to read that the 2 bottom trim levels of the > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > listed the '06 Passat as one of the least reliable family cars, > but it drives really good, nice handling. IMHO CR is full of crap WRT VW. Probably they just don't take a long term enough view. I wish I hadn't sold my '84 Scirocco; that was the most reliabile, bulletproof car I've ever owned. The problem with VWs is they do tend to have teething problems when new, which reflects badly on surveys, but they will run for literally decades with only regular maintenance. That said, I would steer clear of the B-chassis models (Passat) and stick with the A-chassis (Rabbit, Jetta, Scirocco, Golf) as the Passat is known for finicky electrics. Of course, if the nicer trim and better driving qualities of the VW aren't important to you, it is also hard to go wrong with Toyota. I'm a die hard VW fan, but even so, I have to give some grudging respect to Toyota for continuously churning out reliable, durable vehicles as well. The VW 20V turbo 4-cylinders (1.8T and now 2.0T) are just ludicrous. If you think you want to stick with Toyota you should probably never drive one. The torque is intoxicating. I would love to get a pre-82 Scirocco (or maybe a Corrado G60, or a Porsche 924) and drop a 1.8T or 2.0T in it, that would just be a stupidly quick combination. nate > IMHO CR is full of crap WRT VW. Probably they just don't take a long > term enough view. I wish I hadn't sold my '84 Scirocco; that was the > most reliabile, bulletproof car I've ever owned. The problem with VWs > is they do tend to have teething problems when new, which reflects > badly on surveys, but they will run for literally decades with only > regular maintenance. ======== Well, N8N, here's the exact quote from Consumer Reports about the Volkswagen / Audi company (I guess they merged a few years ago): VW/Audi: "These cars test well, but long-term reliability has been poor. Recommended models include most Audis but only one VW." "Highs: Fit and finish, acceleration, crash-test results, handling, standard safety equipment. Lows: Controls, reliability." > > IMHO CR is full of crap WRT VW. Probably they just don't take a long > > term enough view. I wish I hadn't sold my '84 Scirocco; that was the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Lows: Controls, reliability." I believe you, but they are simply wrong. Reliability, and more importantly durability, are VW's strongest points. About the only way to thoroughly kill a VW is to wreck it or let it rust out. Barring that, no matter what goes wrong, it'll always be cheaper to fix it than replace it. And really, not much does go wrong - any problems you're likely to have will not prevent you from getting where you're going. nate On 7/23/08 10:46 AM, in article b3596bce-7a72-4a44-aa19-3516ca9d1747@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "N8N" <njnagel@hotmail.com> wrote: >> I was surprised to read that the 2 bottom trim levels of the >> [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > nate My experience with VW says CR is dead on. My '79 Rabbit was beyond all doubt the worst car I ever owned. The engine compartment ground bundle located directly beneath the drip spout under the battery epitomized the stupid engineering that went into that car. > My experience with VW says CR is dead on. My '79 Rabbit was beyond all > doubt the worst car I ever owned. The engine compartment ground bundle > located directly beneath the drip spout under the battery epitomized the > stupid engineering that went into that car. VW has had numerous electrical problems. Many of these problems are rather serious, i.e., car is DOA. > On 7/23/08 10:46 AM, in article > b3596bce-7a72-4a44-aa19-3516ca9d1...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "N8N" [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > located directly beneath the drip spout under the battery epitomized the > stupid engineering that went into that car. I've had quite a few 80's era watercooled VWs over the years and I can honestly say that only two were in any way finicky - my '89 GTI 16V, because it was a resurrected "barn car" (once I replaced pretty much any accessory with bearings, it was quite reliable - I eventually sold it to a friend who drove it daily until a year or two ago when she sold it) and SWMBO's '90 Corrado G60, because it's a Corrado and those aren't up to normal VW standards. My cars were not pampered - sat outside 24/7, expected to start on a moment's notice after sitting for a week or more, be able to drive up and down the east coast without any preparation, etc. and they never let me down. nate Consumers Reports only gathers information about late model cars (they report the reliability by model and year). Statistical information is obtained from Consumer Reports subscribers in a survey they send out to readers. > > On 7/23/08 10:46 AM, in article > > b3596bce-7a72-4a44-aa19-3516ca9d1...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "N8N" [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > and down the east coast without any preparation, etc. and they never > let me down. Actually upon reflection I lied. The alternator on the roccet died on me while driving between Detroit and Annapolis. at only 240K miles. cheapass POS. nate On Jul 23, 2:34 pm, E Meyer <epmeye...@msn.com> wrote: > On 7/23/08 10:46 AM, in article > b3596bce-7a72-4a44-aa19-3516ca9d1...@p25g2000hsf.googlegroups.com, "N8N" I've had quite a few 80's era watercooled VWs over the years and I can honestly say that only two were in any way finicky - my '89 GTI 16V, because it was a resurrected "barn car" (once I replaced pretty much any accessory with bearings, it was quite reliable - I eventually sold it to a friend who drove it daily until a year or two ago when she sold it) and SWMBO's '90 Corrado G60, because it's a Corrado and those aren't up to normal VW standards. My cars were not pampered - sat outside 24/7, expected to start on a moment's notice after sitting for a week or more, be able to drive up and down the east coast without any preparation, etc. and they never let me down. ==== I had two VW Golfs (1.8 petrol - a 1988 Mark II and a 1993 Mark III). I was generally very pleased with them, though they were fairly expensive to maintain because of the high cost of parts, even in the UK which is not as far from Germany as, for example, the USA is. The first car (which had a carburettor) had a problem with its automatic choke which occasionally in hot weather made the engine race - very embarrassingly once when I got stuck in a traffic jam on the infamous M25 motorway ("London's orbital car-park"!) and I had to turn off the engine every time I came to a stand-still and then slip the clutch like mad to crawl forward a few feet. But that was fixed fairly quickly and under warranty. The second one developed an annoying problem where the engine kept losing power or hesitating. It kept going back to the garage and they could never find anything. Eventually they decided to keep it for a week and loan me another car in the meantime so they could give it a good test. On the last day the mechanic rang up in a state of considerable elation and yelled "It's just gone wrong! I know what it is! I've fixed it!" - it was the throttle sensor which detects the position of the throttle pedal and feeds the info to the engine management unit: this had developed a fault. The component cost a few quid but the labour was going to be several hundred pounds... until I was able to produce a garage receipt showing that the car was still within the mileage limit for the warranty when I first reported the fault, so VW head office eventually agreed to pay up. The first car was lovely - much more lively than the other one though the power and torque were very similar. Only slight design flaw: the sill at the base of the windscreen had tiny drain holes into the wheel arches and these easily got blocked. Once day after torrential rain overnight I got into the car and found I was paddling in six inches of water! Having got the majority of the water out with buckets and mopped up with towels, I then spent one weekend removing the seats and then the carpet so I could wash the carpets (which had started to smell - especially the underlay). It was weird driving around with bare metal floor and only my seat ;-) Fuel economy was not brilliant - about 30-35 mpg (UK) which is about 24-28 mpg (US). I now have a Peugeot 306 diesel which has just done 129,000 miles and is still going strong after nine years. 50-55 mpg, bullet-proof, starts first time every time whatever the weather. But it's getting to the age when expensive things are starting to need attention: new catalytic converter, replacement cambelt (scheduled), two new fanbelts (unplanned - second one was because garage that fitted first one didn't notice that a pulley was wobbly so it took out the belt after about a month - GRRRRR!). I'm not sure what I'd replace it with because I don't like the Peugeot 307 or 308, and the VW Golf is very expensive for what it is and, like so many modern cars, has one of these not-fit-for-purpose spacesaver spare wheels. Also the rear seats don't remove so I wouldn't be able to carry my bicycle as easily. The Honda Civic (new shape) and the Citroen C4 are gimmicky (digital instruments in the centre of the dashboard). Ford and Vauxhall - boring! > On Jul 23, 2:34 pm, E Meyer <epmeye...@msn.com> wrote: >> On 7/23/08 10:46 AM, in article [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > Ford and Vauxhall - boring! And Peugeot in the US... cannot be had. Too bad as they seem to perform beautifully now days, but crashed and burned when they were in the states. Willy > And Peugeot in the US... cannot be had. Too bad as they seem to perform > beautifully now days, but crashed and burned when they were in the states. It's strange which cars are and aren't sold in a given country. It's only very recently (maybe the last five or ten years) that American cars such as Cadillac have been sold in the UK. > It's strange which cars are and aren't sold in a given country. It's only > very recently (maybe the last five or ten years) that American cars such > as Cadillac have been sold in the UK. The case of Peugeot and Renault are different than GM. GM and Ford have always manufactured and sold cars in Europe, which are tailored to the European market. A lot of Ford and GM cars sold in the US are inappropriately sized for the European market, where gas prices are double, streets are narrow, travel distances are shorter, etc. Of course many of these same cars are now inappropriate for the US also, now that gas prices have increased. Peugeot and Renault both suspended marketing in the US, not because the cars where inappropriately sized or featured, but because their cars simply could not compete in terms of reliability compared to Japanese, German, Swedish, or even American cars. They left the US market for the same reason that Yugo left, the cars were junk. The same was true of Fiat, but to a somewhat lesser degree. In the 1970's I almost bought a used Fiat 124 coupe (a great car) but could not bring myself to pull the trigger because they had so many mechanical problems (and at the time I had little money for repairs). Perhaps Peugeot and Renault are improved now, but there are still way too much competition in the US for the French automakers. One reason that US cars like Cadillac are now appearing in Europe is that they have produced smaller and more sophisticated models in recent years (some of them with sheet metal actually designed in Italy), and more importantly, the price has been slashed by more than 50% due to the weakening of the US dollar against the British Pound and the Euro. Nothing strange about that. I've enjoyed CR tests and yearly reviews since the days when they thought that an AM radio was a needless luxury. (I'm not kidding - they were against radios, whitewalls, automatic trans, power steering.........everyone should have a Rambler or Studebaker Scotsman) But I stopped taking them seriously when I noticed that their experiences were nothing like my own......when their charts showed some years of MGBs were more reliable than others (I had one: none were reliable and they never changed a thing so how would one year have a better transmission or heater?) .... and then they downrated one year Corvette as having worse rust problems than the other. Real experts, there. I can give you first hand experience with some "fine German cars"........first, they are all grossly overpriced here compared to what they sell for on their home soil - a Volvo sells here for about the same as in Sweden, but German cars are marked-up about 50% over home market. Second, the cost of maintenance is ruinous: if you maintained it the way they Germans recommend, a Yugo would last forever. I gave-up after one BMW: yes, most of the repairs were covered by warranty, but why should the brakes, wheels and tires need to be replaced 3 times in one year? Just one of many problems. It was a 7 series and part of the original sales pitch was the wonderful resale value........no one would give me much for trade-in and it took over a year to sell it privately (for nearly 50% less than book value). My neighbor is lucky: his company provides him with 2 new lease cars of his choice every 2 years. First, he got a big and a little Benz for he and his wife. Nothing but woe. Then they got 2 BMWs. Nothing but woe. Now they have 2 Audis: the V8 and a smaller one for her. They say they like them better than the other makes and they are less trouble......but they also have the advantage of not paying for them. And the folks at the country club are dazzled. I have 2 '06 Fords: a Mustang and a Five Hundred. Not a lot of status, but neither has ever had to go back to the dealer even once. They might not be ideal for a day on the autobahn, but they work pretty good for driving in the USA> > I was surprised to read that the 2 bottom trim levels of the > [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, > keeping me loyal to Toyota. tnx for the post but CR is a jack of all trades master of none ... <useless drivel snipped> > Damn, everytime I think of expanding my horizons beyond > Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, > keeping me loyal to Toyota. I'm so happy to hear that. I gave up on CR about twenty years ago. They have always had an imperfect ranking - comparing an issue with a turn signal stalk equivelant to a problem with head gaskets. Also, pretty much any car/truck these days will be good/bad depending on the amount of abuse it takes and the designer. GM may have five bad cars and ten good ones. Do all make the survey? Toyota/Lexus/Scion may have five bad cars and four good ones. Do all make the survey? Signaturewww.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org powered by the lizard: www.opensuse.org > Damn, everytime I think of expanding my horizons beyond > Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, > keeping me loyal to Toyota. My sister is leasing an 06 Corolla. So far, her opinion is that she wishes she had her 2000 Neon back. Her complaints - battery problems, noisy, lousy gas mileage. And yes, a Neon owner said a Toyota Corolla is noisy. Needless to say she's not keeping it past the lease. Ray > I was surprised to read that the 2 bottom trim levels of the > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > listed the '06 Passat as one of the least reliable family cars, > but it drives really good, nice handling. Consumer Reports is a great big joke, always has been, and always will be. Cant believe, in the age of the internet, they are even still in business. I would be interested to know their subscription numbers now, as opposed to their heyday period during the mid-80's, when millions of Americans let CR think for them and choose the products that they wanted to buy for them. > The King of Reliability is Toyota, even besting Honda, which > is the Queen, a close second to Toyota. Info coming from the > April, 2007, issue. How the hell can a company that RECALLS more vechicles than it SELLS be "the king of reliability"??????? Because CR deems it so, therefore, it must be so, I guess. Ludicrus! > Nissan (and its luxury nameplate Infiniti) is all over the map > in reliability, from good reliability for some models to [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > reliability survey. However, an outstanding Lincoln stand-out > is the Lincoln Zephyr (or Lincoln MKZ which it was later known as). American nameplates have been on at LEAST, on even par, quality-wise, with the all-mighty Japanese nameplates for at least the past 20 years, statistically or otherwise. For some reason, CR, and the media continue to sing the virtues of the foreign models over the American nameplates. > Going back to Mercedes for a second, in the survey, an > 8-year-old Lexus scored better in reliablity than a new [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, > keeping me loyal to Toyota. Yeah, if I wanted to buy a car, but CM told me not to, I probably wouldn't buy it, either. Like I said in a post a while back, someone a little older and wiser than I am once told me, "Son, if God had intended for Comsumer Reports to think for you, he wouldn't have given you a brain." Well, you cross posting dirtbag, I get my chops busted for top posting.... You, however, cross post to several NGs - one of them a Ford NG and you post some kind of cut and paste drivel that doesn't seem to mention the word Ford not even once.... > I was surprised to read that the 2 bottom trim levels of the > [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, > keeping me loyal to Toyota. Enough with the cross posting, already... > I was surprised to read that the 2 bottom trim levels of the > [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] > Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, > keeping me loyal to Toyota. And you're cross posting because.... ? | Enough with the cross posting, already... | > I was surprised to read that the 2 bottom trim levels of the | > [quoted text clipped - 98 lines] | > Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, | > keeping me loyal to Toyota. > And you're cross posting because.... ? And you're top-posting because....? > X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.5512 > X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.5512 Oh, Wintendo luzer. Nevermind. Carry on. Signaturewww.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org powered by the lizard: www.opensuse.org <Snip Crap> Why is it some of you Toyonuts are always cross-posting or Trolling the GM newsgroups? We don't come to your group and cause sh.t, or disrespect you. Have some respect. > Damn, everytime I think of expanding my horizons beyond > Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, > keeping me loyal to Toyota. As for this, I honestly don't know which is worse. Someone who believes CR provides "cold, hard data and results", or someone who purchases something just because they were told to by said magazine. > <Snip Crap> > > Why is it some of you Toyonuts are always cross-posting or Trolling the GM > newsgroups? We don't come to your group and cause sh.t, or disrespect > you. Have some respect. Why do you think it is the Toyota people cross posting the GM group? It seems like CR auto survey results would be of general interest to people interested in cars (no matter whether you consider the results important or not). The OP started out talking about VWs, not Toyotas. Certainly some Toyota fans posted follow-ups, but aren't you interested in the opinion of others - even people who like Toyotas? Once a discussion starts out posted to numerous groups, isn't it reasonable to post replies to all the same groups? I hate it when threads get dropped in the middle. >> Damn, everytime I think of expanding my horizons beyond >> Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > CR provides "cold, hard data and results", or someone who purchases > something just because they were told to by said magazine. People like to have their choices validated. I've always thought that at least some people who purchase cars sold by foreign manufacturers feel a little guilty and need for others to provide them with support for there decision. That way they can justify sending jobs / profits off shore. CR provides that support for a lot of Toyota buyers. I have also felt there was a positive feedback mechanism in the CR surveys. CR says Toyotas are good, so CR readers who own Toyotas tend to shade there responses to match this opinion. Don't get me wrong, I think Toyota builds reliable cars, but they are only marginally better than average and some models are less reliable than average and others more reliable. The differences between top tier manufacturers is very small. I also get irritated at some of CR comments about interior materials. They often talk about cheap looking plastic in domestic cars while ignoring the crappy looking plastic Toyota routinely uses. My sister has a new RAV4. Mostly I like it, but there is no way the interior materials are anything special. And then there is the whole question of out gassing from plastic. In the past Toyota was among the worst offenders in than respect. Oh well...enough from me for now. Ed >> <Snip Crap> >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > to numerous groups, isn't it reasonable to post replies to all the same > groups? I hate it when threads get dropped in the middle. You're right, Ed. I guess I accidentally put the OP in the same bin as some of the other Toyota nuts ("Hachiroku" for example). However, my point about Toyota lovers posting hate posts in the GM group is valid. >>> Damn, everytime I think of expanding my horizons beyond >>> Toyota, cold, hard survey data and results bring me back, [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Oh well...enough from me for now. Car manufactures are a touchy spot for me, because I live only a few minuites from GM's Oshawa, Ontario plants. The region I live in is sustained by GM, which means if GM goes down, so does this region, and most of my family (who work for the General). > >> <Snip Crap> > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > sustained by GM, which means if GM goes down, so does this region, and most > of my family (who work for the General). GM is doomed so it is sure to go down on you >> Car manufactures are a touchy spot for me, because I live only a few >> minuites from GM's Oshawa, Ontario plants. The region I live in is >> sustained by GM, which means if GM goes down, so does this region, and >> most of my family (who work for the General). > > GM is doomed so it is sure to go down on you Bold statement there. Signaturewww.perfectreign.com || www.filesite.org powered by the lizard: www.opensuse.org On Jul 27, 2:55 am, "80_Knight" <nos...@hotmail.com> wrote: > "C. E. White" <cewhi...@mindspring.com> wrote in > messagenews:p--dneFZXKlirhbVnZ2dnUVZ_gGdnZ2d@earthlink.com... [quoted text clipped - 61 lines] > most > of my family (who work for the General). GM is doomed so it is sure to go down on you ========================================================= You know, you are true Internet scum. Not only do you Troll newsgroups, but you also wish harm on people who have done nothing to you. You are a true low life, Gosi. By the way, with you having such a hard-on over GM's faults, I must ask, what country do you live in? Why is it some of you Toyonuts are always cross-posting or Trolling the GM <newsgroups? Listen loser, you need to chill out and realize that 5 years from now Ford and Chevy will cease to exist. Our politicians sold us out for NAFTA and guaranteed that only Japmobiles and other foreign junk misers would take over the auto market. It's a harsh new world out there, so man up, grow some balls and face it. and that is because people are stupid sheep that listen to idiots that write rags like consumers report that say those jap crap cars are the best thing since buttered bread. so they go out and buy the jap shitboxes, and proudly tell everyone and their brother how they got such a good deal. well, let me tell you about the good deal i got. i have a ford crown vic. i paid $9,000 less than you paid for your jap scrap shitbox. i get 26 mpg on the highway at 75 mph, which is about the same as your jap crap sardine can. i can comfortably sit 4 250lb+ people in my crown vic, and the bumpers will not drag on the ground like your jap scrap shitbox will, and still get 26 mpg. if people would only look at the real world instead of what they read in magazines, the American auto makers would not be in the trouble they are currently facing. . the sheep cry about foreign countries taking over the U.S.of A, and then go and buy jap shitbox cars. "Rick Cooper" <glassco@telus.spam.net> wrote in message > Listen loser, you need to chill out and realize that 5 years from now Ford > and Chevy will cease to exist. Our politicians sold us out for NAFTA and > guaranteed that only Japmobiles and other foreign junk misers would take > over the auto market. It's a harsh new world out there, so man up, grow > some balls and face it. > and that is because people are stupid sheep that listen to idiots that write > rags like consumers report that say those jap crap cars are the best thing [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > over the auto market. It's a harsh new world out there, so man up, grow > > some balls and face it. I agree. I had two Hondas (05 civic hybrid and an 05 element). The civic' mileage was worse than my friend's regular civic, and the fact remains that in over 40 years of driving, both professionally and personally, the only time I ever got stuck in the snow was with the element's all wheel drive. So much for intelligent design. > and that is because people are stupid sheep that listen to idiots that write > rags like consumers report that say those jap crap cars are the best thing [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the sheep cry about foreign countries taking over the U.S.of A, > and then go and buy jap shitbox cars. Probably because the imports are still more appealing than the american offerings. There's more to a car than interior room and gas mileage - things like interior trim, fit and finish, handling, reliability, durability. Go drive, say, a Chevy Malibu and a VW Golf back to back. there's a big, noticeable difference. The Golf feels like a luxury car scaled down. the 'bu, while actually a respectable effort (I just drove a last year's model to work this AM as my normal company car - '05 Impala, an unmitigated POS) is still nowhere near the same class as the Golf. Still feels like a rental car, even though it actually rides pretty well and has decent power. If GM and Ford are serious about regaining lost market share they're going to have to step up their game a little bit. Now from what I understand the latest 'bu is supposed to be quite nice, but I haven't had a chance to drive one yet. nate > "Rick Cooper" <glas...@telus.spam.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > - Show quoted text - |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.