Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / October 2008
worst promoted vehicle -- flex
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Picasso - 22 Oct 2008 01:38 GMT I saw the ford flex on the lots far before any advertising. Ford appears to me, has done a terrible job at promoting this vehicle. is ford relying now on dealerships and people "seeing" cars around to promote their vehicles?
Now is not the time to be styling something as hideous as that and relying on people thinking it looks like a good vehicle for them to sell their cars. Did ford base this on that Honda Generation Y vehicle that they built about 15,000 of and then quit making them?
Anyway, ford has done an all around bad job at promoting ANY of its recent vehicles...
Checking the ford website is just a big surprise every 6 months now to see what else they came out with that my local dealer doesn't even carry...
Like what is a Taurus X, and why do they need it? Is there "really" a market for this? if so, does it make money? If so, how does it differ from the flex?
Fusion.. Taurus... Focus... do we need them all???
Is the Sport Trac really a seller? Is it necessary to have this? Why not can this or the ranger, and just make one or the other in a reg cab / ext cab / quad cab... why all these lines of vehicles that are likely not making money??
I own two ford vehicles... might buy another one... but its becoming less and less likely...
I'm very confused as to how ford thinks they are going to survive... from what i see, about 1/3 of their vehicles can be taken off the lots.
Just seems like when you compare ford to Honda or Toyota the menu is just too large to be remotely profitable, and too few differences between the choices. I would be a very leary investor in this company for sure.
Confused.....
Picasso
Itsfrom Click - 22 Oct 2008 05:22 GMT well, if they rely on people wanting a Flex after seeing one on the road, they might as well put the factory up for sale (if it isn't already)......I mean, how can anything be that bland and ugly at the same time - they can put 10 sunroofs on it and it won't help. It's hard to imagine that they're working on a Lincoln version - although it supposedly will have a completely different appearance.
speaking of which - after so many "badge engineered" cars, the new Lincoln version of the Volvo80/500/Taurus is flying off dealer lots as soon as they come=in around here......and I'm pleasantly surprised: not only has different stying, but a different interior and some engineering upgrades (unlike the MKZ version of the Fusion which is not much more than a different grill).
What's it called? Is it the MKS??? Another mistake I think companies are making: you used to know where a Cadillac deVille, Seville, Eldo or Fleetwood fell in the hierarchy.......or a Continental, Town Car or Mark.........but in their rush to be like the imports, makers have reduced model designations to numbers and letters that have no meaning to buyers, and replaced a lot of their well-known heraldry with meaningless chrome blobs.
You'd think they'd learn from Oldsmobile's experience: first they came out with a bewildering array of "Cutlass" models, then dropped well-established model names like 88 and Ninety-Eight to be replaced with unknown vagaries like Aurora and Allero, etc. To make sure nobody knew what they were, they replaced the Olds crests & symbols with a shapeless blob, and even left the make off a lot of them: if you saw one you liked, there was no way to tell who made it. Have no idea why all the others want to imitate such "success": guess all the interns at the market research companies went to the same school!
Ashton Crusher - 22 Oct 2008 06:59 GMT >well, if they rely on people wanting a Flex after seeing one on the >road, they might as well put the factory up for sale (if it isn't >already)......I mean, how can anything be that bland and ugly at the >same time - they can put 10 sunroofs on it and it won't help. It's >hard to imagine that they're working on a Lincoln version - although it >supposedly will have a completely different appearance. When Scion came out with their refrigerator on wheels people LOVED it. When ford comes out with something that actually better looking people bitch about how it looks.
>speaking of which - after so many "badge engineered" cars, the new >Lincoln version of the Volvo80/500/Taurus is flying off dealer lots as [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >all the others want to imitate such "success": guess all the interns at >the market research companies went to the same school! Itsfrom Click - 22 Oct 2008 13:56 GMT Ashton.......re: bitching about Flex' looks
you're right: I was among those who thought the original Scion was "cute"......they got it all right for the buyers they targeted: concept, price, size, mileage, counter-culture image: even the sub-brand "Scion" was inspired..
but the "box on wheels" isn't "cute" when it's the size of a box-car and costs $35,000+.......and to me there's a disconnect between the vehicle and the "flex" name. I'm sure it's a practical vehicle for a lot of buyers and enough won't care about the looks --- but FoMoCo is beginning to look a lot like Chrysler in the 80's: a successful chassis, so let's see how many models we can make out of it. When Chrysler morphed the K-car into the mini-van, it was a spectacular blend of existing parts, practicality and a bit of "I always wanted a van" macho. Poor Ford is reduced to trumpeting sunroofs and "available refrigerator". Gawd.
But they still have a way to go to win the Aztec "Sow's ear out of silk" award.
Mike Hunter - 22 Oct 2008 15:57 GMT You better take another look at the MKZ if that is what you believe. The whole interior, as well as the complete front and rear end are entirely different, not a single body part is interchangeable. The engine is also larger ;)
> speaking of which - after so many "badge engineered" cars, the new > Lincoln version of the Volvo80/500/Taurus is flying off dealer lots as > soon as they come=in around here......and I'm pleasantly surprised: not > only has different stying, but a different interior and some engineering > upgrades (unlike the MKZ version of the Fusion which is not much more > than a different grill). C. E. White - 22 Oct 2008 16:09 GMT > You better take another look at the MKZ if that is what you believe. > The whole interior, as well as the complete front and rear end are > entirely different, not a single body part is interchangeable. The > engine is also larger ;) Different transmission also (Ford built 6 speed vs Aisin-Warner 6 speed in Fusion).
Still, the cars look a lot a like.....
Ed
Itsfrom Click - 22 Oct 2008 18:42 GMT Mike:
just to be argumentative (this group could use a little life-support):
the Lincoln Zephr was pure Fusion - including dash, interior, body panels, etc. - with a different grill and chrome rings around the cup holders.. so they got busy and designed some specific bits and renamed it the MKZ.
55-57 "Hudsons" had different dashes, but were still Nashes........57-58 Packards had different dashes, but were still Studebakers. I'll accept the MKS as sufficiently unique: but then, how many years did it take Ford Engineering to take a Volvo and call it a Lincoln? Sad.
C. E. White - 22 Oct 2008 19:30 GMT > Mike: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > take > Ford Engineering to take a Volvo and call it a Lincoln? Sad. And a Lexus EX350 is just a thinly disguised Camry, The RX300 is just a rebodied Highlander, the LX570 is just a Land Cruiser, etc, etc, etc. Ford / Lincoln isn't doing anything much different than Toyota/Lexus.
Claiming the MKS is just a rebodied Volvo is not correct. They share nothing of consequence. I suppose you could claim the MKS evolved from a Volvo platform, but when you change every part, have different dimensions, and completely different drivetrains, it is hard to claim something is just rebodied...
Ed
Itsfrom Click - 22 Oct 2008 21:29 GMT Ed:
I really like the MKS......and when my '06 Five Hundred needs replacing, I'll consider one. Speaking of which, the 500 is a Limited with AWD and CVT.....an alwful lot of parts right out of the Volvo parts bin, which isn't a bad thing. I guess I miss the days when a Mercury was a glorified Ford (but had a significantly nicer interior & equipment level)...and the Lincoln was unique, i.e. how many parts did a 52,'56, 58. or 61 Lincoln share with Ford/Merc. 'Course, those were the days when a car make was a single line, not a size for everyone.......not to mention the cost of emission & crash certification which makes unique models cost prohibitive.
Don't forget where Lexus, Infinity, Acura et al came from: the US put quotas on the imports to give domestic makers a breather, so our friends in Japan started rebadging home-market models as different makes. Nice trick.
So.....if GM buys Chrysler, how many nameplates will survive?
Mike Hunter - 23 Oct 2008 17:25 GMT Jeep ;)
> Ed: > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > So.....if GM buys Chrysler, how many nameplates will survive? Mike Hunter - 23 Oct 2008 17:07 GMT Better look a bit closer if that is what you believe. I know better, I owned an 06 Zephyr and currently own a '08 MKZ. My one grand daughter owns a '08 Fusion, the differences are far more than just the grill. The grill, bumper covers, head and tail lamps, fenders, rear quarters and trunk lids, from one will not fit the other. The body and chassis are common but that's all that is common.
As too the new MKS, the basic chassis is NOT a Volvo chassis, it is a Ford chassis developed by Ford and Volvo engineers, that is the basis for several derivative vehicles.
Just as was the chassis that was used on the Jaguar S, Lincoln LS, T-Bird and the 2005 Mustang. They all had different wheelbases, engines, trannys and suspension systems on the same basic chassis. Toyota uses a basic chassis to make several brands of cars vans and trucks. Honda even uses a car chassis to make it so called truck, the Ridgeline
I am a retired automotive design engineer. The reason all manufactures use a basic chassis is to enhance their economies of scale and to save the millions of dollars it costs to certify a completely new chasses to meet NHTSA standards. It is far less expensive to certify a derivative chassis
> Mike: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > the MKS as sufficiently unique: but then, how many years did it take > Ford Engineering to take a Volvo and call it a Lincoln? Sad. C. E. White - 23 Oct 2008 17:42 GMT > Just as was the chassis that was used on the Jaguar S, Lincoln LS, > T-Bird and the 2005 Mustang. I was agreeing with you until you spouted this crap about the 2005 Mustang using the same chassis as the Lincoln LS. It is not and I have posted many reference to refute this BS every time you repeat it. You continually repeat this untruth despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
For those who actually don't know you keep making this crap up, here are some references:
From http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=17268:
"Based on an all-new, fully modern body structure and chassis system featuring advanced MacPherson struts and a three-link live axle with Panhard rod, Mustang boasts an overall ride sophistication unmatched by any of its ancestors. Its braking and handling are nothing short of world class."
Note the LS, Jaguar S and Thunderbird use double wishbone front suspension, and idenpendent reas suspension, have compeltely different engine choices, etc.
From http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_dew_drop/ :
"Inner debates? How about fights, laughs Phil Martens as he describes the reaction in Ford Motor Co.'s inner sanctums when the decision was made early in the design of the '05 Mustang to abandon the DEW platform for an all-new architecture.
"Engineers were not far into the program when it became evident the expensive DEW98 platform (Lincoln LS, Ford Thunderbird, Jaguar S-Type) would not provide Mustang with the range and cost-effectiveness needed, says Martens, Ford group vice president-North America product creation.
"Controversial as the decision was internally, Martens has no regrets today.
"The new architecture developed for the Mustang represents a savings of 30%-35% (for the V-8) compared with what it would have cost to build the newest pony car off the DEW architecture, he tells Ward's.
"And the entry-level V-6, with a solid rear axle and desired pricepoint under $20,000, was close to impossible from a platform with an expensive double-wishbone front suspension and independent rear suspension.
"The LS (DEW) platform was built with a different cost structure and a different performance level and didn't have the accommodation that a traditional Mustang product has," says Martens of the complicated family with about nine variants planned, from the base coupe to a high-end $60,000 Cobra R.
"The decision was not made without angst.
"Work on the Mustang started prior to Martens' return to Ford from a stint at Mazda Motor Corp. two years ago. It began with the working premise DEW would do the job, a cost-effective use of an existing platform that played well at a time when the auto maker was hemorrhaging cash and needed stringent cost-cutting.
"Except it didn't work.
"The business case was not there and the desired product range could not be achieved. The 4.6L V-8 engine didn't even fit - it would have required a redesign of the control arms.
""When I came back from Japan (two years ago), I took a look at it and just cut right to the bone," says Martens.
""The LS architecture is not a low-cost architecture, and it was never designed to be a low-cost architecture," Martens says. "If you start out at the high-cost range, you can't bring it down to the low-cost range," he explains.
"Conversely, "the Mustang architecture is what I would call an affordable architecture with range," meaning it has "the capability to take that same basic architecture into high cost (vehicles)."
"The new platform will be profitable, he asserts. Annual sales are projected at about 170,000 units, and Martens expects Mustang to sell out for the first three or four years. The architecture should pay for itself after the first couple of years, during which time the capital costs will be amortized, he says.
"In terms of range, "you want to have an architecture that can go from handling low-cost applications for high volume, all the way to specialty ramifications, such as the Cobra R and a convertible," explains Martens.
""That stand requires you to think differently about the total concept of an architecture capability set.
""So if you look at that type of bandwidth, the capability, it didn't make sense, over time, as we looked at it, to just pick the LS or the DEW98 architecture."
"From a clean sheet of paper, engineers derived a layout that, "by itself, will have an incredible capacity," says Martens.
"At the bottom is a basic Mustang with a 4L V-6, new MacPherson strut front suspension and 3-link solid rear axle that acts like it's independent with better damping and spring rates, placement of shocks, including a Panhard rod to help with torsional stability and overall attention to geometric alignment for a low-cost, well-balanced vehicle.
""In reality, the V-6 automatic person doesn't effectively care or want to know what the rear or front suspensions are," says Martens. "But they want to know that this is a Mustang - it looks great, sounds great and drives great." ......"
Ed
Mike Hunter - 23 Oct 2008 18:47 GMT As I told you before you can believe what you choose, but the fact remains the 2005 Mustang chassis is a DERIVATIVE of the SAME chassis. I never said it is the SAME chassis.
>> Just as was the chassis that was used on the Jaguar S, Lincoln LS, T-Bird >> and the 2005 Mustang. [quoted text clipped - 107 lines] > > Ed C. E. White - 23 Oct 2008 19:15 GMT > As I told you before you can believe what you choose, but the fact > remains the 2005 Mustang chassis is a DERIVATIVE of the SAME > chassis. I never said it is the SAME chassis. READ WHAT YOU WROTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - "Just as was the chassis that was used on the Jaguar S, Lincoln LS, T-Bird and the 2005 Mustang. They all had different wheelbases, engines, trannys and suspension systems on the same basic chassis. "
There is no separate chassis on a 2005 Mustang. There is body shell with mounting points for the suspension. NOT a single mounting point is shared between the Mustang and the LS (DEW platform). The engine compartments are a completely different size and shape. The suspension types and mounting points are entirely different. Drivetrain choices are different (they do share the automatic transmission type). Nothing of significance is shared between the two family's chassis. CAREFULLY read the following from one of my references - " "Inner debates? How about fights, laughs Phil Martens as he describes the reaction in Ford Motor Co.'s inner sanctums when the decision was made early in the design of the '05 Mustang to abandon the DEW platform for an all-new architecture."
The line about "abandoning the DEW platform for an all-new architecture" clearly refutes even your revised claim ("derived from"). I don't know why you are trying to keep alive this erroneous idea that the Mustang is somehow closely related to the Lincoln LS. Back in the early 00's this was the assumed development path and the press mentioned it frequently, but it never happened that way as the quotes from Phil Marten (Ford group vice president-North America product creation) clearly show.
You can't claim one chassis is derived from another unless they share something of consequence. If you want to interpret "derived from" so broadly so as to validate your claim that the 2005 Mustang Chassis is derived from the DEW platform, then you have broadened the term into meaninglessness. You might as well claim the 2005 Mustang is derived from the 2004 Mustang - they actually have more in common....at least as far as front suspension layout and powertrain choices are concerned
Ed
>>> Just as was the chassis that was used on the Jaguar S, Lincoln LS, >>> T-Bird and the 2005 Mustang. [quoted text clipped - 113 lines] >> >> Ed Mike Hunter - 23 Oct 2008 20:06 GMT Get real! The Jaguar S has very little in common with the LS or the T-bird, different engines trannys and suspensions but they are all "derived" from the same basic chassis. The 04 Mustang has nothing in common with the 05 chassis
I worked in chassis design for the last 15 I worked at Ford. I helped in the design of the crumple zones for the first Taurus. I know and even trained some the engineers that worked on the 05.
>> As I told you before you can believe what you choose, but the fact >> remains the 2005 Mustang chassis is a DERIVATIVE of the SAME chassis. I [quoted text clipped - 147 lines] >>> >>> Ed C. E. White - 24 Oct 2008 12:36 GMT > Get real! The Jaguar S has very little in common with the LS or the > T-bird, different engines trannys and suspensions but they are all > "derived" from the same basic chassis. More bad information. I suggest you go check your facts on this one. The original engines in both cars are from the same family, the Jags engine was tuned differently and had a different intake arrange (and was rated with more power). Both cars used versions of the same 5 speed automatic transmission (although again, tuned differently). Front and rear suspension members were the same, but again with different tuning (different springs and shocks). Interior bits were even shared. Almost none of this is true when comparing the 05 Mustang to a Lincoln LS (they do use automatic transmissions from the same family).
> The 04 Mustang has nothing in common with the 05 chassis I only said that the 04 has more in common with the 05 than the DEW platform. This is a true statement. At least the 04 and 05 share V8s from the same engine family, similar front suspension designs, same rear axles, etc. The 05 shares nothing with the DEW paltform except the 5 speed automatic transmission.
> I worked in chassis design for the last 15 I worked at Ford. I > helped in the design of the crumple zones for the first Taurus. I > know and even trained some the engineers that worked on the 05. More BS. I worked at Ford a long time ago also. Means nothing as far as this discussion.
Ed
Mike Hunter - 24 Oct 2008 14:53 GMT The only ting common with the S engine was the block, although you are correct it is DERIVED from the same engine.
I still speak to Ford design engineers. An assembly line worker is far different than a member of the design teams.
>> Get real! The Jaguar S has very little in common with the LS or the >> T-bird, different engines trannys and suspensions but they are all [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Ed Caesar Romano - 22 Oct 2008 06:10 GMT >Anyway, ford has done an all around bad job at promoting ANY of its >recent vehicles... Ford has don an all around bad job at all aspects of managing the company.
Ashton Crusher - 22 Oct 2008 07:05 GMT >I saw the ford flex on the lots far before any advertising. Ford >appears to me, has done a terrible job at promoting this vehicle. is [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > >Picasso IMHO Chevy suffers from the same problem. There's just and endless variety of SUV's and Van's and Xovers. There seems to be very little differentiating one from the other. Not to mention that most of them are ugly. As to "badges". Chevy would be doing themselves a BIG favor by getting rid of the stupid looking Chevy "toothy big grill" look and also getting rid of the current version of the Chevy bow tie. That big, squarish, mono-gold Chevy emblem just does NOT look appealing as a decorative badge, it' literally screams CHEAP vehicle because it just looks like a cheap, stamped steel piece of mass produced dullness. If they must keep it at least give it some life. Put some edging around it, give it some depth, SOMETHING other then what looks like a glued on piece of 2 cents worth of 0.0003" think gold anodized recycled aluminum pop cans.
Picasso - 22 Oct 2008 10:12 GMT > On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:38:08 -0700 (PDT), Picasso > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > what looks like a glued on piece of 2 cents worth of 0.0003" think > gold anodized recycled aluminum pop cans. Oh I agree that Chevrolet is just the very same for sure. They throw all the old names out, stick some new emblems on and claim this revamped line that still shares pretty well the same drivetrain... not to mention all the doubling up... Ford has finally got away from that -- I Mean why have a ford and a mercury version of the exact same car -- Mountaineer for example .... how many of THESE are there around.
On the other side, Dodge has really been throwing things around... not saying they're any better than Ford or Chev, and I am certainly no a fan of Dodge, but the new Challenger SRT8 seems to be a well done piece... I've only seen one in passing yesterday before going to their website to check out the new lineup. Shame they had to go the way of Ford and put a V6 in a car with so much potential.
Guess thats another rant... why Ford puts a V6 in a muscle car...
Mike Hunter - 22 Oct 2008 15:47 GMT The Flex is the only vehicle today equated to the station wagon of old. It is a car chassis with scads of room, for those the need it, but do not want an SUV or COV. Drive one then decide, WBMA
>I saw the ford flex on the lots far before any advertising. Ford > appears to me, has done a terrible job at promoting this vehicle. is [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > Picasso
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