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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / October 2008

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worst promoted vehicle -- flex

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Picasso - 22 Oct 2008 01:38 GMT
I saw the ford flex on the lots far before any advertising.  Ford
appears to me, has done a terrible job at promoting this vehicle.  is
ford relying now on dealerships and people "seeing" cars around to
promote their vehicles?

Now is not the time to be styling something as hideous as that and
relying on people thinking it looks like a good vehicle for them to
sell their cars.  Did ford base this on that Honda Generation Y
vehicle that they built about 15,000 of and then quit making them?

Anyway, ford has done an all around bad job at promoting ANY of its
recent vehicles...

Checking the ford website is just a big surprise every 6 months now to
see what else they came out with that my local dealer doesn't even
carry...

Like what is a Taurus X, and why do they need it?  Is there "really" a
market for this?  if so, does it make money?  If so, how does it
differ from the flex?

Fusion.. Taurus... Focus... do we need them all???

Is the Sport Trac really a seller?  Is it necessary to have this?  Why
not can this or the ranger, and just make one or the other in a reg
cab / ext cab / quad cab... why all these lines of vehicles that are
likely not making money??

I own two ford vehicles... might buy another one... but its becoming
less and less likely...

I'm very confused as to how ford thinks they are going to survive...
from what i see, about 1/3 of their vehicles can be taken off the
lots.

Just seems like when you compare ford to Honda or Toyota the menu is
just too large to be remotely profitable, and too few differences
between the choices.  I would be a very leary investor in this company
for sure.

Confused.....

Picasso
Itsfrom Click - 22 Oct 2008 05:22 GMT
well, if they rely on people wanting a Flex after seeing one on the
road, they might as well put the factory up for sale  (if it isn't
already)......I mean, how can anything be that bland and ugly at the
same time - they can put 10 sunroofs on it and it won't help.   It's
hard to imagine that they're working on a Lincoln version - although it
supposedly will have a completely different appearance.

speaking of which - after so many "badge engineered" cars, the new
Lincoln version of the Volvo80/500/Taurus is flying off dealer lots as
soon as they come=in around here......and I'm pleasantly surprised:  not
only has different stying, but a different interior and some engineering
upgrades  (unlike the MKZ version of the Fusion which is not much more
than a different grill).

What's it called?  Is it the MKS???  Another mistake I think companies
are making:  you used to know where a Cadillac deVille, Seville, Eldo or
Fleetwood fell in the hierarchy.......or a Continental, Town Car or
Mark.........but in their rush to be like the imports, makers have
reduced model designations to numbers and letters that have no meaning
to buyers, and replaced a lot of their well-known heraldry with
meaningless chrome blobs.

You'd think they'd learn from Oldsmobile's experience:  first they came
out with a bewildering array of "Cutlass" models, then dropped
well-established model names like 88 and Ninety-Eight to be replaced
with  unknown vagaries like Aurora and Allero, etc.  To make sure nobody
knew what they were, they replaced the Olds crests & symbols with a
shapeless blob, and even left the make off a lot of them:  if you saw
one you liked, there was no way to tell who made it.   Have no idea why
all the others want to imitate such "success":  guess all the interns at
the market research companies went to the same school!
Ashton Crusher - 22 Oct 2008 06:59 GMT
>well, if they rely on people wanting a Flex after seeing one on the
>road, they might as well put the factory up for sale  (if it isn't
>already)......I mean, how can anything be that bland and ugly at the
>same time - they can put 10 sunroofs on it and it won't help.   It's
>hard to imagine that they're working on a Lincoln version - although it
>supposedly will have a completely different appearance.

When Scion came out with their refrigerator on wheels people LOVED it.
When ford comes out with something that actually better looking people
bitch about how it looks.  

>speaking of which - after so many "badge engineered" cars, the new
>Lincoln version of the Volvo80/500/Taurus is flying off dealer lots as
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>all the others want to imitate such "success":  guess all the interns at
>the market research companies went to the same school!
Itsfrom Click - 22 Oct 2008 13:56 GMT
Ashton.......re:  bitching about Flex' looks

you're right:  I was among those who thought the original Scion was
"cute"......they got it all right for the buyers they targeted:
concept, price, size, mileage,  counter-culture image:  even the
sub-brand "Scion" was inspired..

but the "box on wheels" isn't "cute" when it's the size of a box-car and
costs $35,000+.......and to me there's a disconnect between the vehicle
and the "flex" name.  I'm sure it's a practical vehicle for a lot of
buyers and enough won't care about the looks  ---  but FoMoCo is
beginning to look a lot like Chrysler in the 80's:  a successful
chassis, so let's see how many models we can make out of it.   When
Chrysler morphed the K-car into the mini-van, it was a spectacular blend
of existing parts, practicality and a bit of "I always wanted a van"
macho.  Poor Ford is reduced to trumpeting sunroofs and "available
refrigerator".  Gawd.

But they still have a way to go to win the Aztec  "Sow's ear out of
silk" award.
Mike Hunter - 22 Oct 2008 15:57 GMT
You better take another look at the MKZ if that is what you believe.  The
whole interior, as well as the complete front and rear end are entirely
different, not a single body part is interchangeable.   The engine is also
larger   ;)

> speaking of which - after so many "badge engineered" cars, the new
> Lincoln version of the Volvo80/500/Taurus is flying off dealer lots as
> soon as they come=in around here......and I'm pleasantly surprised:  not
> only has different stying, but a different interior and some engineering
> upgrades  (unlike the MKZ version of the Fusion which is not much more
> than a different grill).
C. E. White - 22 Oct 2008 16:09 GMT
> You better take another look at the MKZ if that is what you believe.
> The whole interior, as well as the complete front and rear end are
> entirely different, not a single body part is interchangeable.   The
> engine is also larger   ;)

Different transmission also (Ford built 6 speed vs Aisin-Warner 6
speed in Fusion).

Still, the cars look a lot a like.....

Ed
Itsfrom Click - 22 Oct 2008 18:42 GMT
Mike:  

just to be argumentative  (this group could use a little life-support):

the Lincoln Zephr was pure Fusion - including dash, interior, body
panels, etc. - with a different grill and chrome rings around the cup
holders..  so they got busy and designed some specific bits and renamed
it the MKZ.

55-57 "Hudsons" had different dashes, but were still Nashes........57-58
Packards had different dashes, but were still Studebakers.  I'll accept
the MKS as sufficiently unique:  but then, how many years did it take
Ford Engineering to take a Volvo and call it a Lincoln?  Sad.
C. E. White - 22 Oct 2008 19:30 GMT
> Mike:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> take
> Ford Engineering to take a Volvo and call it a Lincoln?  Sad.

And a Lexus EX350 is just a thinly disguised Camry, The RX300 is just
a rebodied Highlander, the LX570 is just a Land Cruiser, etc, etc,
etc. Ford / Lincoln isn't doing anything much different than
Toyota/Lexus.

Claiming the MKS is just a rebodied Volvo is not correct. They share
nothing of consequence. I suppose you could claim the MKS evolved from
a Volvo platform, but when you change every part, have different
dimensions, and completely different drivetrains, it is hard to claim
something is just rebodied...

Ed
Itsfrom Click - 22 Oct 2008 21:29 GMT
Ed:

I really like the MKS......and when my '06 Five Hundred needs replacing,
I'll consider one.  Speaking of which, the 500 is a Limited with AWD and
CVT.....an alwful lot of parts  right out of the Volvo parts bin, which
isn't a bad thing.  I guess I miss the days when a Mercury was  a
glorified Ford (but had a significantly nicer interior & equipment
level)...and the Lincoln was unique, i.e. how many parts did a 52,'56,
58. or 61 Lincoln share with Ford/Merc. 'Course, those were the days
when a car make was a single line, not a size for everyone.......not to
mention the cost of emission & crash certification which makes unique
models cost prohibitive.

Don't forget where Lexus, Infinity, Acura et al came from:  the US put
quotas on the imports to give domestic makers a breather, so our friends
in Japan started rebadging home-market models as different makes.  Nice
trick.

So.....if GM buys Chrysler, how many nameplates will survive?
Mike Hunter - 23 Oct 2008 17:25 GMT
Jeep   ;)

> Ed:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> So.....if GM buys Chrysler, how many nameplates will survive?
Mike Hunter - 23 Oct 2008 17:07 GMT
Better look a bit closer if that is what you believe.   I know better, I
owned an 06 Zephyr and currently own a '08 MKZ.   My one grand daughter owns
a '08 Fusion, the differences are far more than just the grill.   The grill,
bumper covers, head and tail lamps, fenders, rear quarters and trunk lids,
from one will not fit the other.  The body and chassis are common but that's
all that is common.

As too the new MKS, the basic chassis is NOT a Volvo chassis, it is a Ford
chassis developed by Ford and Volvo engineers, that is the basis for several
derivative vehicles.

Just as was the chassis that was used on the Jaguar S, Lincoln LS, T-Bird
and the 2005 Mustang.  They all had different wheelbases, engines, trannys
and suspension systems on the same basic chassis.    Toyota uses a basic
chassis to make several brands of cars vans and trucks.  Honda even uses a
car chassis to make it so called truck, the Ridgeline

I am a retired automotive design engineer. The reason all  manufactures use
a basic chassis is to enhance their economies of scale and to save the
millions of dollars it costs to certify a completely new chasses to meet
NHTSA standards.  It is far less expensive to certify a derivative chassis

> Mike:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> the MKS as sufficiently unique:  but then, how many years did it take
> Ford Engineering to take a Volvo and call it a Lincoln?  Sad.
C. E. White - 23 Oct 2008 17:42 GMT
> Just as was the chassis that was used on the Jaguar S, Lincoln LS,
> T-Bird and the 2005 Mustang.

I was agreeing with you until you spouted this crap about the 2005
Mustang using the same chassis as the Lincoln LS. It is not and I have
posted many reference to refute this BS every time you repeat it. You
continually repeat this untruth despite overwhelming evidence to the
contrary.

For those who actually don't know you keep making this crap up, here
are some references:

From http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=17268:

"Based on an all-new, fully modern body structure and chassis system
featuring advanced MacPherson struts and a three-link live axle with
Panhard rod, Mustang boasts an overall ride sophistication unmatched
by any of its ancestors. Its braking and handling are nothing short of
world class."

Note the LS, Jaguar S and Thunderbird use double wishbone front
suspension, and idenpendent reas suspension, have compeltely different
engine choices, etc.

From http://wardsautoworld.com/ar/auto_dew_drop/ :

"Inner debates? How about fights, laughs Phil Martens as he describes
the reaction in Ford Motor Co.'s inner sanctums when the decision was
made early in the design of the '05 Mustang to abandon the DEW
platform for an all-new architecture.

"Engineers were not far into the program when it became evident the
expensive DEW98 platform (Lincoln LS, Ford Thunderbird, Jaguar S-Type)
would not provide Mustang with the range and cost-effectiveness
needed, says Martens, Ford group vice president-North America product
creation.

"Controversial as the decision was internally, Martens has no regrets
today.

"The new architecture developed for the Mustang represents a savings
of 30%-35% (for the V-8) compared with what it would have cost to
build the newest pony car off the DEW architecture, he tells Ward's.

"And the entry-level V-6, with a solid rear axle and desired
pricepoint under $20,000, was close to impossible from a platform with
an expensive double-wishbone front suspension and independent rear
suspension.

"The LS (DEW) platform was built with a different cost structure and a
different performance level and didn't have the accommodation that a
traditional Mustang product has," says Martens of the complicated
family with about nine variants planned, from the base coupe to a
high-end $60,000 Cobra R.

"The decision was not made without angst.

"Work on the Mustang started prior to Martens' return to Ford from a
stint at Mazda Motor Corp. two years ago. It began with the working
premise DEW would do the job, a cost-effective use of an existing
platform that played well at a time when the auto maker was
hemorrhaging cash and needed stringent cost-cutting.

"Except it didn't work.

"The business case was not there and the desired product range could
not be achieved. The 4.6L V-8 engine didn't even fit - it would have
required a redesign of the control arms.

""When I came back from Japan (two years ago), I took a look at it and
just cut right to the bone," says Martens.

""The LS architecture is not a low-cost architecture, and it was never
designed to be a low-cost architecture," Martens says. "If you start
out at the high-cost range, you can't bring it down to the low-cost
range," he explains.

"Conversely, "the Mustang architecture is what I would call an
affordable architecture with range," meaning it has "the capability to
take that same basic architecture into high cost (vehicles)."

"The new platform will be profitable, he asserts. Annual sales are
projected at about 170,000 units, and Martens expects Mustang to sell
out for the first three or four years. The architecture should pay for
itself after the first couple of years, during which time the capital
costs will be amortized, he says.

"In terms of range, "you want to have an architecture that can go from
handling low-cost applications for high volume, all the way to
specialty ramifications, such as the Cobra R and a convertible,"
explains Martens.

""That stand requires you to think differently about the total concept
of an architecture capability set.

""So if you look at that type of bandwidth, the capability, it didn't
make sense, over time, as we looked at it, to just pick the LS or the
DEW98 architecture."

"From a clean sheet of paper, engineers derived a layout that, "by
itself, will have an incredible capacity," says Martens.

"At the bottom is a basic Mustang with a 4L V-6, new MacPherson strut
front suspension and 3-link solid rear axle that acts like it's
independent with better damping and spring rates, placement of shocks,
including a Panhard rod to help with torsional stability and overall
attention to geometric alignment for a low-cost, well-balanced
vehicle.

""In reality, the V-6 automatic person doesn't effectively care or
want to know what the rear or front suspensions are," says Martens.
"But they want to know that this is a Mustang - it looks great, sounds
great and drives great."
......"

Ed
Mike Hunter - 23 Oct 2008 18:47 GMT
As I told you before you can believe what you choose, but the fact remains
the 2005 Mustang chassis is a DERIVATIVE of the SAME chassis.  I never said
it is the SAME chassis.

>> Just as was the chassis that was used on the Jaguar S, Lincoln LS, T-Bird
>> and the 2005 Mustang.
[quoted text clipped - 107 lines]
>
> Ed
C. E. White - 23 Oct 2008 19:15 GMT
> As I told you before you can believe what you choose, but the fact
> remains the 2005 Mustang chassis is a DERIVATIVE of the SAME
> chassis.  I never said it is the SAME chassis.

READ WHAT YOU WROTE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! - "Just as was the chassis
that was used on the Jaguar S, Lincoln LS, T-Bird and the 2005
Mustang. They all had different wheelbases, engines, trannys and
suspension systems on the same basic chassis. "

There is no separate chassis on a 2005 Mustang. There is body shell
with mounting points for the suspension. NOT a single mounting point
is shared between the Mustang and the LS (DEW platform). The engine
compartments are a completely different size and shape. The suspension
types and mounting points are entirely different. Drivetrain choices
are different (they do share the automatic transmission type). Nothing
of significance is shared between the two family's chassis. CAREFULLY
read the following from one of my references - " "Inner debates? How
about fights, laughs Phil Martens as he describes the reaction in Ford
Motor Co.'s inner sanctums when the decision was made early in the
design of the '05 Mustang to abandon the DEW platform for an all-new
architecture."

The line about "abandoning the DEW platform for an all-new
architecture"  clearly refutes even your revised claim ("derived
from"). I don't know why you are trying to keep alive this erroneous
idea that the Mustang is somehow closely related to the Lincoln LS.
Back in the early 00's this was the assumed development path and the
press mentioned it frequently, but it never happened that way as the
quotes from Phil Marten (Ford group vice president-North America
product creation) clearly show.

You can't claim one chassis is derived from another unless they share
something of consequence. If you want to interpret "derived from" so
broadly so as to validate your claim that the 2005 Mustang Chassis is
derived from the DEW platform, then you have broadened the term into
meaninglessness. You might as well claim the 2005 Mustang is derived
from the 2004 Mustang - they actually have more in common....at least
as far as front suspension layout and powertrain choices are concerned

Ed

>>> Just as was the chassis that was used on the Jaguar S, Lincoln LS,
>>> T-Bird and the 2005 Mustang.
[quoted text clipped - 113 lines]
>>
>> Ed
Mike Hunter - 23 Oct 2008 20:06 GMT
Get real!  The Jaguar S has very little in common with the LS or the T-bird,
different engines trannys and suspensions but they are all "derived" from
the same basic chassis.  The 04 Mustang has nothing in common with the 05
chassis

I worked in chassis design for the last 15 I worked at Ford.  I helped in
the design of the crumple zones for the first Taurus.   I know and even
trained some the engineers that worked on the 05.

>> As I told you before you can believe what you choose, but the fact
>> remains the 2005 Mustang chassis is a DERIVATIVE of the SAME chassis.  I
[quoted text clipped - 147 lines]
>>>
>>> Ed
C. E. White - 24 Oct 2008 12:36 GMT
> Get real!  The Jaguar S has very little in common with the LS or the
> T-bird, different engines trannys and suspensions but they are all
> "derived" from the same basic chassis.

More bad information.  I suggest you go check your facts on this one.
The original engines in both cars are from the same family, the Jags
engine was tuned differently and had a different intake arrange (and
was rated with more power). Both cars used versions of the same 5
speed automatic transmission (although again, tuned differently).
Front and rear suspension members were the same, but again with
different tuning (different springs and shocks). Interior bits were
even shared. Almost none of this is true when comparing the 05 Mustang
to a Lincoln LS (they do use automatic transmissions from the same
family).

> The 04 Mustang has nothing in common with the 05 chassis

I only said that the 04 has more in common with the 05 than the DEW
platform. This is a true statement. At least the 04 and 05 share V8s
from the same engine family, similar front suspension designs, same
rear axles, etc. The 05 shares nothing with the DEW paltform except
the 5 speed automatic transmission.

> I worked in chassis design for the last 15 I worked at Ford.  I
> helped in the design of the crumple zones for the first Taurus.   I
> know and even trained some the engineers that worked on the 05.

More BS. I worked at Ford a long time ago also. Means nothing as far
as this discussion.

Ed
Mike Hunter - 24 Oct 2008 14:53 GMT
The only ting common with the S engine was the block, although you are
correct it is DERIVED from the same engine.

I still speak to Ford design engineers.  An assembly line worker is far
different than a member of the design teams.

>> Get real!  The Jaguar S has very little in common with the LS or the
>> T-bird, different engines trannys and suspensions but they are all
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Ed
Caesar Romano - 22 Oct 2008 06:10 GMT
>Anyway, ford has done an all around bad job at promoting ANY of its
>recent vehicles...

Ford has don an all around bad job at all aspects of managing the
company.
Ashton Crusher - 22 Oct 2008 07:05 GMT
>I saw the ford flex on the lots far before any advertising.  Ford
>appears to me, has done a terrible job at promoting this vehicle.  is
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
>Picasso

IMHO Chevy suffers from the same problem.  There's just and endless
variety of SUV's and Van's and Xovers.  There seems to be very little
differentiating one from the other.  Not to mention that most of them
are ugly.  As to "badges".  Chevy would be doing themselves a BIG
favor by getting rid of the stupid looking Chevy "toothy big grill"
look and also getting rid of the current version of the Chevy bow tie.
That big, squarish, mono-gold Chevy emblem just does NOT look
appealing as a decorative badge, it' literally screams CHEAP vehicle
because it just looks like a cheap, stamped steel piece of mass
produced dullness.  If they must keep it at least give it some life.
Put some edging around it, give it some depth, SOMETHING other then
what looks like a glued on piece of 2 cents worth of 0.0003" think
gold anodized recycled aluminum pop cans.
Picasso - 22 Oct 2008 10:12 GMT
> On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 17:38:08 -0700 (PDT), Picasso
>
[quoted text clipped - 55 lines]
> what looks like a glued on piece of 2 cents worth of 0.0003" think
> gold anodized recycled aluminum pop cans.

Oh I agree that Chevrolet is just the very same for sure.  They throw
all the old names out, stick some new emblems on and claim this
revamped line that still shares pretty well the same drivetrain... not
to mention all the doubling up... Ford has finally got away from that
-- I Mean why have a ford and a mercury version of the exact same car
-- Mountaineer for example .... how many of THESE are there around.

On the other side, Dodge has really been throwing things around... not
saying they're any better than Ford or Chev, and I am certainly no a
fan of Dodge, but the new Challenger SRT8 seems to be a well done
piece... I've only seen one in passing yesterday before going to their
website to check out the new lineup.  Shame they had to go the way of
Ford and put a V6 in a car with so much potential.

Guess thats another rant... why Ford puts a V6 in a muscle car...
Mike Hunter - 22 Oct 2008 15:47 GMT
The Flex is the only vehicle today equated to the station wagon of old.   It
is a car chassis with scads of room, for those the need it, but do not want
an SUV or COV.   Drive one then decide, WBMA

>I saw the ford flex on the lots far before any advertising.  Ford
> appears to me, has done a terrible job at promoting this vehicle.  is
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> Picasso
 
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