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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / February 2009

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What Is an American Car?

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Jim Higgins - 26 Jan 2009 02:06 GMT
What Is an American Car?
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123265601944607285.html

These Days Its Hard to Tell, and That Could Snag the Push to Save
Detroit Auto Makers

  By JOSEPH B. WHITE

Could there be a more American vehicle than a "Jeep Patriot?" Nothing on
four wheels says American more proudly than Jeep, the rugged brand that
helped America win World War II, and has ferried millions into our wild,
Western spaces since.
Car Quiz

View Interactive

See if you know which vehicles were made in American with our quiz.
http://tinyurl.com/agyy5n

Yes, in fact, there could be a more American SUV than a Jeep Patriot. A
Toyota Sequoia would be one of them. The Sequoia is 80% "domestic"
according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, while
the Jeep Patriot is only 66%.

"Buy American" is back on the agenda in Washington. Congress is debating
proposals to require that contractors on projects financed by the
economic-recovery package buy "American" steel.

The Treasury has pumped billions into the three American car makers with
head offices in and around Detroit, hoping to avoid a collapse of what
industry and political leaders call the U.S. auto industry. There's lots
of talk about the government supporting American efforts to develop
electric cars and batteries, and some federal programs already
established to do this.

When it comes to the car business, however, consumers and Congress and
the Obama administration are going to confront a tricky question: Just
what is an "American" car, or for that matter, an "American" car company?

Once you put down the flags and shut off all the television ads with
their Heartland, apple-pie America imagery, the truth of the car
business is that it transcends national boundaries. A car or truck sold
by a "Detroit" auto maker such as GM, Ford or Chrysler could be less
American -- as defined by the government's standards for "domestic
content" -- than a car sold by Toyota, Honda or Nissan -- all of which
have substantial assembly and components operations in the U.S.

Thomas Klier, an economist with the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago who
has studied extensively the realignment of the American auto industry,
wrote in an October 2007 paper that as of 2006 about 25% of the parts
used in vehicles assembled in the U.S. came from overseas, and another
25% were manufactured here by foreign-owned parts makers. The Detroit
companies wave the Stars and Stripes when they advertise their wares or
look for loans in Washington, but when they talk to investors or the
business press, they stress their aggressive efforts to promote "global
sourcing," a code for, "Buy More Parts from China and Mexico."

GM, the most global of the companies with headquarters in Detroit, has
highlighted to investors that it now sells more cars (and has more
employees) outside the U.S., and that its best opportunities for growth
-- assuming the company's restructuring is successful -- are in China,
Latin America and other developing markets.

Over the next several years, the nationality of the cars sold in America
is likely to become harder to pin down. Ford intends to import to the
U.S. market the European designs for its small and medium-sized cars.
German auto maker Volkswagen is pushing ahead with plans to set up a
U.S. assembly plant again. The BMW X5 sport utility (assembled in South
Carolina) is more American than a Pontiac G8, which is an Australian
import, like Oscar host Hugh Jackman.

For nearly 15 years, the U.S. government has required, under the
American Automobile Labeling Act, that car makers disclose to consumers
what share of the car's components are made in the U.S. or Canada --
another way of saying, made by people paid something comparable to U.S.
wages. A 2001 study by NHTSA found that more than 75% of 646 people
surveyed weren't aware of the existence of the domestic content
information, and only 5% of those surveyed said the disclosures --
usually on a window sticker -- affected their decision "to any degree
whatsoever." The NHTSA study also observed that "the introduction of
AALA labels in model-year 1995 was not followed by a resurgence of
U.S./Canadian parts content in the overall new vehicle fleet, but rather
a modest decline from an average of 70 percent in model year 1995 to
67.6 percent in model year 1998."

The muddle about what constitutes an "American" car is evident in the
fleet of cars I own. Depending on who's at home, you could find a
Saturn, a Chevy, a Toyota and a Subaru crowded into my driveway. Of
these, one was assembled in the U.S. (Extra credit in the accompanying
quiz if you can guess which one.)

Meantime, spare some sympathy for the government officials trying to
sort out where to invest the taxpayers' money to support the "U.S. auto
industry."

Consider Chrysler LLC. During the 1980s and 1990s, Chrysler was the most
flag-waving, red-white-and-blue American car company among Detroit's Big
Three. Company Chairman Lee Iacocca was a clear, loud voice accusing
Japan's government and auto makers of unfair trade practices. Never mind
that Chrysler had a long-standing link to Japan's Mitsubishi Motors
Corp. and sold various Mitsubishi cars. Then, Chrysler sold itself to
Germany's Daimler-Benz AG to create DaimlerChrysler. Not long afterward,
the new German owners installed a German executive to run what used to
be Chrysler -- and began promoting German engineering as a valuable
attribute of its cars.

Confused yet? It gets better. In 2007, Chrysler was reclaimed for
America -- 80.1% of it at least -- by the U.S. hedge fund Cerberus
Capital Management LP. But Chrysler has taken a pounding as the economy
has gone south, and now Cerberus has reached a tentative agreement to
peddle 35% of Chrysler to Italian auto maker Fiat SpA in return for
access to Fiat's engine technology, small car designs and other
technology. Fiat might also use a Chrysler factory to build cars for the
U.S. market and sell its brands through Chrysler dealers. But Fiat isn't
proposing to put any cash into Chrysler. Should this deal be consummated
-- and that's by no means certain -- Chrysler would once again be
majority owned by corporations located outside the U.S.

So what should you buy if you want to buy a truly American-made car? For
the 2008 model year, the government says the Ford Crown Victoria has the
highest percentage of U.S./Canada content at 90%.

The only hitch: It's assembled in Canada.

(Answer: The Camry)

Signature

Civis Romanus Sum

Dioclese - 26 Jan 2009 15:50 GMT
> What Is an American Car?
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123265601944607285.html
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
>
> (Answer: The Camry)

Nothing new in the world market.  For 16 years, I owned an '88 Volkswagen.
Initially, I thought it was a German-made car.  The model, Fox, was
assembled entirely in Brazil.

You'll also find the push to strictly metric measurement a number of years
ago in the U.S.A. conveniently coincided when metric bolts/nuts started to
appear in some American vehicles.

All originating from the push for world trade (code name for cheap labor in
3rd world countries).  Unless you're a baby-boomer, your memory wasn't
mature enough to remember when it started in earnest.  And if not alert
enough, how it sleazed its way into the U.S. economy aided by politicians
and U.S. corporatation's campaign funds and their lobby.  Their grand plan
for maximum profits forgot to consider the eventual near equalization of
labor costs in the long term.  That is not too in the future now.  That will
lead to trade wars.  That's when everyone will get their jobs back...
Signature

Dave

Mike Hunter - 26 Jan 2009 16:36 GMT
That's easy!   Any vehicle built by an American corporation using at least
80% to 85% American parts and MATERIALS, as is the case with GM, Ford and
Chrysler, as described by the US Department of Commerce.

Building a vehicle in the US of primary imported parts and MATERIALS, as is
the case with the foreign owned corporations, is merely an American
ASSEMBLED vehicle, as described by the US Department of Commerce.   Huge
difference

> What Is an American Car?
C. E. White - 26 Jan 2009 17:49 GMT
What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM, and
Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance Mustangs
and Fusions, don't qualify as domestic vehicles).

Ed
> That's easy!   Any vehicle built by an American corporation using at
> least 80% to 85% American parts and MATERIALS, as is the case with
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
>> What Is an American Car?
Mike Hunter - 26 Jan 2009 20:27 GMT
Did you search the US Department of Commerce site to find that opinion?

> What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM, and
> Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance Mustangs and
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>>> What Is an American Car?
C. E. White - 27 Jan 2009 13:15 GMT
....
> > What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM,
> > and Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance
> > Mustangs and Fusions, don't qualify as domestic vehicles).

....
> Did you search the US Department of Commerce site to find that
> opinion?

As you well know, the information is not listed on the US Department
of Commerce site.  I assume you say stuff like this to obscure your
miss-statements. I know that Mustangs and Fusions don't qualify as
domestic vehicles because I read the stickers on the vehicles on the
dealers lot. Try it sometime.

BTW, my statement was not an opinion. It was a statement of a fact.
You can claim the fact is not true, but that doesn't make it an
opinion.

Ed
Jeff - 27 Jan 2009 00:43 GMT
On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com>
wrote:
> What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM, and
> Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance Mustangs
> and Fusions, don't qualify as domestic vehicles).

What domestic content requirements?

The only domestic content requirements is that the content be
displayed on a label on the window at the showroom.

Jeff

> > That's easy!   Any vehicle built by an American corporation using at
> > least 80% to 85% American parts and MATERIALS, as is the case with
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >> --
> >> Civis Romanus Sum
C. E. White - 27 Jan 2009 14:47 GMT
On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com>
wrote:
> > What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM,
> > and
> > Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance
> > Mustangs
> > and Fusions, don't qualify as domestic vehicles).

> What domestic content requirements?

> The only domestic content requirements is that the content be
> displayed on a label on the window at the showroom.

It goes like this.....The domestic content figures into CAFE
regulations, but things are complicated. The window sticker reflects
US/Canada content. Fuel economy rules include US/Canada/Mexico
content. So for some vehicles (Fusion for instance), the window
stickers might indicate a relatively low "Domestic" content (since the
cars are assembled in Mexico, with a significant number of Mexico
sourced parts) but still count as domestic vehicle for CAFE rules.
Other vehicles (maybe the Mustang) count as imports for CAFE. It is
very difficult to find a list of which vehicles fall into which
category. Overall fleet averages are easy to find
(http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/nhtsa_static_file_downloader.jsp?file=/staticfil
es/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Articles/Associated

Files/Nov2008_CAFE_Performance.pdf). For instance, Fords 2008
"domestic" passenger car fleet's CAFE average was 29.8 mpg (thru
November 2008) and Ford's "import" passenger car fleet's CAFE average
was 30.6 mpg (thru November 2008). Unfortunately I can't find a
breakdown of which cars are in which fleet. However, there clearly are
Ford's that don't count as "Domestic" vehicles for purposes of CAFE.
Likewise both GM and Chrysler have Domestic and Imported Passenger Car
Fleets for purposes of CAFE regulations. To qualify as a domestic
vehicle for CAFE purposes, the vehicle must have more than 75%
US/Canada/Mexico content.

Ed
Mike Hunter - 27 Jan 2009 20:02 GMT
Five of my six Mustang GT convertibles, from '99 through '09, had a 80%
content label and were made in one of two plants in Michigan.  One the '05
had a 90% content label and made in the Rouge plant.  ;)

> On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Ed
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2009 19:26 GMT
> Five of my six Mustang GT convertibles, from '99 through '09, had a
> 80% content label and were made in one of two plants in Michigan.
> One the '05 had a 90% content label and made in the Rouge plant.  ;)

Making stuff up again Mike?  I think you have at least two claims
wrong in this post...

I don't think your 2005 or 2009 Mustang were labeled as having 80%
domestic content. There is no way I can verify your claim and I know
you can't. However, I am positive that the label on 2007 Mustangs
claimed 70% domestic content (verified this myself by inspection of
numerous Mustangs on two new cars lots). They all said 70% (V6, V8,
Coupe, Convertible). My research into why they all said the same thing
revealed that it is standard practice to post the average content for
all models for a give model year. Clearly not all Mustangs have the
same domestic contents. I would assume V6 automatic coupe models had
the lowest (European sourced engine and transmission), and V8 manual
convertible models had the highest (NA sourced engiens and
transmissions, plus higher added US content becasue they are
convertibles). However, the average for all models was only 70%. But
that was just for 2007. I did not go back and look when the 2008's
came out. However, if you owned a 2007, I think you are mistaken in
claiming it had a domestic content of 80%. Based on the articles
linked to below, I don't think the label on a 2009 Mustang claims a
domestic content greater than 75% either. I'd stop by the dealers to
confirm this, but I am scared they'd hold me hostage until I bought
something. So, while it is possible (probably likely) that a V8
Convertible Mustangs actually has domestic content of 75% (or
greater), I don't think they are labeled that way.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-03-21-car-content-chart_N.htm?loc=inter
stitialskip

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/355/the-carscom-amer
ican-made-index

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Whose+part+is+it%3F-Measuring+domestic+content+of+
vehicles-a01611030561

http://www.cleveland.com/ontheline/index.ssf?/ontheline/more/120907_us_automaker
s.html


By the way, your 2005 Mustang was built at the Flat Rock Auto Alliance
Plant, not in Dearborn. Production moved to Flat Rock for the
"all-new" 2005 Mustangs.  It is incredible how many things you can get
wrong in a day...

http://media.ford.com/article_print.cfm?press_id=3338
http://media.ford.com/article_print.cfm?article_id=17836
http://media.ford.com/print_doc.cfm?article_id=20249
http://www.mustangheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=177

Ed

>> On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com>
>> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>>
>> Ed
Mike Hunter - 31 Jan 2009 14:25 GMT
Your basic point is correct but I said MY Mustangs GT convertibles, not V6s,
not coupes, which have different content, in reply to the statement
referencing to Mustang content, OK?

>> Five of my six Mustang GT convertibles, from '99 through '09, had a 80%
>> content label and were made in one of two plants in Michigan. One the '05
[quoted text clipped - 76 lines]
>>>
>>> Ed
Ed White - 01 Feb 2009 14:17 GMT
> Your basic point is correct but I said MY Mustangs GT convertibles, not
> V6s, not coupes, which have different content, in reply to the statement
> referencing to Mustang content, OK?

Once again you are making stuff up.  All Mustangs (Coupes and Convertibles)
for a model year get exactly the same parts content label. I verified this
fact this morning. And the label on all the 2009 Mustang Models (Coupe,
convertible, GT, V8, V6, Automatic, Manual) say US/Canadian parts content is
70%, not 80% as you claimed. In addition to the US/Canadian content, the
label also list the country of origin for the engines and transmissions
(V8 -US, V6 - Germany, Automatic Transmission - France, Manual
Transmission - Mexico).

Ed

>>> Five of my six Mustang GT convertibles, from '99 through '09, had a 80%
>>> content label and were made in one of two plants in Michigan. One the
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
>>>>
>>>> Ed
Mike Hunter - 27 Jan 2009 19:51 GMT
Even Camry made totally IN Japan exhibit the same PARTS content labels as
those that are only assembled in the US.    The point is what county is the
origin of the MATERIALS and COMPONENTS to assemble the parts and the cars?

On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com>
wrote:
> What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM, and
> Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance Mustangs
> and Fusions, don't qualify as domestic vehicles).

What domestic content requirements?

The only domestic content requirements is that the content be
displayed on a label on the window at the showroom.

Jeff

> Ed"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> >> --
> >> Civis Romanus Sum
Jeff - 28 Jan 2009 00:22 GMT
> Even Camry made totally IN Japan exhibit the same PARTS content labels as
> those that are only assembled in the US.    The point is what county is the
> origin of the MATERIALS and COMPONENTS to assemble the parts and the cars?

The parts contents labels are for the model. So it includes a weighted
average of cars made inside and outside of the US and Canada.

> On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com>
> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> > >> --
> > >> Civis Romanus Sum
Mike Hunter - 28 Jan 2009 01:58 GMT
You forgot to say assembled in the US and Canada

>> Even Camry made totally IN Japan exhibit the same PARTS content labels as
>> those that are only assembled in the US.    The point is what county is
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>> > >> --
>> > >> Civis Romanus Sum
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2009 19:11 GMT
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Whose+part+is+it%3F-Measuring+domestic+content+of+
vehicles-a01611030561


"Domestic content data
The U.S. federal government uses several approaches to determine the
domestic content of vehicles sold in the United States. All of them
define "domestic" as a geographic concept, rather than strictly by
nation of ownership.

For regulating fuel-efficiency, the U.S. Environmental Protection
Agency considers a vehicle to be domestic if at least 75% of its
content is produced in North America, including Canada and Mexico.

For setting import tariffs, the U.S. Department of Treasury, Customs
Service considers a vehicle to be domestic if it has at least 50% U.S.
or Canadian content.

For informing consumers, the American Automobile Labeling Act of 1992
(AAIA) considers a vehicle to be domestic if at least 85% of its parts
originate in the U.S. or Canada; a part is counted as domestic if at
least 70% of its content comes from the U.S. or Canada."
Dioclese - 27 Jan 2009 09:59 GMT
The percentage you spoke of, is that by weight, by volume, uncategorized
part count, categorized part count,  some stuff counts/some stuff doesn't
count, or just a pair of dice or roulette wheel?

I don't mean to be sarcastic, but can't help it on the vagueness of
percentage basis, and the way many major corporations keep their books
nowadays.

Signature

Dave

> That's easy!   Any vehicle built by an American corporation using at least
> 80% to 85% American parts and MATERIALS, as is the case with GM, Ford and
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>> What Is an American Car?
C. E. White - 27 Jan 2009 14:49 GMT
> The percentage you spoke of, is that by weight, by volume,
> uncategorized part count, categorized part count,  some stuff
> counts/some stuff doesn't count, or just a pair of dice or roulette
> wheel?

It is supposed to be by value (including the cost of labor).

Ed

> I don't mean to be sarcastic, but can't help it on the vagueness of
> percentage basis, and the way many major corporations keep their
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>
>>> What Is an American Car?
Dioclese - 29 Jan 2009 10:33 GMT
"Value", does that mean total parts and labor devoted to that specific
vehicle as the expenditure by the manufacturer to make that vehicle?

Signature

Dave

>> The percentage you spoke of, is that by weight, by volume, uncategorized
>> part count, categorized part count,  some stuff counts/some stuff doesn't
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>>
>>>> What Is an American Car?
razz - 27 Jan 2009 00:18 GMT
That's an easy one. Any car made in Canada, U.S., Mexico, Brazil, Argentina,
etc.
> What Is an American Car?
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123265601944607285.html
[quoted text clipped - 121 lines]
>
> (Answer: The Camry)
C. E. White - 27 Jan 2009 14:58 GMT
> So what should you buy if you want to buy a truly American-made car?
> For
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> (Answer: The Camry)

Not true any longer. According to the most credible source I can find,
the current Camry only includes 68% domestic content.

From
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=amMadeParts&subject=ami :

That doesn't mean dealerships are teeming with cars that have 95
percent domestic content stickers. Those days are behind us; Toyota
reports that in 2007, the industry as a whole saw domestic content
ratings decline, and it looks like the trend is continuing through
2008 and into 2009. Of the most popular cars eligible for last
January's American-Made Index, we saw an average drop of 3.3
percentage points in domestic content between 2007 and 2008. Looking
at a few early '09 arrivals, like the redesigned Honda Pilot and the
Toyota Corolla, it's more of the same. Here's how a handful of top
U.S.-built models fared in the transition to '08 or '09.

* Ford F-150: 80% domestic content, down from 90% for '07
* Chevrolet Silverado 1500: 85% for '08, down from 90% for '07
* Toyota Camry/Solara: 68% for '08, down from 78% for '07
* Honda Accord: 60% for '08, down from 65% for '07
* Toyota Corolla: 50% for '09, down from 65% for '08

.....
Also see
http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/355/the-carscom-amer
ican-made-index


Ed

* Toyota Matrix: 65% for '09, down from 75% for '08
* Dodge Ram: 68% for '08, down from 72% for '07
* Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08
* Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07
Mike Hunter - 27 Jan 2009 20:09 GMT
However, the MATERIALS and the COMPONENTS used to ASSEMBLE the Camry and the
parts do NOT originate in the US or Canada, according the US Commerce
Department.

>> So what should you buy if you want to buy a truly American-made car? For
>> the 2008 model year, the government says the Ford Crown Victoria has the
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> * Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08
> * Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07
Jeff - 28 Jan 2009 00:20 GMT
> However, the MATERIALS and the COMPONENTS used to ASSEMBLE the Camry and the
> parts do NOT originate in the US or Canada, according the US Commerce
> Department.

Bullshit. If I am wrong, post the complete URL of the commerce
department website that shows this. According to the American
Automobile Labeling Act, they have to be made in the US or Canada to
be included on the content label. And Toyota has plenty of capacity to
make the stuff in the US, with engine and transmission plants.

Jeff

Jeff

> >> So what should you buy if you want to buy a truly American-made car? For
> >> the 2008 model year, the government says the Ford Crown Victoria has the
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> > * Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08
> > * Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07
Jim Higgins - 28 Jan 2009 01:32 GMT
>> However, the MATERIALS and the COMPONENTS used to ASSEMBLE the Camry and the
>> parts do NOT originate in the US or Canada, according the US Commerce
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>>> * Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08
>>> * Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07

Don't trouble Mikey about facts, he has none nor can he supply a URL-he
doesn't have that either.

Signature

Civis Romanus Sum

Mike Hunter - 28 Jan 2009 01:57 GMT
Do you own home work.

>> However, the MATERIALS and the COMPONENTS used to ASSEMBLE the Camry and
>> the
[quoted text clipped - 62 lines]
>> > * Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08
>> > * Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07
Jeff - 29 Jan 2009 23:43 GMT
> Do you own home work.

That's Mike's why of saying he has no clue what he is talking about
and doesn't know how to back his statement.

Jeff
Mike Hunter - 30 Jan 2009 15:37 GMT
Your uninformed or misinformed opinion does not deserve a reply

On Jan 27, 8:57 pm, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:
> Do you own home work.

That's Mike's why of saying he has no clue what he is talking about
and doesn't know how to back his statement.

Jeff
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2009 19:36 GMT
> Your uninformed or misinformed opinion does not deserve a reply

Mike,

All you have to do to "inform" us is to supply a link to the mythical
Department of Commerce web site that includes domestic content
information for automobiles. You have made this claim many times and I
am sure there is not such a site. However, you could prove me wrong
with a simple link. Why not do so?

Ed
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2009 19:44 GMT
Mike you might want to review
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809208.PDF . From page ix:

"At this time (2000), summaries of label information - e.g., tables
that list the make-models in each vehicle class by U.S./Canadian parts
content - are not available to consumers via the news media or the
Internet."

Now maybe htis has changed since 2000, but if it has, I still can't
find the information. I have contacted NHTSA and asked how the
information can be obtained. Maybe they'll tell me to ask Mike Hunt...

Ed
Mike Hunter - 31 Jan 2009 14:45 GMT
The problem is you are searching for the wrong thing.  Even Camrys made
ENTIRELY in Japan of Japanese MATERIALS and PARTS, display a NA content
label

If one make the component of a part offshore from materials off shore and
assembles the final part in Canada it will meet the criteria of the NA parts
label.    Not the same as one where the components are made in THE US of
materials made in THE US and assembled in THE US that is counted as factor
used in THE US GNP.

Toyota buys from other Japanese corporations, operating plants in the US
that use Japanese MATERIALS and COMPONENTS to make parts.

Domestics do not use Nippon Steel for instance, they American materials like
steel, plastics, glass etc..  BIG difference when one is talking about what
is MADE in the US and what is only assembled in the US

> Mike you might want to review http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809208.PDF 
> . From page ix:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Ed
clare@snyder.on.ca - 31 Jan 2009 18:07 GMT
>The problem is you are searching for the wrong thing.  Even Camrys made
>ENTIRELY in Japan of Japanese MATERIALS and PARTS, display a NA content
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>>
>> Ed

You are still full of it. Here in Waterloo Region we have many
independent parts manufacturers making parts for Ontario built
Toyotas, from materials sourced here in Canada. Now a LOT of materials
are just plain NOT available in North America from North American
sources as production has been shifted offshore for ecological
reasons. (can't do it hear at the right price and still meet emissions
and workplace safety requirements) so even North American
manufacturers are using Chinese, Indian, or Korean sourced plastics
etc, and virtually all electronic components are offshore
manufactured, including the circuit boards and (possibly) assembled
here.

And don't be too sure the Toyota bodies are made of Nippon steel
either.
Mike Hunter - 31 Jan 2009 14:31 GMT
I do not "save" links to places I have searched.   If I can find the site,
so can others who want to do the deep search needed to find information
about GDP from the US Department of Commerce.  Like I tell our friend Jeff,
do your own homework    ;)

>> Your uninformed or misinformed opinion does not deserve a reply
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Ed
Ed White - 01 Feb 2009 14:19 GMT
>I do not "save" links to places I have searched.   If I can find the site,
>so can others who want to do the deep search needed to find information
>about GDP from the US Department of Commerce.  Like I tell our friend Jeff,
>do your own homework    ;)

That is a ridiculous answer and you know it. I can't remeber the last time
you actually provided any actual evidence for one of your off the wall
claims. You need to quit making stuff up.

Ed

>>> Your uninformed or misinformed opinion does not deserve a reply
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>>
>> Ed
Mike Hunter - 01 Feb 2009 21:44 GMT
You are free to believe what ever you chose.   I could not care less, I know
what I read at that site

>>I do not "save" links to places I have searched.   If I can find the site,
>>so can others who want to do the deep search needed to find information
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>>
>>> Ed
C. E. White - 02 Feb 2009 12:55 GMT
> You are free to believe what ever you chose.   I could not care
> less, I know what I read at that site

Then back it up for once in your life. If it is so easy to find then
take a few minutes from you busy day and help us out.

You constantly say things that are easily proved false. You never
admit it when you are clearly wrong. You just make flip remarks or
claim double secret inside knowledge. I can't prove that there isn't a
publically accessible government web site that provides domestic
content information for cars sold in the US, but I doubt that there
is. I have looked for it repeatedly and never found it. All the
information I have found indicates that the government is deliberately
not making this information readily available. You claim there is a
web site with this information. Given your past history of blatantly
making stuff up, I suspect this is another false Mike Hunt claim.
However, you can easily prove me wrong by just pointing out the web
site.

Ed White
Mike Hunter - 02 Feb 2009 16:14 GMT
You will not find what you are looking for within the NA Parts language.
The information you seek is available on the "US Department of Commerce" web
site.  Once there do a deep search in GNP.

>> You are free to believe what ever you chose.   I could not care less, I
>> know what I read at that site
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Ed White
C. E. White - 02 Feb 2009 17:04 GMT
> You will not find what you are looking for within the NA Parts
> language. The information you seek is available on the "US
> Department of Commerce" web site.  Once there do a deep search in
> GNP.

OK, I did as you suggested and it appears this is just more
miss-direction. As far as I can tell, there is no such link at the
Department of Commerce web site. I assume this was just your latest
attempt  to make it appears as if the information exists. If exists,
posts the link. If you can't post a link, then quit wasting my time
with deliberately miss-leading crap. It is a simple request. For years
you have claimed that there is a site listing doemstic content of
automobiles. Post it, or quit making the claim.

Ed

>>> You are free to believe what ever you chose.   I could not care
>>> less, I know what I read at that site
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>
>> Ed White
Mike Hunter - 02 Feb 2009 19:09 GMT
As I said before if I can find that information so can others.   You can
believe whatever you choose and buy what ever you want to buy, I could not
care less.

In any event you have it backwards.  You are the one posting misinformation,
by always pointing to the NA parts label, that Toyota is American made.
The NA parts label is misleading in that it makes it appear parts assembled
in NA of imported parts a American made.   Toyotas TOTALLY made in Japan
have the same parts label as those ASSEMBLED in the US.   The parts, like
the cars are only assembled in the US, of mostly imported parts and
materials.

Toyota no longer says the Camry in made in America, they say ASSEMBLED in
American of world sourced parts.   Use you head, why would Toyota do that if
the Camry was actually make in America?

>> You will not find what you are looking for within the NA Parts language.
>> The information you seek is available on the "US Department of Commerce"
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>>>
>>> Ed White
C. E. White - 02 Feb 2009 19:37 GMT
> As I said before if I can find that information so can others.   You
> can believe whatever you choose and buy what ever you want to buy, I
> could not care less.

OK, I assume this is your way of saying the link doesn't exist and you
made it up. Fine. Quit making the claim.

> In any event you have it backwards.  You are the one posting
> misinformation, by always pointing to the NA parts label, that
> Toyota is American made.

I have never made this claim. You are either confusing me with someone
else, or just makig stuff up <again>.

> The NA parts label is misleading in that it makes it appear parts
> assembled in NA of imported parts a American made.   Toyotas TOTALLY
> made in Japan have the same parts label as those ASSEMBLED in the
> US.   The parts, like the cars are only assembled in the US, of
> mostly imported parts and materials.

This is true and I have never claimed anything else. In fact I have
posted links that describe the parts content label that support this
statement. For a given car line, the NA content label will generally
list the same NA content no matter where the vehicle is assembled (it
sometimes changes during a model year - particularly for cars like the
Camry, where the percentage of complete cars imported changes). This
can be misleading, since it may show all Camry's have having a 65% NA
content, when in fact, some cars come from Japan and have nearly 100%
Japan content. However, the flip side is that US assembled Camrys must
have a much higher than 65% contnet, since the average content on
their label is pulled down by the Camry's imported from Japan.

> Toyota no longer says the Camry in made in America, they say
> ASSEMBLED in American of world sourced parts.   Use you head, why
> would Toyota do that if the Camry was actually make in America?

Maybe becasue they are being honest, but more likely becasue they are
now importing a higher percentage of Camrys, or Camry parts from
Japan. It might also be becasue someone sic'd the FTC on them :) The
rules for labeling products "as made in the US"  are available on line
(see http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm ). Ford
should say the same thing about Mustangs, or Fusions as Toyota says
about Camrys. I doubt you can find a single vehicle sold in the US
that has 100% US, or even 100% North American sourced parts. Only a
few (like the F150) qualify as "Assembled in USA" without
qualification.

Regards,

Ed White

>>> You will not find what you are looking for within the NA Parts
>>> language. The information you seek is available on the "US
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>>>>
>>>> Ed White
Timothy J. Lee - 17 Feb 2009 02:16 GMT
>However, the MATERIALS and the COMPONENTS used to ASSEMBLE the Camry and the
>parts do NOT originate in the US or Canada, according the US Commerce
>Department.

http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.e649cd1b2b
018c71d8eca01046108a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=4427b997caacf504a8bdba101891ef9a_ws_M
X&javax.portlet.prp_4427b997caacf504a8bdba101891ef9a_viewID=detail_view&itemID=5
39ed5c474a5a110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD&viewType=standard


Gives US/Canada origin parts content and location of assembly for
2005-2009 vehicles sold in the US (though 2009 is incomplete now).

According to the stuff there, the 2009 Camry (non-hybrid) has 75%
US/Canada origin parts.  For 2008 and 2007, the percentage was 70%
and 75% respectively.  Final assembly is listed as being both
US/Canada and outside (which you can determine for each individual
car by looking at the first character of the VIN).

Signature

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome.
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.

Jeff - 17 Feb 2009 23:45 GMT
I didn't know that there was a site with the info.

Thanks for posting it.

Jeff
 
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