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What Is an American Car?
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Jim Higgins - 26 Jan 2009 02:06 GMT What Is an American Car? http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123265601944607285.html
These Days Its Hard to Tell, and That Could Snag the Push to Save Detroit Auto Makers
By JOSEPH B. WHITE
Could there be a more American vehicle than a "Jeep Patriot?" Nothing on four wheels says American more proudly than Jeep, the rugged brand that helped America win World War II, and has ferried millions into our wild, Western spaces since. Car Quiz
View Interactive
See if you know which vehicles were made in American with our quiz. http://tinyurl.com/agyy5n
Yes, in fact, there could be a more American SUV than a Jeep Patriot. A Toyota Sequoia would be one of them. The Sequoia is 80% "domestic" according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, while the Jeep Patriot is only 66%.
"Buy American" is back on the agenda in Washington. Congress is debating proposals to require that contractors on projects financed by the economic-recovery package buy "American" steel.
The Treasury has pumped billions into the three American car makers with head offices in and around Detroit, hoping to avoid a collapse of what industry and political leaders call the U.S. auto industry. There's lots of talk about the government supporting American efforts to develop electric cars and batteries, and some federal programs already established to do this.
When it comes to the car business, however, consumers and Congress and the Obama administration are going to confront a tricky question: Just what is an "American" car, or for that matter, an "American" car company?
Once you put down the flags and shut off all the television ads with their Heartland, apple-pie America imagery, the truth of the car business is that it transcends national boundaries. A car or truck sold by a "Detroit" auto maker such as GM, Ford or Chrysler could be less American -- as defined by the government's standards for "domestic content" -- than a car sold by Toyota, Honda or Nissan -- all of which have substantial assembly and components operations in the U.S.
Thomas Klier, an economist with the Federal Reserve Bank of Chicago who has studied extensively the realignment of the American auto industry, wrote in an October 2007 paper that as of 2006 about 25% of the parts used in vehicles assembled in the U.S. came from overseas, and another 25% were manufactured here by foreign-owned parts makers. The Detroit companies wave the Stars and Stripes when they advertise their wares or look for loans in Washington, but when they talk to investors or the business press, they stress their aggressive efforts to promote "global sourcing," a code for, "Buy More Parts from China and Mexico."
GM, the most global of the companies with headquarters in Detroit, has highlighted to investors that it now sells more cars (and has more employees) outside the U.S., and that its best opportunities for growth -- assuming the company's restructuring is successful -- are in China, Latin America and other developing markets.
Over the next several years, the nationality of the cars sold in America is likely to become harder to pin down. Ford intends to import to the U.S. market the European designs for its small and medium-sized cars. German auto maker Volkswagen is pushing ahead with plans to set up a U.S. assembly plant again. The BMW X5 sport utility (assembled in South Carolina) is more American than a Pontiac G8, which is an Australian import, like Oscar host Hugh Jackman.
For nearly 15 years, the U.S. government has required, under the American Automobile Labeling Act, that car makers disclose to consumers what share of the car's components are made in the U.S. or Canada -- another way of saying, made by people paid something comparable to U.S. wages. A 2001 study by NHTSA found that more than 75% of 646 people surveyed weren't aware of the existence of the domestic content information, and only 5% of those surveyed said the disclosures -- usually on a window sticker -- affected their decision "to any degree whatsoever." The NHTSA study also observed that "the introduction of AALA labels in model-year 1995 was not followed by a resurgence of U.S./Canadian parts content in the overall new vehicle fleet, but rather a modest decline from an average of 70 percent in model year 1995 to 67.6 percent in model year 1998."
The muddle about what constitutes an "American" car is evident in the fleet of cars I own. Depending on who's at home, you could find a Saturn, a Chevy, a Toyota and a Subaru crowded into my driveway. Of these, one was assembled in the U.S. (Extra credit in the accompanying quiz if you can guess which one.)
Meantime, spare some sympathy for the government officials trying to sort out where to invest the taxpayers' money to support the "U.S. auto industry."
Consider Chrysler LLC. During the 1980s and 1990s, Chrysler was the most flag-waving, red-white-and-blue American car company among Detroit's Big Three. Company Chairman Lee Iacocca was a clear, loud voice accusing Japan's government and auto makers of unfair trade practices. Never mind that Chrysler had a long-standing link to Japan's Mitsubishi Motors Corp. and sold various Mitsubishi cars. Then, Chrysler sold itself to Germany's Daimler-Benz AG to create DaimlerChrysler. Not long afterward, the new German owners installed a German executive to run what used to be Chrysler -- and began promoting German engineering as a valuable attribute of its cars.
Confused yet? It gets better. In 2007, Chrysler was reclaimed for America -- 80.1% of it at least -- by the U.S. hedge fund Cerberus Capital Management LP. But Chrysler has taken a pounding as the economy has gone south, and now Cerberus has reached a tentative agreement to peddle 35% of Chrysler to Italian auto maker Fiat SpA in return for access to Fiat's engine technology, small car designs and other technology. Fiat might also use a Chrysler factory to build cars for the U.S. market and sell its brands through Chrysler dealers. But Fiat isn't proposing to put any cash into Chrysler. Should this deal be consummated -- and that's by no means certain -- Chrysler would once again be majority owned by corporations located outside the U.S.
So what should you buy if you want to buy a truly American-made car? For the 2008 model year, the government says the Ford Crown Victoria has the highest percentage of U.S./Canada content at 90%.
The only hitch: It's assembled in Canada.
(Answer: The Camry)
 Signature Civis Romanus Sum
Dioclese - 26 Jan 2009 15:50 GMT > What Is an American Car? > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123265601944607285.html [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > > (Answer: The Camry) Nothing new in the world market. For 16 years, I owned an '88 Volkswagen. Initially, I thought it was a German-made car. The model, Fox, was assembled entirely in Brazil.
You'll also find the push to strictly metric measurement a number of years ago in the U.S.A. conveniently coincided when metric bolts/nuts started to appear in some American vehicles.
All originating from the push for world trade (code name for cheap labor in 3rd world countries). Unless you're a baby-boomer, your memory wasn't mature enough to remember when it started in earnest. And if not alert enough, how it sleazed its way into the U.S. economy aided by politicians and U.S. corporatation's campaign funds and their lobby. Their grand plan for maximum profits forgot to consider the eventual near equalization of labor costs in the long term. That is not too in the future now. That will lead to trade wars. That's when everyone will get their jobs back...
 Signature Dave
Mike Hunter - 26 Jan 2009 16:36 GMT That's easy! Any vehicle built by an American corporation using at least 80% to 85% American parts and MATERIALS, as is the case with GM, Ford and Chrysler, as described by the US Department of Commerce.
Building a vehicle in the US of primary imported parts and MATERIALS, as is the case with the foreign owned corporations, is merely an American ASSEMBLED vehicle, as described by the US Department of Commerce. Huge difference
> What Is an American Car? C. E. White - 26 Jan 2009 17:49 GMT What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM, and Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance Mustangs and Fusions, don't qualify as domestic vehicles).
Ed
> That's easy! Any vehicle built by an American corporation using at > least 80% to 85% American parts and MATERIALS, as is the case with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> What Is an American Car? Mike Hunter - 26 Jan 2009 20:27 GMT Did you search the US Department of Commerce site to find that opinion?
> What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM, and > Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance Mustangs and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >>> What Is an American Car? C. E. White - 27 Jan 2009 13:15 GMT ....
> > What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM, > > and Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance > > Mustangs and Fusions, don't qualify as domestic vehicles). ....
> Did you search the US Department of Commerce site to find that > opinion? As you well know, the information is not listed on the US Department of Commerce site. I assume you say stuff like this to obscure your miss-statements. I know that Mustangs and Fusions don't qualify as domestic vehicles because I read the stickers on the vehicles on the dealers lot. Try it sometime.
BTW, my statement was not an opinion. It was a statement of a fact. You can claim the fact is not true, but that doesn't make it an opinion.
Ed
Jeff - 27 Jan 2009 00:43 GMT On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> wrote:
> What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM, and > Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance Mustangs > and Fusions, don't qualify as domestic vehicles). What domestic content requirements?
The only domestic content requirements is that the content be displayed on a label on the window at the showroom.
Jeff
> > That's easy! Any vehicle built by an American corporation using at > > least 80% to 85% American parts and MATERIALS, as is the case with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >> -- > >> Civis Romanus Sum C. E. White - 27 Jan 2009 14:47 GMT On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> wrote:
> > What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM, > > and > > Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance > > Mustangs > > and Fusions, don't qualify as domestic vehicles).
> What domestic content requirements?
> The only domestic content requirements is that the content be > displayed on a label on the window at the showroom. It goes like this.....The domestic content figures into CAFE regulations, but things are complicated. The window sticker reflects US/Canada content. Fuel economy rules include US/Canada/Mexico content. So for some vehicles (Fusion for instance), the window stickers might indicate a relatively low "Domestic" content (since the cars are assembled in Mexico, with a significant number of Mexico sourced parts) but still count as domestic vehicle for CAFE rules. Other vehicles (maybe the Mustang) count as imports for CAFE. It is very difficult to find a list of which vehicles fall into which category. Overall fleet averages are easy to find (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/nhtsa_static_file_downloader.jsp?file=/staticfil es/DOT/NHTSA/Rulemaking/Articles/Associated Files/Nov2008_CAFE_Performance.pdf). For instance, Fords 2008 "domestic" passenger car fleet's CAFE average was 29.8 mpg (thru November 2008) and Ford's "import" passenger car fleet's CAFE average was 30.6 mpg (thru November 2008). Unfortunately I can't find a breakdown of which cars are in which fleet. However, there clearly are Ford's that don't count as "Domestic" vehicles for purposes of CAFE. Likewise both GM and Chrysler have Domestic and Imported Passenger Car Fleets for purposes of CAFE regulations. To qualify as a domestic vehicle for CAFE purposes, the vehicle must have more than 75% US/Canada/Mexico content.
Ed
Mike Hunter - 27 Jan 2009 20:02 GMT Five of my six Mustang GT convertibles, from '99 through '09, had a 80% content label and were made in one of two plants in Michigan. One the '05 had a 90% content label and made in the Rouge plant. ;)
> On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Ed C. E. White - 30 Jan 2009 19:26 GMT > Five of my six Mustang GT convertibles, from '99 through '09, had a > 80% content label and were made in one of two plants in Michigan. > One the '05 had a 90% content label and made in the Rouge plant. ;) Making stuff up again Mike? I think you have at least two claims wrong in this post...
I don't think your 2005 or 2009 Mustang were labeled as having 80% domestic content. There is no way I can verify your claim and I know you can't. However, I am positive that the label on 2007 Mustangs claimed 70% domestic content (verified this myself by inspection of numerous Mustangs on two new cars lots). They all said 70% (V6, V8, Coupe, Convertible). My research into why they all said the same thing revealed that it is standard practice to post the average content for all models for a give model year. Clearly not all Mustangs have the same domestic contents. I would assume V6 automatic coupe models had the lowest (European sourced engine and transmission), and V8 manual convertible models had the highest (NA sourced engiens and transmissions, plus higher added US content becasue they are convertibles). However, the average for all models was only 70%. But that was just for 2007. I did not go back and look when the 2008's came out. However, if you owned a 2007, I think you are mistaken in claiming it had a domestic content of 80%. Based on the articles linked to below, I don't think the label on a 2009 Mustang claims a domestic content greater than 75% either. I'd stop by the dealers to confirm this, but I am scared they'd hold me hostage until I bought something. So, while it is possible (probably likely) that a V8 Convertible Mustangs actually has domestic content of 75% (or greater), I don't think they are labeled that way.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2007-03-21-car-content-chart_N.htm?loc=inter stitialskip http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/355/the-carscom-amer ican-made-index http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Whose+part+is+it%3F-Measuring+domestic+content+of+ vehicles-a01611030561 http://www.cleveland.com/ontheline/index.ssf?/ontheline/more/120907_us_automaker s.html
By the way, your 2005 Mustang was built at the Flat Rock Auto Alliance Plant, not in Dearborn. Production moved to Flat Rock for the "all-new" 2005 Mustangs. It is incredible how many things you can get wrong in a day...
http://media.ford.com/article_print.cfm?press_id=3338 http://media.ford.com/article_print.cfm?article_id=17836 http://media.ford.com/print_doc.cfm?article_id=20249 http://www.mustangheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=177
Ed
>> On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> >> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> >> Ed Mike Hunter - 31 Jan 2009 14:25 GMT Your basic point is correct but I said MY Mustangs GT convertibles, not V6s, not coupes, which have different content, in reply to the statement referencing to Mustang content, OK?
>> Five of my six Mustang GT convertibles, from '99 through '09, had a 80% >> content label and were made in one of two plants in Michigan. One the '05 [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] >>> >>> Ed Ed White - 01 Feb 2009 14:17 GMT > Your basic point is correct but I said MY Mustangs GT convertibles, not > V6s, not coupes, which have different content, in reply to the statement > referencing to Mustang content, OK? Once again you are making stuff up. All Mustangs (Coupes and Convertibles) for a model year get exactly the same parts content label. I verified this fact this morning. And the label on all the 2009 Mustang Models (Coupe, convertible, GT, V8, V6, Automatic, Manual) say US/Canadian parts content is 70%, not 80% as you claimed. In addition to the US/Canadian content, the label also list the country of origin for the engines and transmissions (V8 -US, V6 - Germany, Automatic Transmission - France, Manual Transmission - Mexico).
Ed
>>> Five of my six Mustang GT convertibles, from '99 through '09, had a 80% >>> content label and were made in one of two plants in Michigan. One the [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] >>>> >>>> Ed Mike Hunter - 27 Jan 2009 19:51 GMT Even Camry made totally IN Japan exhibit the same PARTS content labels as those that are only assembled in the US. The point is what county is the origin of the MATERIALS and COMPONENTS to assemble the parts and the cars?
On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> wrote:
> What you say is true, except not all vehicles built by Ford, GM, and > Chrysler meet the domestic content requirements (for instance Mustangs > and Fusions, don't qualify as domestic vehicles). What domestic content requirements?
The only domestic content requirements is that the content be displayed on a label on the window at the showroom.
Jeff
> Ed"Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >> -- > >> Civis Romanus Sum Jeff - 28 Jan 2009 00:22 GMT > Even Camry made totally IN Japan exhibit the same PARTS content labels as > those that are only assembled in the US. The point is what county is the > origin of the MATERIALS and COMPONENTS to assemble the parts and the cars? The parts contents labels are for the model. So it includes a weighted average of cars made inside and outside of the US and Canada.
> On Jan 26, 12:49 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@removemindspring.com> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > >> -- > > >> Civis Romanus Sum Mike Hunter - 28 Jan 2009 01:58 GMT You forgot to say assembled in the US and Canada
>> Even Camry made totally IN Japan exhibit the same PARTS content labels as >> those that are only assembled in the US. The point is what county is [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> > >> -- >> > >> Civis Romanus Sum C. E. White - 30 Jan 2009 19:11 GMT http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Whose+part+is+it%3F-Measuring+domestic+content+of+ vehicles-a01611030561
"Domestic content data The U.S. federal government uses several approaches to determine the domestic content of vehicles sold in the United States. All of them define "domestic" as a geographic concept, rather than strictly by nation of ownership.
For regulating fuel-efficiency, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency considers a vehicle to be domestic if at least 75% of its content is produced in North America, including Canada and Mexico.
For setting import tariffs, the U.S. Department of Treasury, Customs Service considers a vehicle to be domestic if it has at least 50% U.S. or Canadian content.
For informing consumers, the American Automobile Labeling Act of 1992 (AAIA) considers a vehicle to be domestic if at least 85% of its parts originate in the U.S. or Canada; a part is counted as domestic if at least 70% of its content comes from the U.S. or Canada."
Dioclese - 27 Jan 2009 09:59 GMT The percentage you spoke of, is that by weight, by volume, uncategorized part count, categorized part count, some stuff counts/some stuff doesn't count, or just a pair of dice or roulette wheel?
I don't mean to be sarcastic, but can't help it on the vagueness of percentage basis, and the way many major corporations keep their books nowadays.
 Signature Dave
> That's easy! Any vehicle built by an American corporation using at least > 80% to 85% American parts and MATERIALS, as is the case with GM, Ford and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >> What Is an American Car? C. E. White - 27 Jan 2009 14:49 GMT > The percentage you spoke of, is that by weight, by volume, > uncategorized part count, categorized part count, some stuff > counts/some stuff doesn't count, or just a pair of dice or roulette > wheel? It is supposed to be by value (including the cost of labor).
Ed
> I don't mean to be sarcastic, but can't help it on the vagueness of > percentage basis, and the way many major corporations keep their [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >>> What Is an American Car? Dioclese - 29 Jan 2009 10:33 GMT "Value", does that mean total parts and labor devoted to that specific vehicle as the expenditure by the manufacturer to make that vehicle?
 Signature Dave
>> The percentage you spoke of, is that by weight, by volume, uncategorized >> part count, categorized part count, some stuff counts/some stuff doesn't [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>> >>>> What Is an American Car? razz - 27 Jan 2009 00:18 GMT That's an easy one. Any car made in Canada, U.S., Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, etc.
> What Is an American Car? > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123265601944607285.html [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > > (Answer: The Camry) C. E. White - 27 Jan 2009 14:58 GMT > So what should you buy if you want to buy a truly American-made car? > For [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > (Answer: The Camry) Not true any longer. According to the most credible source I can find, the current Camry only includes 68% domestic content.
From http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=amMadeParts&subject=ami :
That doesn't mean dealerships are teeming with cars that have 95 percent domestic content stickers. Those days are behind us; Toyota reports that in 2007, the industry as a whole saw domestic content ratings decline, and it looks like the trend is continuing through 2008 and into 2009. Of the most popular cars eligible for last January's American-Made Index, we saw an average drop of 3.3 percentage points in domestic content between 2007 and 2008. Looking at a few early '09 arrivals, like the redesigned Honda Pilot and the Toyota Corolla, it's more of the same. Here's how a handful of top U.S.-built models fared in the transition to '08 or '09.
* Ford F-150: 80% domestic content, down from 90% for '07 * Chevrolet Silverado 1500: 85% for '08, down from 90% for '07 * Toyota Camry/Solara: 68% for '08, down from 78% for '07 * Honda Accord: 60% for '08, down from 65% for '07 * Toyota Corolla: 50% for '09, down from 65% for '08
..... Also see http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/autos_content_landing_pages/355/the-carscom-amer ican-made-index
Ed
* Toyota Matrix: 65% for '09, down from 75% for '08 * Dodge Ram: 68% for '08, down from 72% for '07 * Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08 * Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07
Mike Hunter - 27 Jan 2009 20:09 GMT However, the MATERIALS and the COMPONENTS used to ASSEMBLE the Camry and the parts do NOT originate in the US or Canada, according the US Commerce Department.
>> So what should you buy if you want to buy a truly American-made car? For >> the 2008 model year, the government says the Ford Crown Victoria has the [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > * Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08 > * Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07 Jeff - 28 Jan 2009 00:20 GMT > However, the MATERIALS and the COMPONENTS used to ASSEMBLE the Camry and the > parts do NOT originate in the US or Canada, according the US Commerce > Department. Bullshit. If I am wrong, post the complete URL of the commerce department website that shows this. According to the American Automobile Labeling Act, they have to be made in the US or Canada to be included on the content label. And Toyota has plenty of capacity to make the stuff in the US, with engine and transmission plants.
Jeff
Jeff
> >> So what should you buy if you want to buy a truly American-made car? For > >> the 2008 model year, the government says the Ford Crown Victoria has the [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > * Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08 > > * Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07 Jim Higgins - 28 Jan 2009 01:32 GMT >> However, the MATERIALS and the COMPONENTS used to ASSEMBLE the Camry and the >> parts do NOT originate in the US or Canada, according the US Commerce [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >>> * Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08 >>> * Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07 Don't trouble Mikey about facts, he has none nor can he supply a URL-he doesn't have that either.
 Signature Civis Romanus Sum
Mike Hunter - 28 Jan 2009 01:57 GMT Do you own home work.
>> However, the MATERIALS and the COMPONENTS used to ASSEMBLE the Camry and >> the [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >> > * Honda Pilot: 70% for '09, same as '08 >> > * Honda Civic: 70% for '08, up from 55% for '07 Jeff - 29 Jan 2009 23:43 GMT > Do you own home work. That's Mike's why of saying he has no clue what he is talking about and doesn't know how to back his statement.
Jeff
Mike Hunter - 30 Jan 2009 15:37 GMT Your uninformed or misinformed opinion does not deserve a reply
On Jan 27, 8:57 pm, "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@lycos/com> wrote:
> Do you own home work. That's Mike's why of saying he has no clue what he is talking about and doesn't know how to back his statement.
Jeff
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2009 19:36 GMT > Your uninformed or misinformed opinion does not deserve a reply Mike,
All you have to do to "inform" us is to supply a link to the mythical Department of Commerce web site that includes domestic content information for automobiles. You have made this claim many times and I am sure there is not such a site. However, you could prove me wrong with a simple link. Why not do so?
Ed
C. E. White - 30 Jan 2009 19:44 GMT Mike you might want to review http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809208.PDF . From page ix:
"At this time (2000), summaries of label information - e.g., tables that list the make-models in each vehicle class by U.S./Canadian parts content - are not available to consumers via the news media or the Internet."
Now maybe htis has changed since 2000, but if it has, I still can't find the information. I have contacted NHTSA and asked how the information can be obtained. Maybe they'll tell me to ask Mike Hunt...
Ed
Mike Hunter - 31 Jan 2009 14:45 GMT The problem is you are searching for the wrong thing. Even Camrys made ENTIRELY in Japan of Japanese MATERIALS and PARTS, display a NA content label
If one make the component of a part offshore from materials off shore and assembles the final part in Canada it will meet the criteria of the NA parts label. Not the same as one where the components are made in THE US of materials made in THE US and assembled in THE US that is counted as factor used in THE US GNP.
Toyota buys from other Japanese corporations, operating plants in the US that use Japanese MATERIALS and COMPONENTS to make parts.
Domestics do not use Nippon Steel for instance, they American materials like steel, plastics, glass etc.. BIG difference when one is talking about what is MADE in the US and what is only assembled in the US
> Mike you might want to review http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/809208.PDF > . From page ix: [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Ed clare@snyder.on.ca - 31 Jan 2009 18:07 GMT >The problem is you are searching for the wrong thing. Even Camrys made >ENTIRELY in Japan of Japanese MATERIALS and PARTS, display a NA content [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >> >> Ed You are still full of it. Here in Waterloo Region we have many independent parts manufacturers making parts for Ontario built Toyotas, from materials sourced here in Canada. Now a LOT of materials are just plain NOT available in North America from North American sources as production has been shifted offshore for ecological reasons. (can't do it hear at the right price and still meet emissions and workplace safety requirements) so even North American manufacturers are using Chinese, Indian, or Korean sourced plastics etc, and virtually all electronic components are offshore manufactured, including the circuit boards and (possibly) assembled here.
And don't be too sure the Toyota bodies are made of Nippon steel either.
Mike Hunter - 31 Jan 2009 14:31 GMT I do not "save" links to places I have searched. If I can find the site, so can others who want to do the deep search needed to find information about GDP from the US Department of Commerce. Like I tell our friend Jeff, do your own homework ;)
>> Your uninformed or misinformed opinion does not deserve a reply > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ed Ed White - 01 Feb 2009 14:19 GMT >I do not "save" links to places I have searched. If I can find the site, >so can others who want to do the deep search needed to find information >about GDP from the US Department of Commerce. Like I tell our friend Jeff, >do your own homework ;) That is a ridiculous answer and you know it. I can't remeber the last time you actually provided any actual evidence for one of your off the wall claims. You need to quit making stuff up.
Ed
>>> Your uninformed or misinformed opinion does not deserve a reply >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >> Ed Mike Hunter - 01 Feb 2009 21:44 GMT You are free to believe what ever you chose. I could not care less, I know what I read at that site
>>I do not "save" links to places I have searched. If I can find the site, >>so can others who want to do the deep search needed to find information [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>> >>> Ed C. E. White - 02 Feb 2009 12:55 GMT > You are free to believe what ever you chose. I could not care > less, I know what I read at that site Then back it up for once in your life. If it is so easy to find then take a few minutes from you busy day and help us out.
You constantly say things that are easily proved false. You never admit it when you are clearly wrong. You just make flip remarks or claim double secret inside knowledge. I can't prove that there isn't a publically accessible government web site that provides domestic content information for cars sold in the US, but I doubt that there is. I have looked for it repeatedly and never found it. All the information I have found indicates that the government is deliberately not making this information readily available. You claim there is a web site with this information. Given your past history of blatantly making stuff up, I suspect this is another false Mike Hunt claim. However, you can easily prove me wrong by just pointing out the web site.
Ed White
Mike Hunter - 02 Feb 2009 16:14 GMT You will not find what you are looking for within the NA Parts language. The information you seek is available on the "US Department of Commerce" web site. Once there do a deep search in GNP.
>> You are free to believe what ever you chose. I could not care less, I >> know what I read at that site [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ed White C. E. White - 02 Feb 2009 17:04 GMT > You will not find what you are looking for within the NA Parts > language. The information you seek is available on the "US > Department of Commerce" web site. Once there do a deep search in > GNP. OK, I did as you suggested and it appears this is just more miss-direction. As far as I can tell, there is no such link at the Department of Commerce web site. I assume this was just your latest attempt to make it appears as if the information exists. If exists, posts the link. If you can't post a link, then quit wasting my time with deliberately miss-leading crap. It is a simple request. For years you have claimed that there is a site listing doemstic content of automobiles. Post it, or quit making the claim.
Ed
>>> You are free to believe what ever you chose. I could not care >>> less, I know what I read at that site [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Ed White Mike Hunter - 02 Feb 2009 19:09 GMT As I said before if I can find that information so can others. You can believe whatever you choose and buy what ever you want to buy, I could not care less.
In any event you have it backwards. You are the one posting misinformation, by always pointing to the NA parts label, that Toyota is American made. The NA parts label is misleading in that it makes it appear parts assembled in NA of imported parts a American made. Toyotas TOTALLY made in Japan have the same parts label as those ASSEMBLED in the US. The parts, like the cars are only assembled in the US, of mostly imported parts and materials.
Toyota no longer says the Camry in made in America, they say ASSEMBLED in American of world sourced parts. Use you head, why would Toyota do that if the Camry was actually make in America?
>> You will not find what you are looking for within the NA Parts language. >> The information you seek is available on the "US Department of Commerce" [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>> >>> Ed White C. E. White - 02 Feb 2009 19:37 GMT > As I said before if I can find that information so can others. You > can believe whatever you choose and buy what ever you want to buy, I > could not care less. OK, I assume this is your way of saying the link doesn't exist and you made it up. Fine. Quit making the claim.
> In any event you have it backwards. You are the one posting > misinformation, by always pointing to the NA parts label, that > Toyota is American made. I have never made this claim. You are either confusing me with someone else, or just makig stuff up <again>.
> The NA parts label is misleading in that it makes it appear parts > assembled in NA of imported parts a American made. Toyotas TOTALLY > made in Japan have the same parts label as those ASSEMBLED in the > US. The parts, like the cars are only assembled in the US, of > mostly imported parts and materials. This is true and I have never claimed anything else. In fact I have posted links that describe the parts content label that support this statement. For a given car line, the NA content label will generally list the same NA content no matter where the vehicle is assembled (it sometimes changes during a model year - particularly for cars like the Camry, where the percentage of complete cars imported changes). This can be misleading, since it may show all Camry's have having a 65% NA content, when in fact, some cars come from Japan and have nearly 100% Japan content. However, the flip side is that US assembled Camrys must have a much higher than 65% contnet, since the average content on their label is pulled down by the Camry's imported from Japan.
> Toyota no longer says the Camry in made in America, they say > ASSEMBLED in American of world sourced parts. Use you head, why > would Toyota do that if the Camry was actually make in America? Maybe becasue they are being honest, but more likely becasue they are now importing a higher percentage of Camrys, or Camry parts from Japan. It might also be becasue someone sic'd the FTC on them :) The rules for labeling products "as made in the US" are available on line (see http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/edu/pubs/business/adv/bus03.shtm ). Ford should say the same thing about Mustangs, or Fusions as Toyota says about Camrys. I doubt you can find a single vehicle sold in the US that has 100% US, or even 100% North American sourced parts. Only a few (like the F150) qualify as "Assembled in USA" without qualification.
Regards,
Ed White
>>> You will not find what you are looking for within the NA Parts >>> language. The information you seek is available on the "US [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >>>> >>>> Ed White Timothy J. Lee - 17 Feb 2009 02:16 GMT >However, the MATERIALS and the COMPONENTS used to ASSEMBLE the Camry and the >parts do NOT originate in the US or Canada, according the US Commerce >Department. http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/portal/site/nhtsa/template.MAXIMIZE/menuitem.e649cd1b2b 018c71d8eca01046108a0c/?javax.portlet.tpst=4427b997caacf504a8bdba101891ef9a_ws_M X&javax.portlet.prp_4427b997caacf504a8bdba101891ef9a_viewID=detail_view&itemID=5 39ed5c474a5a110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD&viewType=standard
Gives US/Canada origin parts content and location of assembly for 2005-2009 vehicles sold in the US (though 2009 is incomplete now).
According to the stuff there, the 2009 Camry (non-hybrid) has 75% US/Canada origin parts. For 2008 and 2007, the percentage was 70% and 75% respectively. Final assembly is listed as being both US/Canada and outside (which you can determine for each individual car by looking at the first character of the VIN).
 Signature ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
Jeff - 17 Feb 2009 23:45 GMT I didn't know that there was a site with the info.
Thanks for posting it.
Jeff
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