Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / March 2009
"CASH BACK" -- What Does This Mean In Auto Sales Talk? Does The Buyer Receive Actual Wallet-Ready Bills -- Or Is "Cash Back" Just Code For Cost Reduction?
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jesus'sbuttboy - 22 Mar 2009 21:45 GMT I can't believe that a dealer would give a buyer say, $4,000 in hard cash, AFTER the sales purchase agreement is signed and finalized.
Anyone ever gotten such a deal?
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/02/business/buyers-cash-in-on-offers-to-keep-car- sales-strong.html
gnu / linux - 22 Mar 2009 22:38 GMT > I can't believe that a dealer would give a buyer say, $4,000 in hard > cash, AFTER the sales purchase agreement is signed and finalized. > > Anyone ever gotten such a deal? > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/02/business/buyers-cash-in-on-offers-t... cash back = sales tool
Canuck57 - 22 Mar 2009 22:49 GMT >> I can't believe that a dealer would give a buyer say, $4,000 in hard >> cash, AFTER the sales purchase agreement is signed and finalized. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > cash back = sales tool ---- You are right, sort of like the amount they overcharge you. In this market, you should be able to get 20 to 25% off MSRP, well below invoice. Especially on GM & Chrysler because if they go under, the waranty isn't worth crap and there could be parts issues down the road.
Besides, the news is from 2003...a little old now.
Fat Moe - 22 Mar 2009 22:53 GMT > I can't believe that a dealer would give a buyer say, $4,000 in hard > cash, AFTER the sales purchase agreement is signed and finalized. > > Anyone ever gotten such a deal? > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/02/business/buyers-cash-in-on-offers-to-keep-car- sales-strong.html Article from October 2003 how things have changed.
MasterBlaster - 23 Mar 2009 09:15 GMT > I can't believe that a dealer would give a buyer say, $4,000 in hard > cash, AFTER the sales purchase agreement is signed and finalized. Sales gimmick. The car is way overpriced to compensate, and you still get to pay taxes, fees, and financing interest on the full "before" price.
Canuck57 - 23 Mar 2009 13:07 GMT >> I can't believe that a dealer would give a buyer say, $4,000 in hard >> cash, AFTER the sales purchase agreement is signed and finalized. > > Sales gimmick. The car is way overpriced to compensate, and you still > get to pay taxes, fees, and financing interest on the full "before" price. And now, in 2009 due to DC giving them money, you get a hidden payment or two when you go to work and pay taxes. And not only that, they want more.
I wonder if GM executives factored in the image damage of reneging on suppliers, bond holders and not paying their bills, topping it off with gouging the taxpayer?
Mike Hunter - 23 Mar 2009 19:46 GMT "Cash back," or a manufactures rebate, is a result of a mistake Chrysler made back in the late seventies. Chrysler in a effort to more inventory near the end of the model year, advertise that it was reducing the MSRP of some of their best selling lines by $1,000 on vehicle which at the time were selling under $10,000. It turned out to be a terrible move. I devalued every car they had sold prier to that time and lowered the value of late model used cars back as far as five years or more.
The are three prices when it comes to new vehicle, MSRP, Invoice and Net invoice. "Net Invoice" is the Invoice price after the holdback is taken back. Hold back is paid quarterly to dealerships.
Generally the hold back is 3% of the invoice. Lets say a decent dealership sell 500 vehicles a month. In three months he will have a credit on 1,500 vehicles of $X in hold back, $X in warranty reimbursement and OWE the manufacturer, and their credit arm, $X in dis-allowed warranty claims, special tolls and floor plan interest. The manufactures will send the dealership a check for the difference or a bill as the case may be.
The "Invoice" is the amount the dealership actually pays the manufacturer, when they sell the car. MSRP is self-explanatory and is generally 12% to 16% above the Invoice price Generally many dealerships, particularly import brands, offer their vehicles they sell for MORE than MSRP by adding dealer installed high profit options.
When dealer "negotiates" a selling price they "give away" the profit on the add-ons first and try to get MSRP. If a deal gets too tight they will give away some of the difference between the MSRP and the Invoice price or in extreme cases will give up down to the Invoice price IF one has a trade off from which they can get some of the giveaway back.
When the manufacturers offers a rebate they can more easily do so because the manufactures rebate given to the dealership by the customers can then be used to pay the Invoice, thus reducing his actual cost by the amount of the rebate. A buyer can choose to receive the rebate from the manufacturer but he will pay that much more to drive home the car and will be taxed on that higher amount. If they do they will pay higher interest on the greater amount of their load and depending on where one lives, and their situation with the AMT, they will end up paying income taxes on that amount as well
Let's say a vehicle has an MSRP of $25,000 and an Invoice price of say $21,000. The dealer makes a profit of any amount that is over 21K. The car you want has an Add-0n package of $2,500 a typical amount or a selling price of $27,500.
Let say they offer to sell you the car at $23,000 and you agree to apply $4,000 rebate to the sale. Your trade has an NADA wholesale value of $10,000. He says I will give you $7,000 which is $3,000 under wholesale. He shows you the invoice and says I must have $21,000 to pay for the new car and you are only giving me $19,000 in cash and trade. I think you will agree it if fair to make a $1,000 profit on a $27,500 car. You go home happy because you saved $10,000. The dealership makes a gross profit of $9,000. He then makes another $3,000, when he sell you car for $13,000. Unless he takes another trade on your car for less than wholesale, as well. Too cap it off, he will make another 1% to 2% off the finance charges you will pay over four years ;)
>I can't believe that a dealer would give a buyer say, $4,000 in hard > cash, AFTER the sales purchase agreement is signed and finalized. > > Anyone ever gotten such a deal? > > http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/02/business/buyers-cash-in-on-offers-to-keep-car- sales-strong.html Canuck57 - 23 Mar 2009 20:42 GMT > Let say they offer to sell you the car at $23,000 and you agree to apply > $4,000 rebate to the sale. Your trade has an NADA wholesale value of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > wholesale, as well. Too cap it off, he will make another 1% to 2% off the > finance charges you will pay over four years ;) And that is why the first thing you should ask the sales person is where is the invoice, then pay 10% or less than that. I haven't paid above or near invoice since 1989. With the kickbacks, MSRP and invoice are sucker plays.
Oh, they will hee and haw, but it is your money you save by preparing to walk.
SMS - 24 Mar 2009 22:48 GMT > And that is why the first thing you should ask the sales person is where is > the invoice, then pay 10% or less than that. I would not depend on the sales person to show you the actual invoice, this information is easily available on-line. If they are too eager to show you the invoice, either it's not the real invoice, or the dealer is receiving huge incentives from the factory making selling at invoice or slightly below a very profitable deal indeed.
10% under published invoice was a reasonable estimate of what to pay in normal times, but these days with very high factory to dealer and factory to buyer incentives, it may result in much too high of a price being paid. I.e., nowadays you routinely see dealer sales even on popular vehicles, "all at this price" (rather than "one at this price") where the price is way below 10% under invoice.
It's more important to find out the dealer cost than the invoice price, since they are very different. Take the invoice price, subtract the holdback and other manufacturer kickbacks, and subtract the factory to dealer incentives (which can be difficult to uncover since these are not normally made public).
Jeff - 24 Mar 2009 03:06 GMT In some states, the rebate is taxed, too. SO if you buy a $23,000 car with a rebate of $3,000, you pay tax on the $23,000, not $20,000. Michigan is one such state, IIRC.
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