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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / April 2004

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Mobil 1 or Valvoline Synthetic

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Buford T. Justice - 08 Apr 2004 03:09 GMT
I just bought a 1995 Ford Mustang GT with a 5.0L engine at 109,000
miles.  The recommended oil weight to use is 10w30.  Is Mobil 1 or
Valvoline Synthetic the best?  Synthetic is obviously better than
conventional.  For me, it's just a question of whether to use Mobil 1 or
Valvoline.

Thanks,
BTJustice
Backyard Mechanic - 08 Apr 2004 04:17 GMT
Buford T. Justice opined in news:c52c8i$2mgf2o$1@ID-208839.news.uni-
berlin.de:

> I just bought a 1995 Ford Mustang GT with a 5.0L engine at 109,000
> miles.  The recommended oil weight to use is 10w30.  Is Mobil 1 or
> Valvoline Synthetic the best?  Synthetic is obviously better than
> conventional.  For me, it's just a question of whether to use Mobil 1 or
> Valvoline.

If you plan to change it at under 4000 miles, it wont matter.

If you typically run the car for MORE than 20 minutes per start and over
highway a lot AND plan extended changes... Mobil 1
Richard and Gwen - 08 Apr 2004 04:27 GMT
Why do you think synthetic is "obviously" better?  Because it costs more?

> I just bought a 1995 Ford Mustang GT with a 5.0L engine at 109,000
> miles.  The recommended oil weight to use is 10w30.  Is Mobil 1 or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Thanks,
> BTJustice
Buford T. Justice - 08 Apr 2004 05:58 GMT
Because it is cleaner, proficient, flows more smoothly when hot, has a
higher heat point, flows in extreme cold, etc. just to name a few.

BTJustice

----- Original Message -----
 From: Richard and Gwen
 Sent: 4/7/2004 10:27 PM
> Why do you think synthetic is "obviously" better?  Because it costs more?
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>>Thanks,
>>BTJustice
c palmer - 08 Apr 2004 04:47 GMT
addressing your question between mobil 1 or valvoline synthetic.  bottom
line, it really won't make much difference.  each will have their own
little bit of additives, but the bulk of the oil is made up of ester
base.   mobile 1 has the longest track record.  

either should perform quite well to your satisfaction.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Buford T. Justice - 08 Apr 2004 06:16 GMT
http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/d.cgi/1102880/articles/api_comparative_motor_o
il_testing.htm


----- Original Message -----
 From: Buford T. Justice
 Sent: 4/7/2004 9:09 PM

> I just bought a 1995 Ford Mustang GT with a 5.0L engine at 109,000
> miles.  The recommended oil weight to use is 10w30.  Is Mobil 1 or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Thanks,
> BTJustice
Reece Talley - 08 Apr 2004 13:38 GMT
Hey, you left off a very important test...the sucker index.  Recent studies
have shown that those who use Scamsoil consistently rate the highest on this
index. They also tend to by things like the "Tornado" and the "vegematic"

Signature

R. J. Talley
Teacher/James Madison Fellow
NAR #69594
NRA #133073736


http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/d.cgi/1102880/articles/api_comparative_motor_o
il_testing.htm


> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Buford T. Justice
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> > Thanks,
> > BTJustice
Brian - 09 Apr 2004 03:27 GMT
I have had very good experience with Mobil 1 and every other mobil
synthetic lube i have ever used.  However i have never used Valvaline.  I
am sure it is quality, i meen it is a top name brand.  However from
ecperience may i suggest AMSOil?  I rate them equal to Mobil 1.
Robert A. Matern - 14 Apr 2004 00:45 GMT
How about a non-biased link?

http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/d.cgi/1102880/articles/api_comparative_motor_o
il_testing.htm


> ----- Original Message -----
>   From: Buford T. Justice
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> > Thanks,
> > BTJustice
Buford T. Justice - 15 Apr 2004 09:16 GMT
Supply one.

BTJustice

----- Original Message -----
 From: Robert A. Matern
 Sent: 4/13/2004 6:45 PM
> How about a non-biased link?
>
> http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/d.cgi/1102880/articles/api_comparative_motor_o
il_testing.htm
Robert A. Matern - 20 Apr 2004 21:18 GMT
You're the one making the argument...   YOU do it!

Otherwise, wise folks ignore posts like this as thinly veiled advertising...

> Supply one.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>   Sent: 4/13/2004 6:45 PM
> > How about a non-biased link?

http://www.synthetic-oil-tech.com/d.cgi/1102880/articles/api_comparative_motor_o
il_testing.htm

Buford T. Justice - 26 Apr 2004 17:48 GMT
You weirdo.  I see no tests like the one I linked to anywhere else.
Therefore, I asked you to provide one.  So provide one or shut up.

I choose Valvoline MaxLife Synthetic 10w30 anyway.

BTJustice

----- Original Message -----
 From: Robert A. Matern
 Sent: 4/20/2004 3:18 PM

> You're the one making the argument...   YOU do it!
>
> Otherwise, wise folks ignore posts like this as thinly veiled advertising...
Robert A. Matern - 28 Apr 2004 23:21 GMT
So Rude...  I'm thinking you're a troll now...

I had no trouble finding links with a Google search...   though I must
admit, most are from some manufacturer or other!  Pretty hard to find
unbiased testing of any kind...   here's one that looked good:

http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/oil-life.html   AMSoil Test in
Progress
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html   Mobil 1 18,000 mile
test

I just don't want one of those "reclassified" oils that isn't actually a
true synthetic at all, qualifying for the name only because the definition
was changed.  Which makes me wonder if Valvoline is one of those...?

> You weirdo.  I see no tests like the one I linked to anywhere else.
> Therefore, I asked you to provide one.  So provide one or shut up.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> >
> > Otherwise, wise folks ignore posts like this as thinly veiled advertising...
c palmer - 29 Apr 2004 06:50 GMT
hi robert - i gave up on trying to say something useful on this subject
after my last post, because most people are going to say that the person
who is saying something about it - one way or the other is biased.  

i figure that anybody who does the lawn mower test with their own unit
will definitely see a different between synthetic and mineral base -
regardless of brand.

i will shed some light on mobil one since there doesn't seem to be
giving credit where credit should be due.

first, mobil one was developed back in the early 60's and was discovered
by accident.  they brought in to the lab where they use to do a 392 hour
dynamic engine oil test.  the purpose of this test is to run the engine
for 392 hours solid, then the oil drained, and sent to the lab for
analysis.  the synthetic oil sat there behind the door for a couple of
years and when the lab boys ran out of oil to test, they ask about this
stuff that had been sitting there.  there was a assigned number on the
box.  well, they put the oil in and did the test.  when they went to
drain the oil out, it still looked as clean as when they put it in, so
they poured it back into the engine and ran the test again.  after the
second time, they did drain it and sent it to the lab with a note of
wanting to know what kind of oil it was.  and that's how it came to be.

there were a lot of problems with ester based oils.  the amount of type
of additives to put it to make it compatible with mineral oil based
oils.   people don't realize what all is put into engine oil.  for
example - seal sweller.  that's right.  it has to be a certain amount to
cause the seal to swell at the same given rate the parts are shrinking
from wear.  if you didn't, you was leak more and more oil as the engine
got more wear on it.  and that is just one of many.  anti foam agents is
another, sure don't want to pump oil around in an engine with air
bubbles in it.  after they achieved the final balance it hit the market.

people were highly skeptical of an oil that was advertised that it could
go 25,000 miles without changing.  and it was 5 dollars a quart back
then.  could change a lot of mineral based oil for 5 dollars a quart.  

and then everyone people wrote in about what they put the oil through.
one person owned an airline company and they would send off their oil
samples of their engines to find out when the oil was so contaminated
that it needed to be changed and also based on the metal makeup what
kind of engine trouble to expect.  so, they started to send in the
synthetic oil into the lab.  the only thing they changed with the oil
filters.  it was over 100k miles on the oil before the lab said change
it and with no sign of engine part failure.  the lab company was
independent and had no way of knowing what  this particular product was.

another person did basically the same thing and at the 100,000 mark, and
when they mike the parts, they were still within original factory specs.

in the late 1960's.  the daytona 500 made news.  because of the track
temp being around 180 to 200 degrees and the big block race engine was
stuck next to the heat of the exhaust of the car in front of it - that
after the race, when they drop the oil plug, no oil would come out.
they would drop the pan - take a pocket knife and literally cut the oil
out of the pan, rolled into a ball and could bounce it on the floor.
total oil breakdown.  the ones that had ran mobile one, not only did the
oil run out of the pan, but when they tore the engine down, they found
that it still have the cross hatch pattern in the cylinder walls.  these
stories were carried by popular science and popular mechanics at the
time.

look how long it took for the other brands to finally come out with
their own synthetics and of course, the name of the game is to knock
down the leader.  in this case - mobile one.  

but they are all the same base makeup, just as all the oil companies use
mineral based oil for their regular oil.

so, which one is best?  i'm not going to side up with one of the other.

but, i will tell you this much.  synthetic oil is not suited for extreme
high pressure, extreme demand applications, such as use in mining
operations.  when you have a 7,000 dollar pump the galls up because of
the type of oil being used, it gets expensive fast.  mineral based oil
clearly is the better choice.

but, for light pressure, high temps, hostile environment applications,
such as in autos and trucks, they appear to be the best choice, but it
depends again and the person's driving habits as to whether or not it
would be in their best interest to use them.

i hope this will shed some light on the subject.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer that of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Buford T. Justice - 08 Apr 2004 16:14 GMT
I just got off the phone with Valvoline (1-800-TEAM-VAL).  Valvoline
Synthetic is PAO based and Group III & IV.  I guess I will use Valvoline
since I have always used hteir products and all can be found at both
Wal-Mart & AutoZone.

BTJustice

----- Original Message -----
 From: Buford T. Justice
 Sent: 4/7/2004 9:09 PM

> I just bought a 1995 Ford Mustang GT with a 5.0L engine at 109,000
> miles.  The recommended oil weight to use is 10w30.  Is Mobil 1 or
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Thanks,
> BTJustice
Buford T. Justice - 08 Apr 2004 16:15 GMT
They also say it is good for 7500 miles, but I will change mine every
5000 miles.

BTJustice

----- Original Message -----
 From: Buford T. Justice
 Sent: 4/8/2004 10:14 AM

> I just got off the phone with Valvoline (1-800-TEAM-VAL).  Valvoline
> Synthetic is PAO based and Group III & IV.  I guess I will use Valvoline
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>> Thanks,
>> BTJustice
F.H. - 08 Apr 2004 19:48 GMT
> They also say it is good for 7500 miles, but I will change mine every
> 5000 miles.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> > since I have always used hteir products and all can be found at both
> > Wal-Mart & AutoZone.

No one addressed the "109,000 miles" factor.  Seems to recall some posts
about flushing or the Synthetic acting to loosen deposits and having a
negative result.

Frank
Brian - 09 Apr 2004 03:36 GMT
in responce to 'F.H." <disc" yes synthetics do have very high abilities to
clean and can negativly effect a high milage engine.  You may also notice
that most manufaturers recommend using conventioal oil untill the break in
point then switching to synthetic for the rest of the engine life.  This
is usually 3000-5000 for a gas burner and 15,000 - 25,000 for a diesel.  I
believe they even state that the use of synthetic may effect the correct
break in of an an engine when new because it lubs to well.
c palmer - 10 Apr 2004 12:13 GMT

No one addressed the "109,000 miles" factor. Seems to recall some posts
about flushing or the Synthetic acting to loosen deposits and having a
negative result.
Frank  
------------------------------

i will address this part.  i've not had any trouble on engines that were
low miles (under 30,000)  but i did convert a 5.0 at 55,000 miles to
synthetic oil.  it was my dad's car and he changes oil when the moon
turns blue.  he bought the car new and it had a few oil changes.  i say
few, because he changed the break in oil around the 8,000 mile mark.  

anyway, on with the story,  all went well with the engine until the
115,000 mile mark.  came up to a stop light, the oil light started to
flicker.  10 miles later the oil light was bright red, but no engine
knocking.  finally ended up taking the oil pan off of it only to find
the sludge that had built up in the first 50,000 miles had dried out and
formed hard crystals.  looked some something like large coffee grinds
and rock hard.  stopped up the sump.  cleaned it all up and everything
was fine for 4,000 more miles, when the same thing happened.  drop pan,
same thing.  concluded that the synthetic oil draws the oil out of the
sludge leaving the carbon crystals.  so, my recommendation, if you have
a sludged up engine, keep mineral based oil in it and enjoy the engine,
unless you want engine troubles down the road later.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
BeeVee - 10 Apr 2004 15:34 GMT
Hi Palmer, You are the first person that really know what going on with this
synthetic
buloney. I have seen these deposits due to the break in oil being mineral.
The zeolites also make these clusters and usually they attack the # 1 main
journal. Usually clogging the passage and galling the first and second cyl.
rod bearings. I've seen as many as 30 engines a year back in the 80's.
1 sure cure was to change that oil filter ever 3k . A fresh filter will
catch most of the damaging particles before the filter is so full it
bypass's full time.

BeeVee

> No one addressed the "109,000 miles" factor. Seems to recall some posts
> about flushing or the Synthetic acting to loosen deposits and having a
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
putt@webtv.net - 08 Apr 2004 16:19 GMT
>it's just a question of whether to use
>Mobil 1 or Valvoline.

I've used M1 for many/many years in both my truck and car.  I use a Wix
oil filter and change it at 3K intervals and change the oil at the 4th
filter change.  (recycle the old filters and oil)  I expect V is ok too,
but when I started using syn, it was the only choice available that I
could afford.

Dave S(Texas)
kdxleafblower - 15 Apr 2004 15:39 GMT
I have used Mobil 1 in my 2000 Honda Civic since the first break in oil change.
I change it every 7,000 miles. Use a Mobil 1 filter or K&N filter too. I plan
on having this car beyond the 200K mark. It is an expensive old change, but
I feel confident after 80K miles, it is the oil for me. I drive over 32K a year.
Craig
Robert A. Matern - 20 Apr 2004 21:19 GMT
I ran an 88 Bronco II to over 207K using Mobil 1...   it died because the
frame, brake calipers, power steering, and other critical components rusted
beyond repair.  The engine still ran great!

> I have used Mobil 1 in my 2000 Honda Civic since the first break in oil change.
> I change it every 7,000 miles. Use a Mobil 1 filter or K&N filter too. I plan
> on having this car beyond the 200K mark. It is an expensive old change, but
> I feel confident after 80K miles, it is the oil for me. I drive over 32K a year.
> Craig
Richard and Gwen - 21 Apr 2004 01:53 GMT
So, you basically wasted the extra money spent on the synthetic oil.

> I ran an 88 Bronco II to over 207K using Mobil 1...   it died because the
> frame, brake calipers, power steering, and other critical components rusted
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> year.
> > Craig
Stan Kasperski - 21 Apr 2004 15:07 GMT
Great observation!  Using a very expensive, superior lubricant instead
of an adequate but much less expensive alternative has zero benefit if
the engine outlasts the basic vehicle by 3x4 times. Using modern $.84/qt
oil will allow most modern engines to exceed the quarter million mile
point with ease and leave extra cash for the important things in life.
300,000 miles divided by 5000 mile change interval is 60 oil changes. 60
changes times 5 quarts is 300 quarts. $4 vs $.84 is $3.16 times 300 is
~$1000 to be spent on whatever pleases. No one blows an engine (due to
lack of lubrication) while using API certified oil that has been changed
regularly and kept up to level.
Stan K.

> So, you basically wasted the extra money spent on the synthetic oil.
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>>
>>>Craig
Robert A. Matern - 21 Apr 2004 21:56 GMT
No other engine of mine has ever gone over 150K, except for the 69 VW Bug I
had long ago...   it was over 300K when I sold it, still running great.

Even with that, I'd agree - except for the hard use that Bronco II saw over
its life.   Offroad use in the north maine woods, use by a deputy fire chief
for 8 years, and much towing.   I don't believe it would have gotten near
200K without an extra tough lubricant.  What I really need is something to
make the rest of the truck last as well!

> Great observation!  Using a very expensive, superior lubricant instead
> of an adequate but much less expensive alternative has zero benefit if
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> >>
> >>>Craig
c palmer - 22 Apr 2004 01:07 GMT
No one blows an engine (due to lack of lubrication) while using API
certified oil that has been changed regularly and kept up to level.
-------------------

i will address stan's comments.  

i have studied oils since 1961, and have taught  lubrication at
automotive and industrial businesses.  the catch phrase is changing oil
regularly.   there are so many variables in this dept.  

for example - on mineral based oil, the API classification is based on
the temp. of 180 degrees in order to come up with it's standards.  but
the society of automotive engineering states that for every 20 degree
rise in the base line, will cut the life of the oil by 50%.  so, if one
was to put this oil in the family station wagon,  pack it full of kids,
and people plus luggage, add a heavy trailer to drag down the road,
turn on the a/c, and head for the mountains on a hot summer day.  what
is the life of the oil?   could be over in less than 2,000 miles.  now,
if someone was into abusing the engine, then many of the properties of
the oil have changed and may not offer the protection as fresh oil.  

i could go into synthetic oils, but let me say this since it is coming
upon the growing season.  take your old trusty lawn mower out, chank it
up and made some passes and push the mower to the choking point, but
don't let it die.  notice where this point is.  then, if you want.
change the oil with fresh mineral based oil and do the same thing.
after you are satisfied where that choke point is, then put in synthetic
oil in.  (doesn't make any difference in brands) and go cut the same
lawn and notice where the choke point is.  remember, you haven't done
anything to the mower, just change oil.  and if you see any improvement
on a 3 1/2 hp engine, think what you would see if you have a 150hp
engine.   then write back to the newsgroup and tell what you found out.
and tell how slow the synthetic oil gets dark.  then you decide whether
or not it's worth the difference.  

it's not me telling.  people say put up or shut up.  well, there's the
challenge and it's your mower, your lawn so how can it be fixed?  

you will notice a difference, but you will be surprised of how much.

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Reece Talley - 22 Apr 2004 01:56 GMT
I use synthetics because I don't want to worry about oil breakdown..ever. I
change oil and filter at 5000 miles. My driving is 99% freeway done in 45
minute stints. I could change at 3500 miles and would if I had the time.
However, I don't and I need to be able to run a bit longer between changes.
My experience has been that synthetics work better in extremes of heat and
cold, seem to have greater detergent qualities and never turn black between
changes.

Signature

R. J. Talley
Teacher/James Madison Fellow
NAR #69594
NRA #133073736

>
> No one blows an engine (due to lack of lubrication) while using API
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Stan Kasperski - 22 Apr 2004 17:42 GMT
I think lawn mowers really last a long time, even with severe duty. I
replace the cheap oil in my mowers every 4-5 years or so, if I remember.
The oldest is a Sears lawn tractor with a Briggs and Stratton 10 HP. I
bought it used in 1976 and it still is in use in Texas where we mow
frequently, especially during the very hot summers.
I think that users of synthetic oil vs mineral oil are basically so risk
averse that they "feel" that anything is better than the dreaded engine
failure. They probably are the same people who make the selling of
extended warranties so profitable.
API certified oils are more than good enough for 99% of us. Save your
hard earned cash!
Stan K.

> No one blows an engine (due to lack of lubrication) while using API
> certified oil that has been changed regularly and kept up to level.
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional
Stan Kasperski - 22 Apr 2004 18:16 GMT
My '86 Lincoln Mark VII has 188k miles( many miles of towing) and 18
years with cheap oil, and my '92 Mercury Grand Marquis has 203K miles
with cheap oil and rarely needs additional oil between changes. I have
no doubt both engines will far outlast the usefulness of the
interior/exterior and other running gear of the vehicles. As long as oil
changes are done regularly (~5000 miles) and the oil level is kept up,
engines will outlast the rest of the car every time. Main cause for
engine lubrication failure is low/no oil or extending intervals so long
that some tiny oil passages get clogged. People don't check.
Stan K.

> No other engine of mine has ever gone over 150K, except for the 69 VW Bug I
> had long ago...   it was over 300K when I sold it, still running great.
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>>>>
>>>>>Craig
 
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