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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / November 2004K&N air filters, are they any good ?
Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick it up tomorrow $47 plus tax. I.m not interested in more HP but the more air flow interests me with better combustion. Your input appreciated. Thanks in advance Denny B Hope you don't tell Ford. They'll void your warranty. K&N's don't filter very well. CJB > Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. > In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks in advance > Denny B You know not what you are talking about. Your warranty cannot be voided by using a K&N filter. > Hope you don't tell Ford. They'll void your warranty. K&N's don't filter > very well. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks in advance > > Denny B Um... Read your owner's manual (if you have a late model) CJB > You know not what you are talking about. > Your warranty cannot be voided by using a K&N filter. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> > Thanks in advance >> > Denny B I repeat ..... You know not what you are talking about. Your warranty cannot be voided by using a K&N filter. > Um... Read your owner's manual (if you have a late model) > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >> > Thanks in advance > >> > Denny B Ever use google? CJB >I repeat ..... > You know not what you are talking about. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> >> > Thanks in advance >> >> > Denny B He does know what he's talking about. All filters used on your vehicle under warranty must meet or exceed the original equipment parts. K&N air filters do not meet OEM specifications. Brian > I repeat ..... > You know not what you are talking about. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > >> > Thanks in advance > > >> > Denny B Gracias, Diablo CJB > He does know what he's talking about. All filters used on your vehicle > under [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >> > >> > Thanks in advance >> > >> > Denny B > Gracias, Diablo > > CJB I don't know either way to be honest (I drive a Taurus, why the hell would I put a performance air filter on it?). According to the website though ( http://www.knfilters.com/ ) it says: a.. Replacement Air Filters for most cars, trucks, motorcycles, ATV's, and more! a.. Designed to increase horsepower and acceleration a.. Washable and reusable a.. Will NOT void US vehicle warranty a.. Emission legal in all 50 US States a.. 10 year / million mile limited warranty Like I said, I don't know either way, but it seems to me that if they state that on their website, and it turns out that they do void the warranty, K&N would be on the hook for any warranty work? > > Gracias, Diablo > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > that on their website, and it turns out that they do void the warranty, K&N > would be on the hook for any warranty work? What would Clint Eastwood say about that? Do ya fell lucky fella? Well do ya? I sure wouldn't want to try and get K&N to pay a repair bill, they could afford to drag it out a lot longer than the average Joe. Brian Ford Motor Company released a statement at one point that did everything but name K&N. The gist of it was that while the law didn't allow them to specify a particular brand of filter be used, it does allow them to create a minimum standard that the filter must meet. Same is true for oil, even though there are companies like Am Soil who try to confuse the issue. A manufacturer cannot say you must use a specific brand of oil, but they sure can say that motor oil must meet a particular viscosity and sae standard. Otherwise you could pretty much put molasses in your engine and the manufacturer would have no recourse. >> Gracias, Diablo >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > state that on their website, and it turns out that they do void the > warranty, K&N would be on the hook for any warranty work? I would like too see this statement. Why don't you post it? > Ford Motor Company released a statement at one point that did everything but > name K&N. The gist of it was that while the law didn't allow them to [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > state that on their website, and it turns out that they do void the > > warranty, K&N would be on the hook for any warranty work? How exactly does using a K&N filter not meet or exceed the OEM specs? If the filter does trap more dirt and debris and let in more air, I fail to understand how it would not meet the requirements, if not in fact exceed the requirements. That is like saying that using a synthetic oil would void the warranty because it exceeds the specs for dino juice. >>Gracias, Diablo >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > that on their website, and it turns out that they do void the warranty, K&N > would be on the hook for any warranty work? > How exactly does using a K&N filter not meet or exceed the OEM specs? > If the filter does trap more dirt and debris and let in more air, I fail > to understand how it would not meet the requirements, if not in fact > exceed the requirements. And where are you getting the idea that the K&N traps more dirt? Ed > That is like saying that using a synthetic oil would void the warranty > because it exceeds the specs for dino juice. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > that on their website, and it turns out that they do void the warranty, K&N > > would be on the hook for any warranty work? Why are you so adamant about K&N filters? If you don't like them, don't use them. You seem a bit too fervent. > > How exactly does using a K&N filter not meet or exceed the OEM specs? > > If the filter does trap more dirt and debris and let in more air, I fail [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > > that on their website, and it turns out that they do void the warranty, K&N > > > would be on the hook for any warranty work? Oh I don't know about that. It's on topic and a good discussion. I just want to see some real hard evidence but no one is offering more than personal opinions )which is what I am doing actually). A poster mentioned Crown Vics as example. Perhaps the driver is a knuckle dragging unmechnaical minded troglodyte that can't process reasonable instructions no matter how clearly written. Some folks shouldn't be allowed to pump there own gas.  Signature_________________________________ http://austinmini.ositech.net Looking for cheap Austin Mini, Wagon, Clubman, Mokes and other variants for sale in the USA. > Why are you so adamant about K&N filters? > If you don't like them, don't use them. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > warranty, K&N >> > > would be on the hook for any warranty work? > Why are you so adamant about K&N filters? > If you don't like them, don't use them. > You seem a bit too fervent. I consider the K&N advertising to be misleading. The ads are just barely on the good side of Slick 50 and Splitfire Spark Plugs ads. I am just expressing my opinion. Take it for what it is. I think my opinion is well reasoned. You may not. But at least you heard a different opinion that the K&N advertising copy. Ed > > > How exactly does using a K&N filter not meet or exceed the OEM specs? > > > If the filter does trap more dirt and debris and let in more air, I fail [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > warranty, K&N > > > > would be on the hook for any warranty work? >He does know what he's talking about. All filters used on your vehicle under >warranty must meet or exceed the original equipment parts. K&N air filters >do not meet OEM specifications. > >Brian The performance cones do not. The "direct replacement" elements DO. At least the last one I bought did - and with a miniumum of service was still doing the job after over 240,000KM when I sold the van. >> I repeat ..... >> You know not what you are talking about. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> > >> > Thanks in advance >> > >> > Denny B > >He does know what he's talking about. All filters used on your vehicle under > >warranty must meet or exceed the original equipment parts. K&N air filters [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The performance cones do not. The "direct replacement" elements DO. Can you quote anything that confirms this? Ed > At least the last one I bought did - and with a miniumum of service > was still doing the job after over 240,000KM when I sold the van. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >> > >> > Thanks in advance > >> > >> > Denny B >Um... Read your owner's manual (if you have a late model) > >CJB Doesn't mention anything in either my owners manual or factory service manual. >> You know not what you are talking about. >> Your warranty cannot be voided by using a K&N filter. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >>> > Thanks in advance >>> > Denny B > >Um... Read your owner's manual (if you have a late model) > > > >CJB > > Doesn't mention anything in either my owners manual or factory service > manual. Look in the warranty guide. It will have a statement sort of like the following: "Ford Motor Company recommends that you use genuine Ford replacement parts. However, when you are having non-warranty work done on your vehicle, you may choose to use non-Ford parts. If you decide to use non-Ford parts, be sure they are equivalent to Ford parts in performance, quality, and durability." Naturally K&N "claims" that their filters are equivalent (or better) and that they will therefore not void your warranty. However, if you show up at a Ford dealer with an engine showing internal wear that appears to be related to dirt ingestion, or a MAF sensor coated with oil, chances are Ford will tell you the K&N was at fault and void your warranty on parts related to the air filter (obviously, they can void the warranty on parts unrelated to the intake system because you installed a K&N). You can then go to K&N, and if you somehow manage to jump through all their hoops (read their warranty requirements - what a joke), they will still most likely deny your claim because they'll claim their filter is not at fault, or that you didn't oil it right, or blah, blah, blah. In my opinion only a fool would trust an engine to a K&N filter for everyday use. The benefits are almost non-existent, the risks are real. If you are drag racing at a track, then maybe I could see it - but never for everyday driving. Ed >> >Um... Read your owner's manual (if you have a late model) >> > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >Ed Ever read the ScamsOil warranty? It's similarly impossible to get coverage under, which no doubt it why they can claim no one ever has. -- Elbridge Gerry, of Massachusetts: "What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . . Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House of Representatives, August 17, 1789 The owners manual states that using a part that does not meet minimum Ford standards ( which are industry standards ) and causes damage the warranty MAY be voided. It has to be proven that the part caused the damage. A dealership technician is not qualified to make that determination. No body that works with in the dealership walls are qualified. > Um... Read your owner's manual (if you have a late model) > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >> > Thanks in advance > >> > Denny B > The owners manual states that using a part that does not meet minimum Ford > standards ( which are industry standards ) and causes damage the warranty MAY be > voided. It has to be proven that the part caused the damage. A dealership > technician is not qualified to make that determination. No body that works with > in the dealership walls are qualified. So you show up at the dealership with a car that either shosw excessive wear related to dirt ingestion, or a contaminated MAF sensor. The tech says it looks like the K&N is the cause. So, they void the warranty. What do you do? If you decide to fight them in court, who will you use for your expert witness to counteract whoever Ford or the dealership sends? Ed > > The owners manual states that using a part that does not meet minimum Ford > > standards ( which are industry standards ) and causes damage the warranty MAY be [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ed I worked at dealerships most of my working life. Never has there ever been even a question on after market parts. I've seen plenty. K&N filters, fancy multi colored plug wires, super high voltage coils, exhaust headers with after market cat-back exhausts. You name it I have most likely seen it and had to deal with it. I have never seen a engine that had wear as a result of using an air filter. If you look back at history, some of the best filters were oil bath filters. They are messy, but do a superb job of cleaning the air is a dirty environment. The K&N is only a modern derivate of that old oil bath filter. It works extremely well for removing very fine particles from the air. You will not find a wear problem with these filters, you may find a performance problem, usually due to plugging not to "contamination" to the MAF. Have you ever noticed that in the intake air system you see deposits of sludge and carbon? Many time a oily film? ( this is on a vehicle NOT using a K&N filter system ). It is normal. I'll let you think about it as to why it is normal. If you want to discuss it, that is fine. At that point, "contamination" of the MAF sensor is normal. Thanks Thomas, for finally offering a hands-on experience with this discussion. Signature_________________________________ http://austinmini.ositech.net Looking for cheap Austin Mini, Wagon, Clubman, Mokes and other variants for sale in the USA. >> > The owners manual states that using a part that does not meet minimum >> > Ford [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > the MAF > sensor is normal. > I worked at dealerships most of my working life. Never has there ever been even > a question on after market parts. I've seen plenty. K&N filters, fancy multi > colored plug wires, super high voltage coils, exhaust headers with after market > cat-back exhausts. You name it I have most likely seen it and had to deal with > it. I have never seen a engine that had wear as a result of using an air filter. I unfortunately have, but it was a farm tractor, not a street car. One of the reason I think people don't have problems with K&N filters is the fact that dirt is not a really big problem for cars driven on paved streets. I had a friend who had a Lotus 7 that didn't have air filters at all. It just had wire mess over the intake trumpets of the weber carb on his engine. The engine was still running strong at around 50,000 miles when he sold it. I tend to change my air filters at a shorter interval than recommended by the manufacturers. on my street cars, I rarely see much in the way of contamination. On the other had, the filter from the truck we use when harvesting peanuts will be choked with dust after just one season. If I could afford to ruin the truck, it might be interesting to try out the K&N on it. > If you look back at history, some of the best filters were oil bath filters. > They are messy, but do a superb job of cleaning the air is a dirty environment. I certainly disagree with this statement. I have had to deal with oil bath oil filters on older farm tractors. They were horrid inefficient devices. It was routine to have to rebuild tractor engines in the old days, but not any more. No modern tractor uses an oil bath air filter. Everything today uses high efficiency paper filters. Oil bath filters went away for good reasons. > The K&N is only a modern derivate of that old oil bath filter. It works > extremely well for removing very fine particles from the air. You will not find > a wear problem with these filters, you may find a performance problem, usually > due to plugging not to "contamination" to the MAF. Again I disagree. At least with an oil bath filter, you had a reservoir of oil that would constantly re-wet the filter media. With a K&N, you have to do it yourself. Oil bath filters trap much of the dirt in the oil reservoir where it is removed from the air stream. K&N doesn't have a reservoir, so all of the dirt remains in the air stream, where it can eventually come dislodged. > Have you ever noticed that in the intake air system you see deposits of sludge > and carbon? Many time a oily film? ( this is on a vehicle NOT using a K&N filter > system ). It is normal. I'll let you think about it as to why it is normal. If > you want to discuss it, that is fine. At that point, "contamination" of the MAF > sensor is normal. I definitely see oily films in intake tracts - but not usually on the MAF wires. Most of the oily mess I see is on the engine side of the throttle plate and is introduced into the system via the PCV return. I don't doubt that there can be some contamination of MAF wires even for vehicles without K&N filters, I just believe the chances of contaminating the MAF wires are greatly increased by the use (or misuse) of a K&N Filter. K&N used to include formulas on their web page for calculating the proper size K&N filter for a particular application (this was removed in 2002 or so). They were thoughtful enough to include the filter factor for paper filters as well. I ran through the calculations using their formulas and their filter factor for a good paper filter and discovered that the paper filter on my departed Mustang was already three times as large as K&N's formula claimed was necessary. Of course a K&N filter of the same size as the paper filter would have been 3.5 times as big as it needed to be, but I doubt the difference would have been detectable. Ed >> I worked at dealerships most of my working life. Never has there ever been even >> a question on after market parts. I've seen plenty. K&N filters, fancy multi [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >today uses high efficiency paper filters. Oil bath filters >went away for good reasons. What other things have changed in farm tractors in the intervening years??? Just about everything. In central Africa, where it is dusty at least 9 months of the year, oil bath filters were installed as a solution to the dust problem. If serviced regularly they ARE a very efficient filter. But they MUST be serviced. On your peanut truck you need a cyclonic pre-cleaner - Evans is/was one common manufacturer IIRC. Donaldson was another. This spins the heavy crap out of the airstream before hitting the filter. Almost all Combines and lots of other farm equipment uses them I worked for a White/Cockshutt farm equipment dealer as well as for a Fiat Allis industrial equipment dealer over the years and the big reason oil bath filters were replaced with paper element/cyclonic combinations was ease of servicing. Next was manufacturing cost. The oil bath filter put the cost burden on the manufacturer, the dry filter puts the cost burden (replacement) on the consumer. >> The K&N is only a modern derivate of that old oil bath filter. It works >> extremely well for removing very fine particles from the air. You will not find >> a wear problem with these filters, you may find a performance problem, usually >> due to plugging not to "contamination" to the MAF. And the K&N holds a lot more dirt before it plugs than a paper filter >Again I disagree. At least with an oil bath filter, you had >a reservoir of oil that would constantly re-wet the filter [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> you want to discuss it, that is fine. At that point, "contamination" of the MAF >> sensor is normal. The sorce of the contamination of the MAF sensor is crankcase vapours from the PCV system - not the intake air filter efficiency or lack thereof. >I definitely see oily films in intake tracts - but not >usually on the MAF wires. Most of the oily mess I see is on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >MAF wires are greatly increased by the use (or misuse) of a >K&N Filter. In years of experience the type of air filter does not appear to have much if any influence on the "coking" of the MAF sensor. GM, Ford, or Toyota. >K&N used to include formulas on their web page for >calculating the proper size K&N filter for a particular [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Ed > > I worked at dealerships most of my working life. Never has there ever been even > > a question on after market parts. I've seen plenty. K&N filters, fancy multi [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > problems with K&N filters is the fact that dirt is not a > really big problem for cars driven on paved streets. Dirt is a very big problem. You can easily tell the approximate location where one operates a vehicle just by the amount of dirt in the filter box. Paved or no paved street. Live near farm country? I have many times. Just the amount of dirt and sand laying on the intake is a clue as to the amount of dirt in the air. > I had a > friend who had a Lotus 7 that didn't have air filters at [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > horrid inefficient devices. It was routine to have to > rebuild tractor engines in the old days, but not any more. Old technology, using poor oils in a really dirty environment. Not even car engines lasted a long time. Real bad example. > No modern tractor uses an oil bath air filter. Everything > today uses high efficiency paper filters. Oil bath filters > went away for good reasons. It's cheaper to use a paper filter, very simple. Also the average customer of heavy machinery want to reduce down time for anything including PM. The manufactures are very happy to oblige, it makes sales. If I make a machine that reduces maintenance by 30% over previous models and market it as such you can bet you will get a second look by a customer. If a manufacture does not do this, that manufacturer is no longer competitive. > > The K&N is only a modern derivate of that old oil bath filter. It works > > extremely well for removing very fine particles from the air. You will not find [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > reservoir, so all of the dirt remains in the air stream, > where it can eventually come dislodged. The particulates stay on the paper because of the oil. Want to find a A/C leak? Find the dirty joint, same principle. > > Have you ever noticed that in the intake air system you see deposits of sludge > > and carbon? Many time a oily film? ( this is on a vehicle NOT using a K&N filter [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > MAF wires are greatly increased by the use (or misuse) of a > K&N Filter. There is better than a chance, it does happen. That oil mist from the PCV can and does make it's way to the filter, which is in front of the MAF sensor. Ford even issued a TSB on the subject some years back. > K&N used to include formulas on their web page for > calculating the proper size K&N filter for a particular [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Ed I never claimed any performance increase with using a K&N filter, only that it does a very good job of cleaning the air and that it will not cause problems. I did alluded to the fact that you have to maintain it or engine performance will suffer. So your experience is on a tractor? This is an auto group, meant for discussions about autos. Take your hatred for K&N to a tractor group somewhere. > > I worked at dealerships most of my working life. Never has there ever been even > > a question on after market parts. I've seen plenty. K&N filters, fancy multi [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > Ed > So your experience is on a tractor? This is an auto group, meant > for discussions about autos. Take your hatred for K&N to a > tractor group somewhere. Engines are engines. And air filters are far more critical for tractor than cars - both becasue the environement is worse and becasue tractors spend a significant period of time near maximum power settings. I don't actually "hate" K&N filters but I am offended by many of the claims. I just think K&N Filters are over-hyped and belong in a class of "performance enhancers" just above supposed performance enhancers like split fire spark plugs, fuel line magnets, tornado air swirlers, etc. I can believe that for a highly modified engine K&N Filters might make some difference at the peak of engine performance compared to the OEM paper filter (that was sized for a completely different situation). I just don't believe they are beneficial for street vehicles with basically stock engines. For all the vehicles I am aware of, the stock air filters are sized to provide more than adequate flow without significant restriction. Even K&N doesn't claim they filter better than paper filters or even that they filter as well. The K&N ads spend a lot of time talking about improved air flow and some time talking about how well they filter without really making a firm comparison. The ads play a sort of shell game. Clean K&N filters flow better than dirty paper filters and dirty K&N filters filter as well as clean paper filters, but what does this mean? I don't know. I do know that paper filters do a very good job of removing dirt. I also know that for a stock engine, in normal use there is virtually nothing to be gained from the installation of a K&N air filter. So why would I take the risk of installing a K&N air filter? Most of the flow tests where K&N Filters are compared to paper filters show that a K&N will flow more air at some particular pressure drop. This seems a backwards test that is designed to "prove" that the K&N filter media is more porous. I conceede this. This sort of test doesn't reflect the pressure drop at the actual flow rate required. The proper test would be to measure the pressure drop at the flow rate required. In most cases paper filters are sized so that the pressure drop in actual use is trivial. In order to minimize the pressure drop across an air filter, you can simply increase the size of the filter (i.e., you could achieve the same flow rate as a K&N filter of a given size by going to a larger paper filter). I have never found a truly definitive test of air filters. There are lots of tests and opinions avialable on the internet. Here are a few: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm http://brickboard.com/AWD/?id=838591 http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2000/01/airfilters/index.shtml http://www.mahle.com/home.nsf/out/2.2.1.1?OpenDocument&,8695641 http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/amsoil_vs_k&n.htm http://www.baldwinfilter.com/products/air.html http://www.freeautoadvice.com/board/ubbhtml/Forum8/HTML/006309.html I espeically liked this test (bassically a K&N Advertisement): http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0409_kn/index1.html A 14" diamter by 4" high K&N filter with a special open top filter, and a flow smoother stack produced only 6% more horsepower at 6000 rpm that a 9" diameter by 2" tall paper filter with a closed top and no stack. If you can only get a 6% improve at 6000 rpm and WOT with such a highly slanted test, what improvement do you think you will get with filters of the same size. The K&N filter had approximately 280 square inches of filter area compared to around 57 square inches of filter area for the paper filter. Even with almost five times as much filter area, the K&N only provide 6% more power. If they had been running a fair test, they would have compared the K&N to properly sized paper filter. Ed > > > I worked at dealerships most of my working life. Never has there ever > been even [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > > > > Ed >> > The owners manual states that using a part that does not meet minimum Ford >> > standards ( which are industry standards ) and causes damage the warranty [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >you want to discuss it, that is fine. At that point, "contamination" of the MAF >sensor is normal. The automakers consider the oil fouling of MAFs due to K&N type filters to have become a significant enough problem to issue TSBs about it. -- Elbridge Gerry, of Massachusetts: "What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . . Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House of Representatives, August 17, 1789 >Hope you don't tell Ford. They'll void your warranty. K&N's don't filter >very well. > >CJB That is total BS. It will NOT void the warranty. A properly prepared K&N filters as well as the average paper filter - if it is the "direct replacement" type filter. The canless performance cone may be a different situation. >> Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. >> In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Thanks in advance >> Denny B Ah.....no they wont. http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm > Hope you don't tell Ford. They'll void your warranty. K&N's don't filter > very well. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Thanks in advance > > Denny B "Under this federal statute, a manufacturer, who issues a warranty on your motor vehicle, is prohibited from requiring you to use a particular brand of air filter, oil filter, or other service or maintenance item, unless such item is provided, free of charge, under your warranty or unless the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) waives this prohibition against the manufacturer. K&N is unaware of any exemption or waiver granted by the FTC to any motor vehicle manufacturer, which pertains to air filters or oil filters." Facts are stubborn things. Signature_________________________________ http://austinmini.ositech.net Looking for cheap Austin Mini, Wagon, Clubman, Mokes and other variants for sale in the USA. > Ah.....no they wont. > http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> > Thanks in advance >> > Denny B > "Under this federal statute, a manufacturer, who issues a warranty on your > motor vehicle, is prohibited from requiring you to use a particular brand [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Facts are stubborn things. You need to read the WHOLE law. They can deny your warranty but must prove why. If you want to take them to court to make them prove it go for. It wouldn't be worth the time or money to me to use that over-priced, greasy, gotta clean it, gotta oil it thing they call a filter :) Some of us do like and use them for over 10 years with no problem. I suppose if you can't follow simple instructions you can just use the paper variety. Signature_________________________________ http://austinmini.ositech.net Looking for cheap Austin Mini, Wagon, Clubman, Mokes and other variants for sale in the USA. >> "Under this federal statute, a manufacturer, who issues a warranty on >> your motor vehicle, is prohibited from requiring you to use a particular [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/2004 > Some of us do like and use them for over 10 years with no problem. > > I suppose if you can't follow simple instructions you can just use the > paper variety. ================== Just because I dont want to send oily dirt down my intake (which I have personally seen on many, many Crown Vics BTW), pay $50 for, clean and oil ect. , doesnt mean I can't follow simple instructions. If you did a little research on those type of filters, I bet you wouldn't use them either. I've never seen so many nasty, dirty MAF sensors and throttle plates/bores since those K&Ns. ================== > _________________________________ > http://austinmini.ositech.net [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/2004 Sir, show me the proof. Thanks. PS: Just so that we are clear, I am willing to be educated here but I will need hard concrete scientific CSI type proof. Signature_________________________________ http://austinmini.ositech.net Looking for cheap Austin Mini, Wagon, Clubman, Mokes and other variants for sale in the USA. >> Some of us do like and use them for over 10 years with no problem. >> [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] >>> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >>> Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/2004 > "Under this federal statute, a manufacturer, who issues a warranty on your > motor vehicle, is prohibited from requiring you to use a particular brand of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Facts are stubborn things. I believe you are misinterpreting the rules. While Ford can't require you to use a "Ford" filter, they can require you to use a filter that meets Ford's specifications. K&N deliberately tries to obscure this difference. Regards, Ed White Sir, do you have proof, documented and from a trusted laboratory, that the K&N filter is not up to the Ford specifications? If so please share it. Signature_________________________________ http://austinmini.ositech.net Looking for cheap Austin Mini, Wagon, Clubman, Mokes and other variants for sale in the USA. >> "Under this federal statute, a manufacturer, who issues a warranty on >> your [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Ed White > Sir, do you have proof, documented and from a trusted laboratory, that the > K&N filter is not up to the Ford specifications? > > If so please share it. Exactly who would run such a test? If their filters meet OEM requiremnts, don't you think K&N would say so? Do you have any proof that K&N Filters meet the Ford specifications? Even Fram claims to meet OEM specifications. K&N never says that they meet or exceed OEM requirments. Instead they spend a lot of time trying to obscure the issue by talking about the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and trying to imply that this negates the need of meeting OEM specifications, which it doesn't. On the otherhand, as I pointed out in another post, Ford Performance Parts actually sells K&N Filters under a Ford Part Number. This fact seems to me to be an oblique endorsement of K&N filters. Ed > -- > _________________________________ [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > > > Ed White > Ah.....no they wont. > http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm Ford can require you to use parts that meet certain specifications. They just can't require you to buy "Ford" parts. "K&N interprets this law to also prohibit the motor vehicle manufacturer from restricting your use of a particular brand of air filter, oil filter, etc." While this is true, it does not also mean that you can use any old "filter." If ken's interpretation was true, I could stick a chunk of chicken wire in the filter box and claim that it wouldn't void the warranty. I think the correct interpretation of the law is - "You can use any brand of filter you want as long as it meets or exceeds Ford's performance requirements." Whether or not K&N filters meet Ford performance requirements in debatable. Since K&N doesn't clearly claim to meet OEM spec's, I'd recommend that they not be used. However, Ford Performance Parts does sell K&N filters and Saleen Mustangs are sold with them installed with the warranty intact. So, if you are patient and willing to fight it out in court, I suppose you could use those facts to claim that Ford has acknowledged that K&N filters are acceptable replacement filters. Might make for an interesting court battle. See http://tinyurl.com/47p7v , go to page 154 in The Sport Compact Performance Parts section or see http://tinyurl.com/5et6k . This is a K&N Air Filter, sold by Ford for a Ford. It even has a Ford P/N. The catalog note lists it as a "direct replacement part" and there is not any restriction noted. I'd say this amounts to an acceptance by Ford of K&N Filters, at least for some vehicles. For sure if you buy the Ford branded K&N Filter and have it installed at the dealer, you are virtually assured your warranty will be unaffected. Personally I will not use a K&N Filter on a street car (whether bought from K&N or Ford). The performance gain will be minimal (if any), the fuel economy gain non-existent, there is a possibility of MAF contamination, and I don't believe they filter as well as a good quality paper filter. The non negligible risk and little possibility for reward make K&N filters a bad decision. Regards, Ed White >> Ah.....no they wont. >> http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > >Ed White Let's just cut to the chase. ANyone on the list have FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE of Ford, or any other manufacturer refusing warranty because of a K&N filter being installed on the vehicle???? If so, lets have it. Put up or shut up. >>> Ah.....no they wont. >>> http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > >Put up or shut up. "SERVICE - ALL BUICK, CADILLAC, CHEVROLET, GMC TRUCK, ISUZU, OLDSMOBILE, PONTIAC AND HUMMER DEALERS Subject: A/T Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or SES Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter -- 2004 and Prior Cars and Lt Duty Trucks and 2003-2004 HUMMER H2 Message #: VSS20040056 Corporate Bulletin Number 04-07-30-013 will be available in SI on March 18, 2004. Automatic Transmission Shift, Engine Driveability Concerns or Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On as a Result of the Installation of an Aftermarket Reusable, Excessively Oiled Air Filter Models: 2004 and All Prior Cars and Light Duty Trucks 2003-2004 HUMMER H2 DO THIS First, Inspect the vehicle for a reusable aftermarket excessively oiled air filter DON'T DO THIS DO NOT repair under warranty if concerns result from the use of a reusable aftermarket oiled air filter. The installation of an aftermarket reusable, oiled air filter may result in: 1. Service Engine Soon (SES) Light On 2. Transmission shift concerns, slipping and damaged clutch(es) or band(s) 3. Engine driveability concerns, poor acceleration from a stop, limited engine RPM range The oil that is used on these air filter elements may be transferred onto the Mass Air Flow (MAF) sensor causing contamination of the sensor. As a result, the Grams per Second (GPS) signal from the MAF may be low and any or all of the concerns listed above may occur. When servicing a vehicle with any of these concerns, be sure to check for the presence of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter. The MAF, GPS reading should be compared to a like vehicle with a OEM air box and filter under the same driving conditions to verify the concern. Transmission or engine driveability concerns that are the result of the installation of an aftermarket reusable, excessively oiled air filter are not considered to be warrantable repair items" -- Elbridge Gerry, of Massachusetts: "What, sir, is the use of militia? It is to prevent the establishment of a standing army, the bane of liberty. . . Whenever Government means to invade the rights and liberties of the people, they always attempt to destroy the militia, in order to raise a standing army upon its ruins." -- Debate, U.S. House of Representatives, August 17, 1789 > Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. > In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick > it up tomorrow $47 plus tax. > > I.m not interested in more HP but the more air flow interests me > with better combustion. K&N's are ONLY claimed to be effective at or near WOT...That's foot-to-the- floor! Otherwise any decent filter will allow all the air the engine asks for. So if you dont care about HP, it COULDNT do you any good. 1. It's the MAF that determines combustion "efficiency" and with the K&N you have to clean MAF more often than the every 5 years or so that most are cleaned -if ever. 2. YOu dont mention the car... but dont you realize that Ford designed the systems on all cars to obtain max efficiency so as to meet mileage standards? The K&N is a reputable and viable product for HIGH PERFORMANCE modders who have altered the rest of their induction system to take advantage of such a product, but simply slapping one on to your taurus family car is just silly IF you're interested enough to spring for an add-on like that without understanding how the systems work, you're going to be a sucker for every other add-on that comes down the road. Like battery powered superchargers on ebay Go to the library. Read the Probst books and those on modding the 5.0 and 2.3 to understand how engines work with FI [This followup was posted to alt.autos.ford and a copy was sent to the cited author.] > Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. > In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick > it up tomorrow $47 plus tax. > > I.m not interested in more HP but the more air flow interests me > with better combustion. What car is it being put into? Unless it's more than 10+ years old or a low-end budget car, the filter is probably not a major factor. With the power race, manufacturers have made the intake and exhaust systems very efficient. Many simple bolt-on mods typically add only a few horsepower at best. That might be noticeable on a car that only makes 100-110hp, but on a 200+ V6 or V8, you won't notice it. Plus, you'll really only notice it at full or near-full throttle. Unless you carry or tow heavy loads, or drag race, you'll never notice it or get any payback from the higher cost. Most of the claims you see are typically for older 60's/70's muscle cars and similar. Or people who replace a 5-year old clogged filter. Plus, I believe K&N filters are oiled filters. You must be careful because if that oil gets onto the MAF (Mass Airflow Sensor), it can clog or otherwise affect it, causing engine problems. SignatureIf there is a no_junk in my address, please REMOVE it before replying! All junk mail senders will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law!! http://home.att.net/~andyross HEre's an easy way to think about things like this. If you could see into the throttle body of your intake system while you are cruising or just driving normally the throttle plate would look as if it was nearly closed... on one side of it is a vacuum, on the other side is air really WANTING to get in. so it is the throttle that's restricting the airflow ..AND THATS WHAT YOU WANT!!! With port fuel injection the fuel is WAY down the line so any "swirl" (as if it could make it past the intake hosing) has no effect on the mix at this point If you dont believe me, borrow or buy a cheap vacuum gauge and hook it to the manifold... then watch it while you're driving... and note the filter can ONLY affect the engine when the gauge shows near zero > Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. > In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks in advance > Denny B >HEre's an easy way to think about things like this. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >manifold... then watch it while you're driving... and note the filter can >ONLY affect the engine when the gauge shows near zero You are 100% correct. A filter has to be pretty badly restricted to affect power at less than WOT on today's vehicles. I had the K&N replacement filter in the stock air filter case on my Aerostar vans. I installed mine (on my first van) on a trip , pulling a 17 foot cabin trailer across country from central Ontario to BC, via the american midwest. I think I got slightly better performance in the mountains with the K&N, but I really only bought it to avoid generating trash every couple months or every year throwing away a disposable filter. I am, by nature, adverse to throwing away something that could still have some use left - or that could be replaced ONCE with something that can then be serviced and not replaced. My vehicles always last well beyond the average lifespan because I take care of them. The filter went from my first aerostar into my last one, and as far as I know is still in it (sold the van over 2 years ago) >> Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. >> In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Thanks in advance >> Denny B I have had two cars in 36 years, a 1968 Nova and now still my 1981 Ford Fairmont. I am the mechanic on my vehicle and have no interest and time for GIMMICKS. I am not interested in the K&N filter for more power nor for fuel economy. The construction of the K&N makes me believe more air will pass through as compared to the paper ( wood ) filter. Stores love to sell you paper filters and keep you coming back and the car manufactures are only interested in installing minimum standard components and parts for the AVERAGE JOE (that's me) on their vehicles. To maintain your vehicle until the warranty has expired the car manufactures want to make maintenance cheap for you like paper air filters. Do you think the car manufacturer can buy a K&N filter for 10 cents? If they could you'd have a K&N filter in your vehicle. I am not interested in any special K&N air filter, I will get the replacement for my paper filter and fit the K&N directly into the filter housing. The size is exactly the same as the paper filter. Denny B > >HEre's an easy way to think about things like this. > > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > >> Thanks in advance > >> Denny B That's what I've always done Benny and I salute you for your tenacity with cars. Signature_________________________________ http://austinmini.ositech.net Looking for cheap Austin Mini, Wagon, Clubman, Mokes and other variants for sale in the USA. >I have had two cars in 36 years, a 1968 Nova and now still > my 1981 Ford Fairmont. I am the mechanic on my vehicle and [quoted text clipped - 87 lines] >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> Denny B I put a K&N in my wife's Explorer Sport. I then took a trip from LA to MT. The average MPG was 23. Funny thing, that is the exact same MPG average I got the two years before on the exact same trip. So, did it do any thing? Well, it did make my wallet a whole lot lighter:) Other than that, not a damn thing as far as I can tell. I'll bet if I had the "Tornado" and some Slick 50 in the crankcase I could have done better...whatdaya think? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice and I'm a dumb f.ck. SignatureR. J. Talley > That's what I've always done Benny and I salute you for your tenacity with > cars. [quoted text clipped - 90 lines] > >> >> Thanks in advance > >> >> Denny B > That's what I've always done Benny and I salute you for your tenacity with > cars. Ater me a car heads to the junk yard and not to somebody else to drive for another 10 to 15 years. I used to work with a guy who bought a new vehicle every two years. People at work used to line up to buy his vehicle when it was known he wanted to sell it. One guy kept a vehicle he sold for 13 years then traded it in for another vehicle to accommodate his growing family. I believe in keeping a vehicle until its life is exhausted. Denny B > -- > _________________________________ [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] > >> >> Thanks in advance > >> >> Denny B It makes economic sense Denny. What is the secret to doing this? Signature_________________________________ http://austinmini.ositech.net Looking for cheap Austin Mini, Wagon, Clubman, Mokes and other variants for sale in the USA. >> That's what I've always done Benny and I salute you for your > tenacity with [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] >> >> >> Thanks in advance >> >> >> Denny B > It makes economic sense Denny. What is the secret to doing this? No secret. Don't buy a new car every few years. Maintain use in a responsible manner and fix it when it breaks. You will save thousands and not having car payments is a pay raise. Unless you wreck the car, there is no reason to get rid of it. > >> That's what I've always done Benny and I salute you for your > > tenacity with [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] > >> >> >> Thanks in advance > >> >> >> Denny B Thomas Moats, sums up what I would also suggest. Denny B > It makes economic sense Denny. What is the secret to doing this? > [quoted text clipped - 139 lines] > >> >> >> Thanks in advance > >> >> >> Denny B > Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. > In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick > it up tomorrow $47 plus tax. K&N filters are an excellent buy for your Ford at $47. Here in the UK they are sold as a 'sporty' accessory and pitched at ridiculously high prices. They are much better than original equipment - but watch how much you pay. SignatureFor Welsh Military Flying visit ....... www.groups.yahoo.com/group/V-A-S/ By the way, since Ford sucks so much anyway, why would you want it to suck more? :-) Hank > Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. > In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Your input appreciated. First off - you dont specify, which leads the reader to assume that'you're talking about the K&N performance filter not the replacement version. And you SAID you didnt care about HP yet you care about air-flow... WTF does THAT mean? Combine this with your LATER statements that you're buying them because paper filters are such a waste of money.. your time to clean the filter apparently doesnt count. How long does the "refreshing" process take? How long to clean a MAF... which seems to me should be done, because the filter is oiled, each 50k as well? What are your driving conditions? Lotsa dust dust sand gravel in the air? Go ahead... makes sense. No? why bother. Your logic is like... if a purolator / wix filter at 3- 5 bucks is good, then a 10 buck mobil 1 should be better... even though I change oil at 3 k! \ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- Know a furnace A/C guy? Ask him to help and attach his manometer before and after the filter and take it on the road, see what it shows full throttle with both a dirty paper/20,000 miles, a clean paper, and a K&n oiled replacement. I've done it.... though not with a k&N. YMMV but that's why I change air filters every 25 K if then, but I knock it on a clean sheet of paper every oil change to see what happens. May open your eyes a little. Lesse...I could buy a Kn.. for 50 bucks, spend 2 hours every 50 k cleaning it and the MAF. Thats once a year for me.. Or I could spend 16 bucks for 2 and 1/4 hour vaccing the box per year, cleaning MAF every other year....At that rate, I'll pay back the cost of the K&N about the time I run the car to the scrappers. I,ve had two cars in the last 36 years, a 1968 Nova and a 1981 Ford Fairmont. They have been my daily drivers and I have been the mechanic. Also I am the bodyman and the painter. A few weeks ago I did restoration bodywork and have epoxy primed the vehicle and thats how I will drive it for the Winter. About six hours ago I picked up my K&N filter which I have installed and so far satisfied with. From what I state above you should know I don't have a MAF nor do I desire to own a vehicle with one. Denny B > > Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. > > In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > cleaning MAF every other year....At that rate, I'll pay back the cost of the > K&N about the time I run the car to the scrappers. Thats fine... I didnt write that last for you, I wrote it for someone who might google the group for pros and cons, I think everyone should make such a decision with all things considered. Since your engines are both carbed, I dont care... I been driving since 58 and worked on my own cars, off and on since then. If I ever have another car with a carb, it and/or engine will come out to be replaced with full port FI. Thats MY geezer point of view! Cheers :) Denny B opined > From what I state above you should know I don't have a > MAF nor do I desire to own a vehicle with one. > > Denny B >> Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. >> In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >paper filters are such a waste of money.. your time to clean the filter >apparently doesnt count. I never said ANYTHING about a waste of money. I said I don't like generating un-necessary junk. >How long does the "refreshing" process take? How long to clean a MAF... >which seems to me should be done, because the filter is oiled, each 50k as >well? Takes about 10 extra minutes to clean and oil while doing an oil change on the vehicle. The intake passages and Maf get cleaned once a year on my vehicles, regardless what filter is used. >What are your driving conditions? Lotsa dust dust sand gravel in the air? >Go ahead... makes sense. Yes, I drive a fair amount on secondary roads which are often gravel surface. I also drive in the winter on highways which are heavilly sanded, as well as salted. That sand often stays around for a good part of the spring. The road shoulders are also gravel, and a lot of that fine sandy crap ends up on the road throughout the summer. It is not out of the ordinary to find a pretty good deposit of sand and grit in the bottom of the air filter housing at service time. >No? why bother. > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >cleaning MAF every other year....At that rate, I'll pay back the cost of the >K&N about the time I run the car to the scrappers. Check out this guys site, very interesting...a good read I think. He did some testing of air filters and K&N was one of them. http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/airfilter/airtest1.htm > Are K&N air filters any good. I have read much about them recently. > In fact I have ordered one to replace my standard paper filter. I pick [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Thanks in advance > Denny B Correct me if I'm wrong; When he talk about color comparision, I think the darker the color the better the filtration because more dirt was collected on the filter. > Check out this guys site, very interesting...a good read I think. He did > some testing of air filters and K&N was one of them. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/2004 > Correct me if I'm wrong; When he talk about color comparision, > I think the darker the color the better the filtration because more > dirt was collected on the filter. -- The colored filter that you are referring to is BEHIND or downstream from the filter being tested. It is used as a second filter to see what passed throught the first filter. The darker the color, the more crap came through the first filter. The lighter the color, the more crap was trapped by the first filter. Every day is a good day- it's just that some are better than others. > Correct me if I'm wrong; When he talk about color comparision, > I think the darker the color the better the filtration because more > dirt was collected on the filter. Nope, you need to read/look again. Any of you die-hard K&N fans look at the site? What do you think? It might change your mind about the filtering efficency of K&N, and the real amount of air flow increase. >> Check out this guys site, very interesting...a good read I think. He did >> some testing of air filters and K&N was one of them. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >> Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/2004 Wrong. The darkness is on the secondary filter and it measures the dirt that got PAST the PRIMARY filter. (I'm not shouting, only emphasizing) Thus, the K&N is under performing compared to the paper WIX or the two Miata and whatever filter. SignatureR. J. Talley Teacher/James Madison Fellow NAR #69594 NRA #133073736 > Correct me if I'm wrong; When he talk about color comparision, > I think the darker the color the better the filtration because more [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.771 / Virus Database: 518 - Release Date: 9/28/2004 |
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