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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / November 2004

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1986 LTD II

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Tully - 04 Nov 2004 22:54 GMT
I have acquired this car, not new, but its in fairly good shape to be as
old as it is.  It's a 3.8 TBI and I have this problem where it won't start
when its hot.  I'll explain, the car will fire right up when it is cold,
then from the time it cranks you can drive it just about anywhere.  I
usually make 30 mile trips to work.  Now if I cut it off and let it sit ~5
minutes, it won't crank when I try to crank it.  It just spins and spins
and doesn't crank.  I have injector pulse and spark, or so it seems.  I've
replaced the TFI Module seeing it was the same symptoms I had seen before.
Well after the car won't crank, if I let it sit a few hours it will crank
right up and go on its merry way, till I cut it off again.  Any advice
where to start looking to trouble shoot this?  Thanks.

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The truth is out there

Backyard Mechanic - 05 Nov 2004 02:01 GMT
> I have acquired this car, not new, but its in fairly good shape to be as
> old as it is.  It's a 3.8 TBI and I have this problem where it won't start
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> right up and go on its merry way, till I cut it off again.  Any advice
> where to start looking to trouble shoot this?  Thanks.

I dont know crap about CFI except that the injectors are prone to leak.

And that should be easy to find out.

And do you try flooring it to start when starting hot?  The computer sees
that and shortens the injector pulse.
Tully - 05 Nov 2004 17:34 GMT
> > I have acquired this car, not new, but its in fairly good shape to be
> > as
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
> sees
> that and shortens the injector pulse.

Thanks for the information, I was thinking it could be an injector that
was leaking, I'll have to look into it.

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c palmer - 05 Nov 2004 09:09 GMT
dig deeper into the electrical and you will find the problem.  

had the same problem on my LTD II.  got the recall notice and took it to
the dealer.  before then had the same problem you are having.  fire up
great when cold and would start right up if you didn't let it sit for
over 10 minutes.  after 10 minutes,  you would have to wait hours so the
engine would cool down.

well, the dealer said the replaced what the recall was for.  i picked
the car up and all that day, it started and ran fine.  next morning,
dead as a door nail.  would spin, no start.  like no spark.  called
dealer.  they sent tow truck.  when i went to pick up the car, they said
there was no charge.  when i asked why, they said there is TWO pieces
that make up this circuit and they replaced the one and not the other.
it was the other piece that they didn't replace that went bad.  no
problem after that for as long as i owned the car.

hope this information helps.

~ curtis

knowledge is power - growing old is mandatory - growing wise is optional    
"Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."
Tully - 05 Nov 2004 17:34 GMT
> dig deeper into the electrical and you will find the problem.
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> "Many more men die with prostate cancer than of it. Growing old is
> invariably fatal. Prostate cancer is only sometimes so."

Thanks for responding, now I'll go see if I can find a list of recalls on
this particular model see if I can get it working.  Thanks again.

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Happy Traveler - 06 Nov 2004 22:01 GMT
For what it's worth, a couple pieces of advice from someone who has babied
an '85 LTD for the last 15 years:
1) You are saying 'or so it seems' about the presence of spark when the
engine refuses to start. Make sure to confirm that. Pull one of the wires,
attach a spare plug and put it on something metallic. Look for a spark while
an assistant works the ignition (or turn the switch to 'ON' and use a remote
starter). Works better in a dark garage. If no spark, I would look inside
the distributor. The plastic material which encapsulates the Hall effect
type pickup tends to disintegrate over time. Replacing the TFI might have
made it worse, because that's what the TFI plugs into. Check that the sensor
is intact and that the connection to the TFI is solid. The distributor needs
to come apart to replace the sensor, and it's not an easy thing to do. You
may be better off with a rebuilt distributor if you find that the sensor has
fallen apart.
2) Make sure that the fuel pump is working. You should hear it for a couple
seconds when you turn the ignition on.
3) Confirm that you have injector pulse. There is a $5 tester for this
purpose.
4) If no injector pulse or you can't hear the pump, check that the ECM
(engine computer) has power. It's powered through a relay that likes to
fail.
5) When the problem occurs, perform a KOEO diagnostic test. All you need is
a test light and a paper clip. Minor problems won't prevent it from
starting, but something major will. There may be a lose contact somewhere,
which disengages when things get hot and affects a lot. In my case, the +5V
reference would disappear, rendering every single sensor useless. If you
can't interpret the codes, post them here and someone will try to help you.
6) If you haven't found anything else, I would advise checking fuel
pressure. You can buy or rent the gauge. There is a test port on the fuel
line. Read the instructions and be careful not to spill any gasoline around
a hot engine! The TBI regulator is not vacuum compensated, so no rubber
diaphragm to break, but who knows.. You may have a bad pump, a clogged
filter, a grossly leaking injector - all leading to loss of pressure.
7) There is a simple instrument which will pulse the injectors and let you
check if they work properly by watching the fuel pressure.

Let us know what you found
tully - 06 Nov 2004 23:30 GMT
: For what it's worth, a couple pieces of advice from someone who has babied
: an '85 LTD for the last 15 years:
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
: may be better off with a rebuilt distributor if you find that the sensor has
: fallen apart.

I definitely have spark, this is the first thing I checked a few months
ago before I stopped driving the car.  Upon your recommendation I opened
the distributor back up today and looked inside with a flashlight, coating
the bottom looks like there is this "black stuff" (maybe insulation, or
oil).  Couldn't tell if the hall effect switch was deteriorated or not
just the black substance in the base of the distributor.

: 2) Make sure that the fuel pump is working. You should hear it for a couple
: seconds when you turn the ignition on.

This I have checked, and it is pumping properly.  There is what seems like
an intermittent problem here, I'll get to that in a minute.

: 3) Confirm that you have injector pulse. There is a $5 tester for this
: purpose.

Injectors are pulsing, checked visually and with a noid light.

: 4) If no injector pulse or you can't hear the pump, check that the ECM
: (engine computer) has power. It's powered through a relay that likes to
: fail.

This is where the intermittent problem comes in.  I am diagnosing this car
myself and it is sometimes difficult to be in two places at once.  But I
have noticed it seems like sometimes the ECM relay isn't functioning.  Its
in the right kick panel and when it works you can hear it click and the
fuel pump engage.  This doesn't happen all the time,  I could be imagining
it, but when I go to check it out it works properly.

: 5) When the problem occurs, perform a KOEO diagnostic test. All you need is
: a test light and a paper clip. Minor problems won't prevent it from
: starting, but something major will. There may be a lose contact somewhere,
: which disengages when things get hot and affects a lot. In my case, the +5V
: reference would disappear, rendering every single sensor useless. If you
: can't interpret the codes, post them here and someone will try to help you.

No codes set as of right now.  I might try to go drive it and check it
again.

: 6) If you haven't found anything else, I would advise checking fuel
: pressure. You can buy or rent the gauge. There is a test port on the fuel
: line. Read the instructions and be careful not to spill any gasoline around
: a hot engine! The TBI regulator is not vacuum compensated, so no rubber
: diaphragm to break, but who knows.. You may have a bad pump, a clogged
: filter, a grossly leaking injector - all leading to loss of pressure.

Fuel pressure is adequate, and the injectors do not seem to be leaking
pressure.  The pressure stays up even after letting the car sit for a
while.

: 7) There is a simple instrument which will pulse the injectors and let you
: check if they work properly by watching the fuel pressure.
:
: Let us know what you found

Right now I am leaning torwards the hall effect switch or the ecm relay.
I may be barking up the entirely wrong tree, wouldnt' be the first time
with this car.    This is where I am at at the time being, the car is
becoming a headache.  Thanks for your input.
 
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