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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / April 200594 Taurus Engine stalls after a long trip, why?, Please Help!
Hello All I have a 1994 Taurus wagon with a 3.8 V6, the car runs fine, well it did until now. We took a trip out of town, the trip took about 1.5 hours, (almost all freeway, averaged 60 mph on cruise) and ended with a long upward hill. When we stopped at a gas station the car would not idle properly, ran rough, and then stalled. After about 15 minutes the car started and ran ok, we were at our destination so we parked for the night. The next day the car started and ran like normal so we returned home, the car again after about 1.5 hours of freeway driving started to act up, first the check engine light start coming on, then going out, as well as noticeable power loss when trying to accelerate. When we pulled off the freeway and the car stalled at the first stop sign. We were able to inch the car home, each time stopping for about 10 minutes or until the car would start and run to the next stop sign or light. Now I am confused, a friend told me that it may be the catalytic converter, how and why? these parts are very expensive, I do not want to go about trying to fix this problem with a trial and error approach. I have only owned the car for the last 6 months and have no maintenance history. I thank anyone who responds to my post, as I would like to know something before I have to take it in to the dealership. Cheers Neil please respond to me directly, thanks neil > Hello All > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Cheers > Neil Why would you want people to respond in email? the idea of this newsgroup is to have things posted publicly, so that others can also learn and/or use the information. > please respond to me directly, thanks > neil [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> Cheers >> Neil yes I fully understand that, I don't always have acess to this newgroup and a response is very important to me at this time. If they want to respond to both, so much the better. > Why would you want people to respond in email? the idea of this newsgroup > is to have things posted publicly, so that others can also learn and/or [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >>> Cheers >>> Neil > yes I fully understand that, I don't always have acess to this newgroup > and a response is very important to me at this time. If they want to > respond to both, so much the better. If it is that important to you, you will obtain access to the newsgroup. You can access it at google groups. And your local library should have computers connected to the internet. Jeff Neil.... no one in their right mind will respond by email now that we've seen people post on here just to gather good email addresses... sorry, blame spammers! And as said... you can just find any web-capable PC and look it up on google groups. > Why would you want people to respond in email? the idea of this > newsgroup is to have things posted publicly, so that others can also > learn and/or use the information. > >> please respond to me directly, thanks >> neil >>> I thank anyone who responds to my post, as I would like to know >>> something before I have to take it in to the dealership. >>> >>> Cheers >>> Neil  Signature- Yes, I'm a crusty old geezer curmudgeon.. deal with it! - > Hello All > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Cheers > Neil It could be overheating. I had the same problem when I forgot to put coolant back in my old 289 after putting a different pair of heads on it. The heads had large chambers so compression was lower and I expected power to be lower. So I ran the car for a week with virtually no coolant. The overheat light never triggered because I accidentally broke the sender (it was a bad day). Anyhow, running on teh highway it was gutless. Stopping for a toll booth it stalled and didn't wanna start. Took me a minute to get it started again and then it ran alright once I got moving again. Finally I remembered I forgot to fill the coolant system so I pulled over and filled it. Problem solved. More power and didn't run rough or stall. Of course I had gone a few hundred miles with no coolant already, but no harm was done. Those 289s sure are tough little engines! So, make sure your coolant system is full and your thermostat is working. Also, you may wanna check that your temp sensor is working and your overheat light bulb is not burnt out or otherwise non-functional. An engine can overheat for several reasons other than that, such as retarded timing, malfunctioning fan, malfunctioning EGR valve, I suppose O2 sensors could cause it as well. Anyhow, it's just something that may be worth checking. Cory >> Hello All >> [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > Cory cory explain how an egr o2 sensors could cause itvto over heat lmfao hurc ast > >> Hello All > >> [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] > > > cory explain how an egr o2 sensors could cause itvto over heat I believe you are the resident troll, but I don't recall so I'll explain anyway. A malfuctioning EGR system can lean out the mixture. A malfunctioning O2 sensor may result in giving an false rich reading, the computer will compensate by leaning out the mixture. A leaner mixture burns hotter, raising combustion chamber temps and thus the temperature of the entire engine. Also, an excessively lean mixture can burn holes in pistons and do some real nasty damage. Cory >> >> Hello All >> >> [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] > I believe you are the resident troll, but I don't recall so I'll explain > anyway. A malfuctioning EGR system can lean out the mixture. The EGR gasses displaces the oxygen, so in effect the mixture is not lean. There is less oxygen to support combustion. > A > malfunctioning O2 sensor may result in giving an false rich reading, the > computer will compensate by leaning out the mixture. The mixture that the ECM provides will never get to that point. >A leaner mixture burns > hotter, raising combustion chamber temps and thus the temperature of the > entire engine. Also, an excessively lean mixture can burn holes in pistons > and do some real nasty damage. > > Cory > >> >> Hello All > >> >> [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > The EGR gasses displaces the oxygen, so in effect the mixture is not lean. There > is less oxygen to support combustion. A malfunctioning EGR valve can not add any exhaust gas. I didn't say _how_ it was malfunctioning, just that it was... > > A > > malfunctioning O2 sensor may result in giving an false rich reading, the > > computer will compensate by leaning out the mixture. > > The mixture that the ECM provides will never get to that point. Interesting. How do you know this? Where did you read it, or more importantly, where can I read it? How about this hypothetical situation in which the O2 sensors are reading rather rich when the mixture is in fact just fine. What does the computer do? What does it do when the mixture leans to the point that it starts pinging and it cuts back on timing as the knock sensors tell it the engine is suffering pre-detonation? A lean mixture and retarded timing will certainly cause higher engine temps, and retarded timing can easily overheat an engine. > >A leaner mixture burns > > hotter, raising combustion chamber temps and thus the temperature of the > > entire engine. Also, an excessively lean mixture can burn holes in pistons > > and do some real nasty damage. > > > > Cory >> >> >> Hello All >> >> >> [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > A malfunctioning EGR valve can not add any exhaust gas. I didn't say _how_ > it was malfunctioning, just that it was... The job of the EGR is to PUT EXHAUST into the intake air. That is how ERG functions. By introducing a non-combustible gas into the intake it lowers combustion temperatures. An EGR will only fail in two ways open or closed. If it fails open? The combustion process is greatly impeded because the oxygen content of the intake air is reduced. It is not a lean mixture, the ratio of fuel to gas is the same, the only change is the composition of the gas, it's now more inert. That is how NOX is controlled. It was by accident that engineers found it also helped with knock, a nice side effect. Stuck closed? The engine will not over heat, might have some mild ping under load, most likely not enough to cause damage if all other systems are ok. >> > A >> > malfunctioning O2 sensor may result in giving an false rich reading, the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Interesting. How do you know this? Where did you read it, or more > importantly, where can I read it? That will cost you, it's called class room training. You can also buy materials to learn what is going on. >How about this hypothetical situation in > which the O2 sensors are reading rather rich when the mixture is in fact > just fine. That will not happen. Because of all the variables it is impossible to have a mixture that is just fine, as a result of this fact the ECM uses the O2's to determine if the mixture is too rich or lean. Typically the O2 when failing does not respond; the voltage signal says constant. That alone is enough to cause the ECM too know there is something amiss. When the ECM has an O2 that does not switch, it try's to make it switch to test it. >What does the computer do? What does it do when the mixture leans > to the point that it starts pinging and it cuts back on timing as the knock > sensors tell it the engine is suffering pre-detonation? First off not all engines have knock sensors, second the ones that do; do not work in the way you are implying. When the ECM sees a signal from the knock sensor it only retards the timing a few degrees at most, it does not keep going until it does not see the signal any more. >A lean mixture and > retarded timing will certainly cause higher engine temps, and retarded [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > pistons >> > and do some real nasty damage. This is not a race engine we are talking about, this is a production engine with the average compression ratios of 9:1 at the most for high performance engines, most are in the range of 8:1. The only thing that is going to happen is low power, lean mixtures are the result of not enough fuel volume which causes low pressure under load. >> > Cory >sensors tell it the engine is suffering pre-detonation? A lean mixture and >retarded timing will certainly cause higher engine temps, and retarded No, a fuel injected engine running lean will run colder. Move into the '80s... > >sensors tell it the engine is suffering pre-detonation? A lean mixture and > >retarded timing will certainly cause higher engine temps, and retarded > > No, a fuel injected engine running lean will run colder. > Move into the '80s... Intersting. How will a lean mixture burn colder? Car engines run richer that stoicheometric. Stoich is quite 'lean' for automotice engien standards and will burn too hot, causing damage to parts. I'm curious, if you are correct in that fuel injected engines running the same lean mixture as a carbureted engine will burn colder than a carbureted engine, please explain how that is. Leaner burns hotter, the flame front on the cylinder does not 'see' the fuel inject or carb. All it 'sees' is the air/fuel ratio, so how the air and fuel were mixed is irrelevant, or at elast should be as far as anything I was ever tought. Anyhow, please elaborate and explain how an engine running a relatively lean mixture will run colder with fuel injection than it would with a carburetor delivering that same mixture. Cory >computer will compensate by leaning out the mixture. A leaner mixture burns >hotter, raising combustion chamber temps and thus the temperature of the Wrong! That is true with a carbureted engine, but the opposite happens with a fuel injected engine. And you are talking about a Taurus, not a 289/302. To the original poster, have you tried a new TFI module? >> Hello All >> [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > timing, malfunctioning fan, malfunctioning EGR valve, I suppose O2 sensors > could cause it as well. Bad catalyic convertors can cause the engine to overheat because most of the heat is removed by the exahuast, and if the exhaust gas doesn't leave as fast, the heat stays behind. Jeff > Anyhow, it's just something that may be worth checking. > > Cory >>> Hello All >>> [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > heat is removed by the exahuast, and if the exhaust gas doesn't leave as > fast, the heat stays behind. If the exhaust does not leave the engine can not take in fresh air. Because of the lack of oxygen fuel does not burn. Because fuel does not burn no heat. > Jeff >> Anyhow, it's just something that may be worth checking. >> >> Cory >>>> Hello All >>>> [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] >>> >>> Cory >> Bad catalyic convertors can cause the engine to overheat because most of >> the heat is removed by the exahuast, and if the exhaust gas doesn't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Because of the lack of oxygen fuel does not burn. Because fuel does not > burn no heat. That sounds good on paper but it's not really true in the real world. Think in terms of really bad efficiency, throttle at 50 or 75% just to maintain speed and the trans will probably be in 2nd or 3rd instead of OD. Soon things are smoking hot. Bob >>> Bad catalyic convertors can cause the engine to overheat because most of the >>> heat is removed by the exahuast, and if the exhaust gas doesn't leave as [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > smoking hot. > Bob The engine even wide open will act just like it's running out of fuel. You wont go any where. It's not only good on paper but it's a fact because of the basic laws of science. >>>> Hello All >>>> [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] > Because of the lack of oxygen fuel does not burn. Because fuel does not > burn no heat. I apologise. I was not clear enough. I meant if the catalytic constricts the flow of exhaust without completely blocking the outflow. The heat doesn't leave the engine as fast, causing overheating. Jeff >> Jeff >>> Anyhow, it's just something that may be worth checking. >>> >>> Cory >>>>> Hello All >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > Jeff It will still not overheat the engine, simply because there is less oxygen fuel is not burning completely, less heat. If the cats can still do there job some what they may get real hot but the engine is starving and will not. The engine will be simply very low on power and act very much like it's running out of fuel at higher RPM's and under load. >>> Jeff >>>> Anyhow, it's just something that may be worth checking. >>>> >>>> Cory (...) >> I apologise. I was not clear enough. I meant if the catalytic constricts >> the flow of exhaust without completely blocking the outflow. The heat [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > not. The engine will be simply very low on power and act very much like > it's running out of fuel at higher RPM's and under load. That's news to me. A bad catalytic convertor doesn't cause the fuel to burn incompletely. http://autorepair.about.com/cs/generalinfo/a/aa080401a_3.htm Jeff > (...) > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Jeff It's very simple. If the exhaust pressure is high the cylinder can not expel all of the exhaust. If the exhaust system is plugged, where is the exhaust going to go? No where it stays in the cylinder. Meaning you can not take in more fresh air because the cylinder is already partially full or full. An engine in that condition will have low vacuum and will run like its running out of fuel under load and higher RPM's. It's basic science. >> (...) >> [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > like its running out of fuel under load and higher RPM's. It's basic > science. And the heat won't be leaving the engine in the exhaust, either. It is basic science. >>> (...) >>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > And the heat won't be leaving the engine in the exhaust, either. It is basic > science. How do you burn fuel with out oxygen? A plugged exhaust will not cause an over heat. Hey Pick one, Putting our recent discussions aside.... First off, I don't think the OP has a plugged exhaust system. His description was a bit sketchy. I've seen symptoms similar to this on high mileage Tauri and it was usually fuel pressure related. Although it makes no real scientific sense and shouldn't happen, I have seen a restricted exhaust cause much higher than normal cooling systen temps, in severe cases to the point of overheating (usually the exhaust manifolds were glowing orange at this point). I don't know why or how. Once the restriction was removed the temps returned to normal. There is the possibility of a less than optimal cooling system before the restriction occured, or other underlying problems. After the restriction was relieved, operation seemingly returned to within mormal parameters. I was taught the same theory as you and don't dispute what you are saying BUT, I have seen it happen on more than one occasion. Regards, Tom Adkins > Hey Pick one, > Putting our recent discussions aside.... > First off, I don't think the OP has a plugged exhaust system. His description > was a bit sketchy. I've seen symptoms similar to this on high mileage Tauri > and it was usually fuel pressure related. That is the typical cause I'll agree but, a restricted exhaust will look and act just like low fuel pressure. You should know why. > Although it makes no real scientific sense and shouldn't happen, You should know why EGR controls NOX, do you not? Answer that and we will move forward. > I have seen a restricted exhaust cause much higher than normal cooling systen > temps, in severe cases to the point of overheating (usually the exhaust > manifolds were glowing orange at this point). I have seen glowing exhaust at night, I can tell you it was not because of a restricted exhaust, would you like to take a guess as to what the cause was? >I don't know why or how. Once the restriction was removed the temps returned to >normal. > There is the possibility of a less than optimal cooling system before the > restriction occured, or other underlying problems. After the restriction was > relieved, operation seemingly returned to within mormal parameters. I was > taught the same theory as you and don't dispute what you are saying BUT, I > have seen it happen on more than one occasion. I have never seen it happen ,and I can tell you I have at least a few years on you. > Regards, Tom Adkins >> Hey Pick one, >> Putting our recent discussions aside.... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That is the typical cause I'll agree but, a restricted exhaust will look and act > just like low fuel pressure. You should know why. Yes, I know why. >> Although it makes no real scientific sense and shouldn't happen, > > You should know why EGR controls NOX, do you not? Answer that and we will move > forward. Yes, I know how EGR controls NOX. I'm not arguing this with you. >>I have seen a restricted exhaust cause much higher than normal cooling systen >>temps, in severe cases to the point of overheating (usually the exhaust >>manifolds were glowing orange at this point). > > I have seen glowing exhaust at night, I can tell you it was not because of a > restricted exhaust, would you like to take a guess as to what the cause was? No, I don't have a guess, from your description. I've seen a lean fuel mixtuer cause high exhaust temps and glowing exhaust. I'm not saying that a restricted exhaust will always cause overheating. What I have seen is exhaust manifolds glowing bright orange in broad daylight due to exhaust restriction, along with (to the driver) a sharp increase in cooling system temperature. The most vivid recollection was on a 1966 FE (428 cid) powered motor home.(the first case I ever saw). The H pipe was of a triple wall design and the inner "wall" collapsed, mostly plugging the exhaust flow. The only noticible concern was overheating and a slight lack of power. (Along with excessive heat radiating from the doghouse). Pick, I'm not disputing your theory, it is the same theory I have been taught for years. I just know what my eyes have seen and what seemed to be the cause. I won't say this is common, but i have seen it a few times. >>I don't know why or how. Once the restriction was removed the temps returned to >>normal. > > I have never seen it happen ,and I can tell you I have at least a few years on > you. I'm sure you do and I always bow to folks who have more experience and knowledge than myself. I don't claim to know it all. I don't want to argue with you for just that reason. I'd like for our conversations to be more reasonable. Maybe we both have things to teach each other. I'm sure you have experience I can learn from, just please don't discount mine. Tom Adkins >>> Hey Pick one, >>> Putting our recent discussions aside.... [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Yes, I know how EGR controls NOX. I'm not arguing this with you. Good then you know that introducing more inert gas to the intake air does what? Lowers combustion temp's. Now you have a plugged exhaust. Exhaust does not leave. Because of that there is not a pressure drop or very little pressure drop in the cylinder because it's still full or partially full. Because of that little to no pressure drop little to no fresh air enters the cylinder at intake stroke. The cylinder is full of mostly inert gas. How well is combustion process going to be? Not very well. Just like when you dilute the intake air with a little exhaust you drop the combustion temp's, with a lot of exhaust you get even less combustion temp's. Low enough that the cooling system is way over capicity to do a real nice job of taking out any built up heat. >>>I have seen a restricted exhaust cause much higher than normal cooling systen >>>temps, in severe cases to the point of overheating (usually the exhaust [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > mixtuer cause high exhaust temps and glowing exhaust. I'm not saying that a > restricted exhaust will always cause overheating. Years ago, a friend of mine, much like our friend Cory changed his timing chain and gear set. It was in a 302 Granada. He came over to my home later that evening too show off his handy work, only too find out on his way the engine had low power and smelled real hot. I looked at it and found the exhaust manifolds glowing. I turned off the engine and gave him a ride home. The next day Saturday I picked him up. I got out my compression gauge set and ran a compression test. All cylinders were low and even. The cause, he installed the chain with the cam gear off a few teeth. Now why did the manifolds glow? > What I have seen is exhaust manifolds glowing bright orange in broad daylight > due to exhaust restriction, along with (to the driver) a sharp increase in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > noticible concern was overheating and a slight lack of power. (Along with > excessive heat radiating from the doghouse). Slight lack of power with a pipe that had collapsed makeing a pig plug? What do you take me for? > Pick, I'm not disputing your theory, it is the same theory I have been taught > for years. I just know what my eyes have seen and what seemed to be the cause. > I won't say this is common, but i have seen it a few times. You then did not look for the true cause. I'm willing to bet the engine was over rich, very common with motor homes that are equipped with gassers that are not fuel injected. >>>I don't know why or how. Once the restriction was removed the temps returned >>>to normal. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > reasonable. Maybe we both have things to teach each other. I'm sure you have > experience I can learn from, just please don't discount mine. There is no discount, I'm too the point and very frank. I'm not going to walk on egg shells for you or any body for that matter. You see something and admittedly do not know why it happens and want to insist that it's caused by ABC? > Tom Adkins >>>> Hey Pick one, >>>> Putting our recent discussions aside.... [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >even less combustion temp's. Low enough that the cooling system is way over >capicity to do a real nice job of taking out any built up heat. lmfao a pluged cat wiull OVERHEAT tard lmfao ever see a plugeed one inside its MELTED hahaha you have no cert >>>>I have seen a restricted exhaust cause much higher than normal cooling systen >>>>temps, in severe cases to the point of overheating (usually the exhaust [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > >> Tom Adkins >>>>> Hey Pick one, >>>>> Putting our recent discussions aside.... [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > lmfao > a pluged cat wiull OVERHEAT A plugged cat is the result of an over rich fuel system combined with an air pump that pumps, you guessed it oxygen into the cat. Makes a real nice hot fire. The plugging is a result, not the cause. > tard > [quoted text clipped - 78 lines] >> >>> Tom Adkins <<<snip>>> >> It's very simple. If the exhaust pressure is high the cylinder can not expel >> all of the exhaust. If the exhaust system is plugged, where is the exhaust [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > And the heat won't be leaving the engine in the exhaust, either. It is basic > science. SECTION 309-00: Exhaust System 2003 Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Marauder Workshop Manual DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING Procedure revision date: 01/29/2004 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Exhaust System Printable View (55 KB) Special Tool(s) Exhaust Back Pressure Gauge 309-D002 (D95L-6000-A) or equivalent Socket, Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor 303-476 (T94P-9472-A) Inspection and Verification 1.. Verify the concern by running the engine (with the vehicle on the ground) or road testing the vehicle to duplicate the condition. 2.. Visually inspect the components of the exhaust system and related controls that may affect exhaust gas quality or loss of power. 3.. Visually inspect for obvious signs of mechanical damage. Refer to the following chart. Visual Inspection Chart Mechanical a.. Exhaust pipe pinched or crushed b.. Damaged muffler c.. Broken or damaged exhaust hanger brackets d.. Damaged catalytic converter e.. Cracked exhaust manifold f.. Dirty engine air cleaner g.. Loose or damaged heat shields 4.. Verify that the exhaust system is installed correctly, with clamps correctly located and tightened to specification. 5.. If the fault is not visually evident, determine the symptom. GO to Symptom Chart. Symptom Chart Symptom Chart Condition Possible Sources Action a.. Rattle, squeaks or buzz type noise - from the bottom of vehicle a.. Loose or damaged heat shield. a.. GO to Exhaust Heat Shields Component Test in this section. a.. Loose or damaged exhaust isolators. a.. CHECK exhaust isolators are correctly installed. INSPECT the exhaust isolators for wear or damage. INSTALL new isolators as necessary. a.. Damaged exhaust isolator hanger bracket. a.. INSPECT the exhaust system components for damage or broken hangers. INSTALL new components as necessary. CHECK for loose or damaged exhaust hanger brackets or fasteners. TIGHTEN bolts to specification or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Loose or damaged catalytic converter or muffler. a.. MOVE the exhaust system to simulate the bouncing action of the vehicle, checking for exhaust-to-body contact while moving the exhaust system. Using a rubber mallet, TAP on the exhaust components to duplicate the noise concern. Lightly tap on the muffler, then the catalytic converter. Determine if there are loose or broken baffles in the muffler or a loose or broken element in the catalytic converter. REPAIR or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Exhaust grounded to chassis. a.. INSPECT for signs of exhaust components-to-body contact. If necessary, CARRY OUT the Exhaust System Alignment in this section. a.. Drone or clunk type noise - from bottom of vehicle a.. Loose or damaged exhaust isolators. a.. INSPECT exhaust isolators for wear or damage. INSTALL new isolators as necessary. a.. Exhaust grounded to chassis. a.. INSPECT for signs of exhaust components-to-body contact. If necessary, CARRY OUT the Exhaust System Alignment in this section. a.. Whistles, boom, hum or ticking type noise - noise tends to change as engine warms. Noises are often accompanied by exhaust fumes a.. Punctures in the muffler. b.. Broken, loose or missing exhaust manifold fasteners or gaskets. c.. Loose heated oxygen or catalyst monitor sensor. a.. REPAIR as necessary. a.. Exhaust system leak. a.. INSPECT the entire exhaust system for leaks. CHECK for punctures, loose or damaged clamps/fasteners, or broken welds. EXAMINE the chassis for grayish-white or black exhaust soot, which would indicate exhaust leakage at that point. To magnify a small leak, have an assistant hold a rag over the tailpipe outlet, while listening for a leak. REPAIR or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Catalytic converter. a.. MOVE the exhaust system to simulate the bouncing action of the vehicle, checking for exhaust-to-body contact while moving the exhaust system. Using a rubber mallet, TAP on the exhaust components to duplicate the noise concern. Lightly tap on the muffler, then the catalytic converter. Determine if there are loose or broken baffles in the muffler or a loose or broken element in the catalytic converter. REPAIR or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Exhaust muffler/resonator drain hole enlarged due to corrosion. a.. NOTE: Check with vehicle on the ground, not on a hoist. CONFIRM drain holes are noise source. INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Hissing or rushing noise - high frequency sound. Vehicle performance is unaffected a.. Exhaust system. Exhaust flow through pipes. a.. CHECK the exhaust system for leaks. Using a rubber mallet, TAP on the exhaust components to duplicate the noise concern. Lightly tap on the muffler, then the catalytic converter. Determine if there are loose or broken baffles in the muffler or a loose or broken element in the catalytic converter. REPAIR or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Pinging noise - occurs when exhaust system is hot, engine turned off a.. Catalytic converter/exhaust system. a.. Cool down pinging is the exhaust system expanding and contracting during heating and cooling. Condition is normal. a.. Vibration - occurs at idle and at low speeds. Also accompanied by clunk or buzz type noise a.. Loose or damage exhaust isolator. a.. INSPECT the exhaust isolators for wear or damage. INSTALL new isolators as necessary. a.. Loose or damaged exhaust isolator hanger brackets. a.. INSPECT the exhaust isolator hanger brackets for wear or damage. INSTALL or REPAIR as necessary. a.. Damper broken or out of position. a.. CHECK for the correct damper orientation in this section. RELOCATE to correct position and tighten nuts to specification. INSPECT for missing or damaged damper. INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Exhaust system grounded to chassis. a.. CARRY OUT the Exhaust System Alignment in this section. a.. Vehicle has low or no power - vehicle performance complaint a.. Exhaust pipe pinched or crushed. b.. Damaged catalytic converter. c.. Loose obstruction in exhaust. a.. Go To Pinpoint Test A to test for restricted exhaust. a.. Restricted exhaust (possible frozen condensate in muffler). a.. CHECK drain holes for debris. PARK the vehicle inside to thaw. TEST vehicle for normal operation. If concern is still present, Go To Pinpoint Test A. a.. Burning smell - usually occurs at idle, with possible traces of smoke a.. Foreign material caught in exhaust system. b.. Missing heat shields. a.. INSPECT the exhaust system for debris or missing heat shields. REPAIR or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Odor - described as a sulfur or rotten egg smell. a.. Catalytic converter. a.. At times, a slight sulfur smell is normal for catalytic converters. The cause is the sulfur content in the gasoline being used. ADVISE customer, no repair required. a.. Rich fuel conditions. b.. Miss-fire conditions. c.. Excessive sulfur content in fuel. a.. REFER to the Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis (PC/ED) manual. a.. Visible rust on surface of exhaust pipes a.. Catalytic converter/exhaust system. a.. Surface rust is a characteristic of materials used on exhaust system. Exposure to heat or road salt may result in surface rust. INSPECT for perforations. If there are no perforations, condition is normal. Pinpoint Test NOTE: The vehicle can have a lack/loss of power, odor, a noise or a "no start" concern. These concerns may be related to the exhaust system. Carry out the following test, if no trouble codes were stored. This test is for diagnosing the source for these conditions. PINPOINT TEST A: RESTRICTED EXHAUST SYSTEM TEST Test Step Result / Action to Take A1 EXHAUST SYSTEM INSPECTION a.. Inspect the exhaust system for damage or deterioration. Look for cracks, punctures, leaks, loose connections, dents or unusual bending. b.. Is the exhaust system OK? Yes GO to A2. No REPAIR or INSTALL any damaged or deteriorated exhaust components. Test the system for normal operation. A2 BACK PRESSURE TEST a.. Position vehicle on a hoist. Refer to Section 100-02. b.. Connect a tachometer. c.. Using the special tool, remove the upstream heated oxygen sensor (HO2S). d.. Install the back pressure gauge. e.. Start the engine and gradually increase the engine speed to 2,000 rpm with the transmission in NEUTRAL. f.. Is the back pressure greater than 27.6 kPa (4 psi)? Yes GO to A3. No No indications of a restriction have been detected. CONDUCT a diagnosis on other suspect systems. CLEAR the DTCs. A3 BACK PRESSURE TEST - CATALYTIC CONVERTER(S) ON, MUFFLER(S) OFF a.. Turn the engine OFF. b.. Disconnect the muffler assembly from the catalytic converter. c.. Repeat the back pressure test. d.. Is the back pressure greater than 27 kPa (4 psi)? Yes The restriction is in the catalytic converter. INSTALL a new catalytic converter. INSPECT the muffler to be sure the catalytic converter debris has not entered the muffler. CLEAR the DTCs. TEST the system for normal operation. No The restriction is in the muffler assembly. INSTALL a new muffler. CLEAR the DTCs. TEST the system for normal operation. Component Tests Exhaust Heat Shields 1.. With the vehicle in NEUTRAL, position it on a hoist. For additional information, refer to Section 100-02. 2.. Inspect the exhaust system for loose or missing heat shields or foreign material trapped between the heat shields and the exhaust system components. 3.. If any heat shields are loose, install worm gear clamps. a.. Use one of the following clamps: FOTZ-5A231-A or W705949-S300. a.. Trim off the excess ear of the worm clamp. 4.. If the heat shields are missing, install new heat shields or exhaust system components as necessary. 5.. If a rattle, noise or buzz condition persists, install a new heat shield. 6.. Lower the vehicle. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where do you see any mention from the shop manual about even a hint of over heat? You do not and never will. Explain how simple science says what you claim. <snip> > And the heat won't be leaving the engine in the exhaust, either. It is basic > science. > >SECTION 309-00: Exhaust System 2003 Crown Victoria/Grand Marquis/Marauder Workshop Manual DIAGNOSIS AND TESTING Procedure revision date: 01/29/2004 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Exhaust System Printable View (55 KB) Special Tool(s) Exhaust Back Pressure Gauge 309-D002 (D95L-6000-A) or equivalent Socket, Exhaust Gas Oxygen Sensor 303-476 (T94P-9472-A) Inspection and Verification 1.. Verify the concern by running the engine (with the vehicle on the ground) or road testing the vehicle to duplicate the condition. 2.. Visually inspect the components of the exhaust system and related controls that may affect exhaust gas quality or loss of power. 3.. Visually inspect for obvious signs of mechanical damage. Refer to the following chart. Visual Inspection Chart Mechanical a.. Exhaust pipe pinched or crushed b.. Damaged muffler c.. Broken or damaged exhaust hanger brackets d.. Damaged catalytic converter e.. Cracked exhaust manifold f.. Dirty engine air cleaner g.. Loose or damaged heat shields 4.. Verify that the exhaust system is installed correctly, with clamps correctly located and tightened to specification. 5.. If the fault is not visually evident, determine the symptom. GO to Symptom Chart. Symptom Chart Symptom Chart Condition Possible Sources Action a.. Rattle, squeaks or buzz type noise - from the bottom of vehicle a.. Loose or damaged heat shield. a.. GO to Exhaust Heat Shields Component Test in this section. a.. Loose or damaged exhaust isolators. a.. CHECK exhaust isolators are correctly installed. INSPECT the exhaust isolators for wear or damage. INSTALL new isolators as necessary. a.. Damaged exhaust isolator hanger bracket. a.. INSPECT the exhaust system components for damage or broken hangers. INSTALL new components as necessary. CHECK for loose or damaged exhaust hanger brackets or fasteners. TIGHTEN bolts to specification or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Loose or damaged catalytic converter or muffler. a.. MOVE the exhaust system to simulate the bouncing action of the vehicle, checking for exhaust-to-body contact while moving the exhaust system. Using a rubber mallet, TAP on the exhaust components to duplicate the noise concern. Lightly tap on the muffler, then the catalytic converter. Determine if there are loose or broken baffles in the muffler or a loose or broken element in the catalytic converter. REPAIR or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Exhaust grounded to chassis. a.. INSPECT for signs of exhaust components-to-body contact. If necessary, CARRY OUT the Exhaust System Alignment in this section. a.. Drone or clunk type noise - from bottom of vehicle a.. Loose or damaged exhaust isolators. a.. INSPECT exhaust isolators for wear or damage. INSTALL new isolators as necessary. a.. Exhaust grounded to chassis. a.. INSPECT for signs of exhaust components-to-body contact. If necessary, CARRY OUT the Exhaust System Alignment in this section. a.. Whistles, boom, hum or ticking type noise - noise tends to change as engine warms. Noises are often accompanied by exhaust fumes a.. Punctures in the muffler. b.. Broken, loose or missing exhaust manifold fasteners or gaskets. c.. Loose heated oxygen or catalyst monitor sensor. a.. REPAIR as necessary. a.. Exhaust system leak. a.. INSPECT the entire exhaust system for leaks. CHECK for punctures, loose or damaged clamps/fasteners, or broken welds. EXAMINE the chassis for grayish-white or black exhaust soot, which would indicate exhaust leakage at that point. To magnify a small leak, have an assistant hold a rag over the tailpipe outlet, while listening for a leak. REPAIR or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Catalytic converter. a.. MOVE the exhaust system to simulate the bouncing action of the vehicle, checking for exhaust-to-body contact while moving the exhaust system. Using a rubber mallet, TAP on the exhaust components to duplicate the noise concern. Lightly tap on the muffler, then the catalytic converter. Determine if there are loose or broken baffles in the muffler or a loose or broken element in the catalytic converter. REPAIR or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Exhaust muffler/resonator drain hole enlarged due to corrosion. a.. NOTE: Check with vehicle on the ground, not on a hoist. CONFIRM drain holes are noise source. INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Hissing or rushing noise - high frequency sound. Vehicle performance is unaffected a.. Exhaust system. Exhaust flow through pipes. a.. CHECK the exhaust system for leaks. Using a rubber mallet, TAP on the exhaust components to duplicate the noise concern. Lightly tap on the muffler, then the catalytic converter. Determine if there are loose or broken baffles in the muffler or a loose or broken element in the catalytic converter. REPAIR or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Pinging noise - occurs when exhaust system is hot, engine turned off a.. Catalytic converter/exhaust system. a.. Cool down pinging is the exhaust system expanding and contracting during heating and cooling. Condition is normal. a.. Vibration - occurs at idle and at low speeds. Also accompanied by clunk or buzz type noise a.. Loose or damage exhaust isolator. a.. INSPECT the exhaust isolators for wear or damage. INSTALL new isolators as necessary. a.. Loose or damaged exhaust isolator hanger brackets. a.. INSPECT the exhaust isolator hanger brackets for wear or damage. INSTALL or REPAIR as necessary. a.. Damper broken or out of position. a.. CHECK for the correct damper orientation in this section. RELOCATE to correct position and tighten nuts to specification. INSPECT for missing or damaged damper. INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Exhaust system grounded to chassis. a.. CARRY OUT the Exhaust System Alignment in this section. a.. Vehicle has low or no power - vehicle performance complaint a.. Exhaust pipe pinched or crushed. b.. Damaged catalytic converter. c.. Loose obstruction in exhaust. a.. Go To Pinpoint Test A to test for restricted exhaust. a.. Restricted exhaust (possible frozen condensate in muffler). a.. CHECK drain holes for debris. PARK the vehicle inside to thaw. TEST vehicle for normal operation. If concern is still present, Go To Pinpoint Test A. a.. Burning smell - usually occurs at idle, with possible traces of smoke a.. Foreign material caught in exhaust system. b.. Missing heat shields. a.. INSPECT the exhaust system for debris or missing heat shields. REPAIR or INSTALL new components as necessary. a.. Odor - described as a sulfur or rotten egg smell. a.. Catalytic converter. a.. At times, a slight sulfur smell is normal for catalytic converters. The cause is the sulfur content in the gasoline being used. ADVISE customer, no repair required. a.. Rich fuel conditions. b.. Miss-fire conditions. c.. Excessive sulfur content in fuel. a.. REFER to the Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis (PC/ED) manual. a.. Visible rust on surface of exhaust pipes a.. Catalytic converter/exhaust system. a.. Surface rust is a characteristic of materials used on exhaust system. Exposure to heat or road salt may result in surface rust. INSPECT for perforations. If there are no perforations, condition is normal. Pinpoint Test NOTE: The vehicle can have a lack/loss of power, odor, a noise or a "no start" concern. These concerns may be related to the exhaust system. Carry out the following test, if no trouble codes were stored. This test is for diagnosing the source for these conditions. PINPOINT TEST A: RESTRICTED EXHAUST SYSTEM TEST Test Step Result / Action to Take A1 EXHAUST SYSTEM INSPECTION a.. Inspect the exhaust system for damage or deterioration. Look for cracks, punctures, leaks, loose connections, dents or unusual bending. b.. Is the exhaust system OK? Yes GO to A2. No REPAIR or INSTALL any damaged or deteriorated exhaust components. Test the system for normal operation. A2 BACK PRESSURE TEST a.. Position vehicle on a hoist. Refer to Section 100-02. b.. Connect a tachometer. c.. Using the special tool, remove the upstream heated oxygen sensor (HO2S). d.. Install the back pressure gauge. e.. Start the engine and gradually increase the engine speed to 2,000 rpm with the transmission in NEUTRAL. f.. Is the back pressure greater than 27.6 kPa (4 psi)? Yes GO to A3. No No indications of a restriction have been detected. CONDUCT a diagnosis on other suspect systems. CLEAR the DTCs. A3 BACK PRESSURE TEST - CATALYTIC CONVERTER(S) ON, MUFFLER(S) OFF a.. Turn the engine OFF. b.. Disconnect the muffler assembly from the catalytic converter. c.. Repeat the back pressure test. d.. Is the back pressure greater than 27 kPa (4 psi)? Yes The restriction is in the catalytic converter. INSTALL a new catalytic converter. INSPECT the muffler to be sure the catalytic converter debris has not entered the muffler. CLEAR the DTCs. TEST the system for normal operation. No The restriction is in the muffler assembly. INSTALL a new muffler. CLEAR the DTCs. TEST the system for normal operation. Component Tests Exhaust Heat Shields 1.. With the vehicle in NEUTRAL, position it on a hoist. For additional information, refer to Section 100-02. 2.. Inspect the exhaust system for loose or missing heat shields or foreign material trapped between the heat shields and the exhaust system components. 3.. If any heat shields are loose, install worm gear clamps. a.. Use one of the following clamps: FOTZ-5A231-A or W705949-S300. a.. Trim off the excess ear of the worm clamp. 4.. If the heat shields are missing, install new heat shields or exhaust system components as necessary. 5.. If a rattle, noise or buzz condition persists, install a new heat shield. 6.. Lower the vehicle. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >compression was lower and I expected power to be lower. So I ran the car for >a week with virtually no coolant. The overheat light never triggered because >I accidentally broke the sender (it was a bad day). Anyhow, running on teh The hot light won't come on even if the engine is overheated, if it has little or no coolant. > >compression was lower and I expected power to be lower. So I ran the car for > >a week with virtually no coolant. The overheat light never triggered because > >I accidentally broke the sender (it was a bad day). Anyhow, running on teh > > The hot light won't come on even if the engine is overheated, > if it has little or no coolant. Yes, it will. The steam in the coolant system will reach a temperature hot enough to trip the temp sensor on hot. Cory >> >compression was lower and I expected power to be lower. So I ran the car > for [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Cory Not only will the red light go out but if there is a gauge it will go cold. > >> >compression was lower and I expected power to be lower. So I ran the car > > for [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > Not only will the red light go out but if there is a gauge it will go cold. Alright buddy, you keep on believing that. Your theory is nice and dandy, but I speak from real world experience. Time to rework your theory, kid. >> >> >compression was lower and I expected power to be lower. So I ran the > car [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Alright buddy, you keep on believing that. Your theory is nice and dandy, > but I speak from real world experience. Time to rework your theory, kid. Just as others have said it is true. >> >> >compression was lower and I expected power to be lower. So I ran the > car [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Alright buddy, you keep on believing that. Your theory is nice and dandy, > but I speak from real world experience. Time to rework your theory, kid. You speak of VERY little experience. Yes you work on your precious old car, I work in the field and have most likely more years than you are alive. The fact is if you are out of coolant you just lost heat transfer. The combustion chambers over heat while the rest of the block slowly absorbe the heat by contact. Until the heat transfers to the rest of the engine the coolant gauge will most certainly read normal if not cold. The red light will act the same way. If the cooling system is low the light or gauge will read normal to hot back to normal as the air pockets come and go. It is a fact. Many customers continue to drive after they see lots of vapors escape from under the hood and notice the coolant gauge drops. They think it's ok till the car just stops. The engine is now destroyed. > >> >> >compression was lower and I expected power to be lower. So I ran the > > car [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > notice the coolant gauge drops. They think it's ok till the car just stops. The > engine is now destroyed. Nice theory, but the steam in the system from whatever amount of coolant is remaining in the block is enough to heat the sensor enough to read hot. I've seen this on small block Fords and also heard the same from others. That is to say people who have observed a car with the radiator drained trip the overheat light. In my experience a small block Ford (an engine, not a "precious old car", which has been in production well into the '90s). Furthermore, I'd hardly call en engine which has been run until overheated destroyed. Common failures in an engine subjected to such conditions are head gasket damage, ring damage, and possibly bearing damage also on aluminum headed engines the heads will sometimes warp. All of these are fairly cheap fixes and the engine is by no means "destroyed". A simple hone, re-ring and new bearings and possible milling of the heads is usually enough to get the engine running well again. You keep on believing whatever you like, but I sure as heck would never let you touch any of my cars with a 10 foot pole. Your ineptitude is glaringly obvious. Cory ><snip> >, I'd hardly >call en engine which has been run until overheated destroyed. Common >failures in an engine subjected to such conditions are head gasket damage, >ring damage, and possibly bearing damage also on aluminum headed engines the >heads will sometimes warp. For the majority of drivers, destroyed. >All of these are fairly cheap fixes >and the >engine is by no means "destroyed". A simple hone, re-ring and new bearings >and possible milling of the heads is usually enough to get the engine >running well again. With an good used engine running between $500 ~$2000 for most cars and with shop rates running between $50 & $100 Per hour your "cheap fixes can quickly eclipse the market value of the vehicle. Even if the engine rebuild/ "cheaply fixed" is done any reputable mechanic will have to install new belts hoses & fix whatever caused the overheat. Add to that the cost of a rental vehicle what the engine is being "cheaply fixed" and you're starting to talk money. >You keep on believing whatever you like, but I sure as heck would never let >you touch any of my cars with a 10 foot pole. Your ineptitude is glaringly >obvious. > > Cory A simple "milling of the heads, hone, re-ring, new bearings, magna flux, etc, etc, etc." costs money in the world that I live in. Perhaps it's cheaper on the planet that you reside. > ><snip> > >, I'd hardly [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > flux, etc, etc, etc." costs money in the world that I live in. > Perhaps it's cheaper on the planet that you reside. Personally if I am on a tight budget I will just do the minimal amount of work it takes to get the motor running properly again. That may mean not doing a full rebuild (which may not be necessary anyway), or even fully disassembling everything, let alone magnafluxing the block and/or heads (which really wouldn't be necessary unless overboring by a large amount). Rings - $25 Main bearings - $23 Rod bearings - $23 Head gaskets - $28 Intake manifold gasket - $8 Oil pan gasket - $9 Incidentals/misc - $25 -Total: $141 So for under $150 a cheap 'rebuild' can be done. I quoted those prices from Advance and they are for a small block Ford. If you are on a tight budget you may not even need to replace all or even any of the bearings in an engine that has been overheated. Perhaps the rings survived, whihc is not unreasonable. The rings were fine on the 289 which I ran without collant for 500 miles, most of those miles were WOT on the highway doing 75-85 MPH. When I sold the car 7 cylinders read 100 PSI on the dot, and the one that read low (~60 PSI) was low due to a burnt exhaust valve. That valve was burnt when I put the heads on the car. I needed a car right away so I put to gether what I had and other than being low on power form the open chamber ehads it ran quite well. In any case, $150 for a cheapie 'rebuild'. If the heads are warped/not flat they can be resurfaced for $100 or less. $250 for a freshening up that should last a good while is not bad in my opinion. I mean honestly, compared to the potentially several thousand dollar shop work you propose it doesn't seem bad at all. Heck, if you don't wanna spend the money to have the heads resurfaced at a machine shop you can do it yourself with a belt sander (works wonders on exhaust manifols, and will do just fine on heads). These things can be done for cheap. The book value of my car is much more than $250. This stuff may seem a bit overwhelming, but honestly anyone with a little patience and desire to learn can buy a book and rebuild an engine. Sure the average Joe probably couldn't do all this in a weekend if it was his first time, but the point is that an engine which has been overheated is far from destroyed. Something that might destroy an engine is throwing a rod. When that rod breaks loose it can take a lot of things out before it puts a hole in the oil pan. With a destroyed crank, at least one head, possibly block, possibly other parts of the rotating assembly (depending on how it broke, what it hit on the way out, what RPM it let go at, and how quickly the motor was shut off) that is when one may consider an engien destroyed, instead of just broken or in need of repair. In any case, $250 sure beats $2000-$4000 for a new engine. >> >> >> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:06:59 -0500, "Cory Dunkle" > <cdnews@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > Nice theory, but the steam in the system from whatever amount of coolant is > remaining in the block is enough to heat the sensor enough to read hot. How so? Fact is if there is no liquid in the system, no steam. When a hose blows the liquid is pumped out by the pump the rest is boiled off. No theory, basic science. > I've > seen this on small block Fords and also heard the same from others. That is > to say people who have observed a car with the radiator drained trip the > overheat light. Once the area that the sender is screwed into gets hot enough yes. With out coolant, there is a lag. Coolant which is liquid is the heat transfer medium. If the red light comes on or the coolant temp gauge shows hot with out liquid in the system, the engine is now damaged enough to be beyond cost effective to repair, replacement is the cost effective route. > In my experience a small block Ford (an engine, not a "precious old car", > which has been in production well into the '90s). Furthermore, I'd hardly > call en engine which has been run until overheated destroyed. Run with out coolant is destroyed. How many have you taken apart after 10 miles of no coolant at 70 MPH? Even an engine with low coolant will suffer enough damage to be replaced not repaired. The cost of parts, machining and labor would put the repair easily over the cost of a re-man engine. > Common > failures in an engine subjected to such conditions are head gasket damage, > ring damage, and possibly bearing damage also on aluminum headed engines the > heads will sometimes warp. Cracked heads. broken pistons and rings that damage bores, stuck valves that impact the pistons causing piston damage and head damage. That only names a few very high overheat damage. > All of these are fairly cheap fixes and the > engine is by no means "destroyed". A simple hone, re-ring and new bearings > and possible milling of the heads is usually enough to get the engine > running well again. Only to be back in the shop a short time later, you just gave the customer a free engine. Do that enough times you are out of business. Now you also have the problem of a bad rep which has the highest price value because you have no idea how many customers you lost because on that one upset customer. > You keep on believing whatever you like, but I sure as heck would never let > you touch any of my cars with a 10 foot pole. Your ineptitude is glaringly > obvious. Keep reading "popular hot rodding" and other rag's of the like. You will remain as ignorant as you are well into the future. Others in the past has told you in posts that you are very ignorant, I'm doing the same. > Cory > >> >> >> On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 17:06:59 -0500, "Cory Dunkle" > > <cdnews@comcast.net> [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > the liquid is pumped out by the pump the rest is boiled off. No theory, basic > science. So now you're changing the situation. Originally we were talking about my '67 289 which I ran for 500 miles at WOT on the highway with only the small amount of coolant left in the block after draining the radiator and pulling the heads. No leaks in thes ystem, just a very small amount of coolant. > > I've > > seen this on small block Fords and also heard the same from others. That is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Once the area that the sender is screwed into gets hot enough yes. With out > coolant, there is a lag. Coolant which is liquid is the heat transfer medium. I've never argued that point. I thought that was obvious that with only steam in the system vs a liquid there would be a delay to the temp sensor. > If > the red light comes on or the coolant temp gauge shows hot with out liquid in > the system, the engine is now damaged enough to be beyond cost effective to > repair, replacement is the cost effective route. Not necessarily. $250 for a budget 'rebuild' (rings, bearings, resurface heads) could very well do the trick (which is certainly cheaper than $2000-$4000 for a enw engine). In the case of my 289 the rings and bearings were just fine. I had 100 PSI on the dot across 7 cylinders, the one that read 60 PSI was low due to a burnt exhaust valve which was a problem when I put those heads on the motor. The bottom end at that time had over 200,000 miles on it and the original heads only failed when revving the motor to 7 grand one time too many for heads with 200,000 miles and worn valve tips, resulting in a snapped rocker stud. > > In my experience a small block Ford (an engine, not a "precious old car", > > which has been in production well into the '90s). Furthermore, I'd hardly [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > damage to be replaced not repaired. The cost of parts, machining and labor would > put the repair easily over the cost of a re-man engine. My 289 (200,000 miles on that engine) was run with virtually no coolant for 500 miles at WOT, doing 75-85 MPH. That's 6 hours of run time. I never tore into the bottom end, but as I stated it did make 100 PSI on the dot on 7 cylinders and the only reason #5 read 60 PSI is because of a burnt exhaust valve which was present when I swapped the heads. Those 500 miles with hardly any coolant were right after swapping the heads. > > Common > > failures in an engine subjected to such conditions are head gasket damage, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > impact the pistons causing piston damage and head damage. That only names a few > very high overheat damage. Possible, but unlikely. Most engines I've seen that have overheated run just fine. Obviously my 289 was an exception to the rule. I believe most motors would have seized up under such conditions. > > All of these are fairly cheap fixes and the > > engine is by no means "destroyed". A simple hone, re-ring and new bearings [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > problem of a bad rep which has the highest price value because you have no idea > how many customers you lost because on that one upset customer. I'm not running a shop. I'm talking about an individual fixing his own car. If I were running a shop I would recommend a complete disassembly and rebuild if going so far as to do a re-ring and replace the bearings. When paying someone else to do the work the additional cost of machine work and such is relatively small when compared to what one is paying for the 'budget rebuild'. > > You keep on believing whatever you like, but I sure as heck would never let > > you touch any of my cars with a 10 foot pole. Your ineptitude is glaringly [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > as ignorant as you are well into the future. Others in the past has told you in > posts that you are very ignorant, I'm doing the same. I don't read such magazines. I speak from experience. Also, I could take plenty of potshots at you based on what opinions others have expressed about you, but I won't. There's not much point in that. I'm debating/arguing an issue here, not bashing you. Cory |
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