You guys are going to embarrass me.... I didn't think that honesty was
"optional".

A day in my life... hectic as it is.... It isn't rare for me to "pooch" a
decision.... and I have come up with some real stinkers.... Dealer principal
asks "What @sshole thought that up?".... I cannot tell a lie... I only ask
for the opportunity to explain myself and the guidance needed to make things
right.

But when it comes to things that should be a simple moral decision..... no
brainer... The truth doesn't require a memory. And the right thing is all
any of us ever want to have happen to us.

Isn't it a sad statement when people find honesty surprising?

Ah yes, it's the old "I can't win a logical argument here so I'll try
to derail the discussion by switching to meaningless emotional
accusations using loaded words like 'rambling'"

OK well so since all those costs are too high for you to make any money
selling Fords anymore then why don't your dealership simply stop losing
all that money and switch to selling something else, like tractors?  Heh.

Ah yes, don't address the logical points I brought up just drag in another
meaningless emotional side issue.

This wasn't the topic under discussion but as long as we are dragging in
side
issues, well let's just have at it!

I'll go ahead and address this unrelated side issue.  Sure, I'm aware
that service shops get calls all the time from customers looking for free
advice on how to fix their cars.  I've waited in line at the parts counter
at the dealership for my $27.96 special part only available at the
dealership,
with the part number (which I looked up in advance) all ready to go, and
had to have 20 minutes of my life wasted waiting for the moron in front of
me
try to get the parts guy to explain to him how to tear down his cylinder
head
so he can install the $5 piston ring he's "considering" buying, or other
such
nonsense.

Your free to let your management know that if they are telling you to cater
to these moron customers that I for one will never shop at your
establishment
if I can help it.  Why?  Because those time-sucking-leechs out there not
only
suck your time away, they suck my time away while I wait for you to finish
being bled dry by them so you can sell me the part I need to finish the job
I have to do.  Or, so you can perform some service procedure (like
overhauling
a transmission which I am R&Ring, or a wheel alignment, or a tire
mount/dismount)
which requires tooling that is too costly, or too space-consumptive for it
to be
worthwhile for me to buy for my own personal use.

Most likely your management won't give a damn about what I say though
because they would immediatley assume I'd never be a customer for the
$21.99 oil changes, vehicle inspections, brake jobs, or whatever other
gravy maintainence jobs that your shop does to keep the bread on the
table.  And, they'd be right.

OK, now that we both feel better venting about time-wating-idiots, let's
get back to the discussion...

Why not?  I never found any use for a Chiltons better than lining the bottom
of a bird cage.  If Chiltons published in PDF then at least I could use
the CD it came on for a beer coaster which would be slightly more use
as I don't have a bird.

No, no.  Hold the horses there.  There is "information" and there is
"knowledge"

"Information" is what is in those repair manuals.  "knowledge" is what
is used to translate the heiroglyphics in the repair manuals and apply the
information to the actual car sitting there in the shop.

The repair procedure information that is generated during the design,
construction, and warranty period of the car is the free stuff that is
already paid for.  That is what -I- am talking about should be handed
out for free, and what the customer has a moral right to have.

BUT, if the customer does NOT have the knowledge to actually
USE that documentation to fix something on his or her car - well,
Ford or it's dealerships is in NO WAY obligated to sit there and
train them how to fix their car or interpret a vehicle service manual
that is understandable by your average mechanic.

You brought up selling the 6.4 diesels.  Well I will say this.  Those
classes you attended - if they covered "core diesel vehicle" knowledge,
well that core knowledge is available many other places.  You didn't
have to take a class from Ford for that.  You could have got it a lot
cheaper elsewhere, no doubt.  If I ever were to buy a diesel I would
not be attending core diesel classes to service it, because I am
a kinetic, not a visual, learner.  I'd get the core knowledge differently
than from a class.

OTOH if those classes were on the SPECIFICS of the 6.0 diesel,
well then, once more, if you had the diesel core knowledge already,
why then, you should have been able to pick up the 6.0 Ford diesel
factory service manual, and be able to read it and use it to repair.

I am aware that manufacturers like to use classes rather than letting
people self-learn.  After all that is what I did for HP was write those
classes.  There's reasons manufacturers use classes that have nothing
to do with learning.

I have nothing against people learning from taking classes, but do
not make the mistake of assuming the only way to gain knowledge
is to take a class.  Someone had to train the trainer, and someone
had to train the trainer's trainer, and so on and so on.  Work back
along the chain and eventually your going to get to the guy that
wasn't trained by anyone other than himself.

Now, as for -essential- tooling, you mentioned that.  Well let me
elaborate a bit on this.  A lot of times I hear people claim that there
are essential tools to doing a repair that are 'very expensive' and thus
it isn't cost-effective for the shadetree mechanic to do his own work.
There is some truth in this which is why it keeps getting repeated all
the time.  But, it is NOT all black and white and cut and dried like
many people say.  Let me try to illustrate this with an example.

As we are all aware regularly driven vehicles go out of alignment
over a period of years.  You have constant and strong stresses that
over time cause the vehicle body steel and the steel in the suspension
to slightly deform, thus even if you drive perfectly and never hit
a chuckhole or some such, over time toe will go off a few degrees.
You also have bushings and such in there that can deform.

Now, I know all about suspension geometry.  I know I could
set toe with a tape measure and set camber with a carpenters
level.  But I don't do this, because the super-expensive laser
sight alignment benches that the shops spend $50K on do a
more accurate job than I could at home, and they do it
a lot faster too.  They also aren't bothered by a wheel that has
a center cap that sticks out past where a level would hang, or
a garage floor that isn't exactly level, and they can take the
measurement points exactly in line with the axle and so on.  Instead
I go to the shop every couple years and sit twiddling my thumbs
for an hour while it gets aligned.  And if the tech forgets to set
the steering spoke or some such, I can go right back to the shop
and they can do it again.

In addition to this, if I happen to have a tire on the car get
worn down way early, when I go to the tire shop and bitch
for a warranty claim, they are going to likely claim the tire
wore out prematurely due to the car being out of alignment,
and I can wave around the alignment receipts to show them they
are full of BS.

So, this is a story where the "essential tool" people would
claim is a perfect illustration of why it's not worth it for a DIYer
to work on their own car due to tooling cost.

HOWEVER, I'll continue on.  One of my cars is a GM.  One day
it's steering column got sick - the potmetal linkage in the column
to the key snapped.  It's a common problem with the tilt columns.
So common that there is a guy here that runs around and you can call
him and for $50 he will come to where you have your car parked
and zip, zip fix the column.

I DIDN'T call the column guy.  Instead, I bought the SnapOn tool
for $80 (which is only made by SnapOn) the "essential" tool that
is used to take these columns apart and fixed it myself.  On the surface,
it seems like stupidity.  Why spend more money for a repair?  The "essential
tool" argument seems to also be in operation here as well.

Well, this is why as I said it is not always cut-and-dried that the
expense of the essential tool makes it more cost effective to pay the
mechanic to do the work.  Sure, I may have lost $30.  But, if I -had-
called the column guy, I would have had to take time out of my day,
during the day, to wait for him to show up, show him where the car
was, give him access to it, and the whole day that I had scheduled
him I would essentially not have the use of the car as I couldn't
just run out to it and jump into it and drive off somewhere, as he
might show up then.  And if he had a problem and couldn't make it
that day, I would have had to reschedule and it would have tied up
the car again.

By buying the tool I could do the repair at home, in the evening, on
my own time, when I felt like doing it.  Additionally when the linkage
snapped, it of course did it when I was out, so I had to have AAA
tow the car.  If I had towed it to a garage, without the job being
scheduled in advance it would have certainly sat for a few days.  If
I had got the column guy to fix the car at home, I would have had to
take off work for that day to be home waiting for him.

Those intangibles, the ability to schedule the car on my time, and
not having to sit around twiddling my thumbs waiting for a service
guy, are worth far more than the $30 to me.

This is why the "essential tool" making DIY repairs not cost effective
argument is a weak one.

Every service manual in every industry assumes the reader has a core
competence in that industry.  And it has always been this way ever since
technical manuals were invented.  This wasn't what I was talking about
and is yet another side issue your dragging into the discussion.

And once more you completely ignore my prior statements that a fee for
distribution costs is OK, but a fee that views such documentation as
a profit center and gouges the customer for it, is piracy.

It does not cost $2,000.00 to distribute a manual.  And the Internet
and doc formats like PDF have today, reduced distribution costs for
a manual to next to nothing.  Ford likely spends more money on it's
Internet connection paying for spammer's spam to be received by it's
mailservers, then it would by letting anyone download a copy of a service
manual if they wanted it.

Ted

Ah yes, it's the old "I can't win a logical argument here so I'll try
to derail the discussion by switching to meaningless emotional
accusations using loaded words like 'rambling'"

OK well so since all those costs are too high for you to make any money
selling Fords anymore then why don't your dealership simply stop losing
all that money and switch to selling something else, like tractors?  Heh.

Ah yes, don't address the logical points I brought up just drag in another
meaningless emotional side issue.

This wasn't the topic under discussion but as long as we are dragging in
side
issues, well let's just have at it!

I'll go ahead and address this unrelated side issue.  Sure, I'm aware
that service shops get calls all the time from customers looking for free
advice on how to fix their cars.  I've waited in line at the parts counter
at the dealership for my $27.96 special part only available at the
dealership,
with the part number (which I looked up in advance) all ready to go, and
had to have 20 minutes of my life wasted waiting for the moron in front of
me
try to get the parts guy to explain to him how to tear down his cylinder
head
so he can install the $5 piston ring he's "considering" buying, or other
such
nonsense.

Your free to let your management know that if they are telling you to cater
to these moron customers that I for one will never shop at your
establishment
if I can help it.  Why?  Because those time-sucking-leechs out there not
only
suck your time away, they suck my time away while I wait for you to finish
being bled dry by them so you can sell me the part I need to finish the job
I have to do.  Or, so you can perform some service procedure (like
overhauling
a transmission which I am R&Ring, or a wheel alignment, or a tire
mount/dismount)
which requires tooling that is too costly, or too space-consumptive for it
to be
worthwhile for me to buy for my own personal use.

Most likely your management won't give a damn about what I say though
because they would immediatley assume I'd never be a customer for the
$21.99 oil changes, vehicle inspections, brake jobs, or whatever other
gravy maintainence jobs that your shop does to keep the bread on the
table.  And, they'd be right.

OK, now that we both feel better venting about time-wating-idiots, let's
get back to the discussion...

Why not?  I never found any use for a Chiltons better than lining the bottom
of a bird cage.  If Chiltons published in PDF then at least I could use
the CD it came on for a beer coaster which would be slightly more use
as I don't have a bird.

No, no.  Hold the horses there.  There is "information" and there is
"knowledge"

"Information" is what is in those repair manuals.  "knowledge" is what
is used to translate the heiroglyphics in the repair manuals and apply the
information to the actual car sitting there in the shop.

The repair procedure information that is generated during the design,
construction, and warranty period of the car is the free stuff that is
already paid for.  That is what -I- am talking about should be handed
out for free, and what the customer has a moral right to have.

BUT, if the customer does NOT have the knowledge to actually
USE that documentation to fix something on his or her car - well,
Ford or it's dealerships is in NO WAY obligated to sit there and
train them how to fix their car or interpret a vehicle service manual
that is understandable by your average mechanic.

You brought up selling the 6.4 diesels.  Well I will say this.  Those
classes you attended - if they covered "core diesel vehicle" knowledge,
well that core knowledge is available many other places.  You didn't
have to take a class from Ford for that.  You could have got it a lot
cheaper elsewhere, no doubt.  If I ever were to buy a diesel I would
not be attending core diesel classes to service it, because I am
a kinetic, not a visual, learner.  I'd get the core knowledge differently
than from a class.

OTOH if those classes were on the SPECIFICS of the 6.0 diesel,
well then, once more, if you had the diesel core knowledge already,
why then, you should have been able to pick up the 6.0 Ford diesel
factory service manual, and be able to read it and use it to repair.

I am aware that manufacturers like to use classes rather than letting
people self-learn.  After all that is what I did for HP was write those
classes.  There's reasons manufacturers use classes that have nothing
to do with learning.

I have nothing against people learning from taking classes, but do
not make the mistake of assuming the only way to gain knowledge
is to take a class.  Someone had to train the trainer, and someone
had to train the trainer's trainer, and so on and so on.  Work back
along the chain and eventually your going to get to the guy that
wasn't trained by anyone other than himself.

Now, as for -essential- tooling, you mentioned that.  Well let me
elaborate a bit on this.  A lot of times I hear people claim that there
are essential tools to doing a repair that are 'very expensive' and thus
it isn't cost-effective for the shadetree mechanic to do his own work.
There is some truth in this which is why it keeps getting repeated all
the time.  But, it is NOT all black and white and cut and dried like
many people say.  Let me try to illustrate this with an example.

As we are all aware regularly driven vehicles go out of alignment
over a period of years.  You have constant and strong stresses that
over time cause the vehicle body steel and the steel in the suspension
to slightly deform, thus even if you drive perfectly and never hit
a chuckhole or some such, over time toe will go off a few degrees.
You also have bushings and such in there that can deform.

Now, I know all about suspension geometry.  I know I could
set toe with a tape measure and set camber with a carpenters
level.  But I don't do this, because the super-expensive laser
sight alignment benches that the shops spend $50K on do a
more accurate job than I could at home, and they do it
a lot faster too.  They also aren't bothered by a wheel that has
a center cap that sticks out past where a level would hang, or
a garage floor that isn't exactly level, and they can take the
measurement points exactly in line with the axle and so on.  Instead
I go to the shop every couple years and sit twiddling my thumbs
for an hour while it gets aligned.  And if the tech forgets to set
the steering spoke or some such, I can go right back to the shop
and they can do it again.

In addition to this, if I happen to have a tire on the car get
worn down way early, when I go to the tire shop and bitch
for a warranty claim, they are going to likely claim the tire
wore out prematurely due to the car being out of alignment,
and I can wave around the alignment receipts to show them they
are full of BS.

So, this is a story where the "essential tool" people would
claim is a perfect illustration of why it's not worth it for a DIYer
to work on their own car due to tooling cost.

HOWEVER, I'll continue on.  One of my cars is a GM.  One day
it's steering column got sick - the potmetal linkage in the column
to the key snapped.  It's a common problem with the tilt columns.
So common that there is a guy here that runs around and you can call
him and for $50 he will come to where you have your car parked
and zip, zip fix the column.

I DIDN'T call the column guy.  Instead, I bought the SnapOn tool
for $80 (which is only made by SnapOn) the "essential" tool that
is used to take these columns apart and fixed it myself.  On the surface,
it seems like stupidity.  Why spend more money for a repair?  The "essential
tool" argument seems to also be in operation here as well.

Well, this is why as I said it is not always cut-and-dried that the
expense of the essential tool makes it more cost effective to pay the
mechanic to do the work.  Sure, I may have lost $30.  But, if I -had-
called the column guy, I would have had to take time out of my day,
during the day, to wait for him to show up, show him where the car
was, give him access to it, and the whole day that I had scheduled
him I would essentially not have the use of the car as I couldn't
just run out to it and jump into it and drive off somewhere, as he
might show up then.  And if he had a problem and couldn't make it
that day, I would have had to reschedule and it would have tied up
the car again.

By buying the tool I could do the repair at home, in the evening, on
my own time, when I felt like doing it.  Additionally when the linkage
snapped, it of course did it when I was out, so I had to have AAA
tow the car.  If I had towed it to a garage, without the job being
scheduled in advance it would have certainly sat for a few days.  If
I had got the column guy to fix the car at home, I would have had to
take off work for that day to be home waiting for him.

Those intangibles, the ability to schedule the car on my time, and
not having to sit around twiddling my thumbs waiting for a service
guy, are worth far more than the $30 to me.

This is why the "essential tool" making DIY repairs not cost effective
argument is a weak one.

Every service manual in every industry assumes the reader has a core
competence in that industry.  And it has always been this way ever since
technical manuals were invented.  This wasn't what I was talking about
and is yet another side issue your dragging into the discussion.

And once more you completely ignore my prior statements that a fee for
distribution costs is OK, but a fee that views such documentation as
a profit center and gouges the customer for it, is piracy.

It does not cost $2,000.00 to distribute a manual.  And the Internet
and doc formats like PDF have today, reduced distribution costs for
a manual to next to nothing.  Ford likely spends more money on it's
Internet connection paying for spammer's spam to be received by it's
mailservers, then it would by letting anyone download a copy of a service
manual if they wanted it.

Ted