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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / January 2006Toyota, GM, and Ford differences
I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy. The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially helpful to GM. From the Detroit News: Toyota officials say the key to their system is that it taps the knowledge and insights of their team members. They also give them a lot of training and responsibility. At Georgetown, or any Toyota plant, any team member has the power to stop the line by pulling what is called an "andon" cord. The term "andon" is derived from the Japanese word for paper lantern. Once a worker pulls the cord, if the problem is not resolved before the car reaches the next stage of assembly, the line stops. "It may hurt productivity, but it improves quality," said Brian Walters, J.D. Power research director. Toyota encourages employees to pull the cord, despite the line stoppages, to expose problems and address them quickly. In Georgetown, workers reach for their cords 2,500 times a shift, and stoppages amount to 6-8 minutes per shift. But, plant manager Convis said, "at Toyota, it's a problem if you run (the line) at 100 percent. Something isn't adding up, because life isn't (perfect) like that." For the past year and a half, andon cords have hung along the assembly lines at GM's Oshawa plant. But the concept can get muddled in translation. "We used to get 17 andon pulls per day," said Rod McVeigh, a supervisor in the assembly plant. "We're now targeting six a day." But that might encourage workers to look out less for glitches. Dennis Pawley, Chrysler's former manufacturing chief and now a consultant teaching Japanese manufacturing methods, says of the Big Three: "They don't understand that they don't understand." Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud americans that buy GMs in some form.. > I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will > improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy. [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > teaching Japanese manufacturing methods, says of the > Big Three: "They don't understand that they don't understand." > Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud > americans that buy GMs in some form.. Never say Never. Lots of proud Americans are buying Japanese. Especially when they find out their Japanese trucks are made in the U.S., while their American ones are actually made in Canada or Mexico. The only Toyota truck made in the US is their small truck that is assembled in the GM/Toyota plant in California. GM, Ford and Dodge make the vast majority of the trucks they sell in the US, in the US of American parts. mike hunt >> Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud >> americans that buy GMs in some form.. > > Never say Never. Lots of proud Americans are buying Japanese. Especially > when they find out their Japanese trucks are made in the U.S., while their > American ones are actually made in Canada or Mexico. > The only Toyota truck made in the US is their small truck that is > assembled in the GM/Toyota plant in California. GM, Ford and Dodge make > the vast majority of the trucks they sell in the US, in the US of American > parts. > > mike hunt tundras are made in texas.... Perhaps where you live the may come from the new plant, but I didn't know that plant was in production yet. The ones I see on the east coast are assemble in Indiana and show a '5.' mike hunt >> The only Toyota truck made in the US is their small truck that is >> assembled in the GM/Toyota plant in California. GM, Ford and Dodge make [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > tundras are made in texas.... Hum Bullshit! Currently Daimler Chrysler assembles all of their Dodge RAM trucks in Mexico. The so called new "Hemi" engine is also assembled in Mexico... Would you care to check your facts and maybe restate your position? > The only Toyota truck made in the US is their small truck that is > assembled in the GM/Toyota plant in California. GM, Ford and Dodge make [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> when they find out their Japanese trucks are made in the U.S., while >> their American ones are actually made in Canada or Mexico. > Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud > americans that buy GMs in some form.. True. It will be GM that puts GM out of business. Merritt >> Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud >> americans that buy GMs in some form.. > >True. It will be GM that puts GM out of business. > >Merritt you guys ever been to Thailand and saw the amount of toyotas and stuff there in Asia.? The Japaneese car industry outflanks the Americans buy milesa and miles Thers 65,ooo,ooo people in thailand alone and they dont buy fords there or gm hahah >>> Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud >>> americans that buy GMs in some form.. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >miles Thers 65,ooo,ooo people in thailand alone and they dont buy fords there >or gm hahah Is this thread still going? Sheesh. Let's just acknowledge that Deming's principles of Total Quality Management have worked well for Toyota and Honda. Let's also acknowledge that a small engineering budget will affect a business that is heavily reliant upon continuous engineering improvement (Mercedes is presently coming to terms with this). Yes Toyoyo's are the best vehicles ever, all American vehicles are crap. Are we happy now? Let this thread die already................ >Toyota could never put GM out of business. But GM could. >There are too many proud Americans that buy GMs in some form.. Why? GM has no pride in America or Americans and hasn't created even one new net job in the U.S. in 20-30 years. Adam wrote: > Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud > americans that buy GMs in some form.. I agree, Adam. Only GM could put GM out of business--more specifically GM management. And as a proud American, let me say that GM management is coming awfully close with a Total Debt to Equity ratio of a whopping 12 to 1. The way for GM Management to cut down the company's huge, huge 278 billion dollars of debt is to improve quality. Whaddya say we make tomorrow "Andon Pulling Day!" Everybody at Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay attention to quality, not just give it lip service. >Adam wrote: >> Toyota could never put GM out of business. There are too many proud >> americans that buy GMs in some form.. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay >attention to quality, not just give it lip service. Our family Owns GM cars and trucks (as well as several Toyotas) so I don't want to see GM go under - it's bad for parts availability. But they're trying to set a lower target for Quality related line stops? What madness is this? GM is going to put GM out of business all by themselves, simply through pure Dumbth. The troubles that Delphi is going through right now should be recognized as GM's "Canary in a Coal Mine", their 'Clue Phone' ringing. If there's a problem with a car, you stop the line and try to fix it on the line, before giving up and flagging it for an expensive trip to the rework shop. And then you have to analyze what went wrong, and devise a solution to keep it from happening again. They're about to go under if from no other reason than the sweetheart contracts the UAW has squeezed out of them. Maintenance workers "Job Banked" and sitting around half the year, only working when the lines go down for change-overs or emergencies. Find them something useful to do the rest of the time, like the regular maintenance work at the offices and factories. Form a contracting division, and hire them out locally. Or schedule your line change-overs better - schedule the work staggered through the year, and have a traveling crew rotate between the plants. Hotel rooms per-diem and transportation for the workers has to be cheaper than "Job Bank". I predict the only way for GM to remain viable is to go Bankrupt and destroy a bunch of investors and retirees who thought that GM stock was a bedrock. Default on all the under-funded pensions and toss them to the Federal Benefit Guarantee insurance which will destroy all the GM retirees, toss the other retiree benefits like Medical. Rework the current labor contracts to reflect reality. And slash their offerings in the marketplace (toss a nameplate or two overboard) which will destroy a bunch of dealerships. There's no clean way to do this. And if they don't really get the idea on Quality, and fast, even that won't save them. The Domestic makers - GM, Ford and Daimler Chrysler - have gotten far better at building solid cars in the last 10 to 15 years, but they simply can't hold a candle to Toyota or the other Asian marques, where Quality is not just a buzzword. If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but they might be too little, too late. If you lose money on every car, you can't "make it up on volume". And they were trying to make it all by building lots of high-margin SUV's and Trucks - till gas prices spiked and that market died. --<< Bruce >>-- Posted from a.a.Toyota  SignatureBruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer and they line up for repairs just as much as a domestic dealer. > >Adam wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > --<< Bruce >>-- > Posted from a.a.Toyota In alt.autos.toyota razz <razz@mts.net> wrote: > Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your > info they are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a > mechanic at a jap dealer and they line up for repairs just as much > as a domestic dealer. Why would anyone take the word of a top-poster? Learn how to post properly and people will give you more respect. cordially, as always, rm I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements. > I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as > much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements. The data I have seen would indicate Toyota and Honda to have in the order of a half percent problems, Volkswagen about twice that, and some GM models in between. Doesn't seem like much, but they also don't tell much about how these data were obtained and how well the problems were resolved by the manufacturer. The dissatisfaction with GM and Ford seems to go deeper than just this statistic. But I'll agree that the car lineup has not endeared itself to many in the USA, and the union agreements (a parameter related to poor management practices as well) seem to drain the lifeforce from these companies. >> I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as >> much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >USA, and the union agreements (a parameter related to poor management >practices as well) seem to drain the lifeforce from these companies. At the moment GM & Ford's lineups suck. They are trying to make something that isn't American. Economy cars are something that the Japanese do extremely well (good for poor people). Europeans make cars that are wonderfully built for narrow substandard roads (but if you think American cars are unreliable as they age you should look at BMW electronics and auto transmissions as they age......). GM & Ford do fairly well with their cars produced in Canada (Gov't health care lightens the retirement millstone around their neck). Ford and GM for some reason continue avoiding building what Americans want and love. Big, Powerful, Safe & Reliable cars. Instead we're relegated to buying trucks to get what we want. Most amazing of all the "never say die" Bankruptcy king Chrysler is leading the way. 300, Magnum, Charger, etc. One would think that with Ford's success in the new Mustang they could see what needs to be done but..... Don't count the Big 3 out, just recall how Ford turned around in the 1990's. PS When the Police and Cabbies start driving Toyota's and Suzuki's I'll begin to accept that Japanese quality extends beyond "initial quality". Several years ago the NYC Taxi Commission permitted a three year test to judge FWD cars and minivans for suitability as taxis in the city. Taxi companies bought domestic and foreign brands for use as taxis, hoping to same money. Within three months they were showing up in repair shops. Within two years nearly 90% had been taken out of service. At the end of the test only RWD vehicles were allowed to be use as Taxis in NYC.. The average NYC CV Taxi has on 300,000,000 miles on the clock and some are run up to a million miles before being replaced. Many actually start out as former police vehicles..When I still owned my fleet service business Ford had around 80% of the corporate fleet business on the east cost. Our meticulous maintenance records over many years showed that Ford vehicles were the most cost effect to own, long term, based on the cost of acquisition, insurance, maintenance, repair, parts and vehicle replacement costs. No other manufacture even came close in that regard. I was that experience that led me to switch for Lexus V8s I had been buying to the Lincoln LS V8 in 1999. The kicker was I saved nearly enough money switching that I was able to buy my first in a series of Mustang GT convertibles ;) mike hunt > Don't count the Big 3 out, just recall how Ford turned around in the > 1990's. > > PS When the Police and Cabbies start driving Toyota's and Suzuki's > I'll begin to accept that Japanese quality extends beyond "initial > quality". Hi Mike, The problem is that most of us don't care if a car can go a million miles if you keep on replacing parts. Most of us just want cars that will go 100,000 miles without replacing any parts. That is why the imports are winning. > Several years ago the NYC Taxi Commission permitted a three year test to > judge FWD cars and minivans for suitability as taxis in the city. Taxi [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> I'll begin to accept that Japanese quality extends beyond "initial >> quality". The point was those CV hold up better than ANY of the FWD vehicles tested for use in sever Taxi service, foreign or domestic. Any vehicle on the market today can easily run to 200K trouble free, given minimal maintenance. I own a half dozen old cars that are in great condition with anywhere for 110K to 300K on the clock. mike hunt > Hi Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> >> mike hunt >I really don't think it's the quality difference that's hurting them as >much as their crappy car lineup and union agreements. I agree. They intentionally pursued the low-cost, mediocre-car strategy, ceding the "best of class" status to cars like the Accord. >Why would anyone take the word of a top-poster? Hehe. >Learn how to post >properly and people will give you more respect. Snap! Razz, I guess I'm another one of those idiots because I know for a fact that Toyota's don't experience the major problems US cars do. It's the only one I've not had trouble with. I have a friend who owns a transmission business and I've asked him just how many Toyota transmissions he works on. His answer---none, but plenty of Fords, GM's, etc. Facts are Facts and the foreign cars are built better, but then again, I'm just one of those american idiots, but a proud one !!!! > Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they > are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >> --<< Bruce >>-- >>Posted from a.a.Toyota That may be your opinion but certainly not what we saw in my former fleet service business. We serviced thousands of vehicles monthly in our shops locate in six eastern states. No particular brand stands out from the others in dependability. We serviced nearly every brand of vehicle. Corporate fleets generally keep the vehicles they use, as tools in their business, for five years or 300K WOF because of federal corporate tax deprecation laws. We saw little difference among brands in terms of longevity when the vehicles were given the proper maintenance such as we provided. The only real difference among brands is style and the price of accusation, insurance, maintenance and parts. Any vehicle one buys today, domestic or foreign, well easily last to 200K or more is given decent maintenance. As a consumer who keeps their vehicle till it dies, one should be more concerned about the price of the car and its parts than the need for them, since they all need to be repaired at some point. As to the chance of your friend seeing more of particular brand, is like asking someone in the Bronx Zoo if they see more pigeons or penguins. One must remember GM has five times as many vehicles on the road and Ford four times as many as any other brand. Since Toyota arrived in the US in 1958, the past few years is the only time it has sold more than 1,000,000 vehicles annually, while GM and Ford sold more than half of ALL of the up to 19,000,000 vehicles sold annually in the US over the same period. Even today GM and Ford sell more trucks alone than does Toyota, Lexus, and Scion sells cars and trucks combined today. mike hunt > Razz, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and the foreign cars are built better, but then again, I'm just one of > those american idiots, but a proud one !!!! >That may be your opinion Every consider using paragraphs, "Mike". I for one never read those verbose messes you leave. Of course, I know it's all bullshit anyway, coming from you. >That may be your opinion but certainly not what we saw in my former fleet >service business. We serviced thousands of vehicles monthly in our shops >locate in six eastern states. No particular brand stands out from the >others in dependability. We serviced nearly every brand of vehicle. <Big SniP> Just a note of warning to you folks in the GM and Ford groups, and to the new people at alt.autos.toyota : Mike Hunt <Beavis> "Heh heh heh, he said My c.nt!" </Beavis> is our resident nym-shifting Troll. Take everything he says with a pound or two of salt, a pinch simply won't do. In his eyes the Domestic auto makers can do no wrong, but for some unknown reason he hangs out in a Toyota newsgroup haranguing all the Toyota owners... And every single time he tries to trot out "facts" about his background or experience in the car biz, or "facts" about how wonderful domestic cars are, they have been systematically proven to be bigger whoppers than Jon Lovitz and his "liar" sketches on Saturday Night Live. "Yeah, yeah, that's it! That's the ticket..." He's owned "The Biggest Ford Dealer in the state... or "The Biggest Dodge Dealer in..." but he won't give us any real names to verify who he really is. And even the people here who are in the car business in that neck of the country have never heard of him, or anyone with an experience set approaching the one he's pawned off on us. His "facts" shift wildly between each telling because he forgot which lies he told last month. I've given up trying to keep up with them all myself, but someone here was keeping a list. He even tries to invent BS for his multiple screen names, like he's using one of "the many computers in his palatial mansion", or "one of the employee computers" at his sprawling office complex after hours, all set up with different user names, or he's "posting from his Vacation House in Key West Florida", but everything comes from the same Windows home computer running Outlook Express, and a Penn Teledata ptd.net dial-up modem pool connection in Pennsylvania. One time he teased us with a street address (the hundreds block only) for his alleged vacation house in Key West, but someone checked - the street existed, but if there was a house at that hundred-block address it would be about 1/2 mile offshore... Reader Beware. --<< Bruce >>-- SignatureBruce L. Bergman, Woodland Hills (Los Angeles) CA - Desktop Electrician for Westend Electric - CA726700 5737 Kanan Rd. #359, Agoura CA 91301 (818) 889-9545 Spamtrapped address: Remove the python and the invalid, and use a net. I defy you to prove where I ever said I owned any business other than my former fleet service business. I never said I owned a dealership, let alone a Dodge of Ford dealership, that I ever gave the address of my home in Key West, that I ever said domestic can do not wrong, or that Toyota did not make good vehicles, or any of the other fantasies in your post. Every statistical fact I post can be verified by anybody willing to do the search. Only a fool would post their actual address on the web as do you. What will you post next your SS number? Your are weird LOL mike hunt >>That may be your opinion but certainly not what we saw in my former fleet service business. We serviced thousands of vehicles monthly in our shops locate in six eastern states. No particular brand stands out from the others in dependability. We serviced nearly every brand of vehicle. Corporate fleets generally keep the vehicles they use, as tools in their business, for five years or 300K WOF because of federal corporate tax deprecation laws. We saw little difference among brands in terms of longevity when the vehicles were given the proper maintenance such as we provided. The only real difference among brands is style and the price of accusation, insurance, maintenance and parts. Any vehicle one buys today, domestic or foreign, well easily last to 200K or more is given decent maintenance. As a consumer who keeps their vehicle till it dies, one should be more concerned about the price of the car and its parts than the need for them, since they all need to be repaired at some point. As to the chance of your friend seeing more of particular brand, is like asking someone in the Bronx Zoo if they see more pigeons or penguins. One must remember GM has five times as many vehicles on the road and Ford four times as many as any other brand. Since Toyota arrived in the US in 1958, the past few years is the only time it has sold more than 1,000,000 vehicles annually, while GM and Ford sold more than half of ALL of the up to 19,000,000 vehicles sold annually in the US over the same period. Even today GM and Ford sell more trucks alone than does Toyota, Lexus, and Scion sells cars and trucks combined today. mike hunt > Just a note of warning to you folks in the GM and Ford groups, and > to the new people at alt.autos.toyota : [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > --<< Bruce >>-- I do not think it is as much a problem of real quality "deficit" but more the rampant *perception* of bad quality from the buying public, along with GM management, union contract, etc... No, wait, my venture is going back to the dealership yet again tomorrow for another problem with the ABS. It is GM bad quality after all! I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;) mike hunt >I do not think it is as much a problem of real quality "deficit" but more >the rampant *perception* of bad quality from the buying public, along with >GM management, union contract, etc... > > No, wait, my venture is going back to the dealership yet again tomorrow > for another problem with the ABS. It is GM bad quality after all! >I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;) > > mike hunt Or the tranny problems with the Honda Pilot/Acura MDX that cost over $7K to fix.... Lets face it many buyers believe the brand they buy is the best, and the rest are junk, that is why they buy what they buy and more buyers by GM vehicles than any other. Ford and Chrysler follow and Toyota and Honda are forth and firth. Toyota owners in particular love to disparage other brands for some reason, perhaps they want to justify to themselves why they paid so much more to buy a vehicle that is nor better or worse than the others. LOL mike hunt >>I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;) >> >> mike hunt > > Or the tranny problems with the Honda Pilot/Acura MDX that cost over $7K > to fix.... >Lets face it many buyers believe the brand they buy is the best, Almost no one does that, actually. Most settle for the best compromise that they can afford. >and the rest are junk, Idiot. That's not even close to being true. "Not the best choice for me" does not equal "junk". >that is why they buy what they buy and more buyers by GM >vehicles than any other. You can't build a logical argument on such obviously false premises as you embarrassed yourself with above, cretin. GM still sells a lot because of their large "old" customer base and their broad range of products. >Ford and Chrysler follow and Toyota and Honda are >forth and firth. Toyota owners in particular love to disparage other brands >for some reason, Says the proven liar. In my experience, all brands have their fanatics. Toyota owners are certainly no worse than others, especially in this foreign (to Toyota) country. >perhaps they want to justify to themselves why they paid so >much more to buy a vehicle that is nor better or worse than the others. The facts say otherwise, "Mike", and you get that "so much more" back when you resell. LOL! >Lets face it many buyers believe the brand they buy is the best, and the >rest are junk, >Toyota owners in particular love to disparage other brands Actually GM, Ford, and Chrysler ("Chrysler is American!") owners are more likely to insult Toyotas, calling them "rice burners" and thinking Japan is still a Third World country. This is particularly common in areas where a high percentage of Pontiacs are on blocks in the front yard. Go into the various NG and you will discover my observation is right on. Toyota owners are always bashing other brands, particularly domestics. You seldom hear that in other NG. I think Toyota owners are trying to justify to themselves why they paid way to much for a vehicle that in reality no better than any other. LOL mike hunt >>Lets face it many buyers believe the brand they buy is the best, and the >>rest are junk, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > areas where a high percentage of Pontiacs are on blocks in the front > yard. >Go into the various NG and you will discover my observation is right on. If only you weren't a proven idiot and liar, your words might carry some weight, "Mike". Perhaps in you small world but not in the real world. Just look at what is cross posted in the GM and Ford NG from the Toyota NG. No questions about Ford or GM products just anti GM and Ford BS from screwballs like you. . ; ) mike hunt >>Go into the various NG and you will discover my observation is right on. Toyota owners are always bashing other brands, particularly domestics. You seldom hear that in other NG. I think Toyota owners are trying to justify to themselves why they paid way to much for a vehicle that in reality no better than any other. LOL > If only you weren't a proven idiot and liar, your words might carry > some weight, "Mike". >>Actually GM, Ford, and Chrysler ("Chrysler is American!") owners are >>more likely to insult Toyotas, calling them "rice burners" and thinking >>Japan is still a Third World country. This is particularly common in >>areas where a high percentage of Pontiacs are on blocks in the front >>yard. >Go into the various NG and you will discover my observation is right on. I have, and you haven't. Maybe you think too much of yourself, just as you think too much of GM. > I think Toyota owners are trying to justify to themselves why they paid > way to much for a vehicle that in reality no better than any other. LOL Do you really LOL that often? You also can't explain why Toyota owners liked their cars even back when they were cheaper than domestics. Back when they sold even fewer? I owned some of those Toyotas and I got rid of them because they were starting to rust. Get real mike hunt >>>Actually GM, Ford, and Chrysler ("Chrysler is American!") owners are >>>more likely to insult Toyotas, calling them "rice burners" and thinking [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > You also can't explain why Toyota owners liked their cars even back > when they were cheaper than domestics. In alt.autos.toyota Mike Hunter <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote: > Back when they sold even fewer? I owned some of those Toyotas and > I got rid of them because they were starting to rust. Get real Oh, I see. You're a troll. You _like_ to annoy people. It makes you somehow significant to be somebody's pain in the a.s, right? PLONK cordially, as always, rm > You also can't explain why Toyota owners liked their cars even back > when they were cheaper than domestics. Perhaps because they were much cheaper at a time when most people had much less disposable income. Same reason the air cooled VW Beetle gained popularity so fast. > I think Toyota owners are trying to justify > to themselves why they paid way to much for a vehicle that in reality no > better than any other. My recent look at Toyotas indicate similar prices for similar cars. > I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;) > > mike hunt As a matter of fact, I have not heard of the ongoing brake problems with Honda. My son has owned several Hondas since his first in 1990, and I asked him about the issue. He says he has never had a problem with them. What are you referring to? The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up linings and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take note of all the Hondas that you see parked that have wheels, particularly aluminum wheels, that are brown or blacked with brake and rotor dust. ;) mike hunt >> I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;) >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > What are you referring to? > The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up linings > and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take note of all the > Hondas that you see parked that have wheels, particularly aluminum wheels, > that are brown or blacked with brake and rotor dust. ;) > > mike hunt So, what was the deal with the front rotors and pads on the Malibu?... and the three trips to the garage to get the gas guage problem fixed?...and the four trips within a five week period to get the temperature guage problem fixed?.. all in less than 35000 km. Sammy >>>I quess you never heard of Hondas ongoing brake problems have you ;) >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >>What are you referring to? Surely you don't think your vehicle is the only one to has problems? The point is no manufacture makes a perfect vehicle, they all make some that are not up to par, that is why they all offer a warranty. Every manufacture statically makes between 1% to just over 2% that are problematic. Buying a particular brand hopping you will not get on of the 2% is an effort in futility. The odds are far greater one will get one of the 98% that are great vehicles, not matter whose brand in on the hood. mike hunt . >> The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up >> linings and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take note [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >>> >>>What are you referring to? > Surely you don't think your vehicle is the only one to has problems? The > point is no manufacture makes a perfect vehicle, they all make some that are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > mike hunt I'll take the 1% choice, thank you. That will be half the likelihood of difficulties compared to the 2% choice. In addition, when you get that 1% or 2% failure, what does the manufacturer do about it? I don't have any sludging problem with my Toyota 3.0L V6 engine. However, about a year after I'd gotten the vehicle, I received a letter from Toyota warning me that people had reported problems with this. The letter said not to worry about it, maintain the engine normally, show a good-faith effort to keep it up and Toyota would fix any engine problems that came along. A marked contrast to my Ford experience with 3 transmission failures. From Ford, I got a phone call that said "too bad." Not that I believe your figures, anyway. > >> The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up > >> linings and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take note [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > >>> > >>>What are you referring to? Like we believe your stories > > Surely you don't think your vehicle is the only one to has problems? The > > point is no manufacture makes a perfect vehicle, they all make some that [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > >>> > > >>>What are you referring to? Can we assume you are not a math major or even a gambler? LOL PS. Both Toyota and Ford as well as other manufacture had bad experiences with head gaskets after the government instituted a ban on asbestos. Ford replace bad head gaskets for up to eight years or 100K. Toyota would not do so past 60K 5yrs for their customers mike hunt >> Surely you don't think your vehicle is the only one to has problems? The >> point is no manufacture makes a perfect vehicle, they all make some that [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Not that I believe your figures, anyway. >Every manufacture statically makes between 1% to just over 2% that >are problematic. Buying a particular brand hopping you will not get on >of the 2% is an effort in futility. The odds are far greater one will get >one of the 98% that are great vehicles, not matter whose brand in on >the hood. "Statically"? The average number of initial quality defects is around 1-4, and in the first year roughly 10-30% of the cars will have a problem that the owner feels requires attention, with the best rate being about 5%. I don't know what you mean by "problematic" or how you get the 1-2% rate, unless you're referring to outright lemons with gross or high numbers of defects. >The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up linings >and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take note of all the >Hondas that you see parked that have wheels, particularly aluminum wheels, >that are brown or blacked with brake and rotor dust. ;) Idiot. Brake dust on the wheels is NOT a sign of over-heated or inadequate brakes. Many cars use softer pads for better performance and feel - look at any BMW that hasn't had it's wheels recently cleaned. > >The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up linings > >and rotors. Nest time you walk down a busy city street take note of all the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and feel - look at any BMW that hasn't had it's wheels recently > cleaned. True. Look at Volvos as well. My the crap that comes out here in an attempt to be negative about "so called" imports. Really? I never said it was a problem exclusive to Honda or imports. Why then does this condition only occur on the front wheels of certain vehicles, like those mentioned, and why only on the front wheels on vehicles with four wheel discs? LOL mike hunt >> >The tendency for many Hondas to overheat front rotors, that eat up >> >linings [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > My the crap that comes out here > in an attempt to be negative about "so called" imports. >Really? I never said it was a problem exclusive to Honda or imports. Why >then does this condition only occur on the front wheels of certain vehicles, >like those mentioned, and why only on the front wheels on vehicles with four >wheel discs? Stupid troll. I can't believe that even a top-posting retard like yourself is unaware that the front brakes do the vast majority of the work, especially on a FWD car. No kidding genius! Any fool even your should know that is why SOME cars are having problems with front brakes, because the rears are not doing what they were designed to do, and eating up pads and rotors while other are not have that problem. . mike hunt >>Really? I never said it was a problem exclusive to Honda or imports. Why >>then does this condition only occur on the front wheels of certain >>vehicles, >>like those mentioned, and why only on the front wheels on vehicles with >>four >>wheel discs? Bottom posting DZZY, idot, moron, stupid or whatever he is calling himself today wrote > Stupid troll. I can't believe that even a top-posting retard like > yourself is unaware that the front brakes do the vast majority of the > work, especially on a FWD car. > SOME cars are > having problems with front brakes, because the rears are not doing what they > were designed to do, and eating up pads and rotors while other are not have > that problem. . Toyotas Hybrids do not have any brake problems When you want to brake the power is used to generate electricity It is noce of you to points this out Why? You cust did ;) mike hunt >> SOME cars are >> having problems with front brakes, because the rears are not doing what [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > It is noce of you to points this out (top posting corrected) >>>Really? I never said it was a problem exclusive to Honda or imports. Why >>>then does this condition only occur on the front wheels of certain [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >were designed to do, and eating up pads and rotors while other are not have >that problem. . Read what I wrote again. Dust on the front wheels does not indicate a "problem". Different companies use different types of pads; some are dustier than others. > Really? I never said it was a problem exclusive to Honda or imports. Why > then does this condition only occur on the front wheels of certain vehicles, > like those mentioned, and why only on the front wheels on vehicles with four > wheel discs? LOL To educate you Mike it depends on the design of the brake pads and wheel covers. My 4 wheel disk brake Concord leaves only a modest amount of visible pad dust. My wife's 4 wheel disk Sebring leaves much more visible pad dust. One obvious difference in these cars is the much more open wheels on the Sebring which improves cooling of the brakes. >Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they >are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap dealer >and they line up for repairs just as much as a domestic dealer. That's not what internal GM documents from the early 1990s said, the newest ones I know about. Honda, Toyota, and maybe Subaru have made the overall Japanese quality tally better than Ford's or GM's, while Suzuki, Isuzu, and maybe Nissan have been nothing special. Sorry , that's just not what I see at the Toyota dealer near me . Service department is ALWAYS dead . > Another idiot that thinks Jap scrap is better quality. For your info they > are no better than anyone else in quality. I was a mechanic at a jap [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] >> --<< Bruce >>-- >> Posted from a.a.Toyota So is your brain. Like I said, I worked at one and the bays were just as full as anyone else. > Sorry , that's just not what I see at the Toyota dealer near me . Service > department is ALWAYS dead . [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > >> --<< Bruce >>-- > >> Posted from a.a.Toyota > So is your brain. Like I said, I worked at one and the bays were just as > full as anyone else. Hmmm, the average Toyota dealer in the US sells three times as many vehicles as does the average GM dealer, so your observations don't really mean a whole lot. John The is factually incorrect. Perhaps you meant to say the average dealer, that sells Toyota BRAND vehicles sells more vehicles per dealership? Since there are far fewer Toyota brand dealership, than say the average Chevrolet dealer or Buick dealer which would be factually correct. The ratios is nowhere near three times as many however. In the US an average GM dealership sells far more vehicles than an average Toyota MOTOR Company dealerships sell Toyotas, Lexus and Scion vehicles. FMC and Chrysler Motors dealers sell more vehicles, on average, the Toyota Motors dealers, as well. One needs to peruse Toyotas press releases and ads carefully. Toyota missives have a tendency to confuse buyers. The only vehicle that Toyota Motor Company sell in the US, in a comparably high volume is the Camry that sells at a rate over 600K, and some what the Corolla. Nearly all of their other models sell in volumes less the 300K. Toyota for example gives the impression they sell more cars than any other manufacture in the US, which in not factually correct. The sell more cars with the same brand name on the hood but not more cars with more than one brand name on the hood. GM and Ford sell more cars. In addition GM, Ford, and Chrysler to a lesser extent, sell trucks alone in numbers two to three times greater than any cars Toyota sells . mike hunt >> So is your brain. Like I said, I worked at one and the bays were just as >> full as anyone else. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > John What makes you believe that? GM sells far more cars than Toyota, somebody must like the cars they sell. Same with trucks and SUVs. GM sells more of those in two months than Toyota sells in a year. Toyota make good vehicles but apparently a lot of buyer prefer something other than a Toyota since the only sell around 10% of all the vehicles sold in the US ;) mike hunt . > If you don't build cars that people want to buy, it's not the > buyers' fault. The SSR and some newer offerings look interesting, but > they might be too little, too late. > > --<< Bruce >>-- > Posted from a.a.Toyota >What makes you believe that? GM sells far more cars than Toyota, Wrong, idiot, and since yo know it's wrong, that makes you a liar as well. >somebody must like the cars they sell. Some Americans, too stubborn and/or stupid to even consider the foreign competition, yes. Also those for whom mediocrity suits them fine. Please enlighten us. Post the total cars sales for GM and total car sales for Toyota for 2005 so we can see which statement is correct. LOL mike hunt >>What makes you believe that? GM sells far more cars than Toyota, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > foreign competition, yes. Also those for whom mediocrity suits them > fine. >>>What makes you believe that? GM sells far more cars than Toyota, >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Please enlighten us. Post the total cars sales for GM and total car sales >for Toyota for 2005 so we can see which statement is correct. Toyota and GM are pretty much neck-and-neck in total vehecle sales, as many news accounts state. I was fustrated by an inability to find a news source that does not play fast and loose with the terms "cars" (excluding trucks) and "vehicles" (including trucks), but obviously GM's sales are a higher percentage of trucks, making Toyota the maker of the most cars. > >>>What makes you believe that? GM sells far more cars than Toyota, > >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > GM's sales are a higher percentage of trucks, making Toyota the maker > of the most cars. In other words, you couldn't find anyone that agrees with you. Dave Think about what you are writing. There is nothing wrong with setting a goal of fewer quality lapse incidents. It is a good thing. When someone pulls the cord, it means that the system has failed and needs to be fixed. The trick is that you don't want to punish anyone for pulling the cord. Way you do that is you track customer com plaints back to a plant and shift and if the complaint was related to something that could have been spotted make sure it does not happen again. A balancing act. Now, I owned a 2000 Yukon XL for 5 years. It was mostly a good truck, but it did have several failures it should not have in 30,000 miles; two outside mirror failures, electric fuel pump failure, rear winder defogger tab fell off, seat heater control button failure, abs sensor failure. None of these would have been caught in an assembly plant. All but one were component failures caused by (probably) supplier parts that were poorly designed/made. I think GM is just squeezing their suppliers too hard and they are cutting corners. At least in my case. >>Adam wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > --<< Bruce >>-- > Posted from a.a.Toyota Come to think of it, there was one more failure (DOA rear power window). Wow, that's quite a few failures in 5 years. >>Adam wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > --<< Bruce >>-- > Posted from a.a.Toyota > Come to think of it, there was one more failure (DOA rear power window). > Wow, that's quite a few failures in 5 years. Are you happy with it? Do you feel you got a good enough deal, or otherwise got enough value out of it, to justify having it sidelined to fix these problems? If the answer's "yes," then GM should make another sale to you, presuming they build a vehicle that fits your identified needs. If the answer's "no," GM's got a problem to address. > >>Adam wrote: > > [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > > --<< Bruce >>-- > > Posted from a.a.Toyota >Adam wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Oshawa, pull that Andon tomorrow and teach Management they need to pay >attention to quality, not just give it lip service. quality is everywhere in cars its the price and servisce that sells cars .you people really think gm is asleep at the wheel? give me a break please .cars are cars they break so you fix it or not whatever. > I'm cross-posting this in alt.autos.gm with the hope that GM will > improve its quality of manufacturing and avoid bankruptcy. > > The latter half of the following Detroit News excerpt is especially > helpful to GM. People want quality, but not at any price. Every company seems to be quick to brag about their quality control, ISO certifications, and so forth, but not every one makes it work. Quality programs often lead to better REPRODUCIBILITY, but you can continue to manufacture the same level of product. Most programs have a statement calling for continuous improvement of quality too, but it sometimes gets lost in the haze. People may not be willing to pay for quality, but neither are they happy to accept shoddy goods. GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy, and starting with fresh faces and ideas. What makes you think that? GM and Ford still sell for more than any other manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;) mike hunt > GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy, > and starting with fresh faces and ideas. (top posting corrected) >> GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy, >> and starting with fresh faces and ideas. > >What makes you think that? Because it's probably true. If for nothing else, they'll probably declare bankruptcy to get out of their union deals, just like the airlines have had to do. >GM and Ford still sell for more than any other >manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;) Idiot liar. No, they do not. Also, what's the trend of Ford and GM's market share, "Mike"? The tend has been down.but GM and Ford still sell more vehicles than all of Japanese brands combined. The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the vehicle sold in the US, whether you believe that or not makes no difference in that fact. mike hunt > (top posting corrected) > >>GM and Ford still sell for more than any other >>manufacture > > Also, what's the trend of Ford and GM's market share, "Mike"? (top posting corrected) >> (top posting corrected) >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >vehicle sold in the US, whether you believe that or not makes no difference >in that fact. Idiot. You're changing your story to "in the US" and also to include "the three domestics". Smoking that loco weed again eh? LOL mike hunt > (top posting corrected) > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Idiot. You're changing your story to "in the US" and also to include > "the three domestics". > Smoking that loco weed again eh? LOL > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> Idiot. You're changing your story to "in the US" and also to include >> "the three domestics". OK. Most of us don't have a lot of time for our cars to be in the shop any more. That's why I own a Toyota. Sure I could own a GM, but by the time I had 50,000 miles on my old S-10 it was already nickel-and-diming me on repairs, and seemed to be in the shop as much as it was out. Charles of Kankakee You had problem with your GM vehicle therefore all GM vehicles are bad, right? LOL mike hunt >> Smoking that loco weed again eh? LOL >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Charles of Kankakee >OK. Most of us don't have a lot of time for our cars to be in the shop any >more. That's why I own a Toyota. Sure I could own a GM, but by the time I >had 50,000 miles on my old S-10 it was already nickel-and-diming me on >repairs, and seemed to be in the shop as much as it was out. A freind of mine had a GMC Jimmy, and it was a total POS. It was rusting within a couple years. GM's the worst, from what I've seen. >>OK. Most of us don't have a lot of time for our cars to be in the shop any >>more. That's why I own a Toyota. Sure I could own a GM, but by the time I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >A freind of mine had a GMC Jimmy, and it was a total POS. It was >rusting within a couple years. GM's the worst, from what I've seen. And how many Toyotas that were built in the 1980's and early 90's do you see still on the road compared to domestic brands? Personally I think that all manufacturers design and build cars to last no longer than 10 years now before they fall apart. I had a 79' Datsun B-210 that the steering box rotted away from the chassis somewhere around 1988 or so. I was going down the road at the time of failure. I've been skeptical about the build and design of Asian built cars ever since. I do own at present a 97' Hyundai Tiburon with approximately 195,000 miles on it that hasn't given very much trouble, but when there is a problem I have found that it takes a long time to get parts and they are very expensive compared to domestic parts. ...Ron -- 68'RS Camaro 88'Formula 00'GT Mustang >>>OK. Most of us don't have a lot of time for our cars to be in the shop any >>>more. That's why I own a Toyota. Sure I could own a GM, but by the time I [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >88'Formula >00'GT Mustang dear people maintenance and rustproof your cars dont wait until the steering box falls off look at the hood by god it has hinges on it wow look under it and take care of the freakin piece of metal and parts they work better keep looking under the hood. Dont drive till it dies then ask WHY OH WHY ME!!! > The tend has been down.but GM and Ford still sell more vehicles than all of > Japanese brands combined. The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the > vehicle sold in the US, whether you believe that or not makes no difference > in that fact. > > mike hunt So, with all those sales, how's Ford doing? http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/06/business/06ford.html Ford's Debt Is Lowered Two More Steps By MICHELINE MAYNARD Published: January 6, 2006 DEARBORN, Mich., Jan. 5 - Even before Ford Motor introduces the turnaround plan it is calling The Way Forward, Standard & Poor's clearly thinks that it may not be. S.& P. put Ford's debt rating two notches further into junk on Thursday, less than a month after a similar move at General Motors. I'll leave GM's prospects to your imagination. > > (top posting corrected) > > > >>GM and Ford still sell for more than any other > >>manufacture > > > > Also, what's the trend of Ford and GM's market share, "Mike"? >> The tend has been down.but GM and Ford still sell more vehicles than all of >> Japanese brands combined. The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> > >> > Also, what's the trend of Ford and GM's market share, "Mike"? yeah we'll leave a multi billion dollar buisness to you right ... > The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the vehicle sold in the US, > mike hunt Uhh, Hey Mikey, there are actually only 2 domestic automobile manufactures left in the US, Daimler Chrysler is a German company... Doh! >> The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the vehicle sold in the US, >> mike hunt > >Uhh, Hey Mikey, there are actually only 2 domestic automobile manufactures >left in the US, Daimler Chrysler is a German company... Doh! dah Canada has no domestic cars yet we call american cars domestic hahaha ... that means even gm and ford and the damiler c are all foriegn cars right ..? > The tend has been down.but GM and Ford still sell more vehicles than all of > Japanese brands combined. The three domestics sell more the 57% of all the > vehicle sold in the US, whether you believe that or not makes no difference > in that fact. Thank is true but their share is shrinking every year. A long time ago there was a salesman sent from Japan to USA to investigate if they could sell them a car they were making in Japan The telephone connections were not very good The salesman went to USA and showed some people pictures of the car then he went on the phone to headquarters and told them to send one car over and he thought it would be best to put a brandname on the car he had heard people talk about when he showed the picture "Toy auto" After the car came over the car sold immediately and the salesguy phoned back to order another one and the reply at headquarters was "Dat soon?" > What makes you think that? GM and Ford still sell for more than any other > manufacture and more than all of the import brands combined. ;) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > GM and Ford would probably both be better off by declaring bankruptcy, > > and starting with fresh faces and ideas. Doesn't make a damn what they sell, Mike. They are approaching bankruptcy. If they lose money on every car, it is hard to make up the difference on volume. Financial gurus, banks, etc all predict that bankruptcy is the most likely outcome for GM and Ford, and perhaps is their salvation. Lots of 'ifs' your post. The naysayers had Chrysler going out of business in the seventies and Ford in the eighties but they are both still here. LOL mike hunt >> What makes you think that? GM and Ford still sell for more than any > other [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > outcome > for GM and Ford, and perhaps is their salvation. > Lots of 'ifs' your post. The naysayers had Chrysler going out of business in > the seventies and Ford in the eighties but they are both still here. LOL The only reason Chrysler is still around is because the Germans bought them. If Hyundai buys out GM sometime in the next 10 years (not that I expect it to happen, but simply as a thought experiment) will you consider that to mean that GM is "still here"? As businesses GM and Ford are both in trouble right now. Do you remember when Sears was the 800 lb. Gorilla of US retailing? It was not very long ago, and today Sears continues to wander in the wilderness of great businesses. Sears long time nemesis Montgomery Ward is completely gone ... even oil company money couldn't save 'em. John >> Lots of 'ifs' your post. The naysayers had Chrysler going out of business >> in the seventies and Ford in the eighties but they are both still here. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > John You do realize Kmart bought Sears, right? Or did Sears buy K-Mart? Or did a 3rd party buy both? >>> Lots of 'ifs' your post. The naysayers had Chrysler going out of business >>> in the seventies and Ford in the eighties but they are both still here. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >You do realize Kmart bought Sears, right? > Or did Sears buy K-Mart? Or did a 3rd party buy both? > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> >>You do realize Kmart bought Sears, right? Nope, K-Mart bought Sears. Sort of surreal isn't it. > Or did Sears buy K-Mart? Or did a 3rd party buy both? Well, a third party bought K-Mart out of bankrupcy and then bought Sears. Then he renamed the whole thing Sears, just to keep it confusing. John “If you can’t be happy where you are, it’s a cinch you won’t be happy where you ain’t.” | >> Lots of 'ifs' your post. The naysayers had Chrysler going out of business | >> in the seventies and Ford in the eighties but they are both still here. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] | | You do realize Kmart bought Sears, right? Actually, I believe that it was classified as *a merger* with KMart pulling Sears out of the doldrums. Whatever, they are a couple now...And, I thought that Chrysler went into the DC merger in great cash flow shape, and the Germans drained the $$$ in a hurry. SignaturePcolaPhil To <Reply> Remove -SPAMNOT- >>Do you remember when Sears was the 800 lb. Gorilla of US retailing? It >>was not very long ago, and today Sears continues to wander in the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines |
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