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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / January 2006Ford GM Delphi layoffs were planned in July 05 and earlier...
July 23 2005: "More than a month ago, GM informed us that they would be eliminating another 25,000 additional hourly production worker jobs, accompanied by the closure of an unspecified number of production facilities, probably seven. Unless there is aid from Congress, which developed for Chrysler in the 1980s, we will witness the disappearance of one of the most powerful corporations of the 20th century. If GM goes under we will lose a priceless, technologically advanced machine-tool capability. The termination of 25% of operating capacity will terminate the incomes of some 500,000 individuals and suppliers of one form or another, a tribute to free trade and globalization. GM is disassembling its operations in the US and globalizing them. Already 45% of GM’s North American production capacity – some 15 plants – is unused or produces models that generate little or no profit. That means more closings are on the way. Then there is the pension plan that is underfunded by $45 billion and effects 1.2 million pensioners and $270 billion in junk bonds, which could eventually destroy the derivatives market. The carnage at GM has only just begun and will be followed by Ford. Not a pretty picture, but reality as we see it today and in the future. As long as corporate America offshores and outsources, the American economy will continue to collapse." http://www.theinternationalforecaster.com/trainwreck.php?Offset=18 September 03, 2005: "Detroit and Michigan is a zone of the living dead. Detroit represents the deliberately arranged decline of American manufacturing. The dangerous path of offshoring and outsourcing will lead not only to the destruction of the US economic base, but it will take down the rest of the world with it. During the past 55 years Detroit's population has fallen from 1.8 million to 900,000 in round figures. That is extraordinary deindustrialization. Ford's River Rouge plant once employed 100,000. Today, it is 6,000. Since 1970, it has lost 75% of its manufacturing and jobs. Whole areas of the city have been leveled. We see the same happening to a lesser degree in Buffalo, NY; Chicago; Cleveland; Philadelphia and Pittsburgh and generally throughout Indiana, Ohio, Quebec and Ontario in Canada. Today the median household Detroit income is one-third lower than it was 30-years ago. About 50% of homeowners pay 40% or more of their income on the mortgage on their homes. Thirty percent of housing stock is in worse condition than normal and still takes 40% to 50% of income to either finance or pay rent on. The sad story goes on and we do not see it getting any better thanks to free trade and globalization." http://www.theinternationalforecaster.com/trainwreck.php?Offset=17 "Delphi, the nation’s largest auto supplier, is bankrupt. Production and 35,000 high paying American jobs are being moved to China. 12,000 retirees will receive one-third of their pensions from the PBGC, which is from us, the American taxpayer. You can thank General Motors for a failure that was planned 25 years ago. Delphi wants to cut the wages of 35,000 workers by two-thirds, or to $10.00 an hour to compete with China. Delphi employs 185,000 workers worldwide. ***** GM’s future liabilities will increase by $11 billion and in three years or less GM will file bankruptcy and their business will be sold off in segments to vulture investors. (...re-read that again till it sinks in) ***** In order to try to avoid bankruptcy Delphi wanted workers to take wages of $10 to $12 an hour instead of $26 to $30 that they make today. Delphi will also stop paying 4,000 workers who no longer have jobs to do. At the same time the company management increased the severance packages of its top 21 executives. Once again, corporate America cannot help itself. They are consumed with greed. We see a disgusting spectacle of the people at the top taking care of themselves and at the same time demanding extraordinary sacrifices from their hourly workers. Delphi was the 63rd largest US company with annual revenues of $28.62 billion. Our Congress and the American people just don’t get it. There economy is being ripped out from underneath them. Their entire society is being destroyed and no one seems to care. The answer is protective tariffs and quotas and a reversal of our national policy of free trade and globalization." http://www.theinternationalforecaster.com/trainwreck.php?Offset=13 DUMP BUSH AND THE GOP CORPORATE NEOCONS NOW !!! THEY ARE DESTROYING AMERICA FROM WITHOUT AND WITHIN. Thank you for these news articles, however, if you expect the American sheep to be alarmed - it won't happen. Whatever it is that TV advertises the most, they will buy. The outrageous and immoral acts of our elected officials get a slap on the wrist and then things go back to the usual. The U.S. is on a downward spiral. The only thing propping us up is the technology of our military. Enjoy while you can. > July 23 2005: > [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > DUMP BUSH AND THE GOP CORPORATE NEOCONS NOW !!! > THEY ARE DESTROYING AMERICA FROM WITHOUT AND WITHIN. I wouldn't worry at all about Delphi....I'm sure it will all work out ------------------------------------ Mike Mangione http://www.carforums.net > I wouldn't worry at all about Delphi....I'm sure it will all work out Not one motor manufacturer can really do without Delphi, so you are likely correct. It may be restructured and bits sold off though. Huw > > I wouldn't worry at all about Delphi....I'm sure it will all work out > > Not one motor manufacturer can really do without Delphi, so you are likely > correct. > It may be restructured and bits sold off though. > Huw Ah! That's where the rub lies, as Delphi will be re-locating 100% of it's Manfacturing operations to Mexico and retaining only Corporate, Engineering and Sales in the USA. Delphi is yet another "success story" resulting from NAFTA and GATT. It looks like ole Ross Perot was really right back in 1990 when he was talking about that "sucking sound". I just hope Ford, GM and Chrysler can build a car that sells for under $9000 as that may be all that out-of-work Americans can afford in the future....short of a Geely of course.... ;) (Geely = the Next Big Shoe to drop on Detroit's head ?) http://www.geely.com/ >>> I wouldn't worry at all about Delphi....I'm sure it will all work >>> out [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > 100% of it's Manfacturing operations to Mexico and retaining > only Corporate, Engineering and Sales in the USA. Delphi has manufacturing plants in most car manufacturing countries in the world. Most of those plants will continue while some will not. Delphi has approximately 185,000 employees and operates 164 wholly owned manufacturing sites, 41 joint ventures, 53 customer centers and sales offices and 33 technical centers in 38 countries. It is massive. > Delphi is yet another "success story" resulting from NAFTA and GATT. It is a victim of overexpansion and undermanagement combined with high financial gearing. > It looks like ole Ross Perot was really right back in 1990 when he was > talking about that "sucking sound". I just hope Ford, GM and Chrysler > can build a car that sells for under $9000 as that may be all that > out-of-work > Americans can afford in the future....short of a Geely of course.... > ;) So Americans don't believe in competitiveness and hard work any longer. Interesting. Huw The Big 3 need to stop building junk! manufacture something that doesn't need $2k worth of repairs as soon as the warranty expires, they should go 100K with only maintance,tires, and normal ware out items shocks, brakes,belts and hoses. There in the position there in because, thats where they aligned them self,saving a nickle here and a dime there on parts, that are not worth a sh.t! Tom > July 23 2005: > [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > DUMP BUSH AND THE GOP CORPORATE NEOCONS NOW !!! > THEY ARE DESTROYING AMERICA FROM WITHOUT AND WITHIN. The effects that would naturally occur from excessive offshoring would be the people couldnt import anymore since nobody could buy. However, China, Japan hava intelligently hid this effect by purching the bulk of US debt. Are we still laughing at the Japanese Economy? The Insurance premium excuse is tired. Henry Ford build a hospital for cryin out loud. Its one of the biggest groups of hospitals in this area. How could he see this and these Million dollar bonus bozos not? Plus if you have so many employees and 3 big a.s companies why cant you negotiate fair rates? The Rich flogg the working class and the world, and blame it on the poor/defenceless. Whats new? CL > July 23 2005: > [quoted text clipped - 82 lines] > DUMP BUSH AND THE GOP CORPORATE NEOCONS NOW !!! > THEY ARE DESTROYING AMERICA FROM WITHOUT AND WITHIN.  SignatureThank you, CL Gilbert "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16 Victims v 'The Powerful' How classic! As a former GM worker, who escaped from dronesville, I'm of two minds on this. 1. That managers of a company that's losing out in the marketplace, receive 'bonuses', is indeed an abomination of free market forces. - Somewhere there is an antidote to this, but it lies along the path of long-term investment... not statutory law or some sort of ethics investigation. If there's to be ANY governmental action resulting in a damping effect, it SHOULD be the elimination of stock-flipping. Which would greatly reduce selling short and remove the attention from the quarterly and/or monthly bottom line. Our greatest enemy here, is the MBA. 2. The propensity of unions, particularly on the local level, to curry votes and favor of the unproductive slackers and drug-dealers in their orgs is not only jingoist but results in the actions we now see. - That union-members should have some pride in their product, despite a temporary movement in that direction with Ford/UAW, cant be denied. The fact is, however, it simply didnt take... and that was because both lower management and ALL Union management saw it as a 'prop' which could be discarded at the earliest possible moment. Ask your local autoworker how those 'Quality Circles' are doing. The fall-back, of course, is to rely on protectionism... Americans have been indoctrinated to the point where they see only that they cant compete.. that is not true. It's only true that Americans cant compete doing things the old way; IOW, if you dont change, you die*. And yes, in a way... we ARE still laughing at the Japanese economy.. rather we are laughing at those doom-sayers who cried 'wolf' at the idea of the Japanese 'Buying America' in the late eighties. When you LOOK at WHERE the Japanese 'bought up' you see a striking difference compared to where they didnt buy. They bought in the US and Canada, they bought in the UK. Guess which economies are relatively stable, throughout! At a large -SHORT TERM (and a decade IS short term)- cost to the Japanese, BTW! *They chose change over corporate socialism, rather than dying. Taking the short-term view is always tempting, but it's the isolated indidvidual who profits.. not the rest of us... taking the long term view almost always rewards the rest of us. And THAT is the way i look at China.. no matter WHAT you MIGHT think, no matter WHAT the Beijing talking heads spout... the real fact is that Red Army Inc has become "China Inc." Their economic base is built on the dollar; Beijing blustering and saying they might switch to the Euro, which is freaking artificially propped... just as is their own currency, would not be in their interest. > The effects that would naturally occur from excessive offshoring would > be the people couldnt import anymore since nobody could buy. However, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> DUMP BUSH AND THE GOP CORPORATE NEOCONS NOW !!! >> THEY ARE DESTROYING AMERICA FROM WITHOUT AND WITHIN. SignatureYeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price you pay..DEAL with it! > Victims v 'The Powerful' > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > quarterly and/or monthly bottom line. Our greatest enemy here, is the > MBA. Its a cultural problem. Its not the same in Europe. Their management received about 30 times average wage during the time when US management received 300. I agree stock is a problem. management holding stock is supposed to make them care about the company. Unfortunately since they can sell it, they only care about the short term health, and sacrifice the long term. And when folks claim the 'share holders' demand XYZ, typically those same shareholders are management. Perhaps mutual funds is a good way to fight this. The current board makeups of companies is a joke. > 2. The propensity of unions, particularly on the local level, to curry > votes and favor of the unproductive slackers and drug-dealers in their [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > management and ALL Union management saw it as a 'prop' which could be > discarded at the earliest possible moment. I completely disagree with this. The majority of union workers are not as you characterize. Regardless, if they did not have a union, management would trounce them. With the help of the government they are doing it anyway these days. Managements huge bonuses is demoralizing and I think it affects quality as well as production costs. Management is so clearly are the most underperforming part of these companies. But they get rewarded. The system can't hold. > Ask your local autoworker how those 'Quality Circles' are doing. > > The fall-back, of course, is to rely on protectionism... Americans have > been indoctrinated to the point where they see only that they cant > compete.. that is not true. It's only true that Americans cant compete > doing things the old way; IOW, if you dont change, you die*. protectionism doesent even work. it will favor one industry but hurt another. There is import export balance. If we export more cars, some other export of ours will suffer. So we actually compete with ourselves too. This though is buffered by the asians buying our debt. I agree, there needs to be change. Lets try changing on the top this time. > And yes, in a way... we ARE still laughing at the Japanese economy.. > rather we are laughing at those doom-sayers who cried 'wolf' at the idea [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > a decade IS short term)- cost to the Japanese, BTW! *They chose change > over corporate socialism, rather than dying. I agree. Japanese management does not sell stock then switch companies. They tend to stay with the same company forever. Their CEO and uper management tend to be PhDs that climbed the ranks in the company whereas the US tend to be relatives / friends of others above them... When I have given presentations to Japanese comapnies their management fully comprehends every technical aspect for the most part. The US presentations have to contain minimal technical info and majority $$$ savings info. Its just different. > Taking the short-term view is always tempting, but it's the isolated > indidvidual who profits.. not the rest of us... taking the long term view [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > they might switch to the Euro, which is freaking artificially propped... > just as is their own currency, would not be in their interest. Nope. In fact China is managing the value of the Dollar as much as they are managing the value of their own currency. They used to be pegged and I fail to see why folks cried for them to unpegg it. SignatureThank you, CL Gilbert "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16 > I completely disagree with this. The majority of union workers are not > as you characterize. Regardless, if they did not have a union, > management would trounce them. With the help of the government they are > doing it anyway these days. Managements huge bonuses is demoralizing > and I think it affects quality as well as production costs. You claim that management would trounce the auto workers without the union. Why isn't the management at Toyota and Honda trouncing their US autoworkers? According to your theory the Toyota and Honda workers must have horrible working conditions and lousy compensation as they are not unionized in the US. Nothing could be further from the truth. From what I understand it is extremely difficult to get a job in one of their plants. They don't have a lot of turnover, and they get a lot of applicants when positions are available. Toyota lineworkers are some of the highest paid in the industry. This shouldn't be possible operating under your theory. The UAW has been trying to weasel it's way into Toyota and Honda for years...no dice. This myth that the union is the great protector is a pile of crap and the majority of Toyota and Honda workers know it. IMHO the harm the union is causing US autoworkers far outweighs the good... A company like Toyota can't afford to treat their employees badly. If they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force. Look at the numbers, they obviously have one. (*> > You claim that management would trounce the auto workers without the > union. Why isn't the management at Toyota and Honda trouncing their US [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force. Look at > the numbers, they obviously have one. The same is true how they treat their customers They treat their customers like each and everyone is their only one and that is why people are so happy buying their products Not according to J D Powers. Number one in dealer service satisfaction is Lincoln. Lexus in number five and Toyota is even further down on the list below Buick. mike hunt >> A company like Toyota can't afford to treat their employees badly. If >> they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force. Look at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > They treat their customers like each and everyone is their only one and > that is why people are so happy buying their products The ONLY Toyota workers that are well paid and receiving decent benefits are those that work in the union GM/Toyota plant in California. How long do you think American workers, in low wage plants like those of Toyota and Honda, will sit back and watch all of those profit going to Japan tax tree? There is a movement afoot, as we speak, among Honda workers in Ohio to unionize. ;) mike hunt > According to your theory the Toyota and Honda workers must have horrible > working conditions and lousy compensation as they are not unionized in the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the highest paid in the industry. This shouldn't be possible operating > under your theory. > The ONLY Toyota workers that are well paid and receiving decent benefits are > those that work in the union GM/Toyota plant in California. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > mike hunt Is there some new news on this? The Unions have tried to organize Honda's Ohio plants for many years and the past efforts all went down in flames. Such as in 1999: http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/stories/1999/09/13/story7.html Do you have any more recent information showing that something is different now? John The unions failed to gain representation in the Mack plant and the supplier plants around the Mack truck plant in North Carolina at first as well, but they are nearly all represented plant today. NC is a right to work state. My source is a nephew that works in the assembly plant. True past efforts to get enough signatures to allow workers to vote on union representation have fallen short. The latest effort looks more like a vote is likely. Honda, like all who are targeted by unions, spend a lot a company time and effort to convince workers they do not 'want' a union. They threaten to reduce the work force of even shut down and such, but the first thing the company does is improve the wage and benefit structure. The first thing the union tells the workers on the next try is, we got you your last employment package improvement and we are not yet representing you. Can you imagine what we can do for you if we do get to represent you? LOL mike hunt mike hunt >> The ONLY Toyota workers that are well paid and receiving decent benefits >> are those that work in the union GM/Toyota plant in California. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > John >> I completely disagree with this. The majority of union workers are >> not as you characterize. Regardless, if they did not have a union, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > working conditions and lousy compensation as they are not unionized in > the US. Nothing could be further from the truth. I started out by saying it was cultural. Culture is the reason the Asians dont trounce their workers as readily as US companies do. But I'm not sure how long Japanese can do business with and in US without becoming fixated on short term gains as well. > From what I understand it is extremely difficult to get a job in one of > their plants. They don't have a lot of turnover, and they get a lot of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > The UAW has been trying to weasel it's way into Toyota and Honda for > years...no dice. Well I agree with this for the most part, however, these un-unionized plants still pay based on the rates the unionized plants are paying. When the unionized plants drop in wages I expect the non-unionized ones to drop as well. > This myth that the union is the great protector is a pile of crap and > the majority of Toyota and Honda workers know it. IMHO the harm the > union is causing US autoworkers far outweighs the good... Without a union workers will get paid like they work at Walmart. You believe differently? Im not saying the union is such a wonderful thing. Im just saying that without it workers would get paid virtually nothing. These companies have shown that they will pay as little as people are willing to work for. Which is not *wrong*, but you gotta look out for yourself. > A company like Toyota can't afford to treat their employees badly. If > they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force. Look at > the numbers, they obviously have one. What is a "quality work force?" These are the same folks that work at Ford/GM. The plants are all clustered within the same cities. SignatureThank you, CL Gilbert "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16 >> Hawk wrote: > CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote: >> From what I understand it is extremely difficult to get a job in one >> of their plants. They don't have a lot of turnover, and they get a lot [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > When the unionized plants drop in wages I expect the non-unionized ones > to drop as well. Have you ever considered the possibility that the wages that are being paid are higher than the true market can bear? >> This myth that the union is the great protector is a pile of crap and >> the majority of Toyota and Honda workers know it. IMHO the harm the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > have shown that they will pay as little as people are willing to work > for. Which is not *wrong*, but you gotta look out for yourself. The labor market for autoworkers will determine the pay. If there is a shortage of qualified workers in that market, pay will increase. If there is a glut of qualified workers the pay will drop. Common sense. What you have now is the union forcing a certain wage level that can't be sustained by the market. On another point, where is it written in stone that you MUST work in the same job or industry your entire lifetime? It's up to the individual to make changes in their life if they aren't happy with where they are at. If the auto industry pays lousy and offers poor working conditions, do something about it. Don't sit back and think "I have to be an autoworker my entire life so therefore they have to pay me what I WANT." >> A company like Toyota can't afford to treat their employees badly. If >> they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force. Look at >> the numbers, they obviously have one. > > What is a "quality work force?" These are the same folks that work at > Ford/GM. The plants are all clustered within the same cities. I have a neighbor next door that is a total scumbag. Just because he lives in the same neighborhood does not mean that he has the same work ethic or level of marketable skills. The "quality" workers are going to tend to end up with the better quality jobs. There are always exceptions to the rule, but on average it's a fair bet. People that are habitually late or absent are not going to do as well as someone who isn't over the long haul. (*> >>> Hawk wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Have you ever considered the possibility that the wages that are being > paid are higher than the true market can bear? If they cant pay they workers then how can they afford such huge bonuses. Furthermore, if they are actually paying the workers too much, then how can they still afford the huge bonuses? >> Without a union workers will get paid like they work at Walmart. You >> believe differently? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > What you have now is the union forcing a certain wage level that can't > be sustained by the market. union cant force anything. If the market were as you suggest, then we would all work for Walmart wages. If you think thats ok, then we will agree to disagree. > On another point, where is it written in stone that you MUST work in the > same job or industry your entire lifetime? It's up to the individual to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > something about it. Don't sit back and think "I have to be an > autoworker my entire life so therefore they have to pay me what I WANT." I agree with this position. If workers can only work in a single industry, then they can be colluded against and their wages held low. But if those same workers can switch to a seperate industry, considering it will be tougher for seperate industries to collude, then they have much stronger position. It also has baked in job security for when one industry takes a dip. >>> A company like Toyota can't afford to treat their employees badly. >>> If they did they wouldn't be able to field a quality work force. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > (*> A man's character is not a function of his union. SignatureThank you, CL Gilbert "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16 >> Hawk wrote: > CL (dnoyeB) Gilbert wrote: >> The labor market for autoworkers will determine the pay. If there is >> a shortage of qualified workers in that market, pay will increase. If [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would all work for Walmart wages. If you think thats ok, then we will > agree to disagree. The union can stage a strike, walk-out, work slowdown, etc. There is quite a bit of power in that. I don't work for a union and I don't work for government yet I still manage to pull in a decent salary and benefits. If there were any push to unionize my job, I'd fight it vigorously. Why is there always this huge assumption that Wal-mart and Wal-mart level wages are the only possibility without a union? I make a decent living due to the fact that I put in some hard years paying my own way through school and practically starving to improve my situation. I am not unique in doing this by any stretch. The subsequent years of hard work in my entry level jobs paved the way to where I am now. Isn't it reasonable to believe that not all jobs can support a family of four (or more)? I'm a big advocate of personal resposibility. If you don't make enough money to support a bunch of kids and have no plan to improve yourself so that you can, DONT HAVE A BUNCH OF KIDS! If someone wants to be lazy or satisfied with a minimum wage job, don't come complaining to me about how hard it is to support the family while working at Wal-mart. Each and every one of us have the power to decide our own fate. On the other hand, lots of money and material objects are not required to raise a healthy, happy family. It all depends on what a person finds important. Personally I'd pass on the 60" plasma TV in order to help my kid pay for a decent education...etc. I fully acknowledge the fact that the automotive executives have made massive promises that they probably knew in their hearts they couldn't keep. No one side of this thing is guilt free. It still doesn't change my opinion that the union does more harm to the employee and company as a whole. (*> >>> Hawk wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > huge assumption that Wal-mart and Wal-mart level wages are the only > possibility without a union? Thats the direction of the country. That seems to be acceptable by the citizens since they dont fight too hard against it and many are more hostile to unions that underpaying corporations. > I make a decent living due to the fact that I put in some hard years > paying my own way through school and practically starving to improve my > situation. I am not unique in doing this by any stretch. The > subsequent years of hard work in my entry level jobs paved the way to > where I am now. Everyone is not so fortunate. Everyone that is poor is not lazy. Not sure if you ment to imply that or not. > Isn't it reasonable to believe that not all jobs can support a family of > four (or more)? I'm a big advocate of personal resposibility. If you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > working at Wal-mart. Each and every one of us have the power to decide > our own fate. I guess you don't suffer fools. 8hit happens. What to do with these people? If we ignore them they will make our lives less comfortable. > On the other hand, lots of money and material objects are not required > to raise a healthy, happy family. It all depends on what a person finds > important. Personally I'd pass on the 60" plasma TV in order to help my > kid pay for a decent education...etc. Probably should pass on any inch TV. > I fully acknowledge the fact that the automotive executives have made > massive promises that they probably knew in their hearts they couldn't [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (*> Well i am not union, but I know I would not have a 40 hour work week nor benefits without the unions work. I used to get paid for overtime, not anymore, and they seem to expect it. I used to have good health insurance, not anymore, and company is paying less of percentage. Stuff has been going the other way for last ~8 years. I know there is always a fight to get what you are worth. With the open borders we have, wages will continue to drop. People should be free to defend their value in any way they can. Just keep the playing field level and may the best entity win. SignatureThank you, "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16 >>>> Hawk wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > citizens since they dont fight too hard against it and many are more > hostile to unions that underpaying corporations. Perhaps thats what YOU PERCEIVE as the direction of the country, but I don't see that in my part of the country and have not seen data to support it. Of course there can be regional differences. How do you determine a "fair" pay level for a given job. The market has to determine that (ie supply of qualified workers and value of the product being produced) not some arbitrary feeling that a given jobs pay SEEMS too low. The economy is a constantly changing entity. The types, amount, and variety of jobs is constantly in flux. I don't know of any people training to work in a buggy whip factory these days. Sometimes certain industries weaken and/or fade away. There are always new types of jobs being created that offer opportunities in other areas. I think one of the biggest frauds shoved down peoples throats is the notion that everyone on planet earth has to have a college degree. The same people that push that belief are many times the first who will look down their noses at plumbers, electricians, etc. Learning a trade is a valuable skill, and can provide a damn good living. College is not necessarily for everyone, but the idea is pushed that it is. >> I make a decent living due to the fact that I put in some hard years >> paying my own way through school and practically starving to improve [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Everyone is not so fortunate. Everyone that is poor is not lazy. Not > sure if you ment to imply that or not. Of course not all poor people are lazy, but you also have to acknowledge that there are poor people THAT ARE. 100% are not lazy, but on the other hand 100% are not doing the most they can to further themselves. I truly have compassion for people that are in a tough spot due to no fault or poor decision making of their own. For example, someone that is in dire financial condition due to a medical emergency with a family member. I have no problem helping someone like that out, and do so frequently with cash, clothes, and food dontations. The bottom line is that there will always be a portion of the population that is "poor", and most of the time it is by choice because they COULD better themselves but choose not to. There is also a portion of the population with mental health issues, or problems with drugs or alcohol that will always make up a good sized chunk of the poor. I don't see that ever changing. You could hand people in those situations wheelbarrows of cash, and 6 months later they'd be back in the same situtation. >> Isn't it reasonable to believe that not all jobs can support a family >> of four (or more)? I'm a big advocate of personal resposibility. If [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I guess you don't suffer fools. 8hit happens. What to do with these > people? If we ignore them they will make our lives less comfortable. My whole theory is that people have to become uncomfortable enough to spark a change in their lives. If someone is constantly bailing them out, people will just become dependant instead of doing the work themselves. The path of least resistance is a powerful lure. >> I fully acknowledge the fact that the automotive executives have made >> massive promises that they probably knew in their hearts they couldn't [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > defend their value in any way they can. Just keep the playing field > level and may the best entity win. If you feel the company that you are working for is treating you unfairly, then make a change. Go out and look at the job market, I guarantee that if you look hard enough you will find a better alternative. The only thing that will force a company to improve conditions and compensation is the loss of valuable employees that cause them to become uncompetitive in their markets. If there are a lot of people willing to come in and do your job for less, that is the market speaking. If people just sit back and accept poor conditions and/or compensation, what do you expect to happen? The company won't change a bit, because they won't have a compelling business reason to do it. From their perspective, since nobody is quitting they assume people are satisfied with their situation. I know it ain't easy, but nobody ever said it would be. Damn, this has been an out and out ramble. I better take a break. (*> >>>>> Hawk wrote: >>>> [quoted text clipped - 128 lines] > > (*> Yea me too. I can't really disagree with any of that. SignatureThank you, "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16 >>>>>> Hawk wrote: >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 131 lines] > > Yea me too. I can't really disagree with any of that. My old dad used to say to me (he's been dead many years) "Unions are a necessary evil" I guess he could have said "Might is right" Unions are not necessarily evil They are trying to do their best Unfortunately they do not have control anymore The multies do what they please They have no concern for the people and they try to avoid the unions In many multies they are sidestepping the unions by going abroad and in some cases they start new companies on the side and do the dealings with their own companies and the Unions have no say there So the Unions are slowly being starved to death > Unions are not necessarily evil > They are trying to do their best [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > with their own companies and the Unions have no say there > So the Unions are slowly being starved to death A current of anti-unionism is around these days. I live in Detroit which is a union town. But engineers around here like to put down the union all the time. They are a favorite whipping boy. Once this current of anti-unionism is fully established companies can just dump union workers without taking as much heat as they would have otherwise. I recall when the local papers both went on strike and people didnt seem to care. They bought anyway while scabs filled the empty jobs. Its like people are ignorant of the benefits the union brought to us all. i guess people will see what happens once they are gone. So long as we dont get too ignorant and allow laws to be written outlawing unions or outlawing strikes, we can always go back. It may cost us the blood and tears it did the first time though. SignatureThank you, "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16 > A current of anti-unionism is around these days. I live in Detroit > which is a union town. But engineers around here like to put down the > union all the time. They are a favorite whipping boy. Once this > current of anti-unionism is fully established companies can just dump > union workers without taking as much heat as they would have otherwise. That "current" you see has been swirling for decades. You just haven't seen it unless you looked beyond the trades ranks. > I recall when the local papers both went on strike and people didnt seem > to care. They bought anyway while scabs filled the empty jobs. Its > like people are ignorant of the benefits the union brought to us all. And those "scabs" got those newspapers out didn't they? The unions brought benefit to a segment of the workforce and that contribution is undeniable. But, that contribution was a long, long time ago and the unions have become nothing more than a cost burden over the ensuing decades. Take off your union provided glasses and take a look around you at what unions have really cost this country. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net Who told you unions were not good, your boss at McDonalds or WalMart? The first unions were formed in the anthracite coal fields of eastern Pennsylvania in the late 1899s. The miners were tired of working twelve hours a day, six days a week, 51 weeks a year for a dollar a day, while one or two of their fellow miners were being killed on the job every month. that does make you think of China today? Methinks one would be better off looking at the greedy American consumers, who are buying all of the imported products and sending all of their own good paying jobs overseas, to find out what is really going on in our country. mike hunt > And those "scabs" got those newspapers out didn't they? The unions > brought [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > really > cost this country. > Who told you unions were not good, your boss at McDonalds or WalMart? > The first unions were formed in the anthracite coal fields of eastern [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the imported products and sending all of their own good paying jobs > overseas, to find out what is really going on in our country. Very well said. Jane (Proud CAW member) > mike hunt > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> really >> cost this country. > Who told you unions were not good, your boss at McDonalds or WalMart? Nice try Mike, but you missed by a mile. If you believe in unions, then by all means - throw your dues at them, believe all their rhetoric about what they're doing for the American worker today, and watch as your job moves off-shore. Or... are you a union advocate because you're the shop steward at the GM plant? Keep tellin' those folks how good they have it with the good old union representing them Mike. > The > first unions were formed in the anthracite coal fields of eastern > Pennsylvania in the late 1899s. The miners were tired of working twelve > hours a day, six days a week, 51 weeks a year for a dollar a day, while one > or two of their fellow miners were being killed on the job every month. > that does make you think of China today? Still hung up on a point in time where the union actually did serve a purpose and can't get over that can you Mike. Wake up - this isn't 1899. Believe it or not, it's 2006. The entire world is a different place. But then, adapability isn't your strong suit is it Mike. You've demonstrated that you like to just climb up on your pedestal and bray into your bullhorn, regardless of the relevance of what you're saying - perfectly suited to a union cheerleader. > Methinks one would be better off > looking at the greedy American consumers, who are buying all of the imported > products and sending all of their own good paying jobs overseas, to find out > what is really going on in our country. Or at the overbearing cost burdens that the unions have placed on the very hands that fed them. Greed is right Mike. Greed on the part of the unions and their members. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net My respect for what a union can do for a company is based on my personal experience. I formally owed a fleet service business, that I stared with a partner, I had the idea to service fleets and he had the startup money. We started in one state, soon we were operating facilities in three eastern states. When our techs decide to join the Machinist Union my partner would have nothing to do with that. He wanted to sell out. Our partnership agreement gave me first option. I had to mortgage everything I owned and borrow from my friends and relatives but I bought him out and signed a contract with the union. That contract was the best thing that ever happen to my business. It established specific job descriptions for every job in our facilities, the technical requirements and rates of pay for each job class, as well as all of the rules by which we operated. I still had all of the rights of management when it came to production and work scheduling. I could fire any employee who did not do his job up to the abilities of his job description, did not come to work, stared late or left early, was a thief or substance abuser etc. The only right the union had was to make me abide by the contract I signed. The resulting wage agreement set our wages at about $1.50 more than any of the other automotive related business in our areas of operations. Sound bad? Far from it, the job requirement for the techs working in our shops where tops in the industry producing high quality work, which resulted in the best techs wanting to work for us. We had techs that drove as far as fifty miles one way to come to work for us. Soon it became apparent that our shops where far more productive with a huge reduction in follow up work.. Because of our greater productively we were able to lower or shop rate and we began attract more and more corporate and government fleets to our business because we could do a better job more efficiently than their own in house service facilities. Three years later I was operating facilitates in six eastern states. I sold my business five years later for more money than me and my family well ever be able to spend in our lifetimes, thank God for the Machinists Union. mike hunt >> Who told you unions were not good, your boss at McDonalds or WalMart? > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > unions > and their members. >>Who told you unions were not good, your boss at McDonalds or WalMart? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > at the GM plant? Keep tellin' those folks how good they have it with the > good old union representing them Mike. Both sides have rhetoric. Neither can be believed. This does not mean both are valueless. Jobs moving off shore has nothing to do with the union. It has to do with how CEOs want more instantaneous profit. Sure, the union can request to be paied like a China worker, but his people wouldnt be able to buy houses or food, etc. I don't think this can be stopped by union or management really. But suffice it to say my belief is that without the union, the workers would simply get a smaller cut of the profit of the company, nothing more nothing less. >>The >>first unions were formed in the anthracite coal fields of eastern [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > regardless of the relevance of what you're saying - perfectly suited to a > union cheerleader. I will agree on one point. Theoretically OSHA has removed a lot of the relevance of the unions. > Or at the overbearing cost burdens that the unions have placed on the very > hands that fed them. Greed is right Mike. Greed on the part of the unions > and their members. Its an odd belief that you show. You seem to have a take whatever they want you to have approach, rather than a take as much as you can get approach, at least when it comes to working class. Why should working class bow down while management stands up. Nope, let them both fight for what they want. Nothing is free. SignatureThank you, "Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16 The US isn't it's own country anymore. No one seems to know the effects of the national debt of trillions of dollars. It is foreign banks and foreign countries that hold our debt and dictate our policies and our foreign trade balance. Our President is not much more than a puppet. We will stumble along so long as we can borrow more money. Half of the collected income taxes are used to pay the interest on the national debt. Taxpayers hard earned money shipped out of the country. Enjoy while you can. > The effects that would naturally occur from excessive offshoring would be > the people couldnt import anymore since nobody could buy. However, China, [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] >> DUMP BUSH AND THE GOP CORPORATE NEOCONS NOW !!! >> THEY ARE DESTROYING AMERICA FROM WITHOUT AND WITHIN. > The US isn't it's own country anymore. No one seems to know the effects of > the national debt of trillions of dollars. It is foreign banks and foreign [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > used to pay the interest on the national debt. Taxpayers hard earned money > shipped out of the country. Enjoy while you can. I am afraid you are right. I am not optimistic at all. Sooner or later the massive debt we have incurred and the huge trade imbalance has to catch up. The White House claims the "hot job market" will guarantee jobs for all those Ford and GM workers laid off. Guess McDonalds must be expanding. > > The effects that would naturally occur from excessive offshoring would be > > the people couldnt import anymore since nobody could buy. However, China, [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > >> DUMP BUSH AND THE GOP CORPORATE NEOCONS NOW !!! > >> THEY ARE DESTROYING AMERICA FROM WITHOUT AND WITHIN. I was having a conversation with a Ford Field Engineer, back in 2000, about their problem of Taurus engines siezing up within 100 miles of an oil change, and this is what he explained to me... "Let me tell you how it works.... let's say you are the engineer (at Ford) that got put in charge of an instrument panel for an Explorer, or (in this case) the oil pump on a Taurus V6. Your goals (the ones they, as engineers, are rated on) is to shave weight from the part and/or shave cost from the part. Makes sense, right? So, they make things a little thinner, or change to a different, lighter material... whatever it takes to make the "goals." But, what happens is the "re-engineered part" does not start mass failures until a year or two later... Long after the "successful engineer" has been promoted to another departmant for meeting his goals." Yeah that's the way to build 'em. >> The US isn't it's own country anymore. No one seems to know the >> effects of the national debt of trillions of dollars. It is foreign [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > guarantee jobs for all those Ford and GM workers laid off. Guess > McDonalds must be expanding. It seems to me that in the last 15 years the only real growth industry in the UK has been car boot sales. Yet we seem to keep chugging along. Huw > It seems to me that in the last 15 years the only real growth industry in > the UK has been car boot sales. Yet we seem to keep chugging along. Do you mean "boot" in the British sense, as in "boot and bonnet", or in the American sense, as in "Denver Boot"? In either case, I'm lost. >> It seems to me that in the last 15 years the only real growth >> industry in the UK has been car boot sales. Yet we seem to keep >> chugging along. > > Do you mean "boot" in the British sense, as in "boot and bonnet", or > in the American sense, as in "Denver Boot"? In either case, I'm lost. I mean boot as in the trunk of the car. People gather at regular sales where they take unwanted or commercial goods and sell them from the back of the car. It is now a big 'industry' LOL. Huw |
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