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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / February 2006Dear Mr. Ford (a modest proposal)
Dear Mr. Ford: I see you're having tough times lately. It sounds as if you realise this is mostly because people don't want to buy the cars you've got on offer. That new Ford Five Hundred sedan, and its Lincoln and Mercury rebadged versions, are total sales flops for you, which has got to be tough to stomach. But it's not all bad news; your salvation, at least from the product side of the equation, is right in your own backyard, in Australia. I mention this because it's been the case for about 12 years now and you and your predecessors seem not to have noticed it. Bring this car to America, Mr. Ford: http://www.fpv.com.au/index.asp?link_id=2.440 . Definitely bring this high-zoot version, sure, but also bring the more docile Falcons like the ones shown at http://www.ford.com.au/range/falcon/models/ . The 2-doors, the 4-doors, the station wagons, and the utes: http://www.ford.com.au/range/falconute/models . Replace the aging and dangerous Clown Victoria with the Fairlane: http://www.ford.com.au/range/fairlane/models/ , and every cop shop and taxi company will buy your cars because they want to, not because they have to. Pay attention, Mr. Ford, for this is the important part: *Don't f.ck them up*. Bring them intact. Do the bare minimum of changes necessary to comply with North American safety standards: Left-hand driving position, DOT-certified headlights and taillights, sidemarker lights and reflectors, US-spec airbags instead of the safer Australian ones, that kind of thing, sure, but don't downgrade the suspension, brakes, tires or anything else to bring the car in line with what you perceive as "American tastes". Your notions of "American tastes" are obviously in dire need of recalibration, and the machines linked herein are just the tools to do so. Most imperatively, don't replace the world-class 4-litre inline Six engine these cars have with the mediocre V6s you've heretofore foisted on North Americans. Do what is necessary to ensure that quality is built into the cars, not slapped on as an advertising slogan. Bring the cars *intact* from Australia. You don't sell anything I want, Mr. Ford, and you haven't for decades. But do this, Mr. Ford, and I'll buy one. Maybe even two. I bet I'm not alone. --DS > Bring this car to America, Mr. Ford: > http://www.fpv.com.au/index.asp?link_id=2.440 . Definitely bring this > high-zoot version I intended this to be in my letter to Ford should the person who was telling me to put up or shut up in the Mustang NG live up to her end and get me a meaningful contact name and address. If this car were made in a 2 door, I'd buy one right away... as a four door I might have to think about it bit. I would certainly love to drop the drive train into my maverick :) >>Bring this car to America, Mr. Ford: >>http://www.fpv.com.au/index.asp?link_id=2.440 . Definitely bring this [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > door I might have to think about it bit. I would certainly love to drop > the drive train into my maverick :) Better qualify your statements; they may bring it over with a $60K price tag :/ I would seriously consider a GTO if it weren't so expensive... nate  Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel While I dont agree that Ford hasnt produced anything most people might want, I think Mr Stern has hit the nail on the head. Ford is trumpeting the relationship with Volvo engineering as a door opener to the Left Coast crowd. And that's fine and a little overdue. But looking at the Fairlane Line styling against the current mid-size Fusion offering shows where some tastes might split. - If I were buying it would be the Milan, for impression of Front-End styling, alone. - and I like Volvo styling, but I dont like the Fusion. I'll take the 'strayan offering! I understand Ford's dilemma .. just look at those who think Chrysler's styling is good looking. I dont! Surely, though, there's a middle ground. By the way... "Fordvehicles.com" should have a selection intro.... one path would be "Twentysomething Viewer", the other "Adult Viewer" As it is, what an overglitzed, empty of meaningful content, PIECE OF sh.t! > Dear Mr. Ford: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > --DS SignatureYeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price you pay..DEAL with it! . > But looking at the Fairlane Line styling against the current mid-size > Fusion Ooops! Falcon, not Fairlane! SignatureYeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price you pay..DEAL with it! The very first Mercury Milan was sold to the owner of a 2002 Camry. His tranny went out with 62K on the clock. He and he and his car were taken off the interstate to the local Toyota dealership. I was a dual store, Toyota and Lincoln Mercury. The salesman tried to sell him another Camry but after he saw, drove and priced the top of the line Milan, he drove home in the Milan. ;) mike hunt > While I dont agree that Ford hasnt produced anything most people might > want, I think Mr Stern has hit the nail on the head. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > - and I like Volvo styling, but I dont like the Fusion. > I'll take the 'strayan offering! Dang... i should do my research before I jump on the bandwagon! Daniel.... look at those MSRP's on there. The Fairlane runs about 40,000 USD to start. Sure bringing them in here would bring the price down... but THAT much? > Dear Mr. Ford: > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > taxi company will buy your cars because they want to, not because they > have to. SignatureYeh, I'm a Krusty old Geezer, putting up with my 'smartass' is the price you pay..DEAL with it! The styling was decent...but wow! I don't know what the SVT guys have been doing in the US, but this was awesome! I doubt I'd ever buy one, purely on price, but I've dreamed of a Nissan Skyline coming to the US for years. Same for this car, very nice. And what impresses me the most are the (seemingly) small details in the interior that look fabulous. niiiicccce. > The styling was decent...but wow! I don't know what the SVT guys have been > doing in the US, but this was awesome! > I doubt I'd ever buy one, purely on price, but I've dreamed of a Nissan > Skyline coming to the US for years. You've just nailed a big part of Ford's problem: They've painted themselves into the corner with decades of mediocre-to-crappy products, to such a degree that they could offer a brilliantly-engineered, flawlessly-built car, a true delight to drive that would run perfectly for over a decade, and the instant reaction from North Americans would still be "That much?! For a FORD?!!". > You've just nailed a big part of Ford's problem: They've painted > themselves into the corner with decades of mediocre-to-crappy the sad part is, back in the mid 80's they were truly leading the american manufacturers. 5 of the top 10 best sellers were fords, quality was rising rapidly, and products such as the Tarus and then Explorer were ground-breaking and class-leading. Mr. Ford had a LONG way to go when he took over from Ghosn, and I'm both encouraged and excited by what they're doing. Personally, I like the Five Hundred, and I'm just about in lust with the Fusion. I drive a Focus, but if TODAY I had to replace it, it wouldn't be with another Focus... I'd want something a bit more refined. Honestly, the Cobalt is a heck of a car, but I'd probably go for a Mazda 3. That being said, Ford still HAS a long way to go. In a word - unfocused. Right now, they're in the 'fix the product' stage, and that means replacing products into existing niches. You can see from their concepts they're getting ready to expand into new niches or overhaul what they have (the Edge), but there's only so much work a staff can go, and I get the distinct feeling that the SVT staff are idleing right now. Maybe more later on my thoughts for product placement (and, yes, Ford, I would move to detroit for a product planning job and a high 6-figure salary! :)) jp > the sad part is, back in the mid 80's they were truly leading the > american manufacturers. Well...H'm. Leading? I guess, contextually, though objectively it would seem that "least backward" would be more accurate than "most forward". > 5 of the top 10 best sellers were fords McDonald's sells more Big Macs than Ruth's Chris sells steaks. > quality was rising rapidly It could scarcely have gone the other direction; there wasn't much room for it to drop! > Mr. Ford had a LONG way to go when he took over from Ghosn Think you mean Nasser. >> Mr. Ford had a LONG way to go when he took over from Ghosn > > Think you mean Nasser. why, Yes... Yes I did. Maybe *later* Ford will buy out Renault and take over from Ghosn! J | "Daniel J. Stern" wrote in | [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | | J Actually, Mr. Ford has already tried to hire Mr. Ghosn, who wasn't interested. And to get Mr. Ghosn by corporate acquisition, one would also have to buy Nissan. john cline ii, who hopes that helps I'd like to see that Ford Reflex diesl Hybrid for sale. That would get me to buy a new car. Unfortunately, Ford's marketing department will probably not be interested and use the improvements from that car to make slight improvements to a truck or SUV. "john cline ii" <jwciitakeout@earthlink.net> wrote in news:BWnDf.22441$5G.113 @trnddc08: > Actually, Mr. Ford has already tried to hire Mr. Ghosn, who wasn't > interested. And to get Mr. Ghosn by corporate acquisition, one would > also have to buy Nissan. > > john cline ii, who hopes that helps I know he tried to hire Ghosn... but he'd have to buy Renault, not Nissan. R owns N, and G is going to become the head of R... (isn't that effective this year??) JP Does that explain why the Camry is the number one selling car in the US? ;) mike hunt >> the sad part is, back in the mid 80's they were truly leading the >> american manufacturers. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > McDonald's sells more Big Macs than Ruth's Chris sells steaks. >> The styling was decent...but wow! I don't know what the SVT guys have been >> doing in the US, but this was awesome! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >over a decade, and the instant reaction from North Americans would still >be "That much?! For a FORD?!!". Given the number of other nameplates they own, there would seem to be a simple solution to that problem. Decades ago, Ford used to have the occasional display car in the lobby of the NAAO building and Ford World Headquarters. The ones from Australia were stunning then too and I pondered why the hell they were never seen in America. They did not get it then and they won't now so we won't either. Ford did bring over an Aussi car, a two seat convertible and sold it as a Mercury Capri, it was a piece of crap. mike hunt > Decades ago, Ford used to have the occasional display car in the lobby > of the NAAO building and Ford World Headquarters. The ones from > Australia were stunning then too and I pondered why the hell they were > never seen in America. They did not get it then and they won't now so > we won't either. Wasn't any more a piece of crap than any other Ford sold here... just boring, who wants a slow, FWD convertible? nate > Ford did bring over an Aussi car, a two seat convertible and sold it as a > Mercury Capri, it was a piece of crap. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>never seen in America. They did not get it then and they won't now so >>we won't either. Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel "Daniel J. Stern" wrote in part: : Dear Mr. Ford: : [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : rebadged versions, are total sales flops for you, which has got to be : tough to stomach. Uh, there is NO Lincoln version of the Five Hundred on the market at this time. No wonder it's a flop. Sigh. john cline ii, who notes in passing the Zephyr (is that what you were thinking?) JUST came out, and is based on the Mazda6 platform, as is the Fusion/Milan... > : offer. That new Ford Five Hundred sedan, and its Lincoln and Mercury : > rebadged versions, are total sales flops for you, which has got to be : > tough to stomach. > > Uh, there is NO Lincoln version of the Five Hundred on the market at > this time. No wonder it's a flop. > john cline ii, who notes in passing the Zephyr (is that what you were > thinking?) Yeah, that's what I was thinking. They all look pretty much alike to me. >Dear Mr. Ford: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Bring this car to America, Mr. Ford: >http://www.fpv.com.au/index.asp?link_id=2.440 . I guess its too much trouble for them to state whether its a front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, or all wheel drive, which would make all the difference to me. I just bought a Subaru WRX about 6 months ago because not only does it have power, it can put it to the ground, even in the wet. I might even be able to drive it in the snow, too... But no matter - the car would not be a moneymaker here in the US. The vast majority of people don't give a hang about a sports car any more. They buy SUVs. If they don't buy SUVs, then they're buying something really fuel efficient and cheap so that they can drive it most of the time, and be able to hang onto their SUVs for the things that they _need_ SUVs for, including the "status" function. Dave Head >Definitely bring this >high-zoot version, sure, but also bring the more docile Falcons like [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >--DS >>http://www.fpv.com.au/index.asp?link_id=2.440 . > > I guess its too much trouble for them to state whether its a front wheel drive, > rear wheel drive, or all wheel drive, Falcons are RWD. You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but unless you are buying GM products, Ford sells more to vehicles to more buyers of its vehicles then the number of buyers buy the brand you buy. Apparently not as many buyers agree with your assessment. LOL mike hunt > Dear Mr. Ford: > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > --DS > You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but unless you are buying GM > products, Ford sells more to vehicles to more buyers of its vehicles then > the number of buyers buy the brand you buy. Apparently not as many buyers > agree with your assessment. LOL That reads like a GWB quote. :o SignatureJohn C. > You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but unless you are buying GM > products, Ford sells more to vehicles to more buyers of its vehicles My guess is that Ford probably sells 100% of the vehicles it sells to buyers of its vehicles, don't you think? > then > the number of buyers buy the brand you buy. Apparently not as many buyers > agree with your assessment. Don't know what kind of cars Dan buys but my guess is the math is pretty much the same. (Or were you trying to say something different) LOL Yup, LOL > mike hunt > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > > > --DS That did come out a bit convoluted didn't it. ;) The fact is Ford sells more vehicles to more buyers then there are buyers of any other brand, including the one he buys, unless he buys from GM. He is entitled to his opinion but obviously it is that of a minority since there are many buyers who disagree with his assessment of Ford vehicles." mike hunt > My guess is that Ford probably sells 100% of the vehicles it sells to > buyers of its vehicles, don't you think? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yup, LOL > That did come out a bit convoluted didn't it. ;) > > The fact is Ford sells more vehicles to more buyers then there are buyers of > any other brand, including the one he buys, unless he buys from GM. He is > entitled to his opinion but obviously it is that of a minority since there > are many buyers who disagree with his assessment of Ford vehicles." Is that a long way of saying that among the U.S. based manufacturers GM with all of their brands is first in total sales while Ford with it's far fewer brands is second and the Chrysler division of Daimler is third? If so it's been that way for a long time. Of course as we all know Toyota is poised to overtake GM in worldwide sales. You have been reading Toyotas press released I see. Worldwide, perhaps, unless GM starts to use its partners like Suzuki, in low cost production counties, to build the small cars to compete with Toyota in third world countries. In the US that is another story, Toyota is a distant third. GM and Ford sell more trucks alone than Toyota sells cars and trucks combined. The top selling vehicles in the US are not cars in any event, they are trucks from GM, Ford and Chrysler Half of the vehicles sold in the US for the past six years have been trucks and Toyotas truck are only a very small part of total truck sales. Toyota strong suit is cars, yet GM and Ford both sell more cars than Toyota but not with the same brand name on the hood. Although Toyota has the number one selling car in the US, the Camry, Chevrolet sells more cars with the same name on the hood than Toyota.. mike hunt >> That did come out a bit convoluted didn't it. ;) >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > third? If so it's been that way for a long time. Of course as we all > know Toyota is poised to overtake GM in worldwide sales. > You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but unless you are buying GM > products, Ford sells more to vehicles to more buyers of its vehicles then > the number of buyers buy the brand you buy. Apparently not as many buyers > agree with your assessment. LOL You honestly think that Ford's current offerings in the US market are in any way appealing? It is to laugh. I get sleepy every time I drive by a Ford dealership; I have to drive quickly to avoid dozing off. I agree 100% with Daniel's point, the stuff in Australia makes the American Fords look like kiddie cars. Even if they're not your thing, I might have some respect for Ford if they brought some of that product line over. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >> You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but unless you are buying GM >> products, Ford sells more to vehicles to more buyers of its vehicles then >> the number of buyers buy the brand you buy. Apparently not as many buyers >> agree with your assessment. LOL > You honestly think that Ford's current offerings in the US market are in > any way appealing? It is to laugh. I get sleepy every time I drive by > a Ford dealership; I have to drive quickly to avoid dozing off. I agree > 100% with Daniel's point, the stuff in Australia makes the American > Fords look like kiddie cars. Even if they're not your thing, I might > have some respect for Ford if they brought some of that product line over. I've prefered Ford products for a variety of reasons despite their annoying habbits. Since I purchased my '97 mustang new ford has done one thing after another to drive me away. I am not the only person who feels this way. Ford is apparently going to repeat the nonsense with the only car they will be building for the US market that interests me with a price tag within the bounds of what I'll spend, the GT500. (I'd love a GT, but I'd prefer not to be poor with a car I wouldn't dare drive most of the time) Ford appears as if they will treat the GT500 the same way as they have with their other better vehicles and rarify them such that dealers can mark up the price significantly. If this should happen, ford will automatically be crossed off the list. I will buy a vehicle worthy of the additional money, none at all, or something different entirely. I have been buying Mustang GT convertibles, four so far, and I find the price quite reasonable compared to any of it competitors. A 300 HP Mustang GT drive home prices are $5,000 to $7,000 less than Toyotas or Chrysler convertibles with only a V6 which are powering the wrong for a sporty car ;) mike hunt >>> You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but unless you are buying >>> GM [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > automatically be crossed off the list. I will buy a vehicle worthy of the > additional money, none at all, or something different entirely. I'll say it again, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the fact remains no manufacture, except GM comes even close to the number of vehicle sold by Ford, none. My current daily drivers are a 2005 Mustang GT convertible and a 2006 Lincoln Zephyr. Not a day goes by, when I am using them, that somebody does not comment and ask questions about those vehicles . mike hunt >> You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but unless you are buying >> GM products, Ford sells more to vehicles to more buyers of its vehicles [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > nate > I'll say it again, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the fact remains > no manufacture, except GM comes even close to the number of vehicle sold by > Ford, none. GM and Ford are tops in losing money, too. LOL. > My current daily drivers are a 2005 Mustang GT convertible > and a 2006 Lincoln Zephyr. Not a day goes by, when I am using them, that > somebody does not comment and ask questions about those vehicles . > mike hunt Sure. Like: "Why would you buy such a piece of junk?" "Why are most of Fords' cars so ugly and the rest so dated? Can't they get a new idea that doesn't suck?" "Doesn't the legendary low Ford resale value bother you?" "Did I tell you about all the troubles I had with Ford and why I switched to Toyotas?" "Look, the interior of yet another new Ford reminds me of the interior of the '57 Fairlane!" "Hey, look, the Festiva lives again!" "What's that funny noise? That rattle-squeak-rattle sound... Is that normal?" "Is this another one of those Fords that explodes if something hits it from the rear?" "Do you keep a small car in the trunk for backup? I used to own Fords and I'd recommend it." "I see you've been to the gas station again." sincerely, A guy with 5, 6 and 7 year-old Toyotas that are actually worth lots of money and which never go into the dealership except for routine service. > >> You are certainly entitled to you own opinion, but unless you are buying > >> GM products, Ford sells more to vehicles to more buyers of its vehicles [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > replace "fly" with "com" to reply. > > http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel You are free to believe what ever you want and to spend you money wherever you wish but I have not had a problematic car in over 25 years, foreign or domestic. As to resale value the percentage of return on my original investment is better than when I was buying Lexus' V8s I have been spending literally thousand of dollar less ever two years to replace my domestic cars than when I was buying imports. I saved so much switching my luxury car to my domestic that I had nearly enough left over to buy my first Mustang GT convertible in 1999. mike hunt >> I'll say it again, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the fact > remains [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > "Doesn't the legendary low Ford resale value bother you?" >You are free to believe what ever you want and to spend you money wherever >you wish but I have not had a problematic car in over 25 years, foreign or [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >my domestic that I had nearly enough left over to buy my first Mustang GT >convertible in 1999 Hmmm... My Civic is still worth 84% of what I bought it for (based on trade-in value I was offered from the dealer I purchased it from a few days ago) over 2+ years. None of my Fords could hold value like that. Yeah, I spend more for the Honda, but at least it's #1) still running #2) running great #3) able to be sold for 84% of what I initially paid for it. I've paid off the loan faster than it's lost value. Maybe I'm wrong, but that seems like a good purchase to me. I won't buy a Ford again until they either offer a car I fall in love with, or they sell a car with proven resale value. I want to replace this Civic before it's a cashhole, like all my Fords have been from the day they were bought. Dave > You are free to believe what ever you want and to spend you money wherever > you wish but I have not had a problematic car in over 25 years, foreign or [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > mike hunt That will be a real comfort to a colleauge here who's stuck with an LS she doesn't want because she can't stand to let it go for zilch and can't stand the financial loss of keeping it. She hates it for the lack of reliability and Ford for their could-not-care-less attitude. Heck, if she'd asked me before she bought it, I could have warned her. As for your claim that you're saving thousands, I don't believe it. If I owned an '02 Lexus ES300 (Edmunds dealer trade value $19,164) and wanted to trade up to an '06 ES330 (Edmunds TMV $31,269), I'd have to bring $12,105 to complete the purchase. If you owned an '02 Lincoln LS (Edmunds dealer trade value $13,885) and wanted to trade up to an '06 LS (Edmunds TMV $31,040), you'd have to bring $17,155 to complete the purchase. If you're quite sure you're saving lots of money, I'd suggest you consider attending remedial math classes. > >> I'll say it again, everyone is entitled to an opinion, but the fact > > remains [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > "Doesn't the legendary low Ford resale value bother you?" > > You are free to believe what ever you want and to spend you money wherever > > you wish but I have not had a problematic car in over 25 years, foreign or [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > and Ford for their could-not-care-less attitude. Heck, if she'd asked me > before she bought it, I could have warned her. One of my other co-workers bought a Windstar back in the mid-to-late '90s. Just off warranty, the transmission failed. When he had it dragged in to the dealer, they offered him a good deal on a new Windstar, with a decent trade, considering his car wouldn't move on its own. He took it and ended up with a really-late '90s or early '00s Windstar. Just off warranty, it threw a rod. As he related it, Ford bent him over the hood and "repaired" him good. He's gone Asian, now, too. Think he'll ever buy a Ford again? > As for your claim that you're saving thousands, I don't believe it. > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > > > > > "Doesn't the legendary low Ford resale value bother you?" >> > You are free to believe what ever you want and to spend you money > wherever [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > He's gone Asian, now, too. Think he'll ever buy a Ford again? <snip> THAT is why Detroit is on the verge of industrial death, not the only reason of course but a big one. Many, many people have very unpleasant memories of being badly, and repeatedly, burned by Detroit and subsequent buys have been for Toyota, Honda, Nisan, etc. where they have been treated *much* better and have been able to buy cars with better, much better, quality, looks and features. And they do not have to feel that they have been raped by that car company! There is a very, very large abuse factor in the collective customers memory and since the same "usual suspects" are still in charge at GM and Ford I see little hope that they will be able to turn the situation around. It is truly sad to see an icon like the American automobile industry at death's door but boardroom greed and stupidity got it there. So be it. What makes you think import cars do not have numerous problems as well or that their dealers do not suck? The fact is every manufacture today is building good reliable vehicles, the only real difference amount then is style and price. ;) mike hunt >>> > You are free to believe what ever you want and to spend you money >> wherever [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > industry at death's door but boardroom greed and stupidity got it there. > So be it. > What makes you think import cars do not have numerous problems as well or > that their dealers do not suck? The fact is every manufacture today is > building good reliable vehicles, the only real difference amount then is > style and price. ;) ...and fit and finish, economy, reliability, dealer service... if you can tell me that all cars are the same in those respects with a straight face, I recommend that you start playing poker professionally. There is a HUGE difference between the way you are treated at, say, a VW dealer and an Infiniti dealer, just to mention an example that I'm personally familiar with. Buyers are willing to put up with a lot more problems if the dealer treats them right and takes care of them in a timely, hassle-free manner. Therefore while an import brand may not have any fewer issues, if a consumer has been burned by an American dealer and then has a few good experiences with the dealership where he bought the new import to replace his American car, that makes a lasting impression. nate No they are not the same but the differences among them are minuscule. The point I was trying to make is NO manufacture foreign or domestic builds a perfect vehicle, that is why they all have a warranty. No dealer network, foreign or domestic has a lock on perfect dealerships. I'm tired of hearing in these NG how great import brands are and how bad are the domestics. That simply is a fallacy. When I still owned my fleet service business we serviced thousands of vehicle of just about every brand you can think of every month. Guess what, they all have problems on occasion. None of the brands one can buy today stands out among the rest. The only real difference among them is style and price. No mater where one looks for statistics that is obvious. Rating brands of vehicles on a 'list' will always show one on top, and another on the bottom, but the difference among brands is statistically insignificant. To say I'm never going to by brand 'X' again because I had a bad one, is just as ridiculous as saying others should by brand 'Y' because the one I owned was great.. The best one can hope for, when purchasing any brand, is that the one they buy is not one of the less than 2% that every manufacture build that is problematic. The odd are far more likely you will get one of any brands 98% that are not problematic. Any brand one can buy today will easily go to 200K or more if given the proper preventive maintenance. In the real world a buyer should be more concerned about the drive home price, insurance cost and the cost of replacing the vehicle, among brands rather than worrying about the brand. There is no doubt that at some point your vehicle will need to be repaired if you keep it long enough, so you should look at the difference in parts prices and the shop rates as well . There is no reason to pay a premium price to buy a particular brand hoping that you will get one of the 98%, odds are you will. If you want to go by statistics, go by the most accurate statistic of them all, total sales numbers. There is a reason the Camry is the number one selling car and the F150 is the best selling vehicle. Buyers will not continue to spend their hard earned money year after year on vehicles that for them are problematic. Look on any dealers lot, foreign or domestic, and you will see vehicles from other brands, foreign or domestic, sitting on their lots that the former owners no longer wanted for some reason. We keep hearing how GM and Ford market share is eroding but the fact is the market is growing almost every year and both GM and Ford are selling more vehicles today than at any time in their history. When GM had around 50% of the market there were only 8,000,000 vehicles sold in the US by around five manufactures.. Today the market is anywhere from seventeen million to nineteen million vehicles annually from over thirty brands and over 175 models. The fact is GM and Ford sell far more than any other brand year after year, period. More buyer must like what the have to offer than any other manufacture. mike hunt >> What makes you think import cars do not have numerous problems as well or >> that their dealers do not suck? The fact is every manufacture today is >> building good reliable vehicles, the only real difference amount then is >> style and price. ;) <snip> > Buyers are willing to put up with a lot more problems if the dealer > treats them right and takes care of them in a timely, hassle-free [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > nate > No they are not the same but the differences among them are minuscule. Simply not true. The difference in interior material quality, design, and fit and finish between my '02 VW GTI and my '05 Impala is significant. The GTI had split folding rear seats. The Impala does not. (this is important to me, as the Impala is a company provided vehicle, and I might occasionally have a need to transport large pieces of equipment as part of my job...) The GTI had heated leather seats, heated mirrors, a rear wiper/washer, and a sunroof. The Impala does not. The GTI handled reasonably well and had awesome acceleration. The Impala does not. In fact, the only things the Impala has that the GTI did not are rear doors, a big trunk, and a (crappy) automatic transaxle. Guess which car costs more... > The > point I was trying to make is NO manufacture foreign or domestic builds a > perfect vehicle, that is why they all have a warranty. No dealer network, > foreign or domestic has a lock on perfect dealerships. This is very true, but the reputation of American (and to be fair, VW) dealerships is crappy service and a consumer-unfriendly attitude. Compare and contrast with the kissing your a.s gets at an Infiniti or Lexus dealership, of course those cars have great reputations, people forget about the little problems they've had with them because the dealer gave them a loaner car and fixed the issue for free, with no hassles, and apologizing the whole time. > I'm tired of hearing in these NG how great import brands are and how bad are > the domestics. That simply is a fallacy. When I still owned my fleet > service business we serviced thousands of vehicle of just about every brand > you can think of every month. Guess what, they all have problems on > occasion. Sure. But if you were involved with fleet service, you probably only dealt with dealers for warranty work, and even the crappy ones didn't give you the fecal matter that they would give to Joe Average, because they wanted you to buy more cars from them. The average guy, they know he's not buying anything any time soon, he just bought a new car. > None of the brands one can buy today stands out among the rest. > The only real difference among them is style and price. and reliability, performance, handling, and dealer service... especially dealer service... nate > This is very true, but the reputation of American (and to be fair, VW) > dealerships is crappy service and a consumer-unfriendly attitude. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > dealer gave them a loaner car and fixed the issue for free, with no > hassles, and apologizing the whole time. Sorry... did you seriously lump all American dealerships, such as ford, pontiac, mercury, chevy, dodge, plymouth (defunct), chrysler, etc. and compare them straight faced to Lexus and Infiniti?? Just not a realistic comparison. J > > This is very true, but the reputation of American (and to be fair, VW) > > dealerships is crappy service and a consumer-unfriendly attitude. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Just not a realistic comparison. Well, it isn't a realistic comparison but Ford, Pontiac, Mercury, etc, would LIKE you to believe their dealerships will treat you that special. Remember the much-ballyhooed Chrysler 5-Star dealership program? I don't know if that program's still going but the nearest Chrysler dealer was a 5-Star dealer and they were a bunch of morons who'd cut their own throats if it would help them screw the customer. I went in to look a used car and the salesman made me an offer that was frankly illegal. Service at the Toyota dealer I use isn't exactly cheap but they do treat you like visiting royalty whenn you show up with your Toyota. And they offer good, solid low prices with no switcheroos, no add-ons and no shenanigans. > J Personal opinions aside, the number one rated dealerships for customer service, according to J D Powers, is Lincoln. Toyota dealerships are way down on their list. ;) mike hunt > Well, it isn't a realistic comparison but Ford, Pontiac, Mercury, etc, > would > LIKE you to believe their dealerships will treat you that special. > Service at the Toyota dealer I use isn't exactly cheap but they do treat > you > like visiting royalty whenn you show up with your Toyota. And they offer > good, solid low prices with no switcheroos, no add-ons and no shenanigans. > >> J > Personal opinions aside, the number one rated dealerships for customer > service, according to J D Powers, is Lincoln. Toyota dealerships are > way down on their list. ;) > > mike hunt I just researched that, and it was quite suprising. Lincoln, Caddy, Saturn and then Lexus. Toyota was WELL below average, while honda and chevy are in a basic tie. Ford was just slightly below the average ranking. of course, to be fair, the issue we were discussing was to compare the chevy, fords, and dodges dealers of the world with the Lexus and infiniti dealers of the world. simply put, a well run luxury dealership should easily be able to provide better service to each customer. Second, let's remember that the nationwide ranking of a brand of dealer has nothing to do with how good the dealership in your area is. Ford is listed slightly below average, but we have a ford dealership nearby which is simply the best dealer of any brand I've ever been to. Dale Jarrett Ford in indian trail... it's just that good. There's a nearby chevy dealer that is probably the worst dealership i've ever tried to deal with. rude, with no training for their salespeople. In short, don't go by the rankings by jd power or similar... visit your local dealer and make your own decision. JP >In short, don't go by the rankings by jd power or similar... visit your >local dealer and make your own decision. Exactly. I went to two different Nissan dealers, and they were polar opposites. One would have done almost anything to get me to buy a car, while the other insulted me because I wasn't interested in a Sentra. Guess which I bought a car from? Dave You are correct any 'list' by itself is subjective, it is the ONE that effects you that is important. The fact is everything on the 'list' could be bad, or good, the list would simply show which were worse, or better the case may be, hardly an indictor of what might effect you. Many will point to a their brand of vehicle as a 'better' than another, when in fact ALL manufactures today are building vehicles that are of good quality and reliable, but one will be 'listed' on the top and another must be one the bottom. Whether the one you buy is one of the 2% that are bad, or one the 98% that are good, in the chance you take when you drive it home Why some are willing to pay a 20% to 30% premium to buy a particular brand when the odds are they will get one of any manufactures 98%, is silly. ;) mike hunt >> Personal opinions aside, the number one rated dealerships for customer >> service, according to J D Powers, is Lincoln. Toyota dealerships are [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > JP > You are correct any 'list' by itself is subjective, it is the ONE that > effects you that is important. The fact is everything on the 'list' [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > that are of good quality and reliable, but one will be 'listed' on the > top and another must be one the bottom. You're absolutely correct on a good part of this. It's human nature, I believe based on our competitive drive, and that's based on our fight- or-flight response... but it' our nature to like lists to see and compare where our choices fall. In many ways choosing 1 brand over another for individual reasons, like reliability, may be statistically irrevelant, but JD Power is never going to come out and say that "Well, actually ALL cars are good now and you can pick what you want and feel confidient!"..No, they have to cut and parce and piece together to come up with a list. Regardless, whether all manufacturers are building good quality and reliable products, it is still not just a 'toss up'. What I mean is that I think we will see much more where styling, interior design and the quality of the 'environment' of the car will become increasing important. Ford might make a great product, but if you hate the design or quality of materials they use in the dash, seats, etc.... you might be happier elsewhere. > > This is very true, but the reputation of American (and to be fair, VW) > > dealerships is crappy service and a consumer-unfriendly attitude. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Just not a realistic comparison. That's the point, there is no comparison. People are willing to spend more money if they can realistically expect to be treated better. nate > I'm tired of hearing in these NG how great import brands are and how bad are > the domestics. That simply is a fallacy. It may be a fallacy in many cases, but the perception is that Jap cars are more reliable and of better quality. That helps a lot when you want to sell your used Honda or Acura or Toyota. Besides, lots of GM and Ford cars are uninspired and boring. On the contrary, most European cars and some Japanese cars (Subarus, Infinitis, etc) are quite desirable. >> I'm tired of hearing in these NG how great import brands are and how bad are >> the domestics. That simply is a fallacy. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Besides, lots of GM and Ford cars are uninspired and boring. On the contrary, >most European cars and some Japanese cars (Subarus, Infinitis, etc) are quite desirable. Oooh ooh! Don't forget that my Honda has devalued less in 3 years than my Fords did from driving off the lot. Dave Bur alas in three years the domestics return a higher percentage of their drive home price than does you Honda. ;) mile hunt >>> I'm tired of hearing in these NG how great import brands are and how bad >>> are [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Dave > Bur alas in three years the domestics return a higher percentage of their > drive home price than does you Honda. ;) > > mile hunt That assumes you can sell your domestic car. Around here, it is almost impossible. > No they are not the same but the differences among them are minuscule. > The point I was trying to make is NO manufacture foreign or domestic > builds a perfect vehicle, that is why they all have a warranty. No dealer > network, foreign or domestic has a lock on perfect dealerships. <clip> The differences are far from miniscule. I have owned at one time or another: Beetle, VW Bus, Golf, Escort, Buick, Chrysler Town & Country Wagon, Geo Metro (3 cylinders & 1.0 liter-lots of fun around town), Chevy Prizm (Corolla). There really were significant differences in the fit and finish and in dealer treatment of the customer (me). The import dealer(s) was a *whole* lot better at taking care of the customer that Detroit's *and that is what is killing Detroit*! Granted that their quality has improved of late but it is too little, too late. There are an awful lot on mistreated and burned customers out there and they have very, very long memories. If domestic car companies cannot get those folks into the showrooms (maybe with 100K bumper to bumper warranties, and some priceless word of mouth advertising) they will be as dead as the dinosaurs that they, and they alone, have made themselves. If that is the case why does GM and Ford sell two and three times as many vehicles as any of the import brands? ;) mike hunt >> No they are not the same but the differences among them are minuscule. >> The point I was trying to make is NO manufacture foreign or domestic [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > advertising) they will be as dead as the dinosaurs that they, and they > alone, have made themselves. > > No they are not the same but the differences among them are minuscule. > > The point I was trying to make is NO manufacture foreign or domestic [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > advertising) they will be as dead as the dinosaurs that they, and they > alone, have made themselves. Either you are not very old, or you have a very short memory. Having owned import cars or dealt with family members that owned them in the 70's, 80's and even 90's, I can promise you that there were (and still are), wretched import car dealers and crappy import cars. My list of problematic import cars include a 1975 Datsun 280Z (clutch, EFI), 1980 Honda Accord (rust), 1983 Toyota Cressida (a wretched piece of junk with so many problem I can't list them all), 1983 Mazda (AC, cooling system, trim), 1986 VW Jetta (fuel pumps, transmission, CV joint boots, electricals), 1990 VW Passat (motor mounts, interior and exterior trim, cam drive, electricals). When we owned the Cressida, the local Toyota dealer was run like an extortion racket. Over price the new cars, sell you unreliable crap, and then hold you hostage for parts that cost two and three time the US equivalents. Things are a little better in my area now, since there actually multiple Toyota and Honda dealers, but they still treat you like they are doing you a favor by agreeing to consider selling you one of their cars. And the service departments are still run by extortionist. Maybe things are better over at the Lexus and Acura dealerships, but how would I know? I don't trust the opinion of anybody dumb enough to pay 25% more for a Toyota or Honda because they have cool brand name. At least two people I know recently ditched their unreliable Japanese cars and bought American. I have seen it go from people not buying foreign cars because there Grandfather said they were crap, to people not buying American cars for the same reason. During my lifetime, my Father has only purchased one new car that was not a Ford. Of the 21 Fords he bought over 50 years, only one was problematic (1957 Station Wagon - blew the engine in 1964 at 85,000+ miles, he had the engine rebuilt and trade the car). One other one was irritating (1979 Station Wagon - exhaust leak the dealer couldn't fix, but there was no cost since car was totaled in an accident before it was fixed). Of the other 19, I doubt he ever spent more than $300 in repairs on any of them. I spent more on the Toyota every year I owned it. So when people tell me how great Toyotas are, I just have to wonder what they are comparing them to. Everything is much better now than in 1972. I might very well buy a Toyota in the next few year, but it will be because the particular product I buy offers the features I want at an acceptable price - not because some Usenet expert claims US cars are junk and Toyotas are great. I've been to the Toyota dealership and seen the service bays filled with broken cars. I've seen my neighbors Camry lay down a cloud of blue smoke every morning. I've seen a local farmer's broken and rusted out hulk of a Tundra. Ed > and even 90's, I can promise you that there were (and still are), wretched > import car dealers and crappy import cars. My list of problematic import > cars include a 1975 Datsun 280Z (clutch, EFI), 1980 Honda Accord (rust), > 1983 Toyota Cressida (a wretched piece of junk with so many problem I can't > list them all), 1983 Mazda (AC, cooling system, trim), I was waiting for someone to bring up those dealers.... my parents had such an experience with a honda dealer back in '81 or so as I recall. They ended up leaving not buying anything at all. The Japanese import dealers took the demand for the cars as a chance to treat people poorly. >> and even 90's, I can promise you that there were (and still are), wretched >> import car dealers and crappy import cars. My list of problematic import [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >ended up leaving not buying anything at all. The Japanese import dealers >took the demand for the cars as a chance to treat people poorly. I've also seen a Ford dealer tell a woman to "be quiet and let the men talk." We walked out damn fast, since she was buying the car for herself. I was just the Go-With-Guy, and neither of us minded going to another Ford dealer with a better reputation. Oh, and that happened in the 2000s, not the 1950s. Dave > I've also seen a Ford dealer tell a woman to "be quiet and let the men > talk." We walked out damn fast, since she was buying the car for > herself. I was just the Go-With-Guy, and neither of us minded going > to another Ford dealer with a better reputation. In the 90's my (then) fiance and I had... 1. a ford dealer tell me that "I've decided on the car, and now she can decide the color". 2. a vw dealer show us the trunk mounted cd changer and point out that while I'm driving, she can fold down the rear seats and get into the trunk to change my cd's. We've never been back to either. jp >> and even 90's, I can promise you that there were (and still are), wretched >> import car dealers and crappy import cars. My list of problematic import [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >ended up leaving not buying anything at all. The Japanese import dealers >took the demand for the cars as a chance to treat people poorly. And Ford and GM dealers just treat everyone like crap. So does Toyota. Honda dealers can be very crappy too, especially for service. So what do you do? You go to a few, get your best price, then go to the one you chose to buy from and tell him what you are willing to pay. Give him 5 minutes, then turn and walk out if he isn't in the mood to sell a car. Everytime I buy a new car I do this, and the treatment I get is irrelevant because I know I won't buy from anyone until I am ready, and then I treat them just like they do everyone else. In the end, everyone is happy. I get the vehicle for what I WANT TO PAY, and they get to experience poor treatment. Oh wait, I forgot, they usually want to be the one treating the customer bad. ************************* Dave > And Ford and GM dealers just treat everyone like crap. So does > Toyota. Honda dealers can be very crappy too, especially for service. Overly broad statement. visit your local dealer and talk with people who've bought from a dealer. This whole "ford and gm dealers suck" is irrevelant... it's your LOCAL dealer who determines your experience... not the opinions or statistics across the us. >> > No they are not the same but the differences among them are minuscule. >> > The point I was trying to make is NO manufacture foreign or domestic [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > Either you are not very old, or you have a very short memory. Having owned > import cars or dealt with family members that owned them in the 70's, 80's <snip> No car or dealer is without fault. The problem is that Detroit has acquired a bad reputation with a lot of people and those folks are buying elsewhere. Detroit's ongoing slide in market share keeps going down and Toyota, Honda, etc. climbs because they are building cars people want to buy. Having good products is what makes for sales and the better the product the better the market share. Detroit is still failing and falling. How long can Detroit continue their losing streak on market share before they implode? > I don't trust the opinion of anybody dumb enough to pay 25% more for a > Toyota or Honda because they have cool brand name. Of course, those of us who do buy reliable japanese autos tend to think that there is no premium we'd be paying. The japanese cars tend (not all, but tend) to be very well value priced. Honestly, for several years I wondered why people would try to save that little bit of payment a month to buy a car from an American manufacturer with a less efficient engine, less efficient tranny, and an interior and ride quality that is much, much cheaper than the Honda or Toy. counterpart. Put another way, the hondas and toyotas are the 'premium' you bring up. the jap. cars are the middle- line, value pricing of the auto world. The cheaper american cars tended to be... just cheaper. But you get what you pay for. I have seen it go from people not buying foreign cars > because there Grandfather said they were crap, similar to what you're doing here?? >>What makes you think import cars do not have numerous problems as well or >>that their dealers do not suck? The fact is every manufacture today is [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > nate Mike Hunt and others... Sorry, but I have to agree with nate on this one, although it's not "dealer" treatment, it's manufacturer treatment. The ability of the dealer to rectify warranty concerns is dictated by manufacturer policy. I left the dealerships in 2001 as a Ford Senior Master Tech so I know a bit about the business. I'm a Ford man through and through and have been for years. I drive and recommend Ford products. I also give credit where credit is due as far as other car lines. The difference I've noticed between, say, Honda and Ford if the length the manufacturer will go to keep a customer satisfied. Lets consider transmission problems. Ford had serious problems with the AX4x, during the same time period Honda had problems with their comparable transmissions (as did nearly every one else). Honda repaired\replaced their transmissions with little hassle or downtime. Ford set limits that even to me seemed absurd, refused to bend, had serious supply problems and left the dealer hanging to deal with the complaints. Honda basically went the extra (and more) mile to satisfy their customer. Ford basically said " if your car isn't between here.....and here, you're screwed and that's it" while Honda kissed serious butt. As a consumer, who would you buy from? In my humble opinion, the quality of most vehicles between manufacturers is pretty darn even. Each car maker has their edge, each has their turds. I know of a multitude of problems with imports equal and sometimes exceeding problems with domestics. Most of the bad press about US cars is due to how warranty claims (and beyond) are handled. The US manufacturers aren't lubing the squeaky wheels as well as the Asians and haven't for years. > Sorry, but I have to agree with nate on this one, although it's not "dealer" >treatment, it's manufacturer treatment. The ability of the dealer to rectify warranty [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >recommend Ford products. I also give credit where credit is due as far as other car >lines. Man I figured I was gonna have to jump all over you... > The difference I've noticed between, say, Honda and Ford if the length the >manufacturer will go to keep a customer satisfied. Lets consider transmission [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >here.....and here, you're screwed and that's it" while Honda kissed serious butt. As a >consumer, who would you buy from? Nice, honest post. > In my humble opinion, the quality of most vehicles between manufacturers is pretty >darn even. Each car maker has their edge, each has their turds. True, the difference in average defects per car is small numerically, but percentage wise the imports such as Ford and GM are far behind the American cars like Honda and Toyota. Honda averages less than 1 defect per car, while Ford and GM average about 1.3 per car. That is about 30% more defects. ************************* Dave > One of my other co-workers bought a Windstar back in the mid-to-late '90s. > Just off warranty, the transmission failed. When he had it dragged in to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > He's gone Asian, now, too. Think he'll ever buy a Ford again? One thing I've learned is that the Japanese manufacturers have been much better at convincing people to take care of their vehicles. Little things like fluid changes and other preventive care. BTW, my mustang just turned over a 130,000 miles last night. I get 21+mpg's with my 01 Mustang GT convertible. And it's fast, fun and a good looking white on white on white. In fact it gets as good mileage if not better then my 06 Mazda 3s with and automatic (slush box) but it's a nice looking care well built in Japan but don't buy a dark blue car hard to keep clean. Like I said you can spend your money wherever you choose, I could not care less I find it odd you should mention the Lincoln LS. My first domestic after three Lexus V8s was a 2000 Lincoln LS V8 that I purchased in August of 1999. It cost me around $24,000 less to drive home than the Lexus dealer wanted for a 1999 Lexus V8, the 2000 Lexus was not yet available. In October of 2001 I purchased a 2002 Lincoln LS V8 Sport. My total outlay was around $8,000. I also bought a 2004 for comparable outlay. I bought a 2005 for just $2,000 more than the price of an Avalon V6. I keep the 2004 in Florida. As with most of my vehicles my Lincolns are still owned by some of my relatives or friends, the 2000 currently has nearly 110K trouble free miles on the clock. As with my Lexus', none of the Lincolns were problematic. The only difference I see is the Lincoln dealer treats me much better and I can buy a new Lincoln every two years for far less than it was costing me to buy a new Lexus every two years. You site retail values listed by Edmonds. You are correct a three year old V6 Camry is listed at $4,000 more than a V6 Taurus but you forget that a Camry cost at least $5,000 more to drive home, when new, than the Taurus. The Taurus actually retains a higher percentage of the original investment than the Camry. ;) mike hunt >> You are free to believe what ever you want and to spend you money >> wherever [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > stand > the financial loss of keeping it. > You site retail values listed by Edmonds. You are correct a three year old > V6 Camry is listed at $4,000 more than a V6 Taurus but you forget that a > Camry cost at least $5,000 more to drive home, when new, than the Taurus. > The Taurus actually retains a higher percentage of the original investment > than the Camry. ;) That's not the whole story. I had a very very tough time selling my 3 years old GM car. Buyers of used cars, especially in large urban areas, are only interested in Hondas or Toyotas because they just want reliable, economical transportation and they "know" that American cars are bad and Jap cars are good (that's the perception!). In rural areas you tend to find more American-made vehicles. I never have a problem selling my cars, I seldom need trade. We all know the people in the red states are smarter. ;) mike hunt >> You site retail values listed by Edmonds. You are correct a three year >> old V6 Camry is listed at $4,000 more than a V6 Taurus but you forget [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > areas you > tend to find more American-made vehicles. > Like I said you can spend your money wherever you choose, I could not care > less I find it odd you should mention the Lincoln LS. My first domestic [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > than the Camry. ;) > mike hunt Are you on crack? In your dreams the Camry costs $5k more to drive home. Are you talking about the Camry LE V6 and the Taurus SE? I'd compare the Standard Camry but you seem to have a fixation on engine cylinder count and you can't get a Standard Camry with a V6. First, a 4-cylinder Camry has the same power-to-weight ratio as the 6-cylinder Taurus, so there's no need to buy a V6 Camry to get the same performance. This leaves you free to save a lot of money, later, on gas, which is what I'd do, anyway. As far as I can tell, it's only insecure people who "need" a big motor. I have no such problems. Second, the Camry LE is better equipped than the Taurus SE. At this trim level, the Camry has a power driver's seat with adjustable lumbar support and a better stereo with radio controls on the wheel (which I find handy) Third, the Camry has a 5-speed automatic vs the Taurus' 4-speed. The Camry is better equipped to meet or beat its EPA numbers, which are, for the V6, slightly better than the Taurus' ratings, anyway. Finally, even if you do buy a V6 Camry, which will blow the doors off that Taurus, the price difference is NOT $5,000, it's more like $1,600. $1,600 for a faster, better equipped car that gets better gas mileage; it's a deal. Similar up-front pricing, far better resale or trade-in value, the Camry whips the Taurus. > >> You are free to believe what ever you want and to spend you money > >> wherever [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > stand > > the financial loss of keeping it. Apparently you have never actually gone into the market and obtained a total drive home priced both have you? One can not compare the price of 4cy Camry to a Taurus, it does not come with a 4cy. The 4cy Camry is a slug in mountainous territory. Toyota dealers in this area stock most V6 Camrys for that reason. mike hunt >> You site retail values listed by Edmonds. You are correct a three year > old [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and > you can't get a Standard Camry with a V6. the price difference is NOT $5,000, it's more like $1,600. $1,600 > for a faster, better equipped car that gets better gas mileage; it's a > deal. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] >> > stand >> > the financial loss of keeping it. > Apparently you have never actually gone into the market and obtained a total > drive home priced both have you? One can not compare the price of 4cy Camry > to a Taurus, it does not come with a 4cy. Why shouldn't I compare them? All I care about is having enough power to move the car satisfactorily. You're the one with the fixation on cylinder count. Smaller, more compact engine => lower maintenance and fuel costs. Xhp = Xhp, no matter how many cylinders it has. Cylinder count is marketing and image. I'm tall; headroom matters. I often have passengers; 4-doors is a must. You're suggesting I must compare the 190hp Camry engine to the 153hp Taurus engine? Ha! The 4-cylinder 157hp 2.4L Camry engine is more than a match for that Ford V6 153 3.0L engine. >The 4cy Camry is a slug in > mountainous territory. Toyota dealers in this area stock most V6 Camrys for > that reason. > > mike hunt I would have no problem with a 4-cylinder Camry on hills or any mountain highway. The power-to-weight ratios (hp to lbs) for cars I have actually driven in mountainous terrain (at altitudes > 5K feet) is: Car Power Weight Ratio Hill Climbing Experience 240 114hp 3100lbs 1:27 No complaints. 940t 168hp 3200lbs 1:19 Very Good Rav4 127hp 2700lbs 1:21 Good EuroVan 109hp 4100lbs 1:37 Poor in the Rockies; adequate in PA Sienna 190hp* 3960lbs 1:21 Very Good (fully loaded) * - Using 91octane raises power output to 210, which is even better, 1:19. This engine has loads of torque from idle. And one I haven't driven: Camry LE 157hp 3340lbs 1:21 No reason it wouldn't be "Good" If you feel you need to blow two gallons of gas through a 300hp V8 to fetch porno movies from a video store 5 blocks away, hey, that's fine for you. The rest of us don't necessarily have your problems. > >> You site retail values listed by Edmonds. You are correct a three year > > old [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > >> > stand > >> > the financial loss of keeping it. > Why shouldn't I compare them? All I care about is having enough power to > move the car satisfactorily. You're the one with the fixation on cylinder > count. Smaller, more compact engine => lower maintenance and fuel costs. > Xhp = Xhp, no matter how many cylinders it has. This is not necessarily true - a bigger displacement engine usually provides more low to mid range torque, which may or may not be a significant advantage, depending on your driving style, transmission and other conditions. > > Why shouldn't I compare them? All I care about is having enough power to > > move the car satisfactorily. You're the one with the fixation on cylinder [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > significant advantage, depending on your driving style, transmission and > other conditions. Everything else being equal, that's true. However, displacement is not the same as cylinder count, which is what "mike hunt" was pissing and moaning about, and technology matters, too. All the Toyota engines are now DOHC with variable valve timing and offer very good low end torque. With larger displacement, you're going to pay a price in fuel mileage. I'll take a 157 hp engine with 34mpg highway over a 153 hp engine with 27mpg highway any day. > Everything else being equal, that's true. However, displacement is not the > same as cylinder count, which is what "mike hunt" was pissing and moaning Agreed, however the two engines differ in both displacement and cylinder count :-) > about, and technology matters, too. All the Toyota engines are now DOHC > with variable valve timing and offer very good low end torque. With larger > displacement, you're going to pay a price in fuel mileage. I'll take a 157 > hp engine with 34mpg highway over a 153 hp engine with 27mpg highway any > day. This is a matter of preference. I often drive long distances and perefer the higher torque and lower rpm engines, regardless of the peak hp. In other words, Ford (and GM) should do what Chrysler is doign: put out RWD cars with powerful engines. How hard can it be?! | In other words, Ford (and GM) should do what Chrysler is doign: | put out RWD cars with powerful engines. How hard can it be?! Pretty darn hard. What will the price of gasoline be two years from now? If it is six dollars a gallon or more (which it could be), and the Asian cars that get 30 mpg and more are speeding off the lots, while the big RWD cars with powerful engines sit there, someone will come on USENET and write: "In other words, Ford (and GM) should do what the Asian marques are doing: put out small cars with great fuel economy. How hard can it be?!" john cline ii, who, for the record, drives a large Ford with AWD (that ought to limit it) which doesn't have a "powerful" engine, but will be trading for one when they become available, provided we all can afford and get petrol |
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