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Car Forum / Ford / Ford Cars / February 2007Fusion getting good marks?
Any comments on the Fusion? The Fusion out scored the Camry and Accord in a recently published consumer survey, if that means anything. mike hunt > Any comments on the Fusion? > The Fusion out scored the Camry and Accord in a recently published > consumer survey, if that means anything. > > mike hunt > >> Any comments on the Fusion? Coming from a guy named "My c.nt", I'm not sure what that means...lol > The Fusion out scored the Camry and Accord in a recently published > consumer survey, if that means anything. > > mike hunt > >> Any comments on the Fusion? What survey? > Any comments on the Fusion? Some of the reviews I've read are quite positive. I've had my eye out for one. The V6 with six speed auto is the way to go. With the incentives, you should be able to get one nicely loaded for less than the Toyota/Honda competition. For me, it's more than I want to spend and I estimate I'd be getting around 25mpg in mixed driving. I'd be spending $50 every other week on fillups. I'd be taking a MPG cut from what I drive now if I bought one. FWIW, The Fusion and Mustang got top picks from JD Powers for the category of vehicle they are. No other US Automaker were present. John I viewed a Milan and when I opened the trunk the crossmember behind the top of the back seats stuck out the a sore thumb. It was uncovered and the spotwelds showed. I took another look over the car and decided that the construction was bland and not built nearly as well as my 2000 Taurus. It is another example of the accountants running the show instead of the public's desire for the kind of cars Ford used to build. But I can say this as an overall. A little fenderbender to my 2000 Taurus caused me to get a rental unit for a few days. It was a 2004 Cobalt 4 door 18000 miles and the car was built pretty well. Then a few weeks later, another parking lot bump into my 95 Taurus caused me to get a rental unit; this time a 2005 Toyota Corolla. That car didn't have nearly the nice features that the Cobalt had and the Toyota was just plain noisy, from the engine to wind noise. The seats were lousy and the adjustments were the same. The good news is that GM, and I believe Ford too, CAN build good cars to compete with the Toyotas, if they want to. > > Any comments on the Fusion? > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > of vehicle they are. No other US Automaker were present. > John > I viewed a Milan and when I opened the trunk the crossmember behind > the top of the back seats stuck out the a sore thumb. It was [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > The good news is that GM, and I believe Ford too, CAN build good cars > to compete with the Toyotas, if they want to. thx for your comments >Any comments on the Fusion? STELLAR! STALLER! I'm not sure on the speling. Why do not they put a spel cheque here know why? >>Nobody wrote: >>>Any comments on the Fusion? >>STELLAR! STALLER! I'm not sure on the speling. Why do not they put a spel >>cheque here know why? Yes...People that are smart enough to buy a good Canada made Ford product usually know how to spell without needing one...<g> Lansing To e-mail remove the X from my address... > Yes...People that are smart enough to buy a good Canada made Ford > product usually know how to spell without needing one...<g> In an article about Toyota entering NASCAR, it was pointed out that the Camry is made in USA, Fusion is made in Mexico, and the Malibu and Charger and made in Canada.  Signature--- Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5 However the cars that race are purpose build RWD chassis, designed to race at high speeds, that have no relationship to those FWD vehicles available at you local dealerships LOL mike >> Yes...People that are smart enough to buy a good Canada made Ford >> product usually know how to spell without needing one...<g> > > In an article about Toyota entering NASCAR, it was pointed out that the > Camry is made in USA, Fusion is made in Mexico, and the Malibu and Charger > and made in Canada. >> Yes...People that are smart enough to buy a good Canada made Ford >> product usually know how to spell without needing one...<g> > > In an article about Toyota entering NASCAR, it was pointed out that the > Camry is made in USA, Fusion is made in Mexico, and the Malibu and Charger > and made in Canada. All the "race cars" are built in the US and most are assembled near Charlotte NC. While the real Fusion is assembled in Mexico, must of the parts are of US origin. You can't say the same for the Camry. I have a 2007 Fusion and so far I am delighted (3 month, 4,500 miles - no problems at all). Ed >>> Yes...People that are smart enough to buy a good Canada made Ford >>> product usually know how to spell without needing one...<g> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > While the real Fusion is assembled in Mexico, must of the parts are of US > origin. You can't say the same for the Camry. You can't say that for the Fusion, unless 30% is "must of the parts." http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news38/ You're correct about one thing: You can't say the Camry is made in Mexico because it is made domestically (in the US or Canada). Most of the US-built Camry's parts are domestic (http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&story=amMade1206&subject=mor e&referer=&aff=national). The Camry is built in Kentucky. The hybrid was scheduled to be built there starting late last year. And Camries will be built in Indiana in Subaru's Lafayette plant, as well, according to Toyota. http://www.toyota.com/about/operations/manufacturing/index.html Jeff > I have a 2007 Fusion and so far I am delighted (3 month, 4,500 miles - no > problems at all). > > Ed > You can't say that for the Fusion, unless 30% is "must of the parts." > http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news38/ I've seent hat article, but I can't find the source of the 30% number. I've searched the NHTSA web site and it is not listed. The only credible list I can find claims that Ford vehicles as a whole include 78% domestic content and Toyota vehicles as a whole contain 47% domestic content. I can't find a breakdown by model. Do you know of such a list? Ed >> You can't say that for the Fusion, unless 30% is "must of the parts." >> http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news38/ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > content and Toyota vehicles as a whole contain 47% domestic content. I > can't find a breakdown by model. Do you know of such a list? I can find it for some specific vehicles from media reports. As far as I know, there is no master list that has all the models. Now, you think that if Toyota vehicles as a whole, including those imported from Japan, contain 47% domestic content, that some would have <40%, some 40-70% and some more than 70% US content (like the Toyota Sienna and Toyota Camries built in Kentucky), so you would expect to have Toyotas with VINs of 1, 4 and 5. Yet all US-built Toyotas have VINs of 5. Very curious. I await Mike's explaination as well as the exact URL (not go to the US Department of [something that changes daily) website and search) that proves us wrong. Jeff > Ed Look at the percentages for each. The fact that the 500 has a '1' and the Camry and the Sienna a '4' and the F150 a '1' while the Tundra has a '5' proves what you chose to believe IS wrong mike >>> You can't say that for the Fusion, unless 30% is "must of the parts." >>> http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news38/ [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > >> Ed > Look at the percentages for each. The fact that the 500 has a '1' and the > Camry and the Sienna a '4' and the F150 a '1' while the Tundra has a '5' > proves what you chose to believe IS wrong What is the URL that you have that shows that I am wrong? Until you show that, I stand correct. Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> >>> Ed We have yet to see the URL that you have that supports your mistaken belief for the reason the US has three, rather than one number assigned as do all other countries. Until you show that, I stand correct ;) mike >> Look at the percentages for each. The fact that the 500 has a '1' and >> the Camry and the Sienna a '4' and the F150 a '1' while the Tundra has a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Jeff > We have yet to see the URL that you have that supports your mistaken > belief for the reason the US has three, rather than one number assigned as > do all other countries. Until you show that, I stand correct ;) You got it a.s-backwards. You made a claim about the VIN. You even said your friend who was an engineer at Ford told you were to find the documention. You show it us the URL which you claimed you know. The exact URL. Don't say search the Dept. of Commerce site. I have. Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> >> Jeff You got it a.s-backwards. You made a claim about the VIN that 4 and 5 were because, 'they are running out of VIN numbers' that you have yet to verify. ;) mike . >> We have yet to see the URL that you have that supports your mistaken >> belief for the reason the US has three, rather than one number assigned [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Jeff > You got it a.s-backwards. You made a claim about the VIN that 4 and 5 were > because, 'they are running out of VIN numbers' that you have yet to > verify. ;) http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:BfIOqzLe-oUJ:www.tfproject.org/tfp/archive/i ndex.php/t-61254.html+wmi+shortage+vin&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=firefox-a http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-07-01-vin-shortage_x.htm > mike > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> >> Jeff Get real, no wonder you are confused. The VIN, by design, whether using 1, 4 or 5, from the same manufacturer, on the exact same vehicles, of the exact same sequential built number changes annually. Even then, the check digit can be changed to allow for another 999,999 vehicles built exactly the same. One will run out of sales before they run out of VINs evn on one individual model. If they run out of manufacturers they can simply add one more digit for thousands more manufactures mike >> You got it a.s-backwards. You made a claim about the VIN that 4 and 5 >> were because, 'they are running out of VIN numbers' that you have yet to [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>> >>> Jeff > Get real, no wonder you are confused. The VIN, by design, whether using > 1, 4 or 5, from the same manufacturer, on the exact same vehicles, of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > evn on one individual model. If they run out of manufacturers they can > simply add one more digit for thousands more manufactures Did you even read the articles? They were talking about a shortage of WMIs. Oh, and your wrong about the last 6 digits of the VIN, too. That sequence of the last 6 digits can begin with A (A00001 through F99999), J (J00001 through L99999), M, 6 or 1. Ford does not begin any sequence with 000001. https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin_tools/pdfs/VIN2007.pdf Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >>>> >>>> Jeff > We have yet to see the URL that you have that supports your mistaken > belief for the reason the US has three, rather than one number assigned as > do all other countries. Until you show that, I stand correct ;) > > mike Mike, I say you are wrong. Until you can prove otherwise, I stand correct; SEE - Just because someone can't find a clear document that proves doesn't make you correct. I have never seen a written reason why the US has multiple first digits. Maybe it is because the US manufacturers asked for multiples. BUT, I have looked and looked and looked and there is absolutely ZERO (nada, none, zip) support for your assertion that the first digit is related to the domestic content of the vehicle. As I have pointed out to you before, V-6 Automatic Mustangs don't count as domestic vehicles because less than 65% of their content is domestic, yet they still get a "1" in the first VIN position. Also, "Incomplete Lincoln Trucks and MPVs" (i.e., Navigators intended for Limo conversions) get a "5" in the first position. Do you think they don't qualify as domestic vehicles? Here is a valid VIN for Lincoln LT - 5LTPW16547FJ01858. It has a "5" as the first digit. Are you going to claim that this doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle? Run the VIN through the Ford VIN decoder at https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin_tools/default.asp and you will see it was manufactured at the Ford truck plant in Dearborn. 5LMFL27577LJ12195 is the VIN for a Navigator. Do you think it doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle? 4M2YU80Z97KJ10414 is a valid VIN for a Mercury Mariner. Is this not a domestic vehicle? A similar Ford Escape has a valid VIN of 1FMYU02Z47KA04856. Why does this get a 1 and the Mariner get a 4 if domestic content is the determining factor for the first digit? 4M2EU38E47UJ00417 is a valid VIN for a Mercury Mountaineer. 1FMEU63E17UA48125 is a valid VIN for a similar Ford Explorer. Does the the Explorer qualify as domestic and the Mountaineer not domestic? (BTW, I pulled all these VIN off of vehicles in stock at local dealers - they are not made up numbers). Instead of trying to deflect attention from your erroneous claims, just prove us all wrong by clearly and completely identifying a document that supports your claim that the first digit of the VIN is related to domestic contents. If you can't do that, then quit making the bogus claim. Ed >> We have yet to see the URL that you have that supports your mistaken >> belief for the reason the US has three, rather than one number assigned [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I have never seen a written reason why the US has multiple first digits. I have: http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-07-01-vin-shortage_x.htm. It says, in part: 'By international agreement, a WMI is assigned according to region. Initially, the United States had all WMI codes that started with the number 1. '"We were assuming we were always going to be 1, originally," Proefke said. "Now we're 1, 4 and 5. And we don't have that many left of 5."' When the VIN system was started in 1981, the US was assigned '1' as the first digit for the WMI (World Manufacturer ID) for all of its automakers. The big automakers, like Ford, GM and Chrysler got more than one WMI, for different brands and types of vehicles. Smaller vehicle makers, like Harley, Catapillar, Seagrave, Mack, AMC, Divco, got fewer or only one. Trailer and some off-road vehicles also got WMIs (off-road vehicles now have thier own VIN system). But there were so many makers that the US was later assigned 4 and 5. I would think that the International Standards Organization, which is responsible for the worldwide system (SAE is responsible for the US implementation, assigned by the US gov't), would have assigned the US 1, 2 and 3 from the get-go, if they knew the US would need 3 digits. > Maybe it is because the US manufacturers asked for multiples. BUT, I have > looked and looked and looked and there is absolutely ZERO (nada, none, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > intended for Limo conversions) get a "5" in the first position. Do you > think they don't qualify as domestic vehicles? Well, considering that nearly identical vehicles from Ford get a '1,' I would think so. All Lincoln trucks get a 5, while all Mercury trucks get a '4' and all Ford trucks get a '1', even when they come off the same assembly line. No Mercury trucks get a 1 or 5, no Lincoln trucks get a 1 or 4 and no Fords get a 4 or 5. All Toyotas get a 5, despite the fact that Toyotas, as a whole, are 48% domestic. I guess that means that Toyota uses far more US parts on the cars that it imports from Japan than it builds in the US. > Here is a valid VIN for Lincoln LT - 5LTPW16547FJ01858. It has a "5" as > the first digit. Are you going to claim that this doesn't qualify as a [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > pulled all these VIN off of vehicles in stock at local dealers - they are > not made up numbers). Didn't Lincoln and Mercury first start building trucks in the late 90s or early 00s? After they ran out of 1's as the first number of the VIN? > Instead of trying to deflect attention from your erroneous claims, just > prove us all wrong by clearly and completely identifying a document that > supports your claim that the first digit of the VIN is related to domestic > contents. If you can't do that, then quit making the bogus claim. > > Ed Didn't you see the US code where they describe the VIN? Oopsie. Doesn't say a word about US content. Absolutely no evidence that he is correct, plenty of evidence that he is not correct. Gee, are you sure his claim is bogus? I am. Jeff > Absolutely no evidence that he is correct, plenty of evidence that he is > not correct. Gee, are you sure his claim is bogus? I am. We are in violent agreement. Ed What evidence is that? Were is your evidence that 'they ran out of VINs starting with '1?' Where is your evidence that a Mercury, Lincoln or Ford could possibly have the same VIN sequence, even if all were built in the same plant with the same level of US content, not just vehicle line NA content? ;) mike >> Absolutely no evidence that he is correct, plenty of evidence that he is >> not correct. Gee, are you sure his claim is bogus? I am. > > We are in violent agreement. > > Ed Think about it, the LT and the F150 are made on the same assembly line. What do you think is the reason they are not both a '1?' mike >> We have yet to see the URL that you have that supports your mistaken >> belief for the reason the US has three, rather than one number assigned [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > the first digit. Are you going to claim that this doesn't qualify as a > domestic vehicle? > Ed > Think about it, the LT and the F150 are made on the same assembly > line. What do you think is the reason they are not both a '1?' > > mike Are you trying to suggest that because the LT gets a "5" it doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle, while the F150 does? You are delusional. The first digit has nothing to do with domestic content. Admit it or provide a clear reference. All Lincoln trucks get a "5" as the first digit. All Mercury "trucks" get a "4." There is no way even you can think that at least some of them qualify as domestic vehicles. Ed >> Think about it, the LT and the F150 are made on the same assembly line. >> What do you think is the reason they are not both a '1?' [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > digit. All Mercury "trucks" get a "4." There is no way even you can think > that at least some of them qualify as domestic vehicles. In addition, I don't think NAFTA would even allow the first digit of the VIN to reflect US content as opposed to US + Canadian content. Then again, there is no US law or code which requires that the first letter of the VIN represent anything other than the country of manufacture. For each combination of manufacturer (Lincoln | Ford | Mercury | Mazda ) and vehicle type (passenger car, MPV, truck, etc.), the VIN in positions 1, 2 and 3 is unique. https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin_tools/pdfs/VIN2007.pdf That means Ford doesn't even has the posibility of changing the first digit according to content. And Ford makes zero vehicles under the Ford brand with a VIN that begins with a 4 or 5. If Mike is correct, then, it makes *all* of its Ford tvehicles with > 70% US content, but none of its Mercury, Mazda or Lincoln trucks or SUVs with > 70% content and some those vehicles (nearly identical to Fords built on the same assembly line with the same NA content) with < 40% US content? Mike, that doesn't make sense. And if the content was reflected in the VIN, don't you think that somebody else would know this and report it on the web? Not one other source I found said word 1 about this. You would think it would be mentioned at least in passing by automotive magazines or other press reports, in the government web pages, in the US code, mentioned in passing on the tables that list the WMIs, like the one I referenced from Ford. Jeff Jeff > Ed > >> Think about it, the LT and the F150 are made on the same assembly line. > >> What do you think is the reason they are not both a '1?' [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > > Jeff We should give up trying to correct Mike. I suspect Mike knows he is wrong and is to self righteous to admit it, or he is just plain stupid. If he had any actual proof, he would have posted it long ago. Instead he ignores any proof to the contrary and alludes to mysterious proof that no one else is able to find. It is an old tactic for crooks and liars. Hopefully Mike is just to stubborn to admit he is wrong. I'd hate to think he was a crook or a liar. I had much rather think he is just mistaken and stubborn. Ed >> >> Think about it, the LT and the F150 are made on the same assembly >> >> line. [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > I'd hate to think he was a crook or a liar. I had much rather think he > is just mistaken and stubborn. Yep, I agree. Shame, though. Mike's not stupid, just, apparently, stuburn. Jeff > Ed > Think about it, the LT and the F150 are made on the same assembly line. > What do you think is the reason they are not both a '1?' Because Lincoln was assigned a WMI "5LT" for its trucks by the Society of Automotive Engineers, the people who are designate by the National Highway Traffic and Safety Administration to assign WMIs. According this table, https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin_tools/pdfs/VIN2007.pdf, prepared by Ford, the only digit Lincoln MPVs and Trucks start with is '5'. Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >> Ed > Look at the percentages for each. The fact that the 500 has a '1' and the > Camry and the Sienna a '4' and the F150 a '1' while the Tundra has a '5' > proves what you chose to believe IS wrong The Lincoln LT gets a "5" for the first digit. It is built in the same plant of mostly the same parts as an F150. Are you going to claim the Lincoln LT does not qualify as a domestic vehicle while the F150 does? Doesn't this prove you wrong? Go on, you can admit it.... Ed >>> You can't say that for the Fusion, unless 30% is "must of the parts." >>> http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news38/ [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I can find it for some specific vehicles from media reports. As far as I > know, there is no master list that has all the models. The "from media reports" bothers me. I know the manufacturer's report the data to NHTSA, but apparently NHTSA is not making it readily available. It also bothers me that I don't recall seeing the domestic content label on my new Fusion (or my SO 2007 RAV4). I still have the window sticker for the Fusion and it is not on that. I assume it must have been on a separate label that I never saw. Next time I get a chance, I plan to stop by the dealer and look for the sticker. Still, even though the Fusion was assembled in Mexico, many of the components are of US origin, the engineers and other non-assembly line workers are mostly US workers, and the profits (if any), flow to a US based corporation. I know Toyota also employs many non-assembly line workers, but what percentage of the engineers who design Toyota are based in the US? Do you really want a country full of poorly paid assembly line workers? Wouldn't you like to at least maintian a trained force of engineers? Ford, GM, and Chrysler support many retired workers. If they go belly up, many of those retirees will end up being supported by you and me. Is that a good thing? 15 years from now, if the car business goes south do you think Toyota won't cut and run from the US if it suits their financial needs? > Now, you think that if Toyota vehicles as a whole, including those > imported from Japan, contain 47% domestic content, that some would have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Department of [something that changes daily) website and search) that > proves us wrong. You are waiting in vain. Mike is wrong about his claim that the first digit of the VIN has anything to do with domestic content. Mercury and Lincoln trucks and SUVs get 4's and 5's for the first digit. I doubt even Mike would claim a Lincoln LT doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle. Ed <...> >> I can find it for some specific vehicles from media reports. As far as I >> know, there is no master list that has all the models. > > The "from media reports" bothers me. It bothers me, too. But I don't know of a better source. I can go to the NY Auto Show in April and look at the stickers. But, it doesn't give a good average. > I know the manufacturer's report the data to NHTSA, but apparently NHTSA > is not making it readily available. It also bothers me that I don't recall [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > workers, but what percentage of the engineers who design Toyota are based > in the US? Toyota has two engineering centers in the US, in California and Ann Arbor, Michigan. I think the Tundra was completely designed in the US. Some of the SUVs I think are too. A lot of vehicles get exterior design done in the US, too. The center in Ann Arbor is Toyota's largest engineering center outside of Japan. > Do you really want a country full of poorly paid assembly line workers? No, but the Toyota workers are not poorly paid, although they don't get pay or benefits that the big 3 pay. > Wouldn't you like to at least maintian a trained force of engineers? Ford, > GM, and Chrysler support many retired workers. If they go belly up, many > of those retirees will end up being supported by you and me. If the big 3 go belly up, their pensions go to the US Pension Guarenty Board (or something like that). Once the pensions go to the board, there are limits on the pensions which means that the retirees will still get pensions, but they will be smaller. It may be that the pensions have enough money that it won't be a net loss the taxpayers. > Is that a good thing? The bad thing is that if people get pensions, the pensions come from the companies, not the government, like in every other country. So that means that US companies have a cost that their competitors overseas don't have, pensions and healthcare. >15 years from now, if the car business goes south do you think Toyota won't >cut and run from the US if it suits their financial needs? The only way it will go south is if the US economy goes south. The thing is that with 300,000,000+ people, the US will still be a huge car market, although probably not the biggest. >> Now, you think that if Toyota vehicles as a whole, including those >> imported from Japan, contain 47% domestic content, that some would have [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Lincoln trucks and SUVs get 4's and 5's for the first digit. I doubt even > Mike would claim a Lincoln LT doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle. Oh, come on. Mercuries come with a 4. So Ford brings in the extra parts from Canada. And it brings in more extra parts for Lincoln. It does this for all the Lincoln and Mercury SUVs and trucks, even when they are built on the same assembly lines as the '1' Fords. It is part of their VIN reduction plan. And Toyota sends US parts to Japan for US-bound cars, but uses Japanese parts in US cars, as part of its VIN reduction plan. ;-) Funny how Mike was able to tell me which part of the Commonwealth of PA code has the stuff about speed limit violations, but has been unable to tell more than searth the Department of Commerce web site for the VIN stuff. I guess that is his URL reduction plan. ;-) Too bad he doesn't. His favoriate charity will $50 when he shows us the URL. Jeff > Ed <...> >> I can find it for some specific vehicles from media reports. As far as I >> know, there is no master list that has all the models. > > The "from media reports" bothers me. It bothers me, too. But I don't know of a better source. I can go to the NY Auto Show in April and look at the stickers. But, it doesn't give a good average. > I know the manufacturer's report the data to NHTSA, but apparently NHTSA > is not making it readily available. It also bothers me that I don't recall [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > workers, but what percentage of the engineers who design Toyota are based > in the US? Toyota has two engineering centers in the US, in California and Ann Arbor, Michigan. I think the Tundra was completely designed in the US. Some of the SUVs I think are too. A lot of vehicles get exterior design done in the US, too. The center in Ann Arbor is Toyota's largest engineering center outside of Japan. > Do you really want a country full of poorly paid assembly line workers? No, but the Toyota workers are not poorly paid, although they don't get pay or benefits that the big 3 pay. > Wouldn't you like to at least maintian a trained force of engineers? Ford, > GM, and Chrysler support many retired workers. If they go belly up, many > of those retirees will end up being supported by you and me. If the big 3 go belly up, their pensions go to the US Pension Guarenty Board (or something like that). Once the pensions go to the board, there are limits on the pensions which means that the retirees will still get pensions, but they will be smaller. It may be that the pensions have enough money that it won't be a net loss the taxpayers. > Is that a good thing? The bad thing is that if people get pensions, the pensions come from the companies, not the government, like in every other country. So that means that US companies have a cost that their competitors overseas don't have, pensions and healthcare. >15 years from now, if the car business goes south do you think Toyota won't >cut and run from the US if it suits their financial needs? The only way it will go south is if the US economy goes south. The thing is that with 300,000,000+ people, the US will still be a huge car market, although probably not the biggest. >> Now, you think that if Toyota vehicles as a whole, including those >> imported from Japan, contain 47% domestic content, that some would have [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Lincoln trucks and SUVs get 4's and 5's for the first digit. I doubt even > Mike would claim a Lincoln LT doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle. Oh, come on. Mercuries come with a 4. So Ford brings in the extra parts from Canada. And it brings in more extra parts for Lincoln. It does this for all the Lincoln and Mercury SUVs and trucks, even when they are built on the same assembly lines as the '1' Fords. It is part of their VIN reduction plan. And Toyota sends US parts to Japan for US-bound cars, but uses Japanese parts in US cars, as part of its VIN reduction plan. ;-) Funny how Mike was able to tell me which part of the Commonwealth of PA code has the stuff about speed limit violations, but has been unable to tell more than searth the Department of Commerce web site for the VIN stuff. I guess that is his URL reduction plan. ;-) Too bad he doesn't. His favoriate charity will $50 when he shows us the URL. Jeff > Ed The LT 'qualifies' as you call it as a domestic vehicle, but it is one with less than 70% US content. The interior is made in Canada for one. mike "C. E. White" <cewhite@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:KbNEh.4335 . Mercury and Lincoln > trucks and SUVs get 4's and 5's for the first digit. I doubt even Mike > would claim a Lincoln LT doesn't qualify as a domestic vehicle. > > Ed > The LT 'qualifies' as you call it as a domestic vehicle, but it is > one with less than 70% US content. The interior is made in Canada > for one. > > mike You are so full of s*^t on this one. Provide some proof. All Lincoln trucks get a "5" for the first digit, all Mercury trucks get a "4" for the first digit. Do you honestly want to claim that a Mercury Mountaineer has significantly different domestic content than a Ford Explorer (all of which get a "1")? You have no proof, you blow off anything that doesn't support your erroneous claims, what should I think? Ed I never said all Lincoln trucks get a "5" for the first digit, all Mercury trucks get a "4" Some Aviators have a 4 as well. >> The LT 'qualifies' as you call it as a domestic vehicle, but it is one >> with less than 70% US content. The interior is made in Canada for one. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Ed >I never said all Lincoln trucks get a "5" for the first digit, all Mercury >trucks get a "4" Some Aviators have a 4 as well. Come now. I did a search on "Aviator VIN" and every Aviator it found had a VIN begining with 5. To be sure, I looked here: https://www.fleet.ford.com/maintenance/vin_tools/pdfs/VIN2007.pdf Ford seems to think you are wrong. What is your evidence? Jeff >>> The LT 'qualifies' as you call it as a domestic vehicle, but it is one >>> with less than 70% US content. The interior is made in Canada for one. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> >> Ed > The LT 'qualifies' as you call it as a domestic vehicle, but it is one > with less than 70% US content. The interior is made in Canada for one. > > mike Evidence that the interior is made in Canada? Jeff > "C. E. White" <cewhite@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:KbNEh.4335 > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Ed What evidence do you have that it is not? ;) mike >> The LT 'qualifies' as you call it as a domestic vehicle, but it is one >> with less than 70% US content. The interior is made in Canada for one. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >>> >>> Ed > What evidence do you have that it is not? ;) You've got it a.s backwards again. You made the claim. You back it up. Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >>>> >>>> Ed You've got it a.s backwards again. You made the claim. You back it up. mike >> What evidence do you have that it is not? ;) > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >>>>> >>>>> Ed > You've got it a.s backwards again. > > You made the claim. You back it up. You said the interior is made in Canada. You back it up. Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >>>>>> >>>>>> Ed That is why Fords, like the 500 and the F150, assembled in the US have a '1' as the first number of the VIN and the Camry assembled in the US has a '4' as the first number of the VIN mike >> You can't say that for the Fusion, unless 30% is "must of the parts." >> http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news38/ [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ed > That is why Fords, like the 500 and the F150, assembled in the US have a > '1' as the first number of the VIN and the Camry assembled in the US has a > '4' as the first number of the VIN What evidence do yo have thatthe first digit in the VIN has anything to do with content? What about Fords, like some Mustangs with 67% domestic content, which still have a '1'? How 'bout some real evidence that the first digit of the VIN means other than "assembled in the USA from parts from the planet Earth?" Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Ed Those that have a '1' have more than 70% US content. My 2007 Mustang GT convertible has 80% mike >> That is why Fords, like the 500 and the F150, assembled in the US have a >> '1' as the first number of the VIN and the Camry assembled in the US has [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >>> >>> Ed > Those that have a '1' have more than 70% US content. My 2007 Mustang GT > convertible has 80% No. The Toyota Sienna has about 85% content. It has a 5, like every other US built Toyota, regardless of content The first digit of the VIN has nothing to do with content. Show us the URL, and my offer to send $50 to your favoriate charity still stands. Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >>>> >>>> Ed If you know the percentage of US content for the Sienna then you must have found the Commerce Department site, but misread what you saw there . Me thinks your are referring to the NAP label ;) I would not embarrass myself by having a measly $50 donate in my name to any charity. ;) mike >> Those that have a '1' have more than 70% US content. My 2007 Mustang GT >> convertible has 80% [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >> mike > If you know the percentage of US content for the Sienna then you must have > found the Commerce Department site, but misread what you saw there . Me > thinks your are referring to the NAP label ;) Wrong again. The number came from a number of media reports. > I would not embarrass myself by having a measly $50 donate in my name to > any charity. ;) Who said it has to be in your name? Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >>> mike > Those that have a '1' have more than 70% US content. My 2007 Mustang GT > convertible has 80% > > mike And a V-6 Automatic Mustang has less than 65% doemstic content and still gets a 1. Ed You are confusing the NAP label with US content. Look at the NAP label on a Japanese built Camry with a 'J.' I too will bear a NAP label showing a high percentage of NA parts when it fact it has none. mike >> Those that have a '1' have more than 70% US content. My 2007 Mustang GT >> convertible has 80% [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > gets a 1. > Ed > You are confusing the NAP label with US content. Look at the NAP > label on a Japanese built Camry with a 'J.' I too will bear a NAP > label showing a high percentage of NA parts when it fact it has > none. > > mike You still haven't explained why a V-6 Automatic Mustang which doesn't have 65% domestic content still gets a 1 as the first digit of the VIN. You haven't explained why a Mercury Mountaineer which has more than 75% domestic content has a 4 as the first digit. And what the heck is the NAP label? Is this the Domestic Content Label? Can you actually separate out US and Canadian content? I though all Canadian content counted towards the "domestic" content for everyone's vehicles. Ed >>> Those that have a '1' have more than 70% US content. My 2007 >>> Mustang GT convertible has 80% [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> still gets a 1. >> Ed You thought wrong, do a search WBMA IF one brings in steel from Japan then stamps a fender in Canada and a hood in the US those parts count for the NAP label. For US content, they are zero. mike >> You are confusing the NAP label with US content. Look at the NAP label >> on a Japanese built Camry with a 'J.' I too will bear a NAP label [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >>> gets a 1. >>> Ed > You thought wrong, do a search WBMA IF one brings in steel from Japan > then stamps a fender in Canada and a hood in the US those parts count for > the NAP label. For US content, they are zero. Winnipeg Minor Basketball Association? What does WMBA stand for? Jeff > mike > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>>> still gets a 1. >>>> Ed |
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