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Car Forum / GMC Cars / March 2005

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Fuel Mileage: What was GM thinking?!!!

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Don_ - 24 Mar 2005 15:20 GMT
With gas prices up and GM sales declining, I can't understand what their
engineers  were thinking when they designed the new Saturn Ion and Chevy
Cobalt.

These are nice cars, BU T:  With automatic transmisssions, they get LOWER
EPA highway fuel economy than the larger Chevy Malibu with the 4 cylinder
engine and much lower than the Corolla.  These low mileage figures make
these cars less competitive in the marketplace.

Doesn't GM know that people who buy this class of car are interested in fuel
economy.  If they craved horsepower, they would be looking at other cars.

GM could have designed these cars with better highway mileage without
sacrificing zero to 60 acceleration by putting in a taller final drive
ratio.

We're not talking rocket science here.  If GM has some logic behind their
designs of these cars, I would like to hear it.
LeBuick - 24 Mar 2005 18:17 GMT
> With gas prices up and GM sales declining, I can't understand
> what their
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> behind their
> designs of these cars, I would like to hear it.

Not necessarily, just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder so is
car buying. I agree there should be options but now a days, not too
many of us go for the one size/color fits all theory. I recently read
of a guy who refused to buy a white service van. Dealers laughed but
he hung in there and found what he wanted. Now others want options.

On that note, my wife (who likes smaller cars) refused a great price
on a 4 cyl Alero and held out for a 6 cyl. Like every person I like to
save a buck but I will pay for power when I WANT it. I still fill my
tank with premium and drive large cars.

What happen to that engine that would cut itself back from 8 to 4
cyl?s on the highway? If the technology was any good I would pay for
that.
Repairman - 24 Mar 2005 20:55 GMT
> What happen to that engine that would cut itself back from 8 to 4
> cyl?s on the highway? If the technology was any good I would pay for
> that.

Well then ya better step over to the Mopar dealer, pull out your wallet and
get a 300 with a Hemi.
It's got the tech. your looking for.
Of course it's too early to tell if it's gonna be problem free, I remember
the old 8-6-4 tech. of the Caddy's but that was then.
Nothing like some consumer testing for a year or two to make sure something
works OK before I buy though.......
Signature

John
"anything you say can & will be misquoted & used against you"
'01 FLHR ''Red"
'04 MXZ 600ho
'99 XC700
BRC mem

Harry Face - 24 Mar 2005 22:49 GMT
2006 Grand Prix, Monte Carlo SS and Impala SS will have a cylinder
deactivation on their new V-8. 300 Horse power & 335 Torque

  Harryface       Ø¿Ø
1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE
          300,734 miles          


Brad Clarke - 25 Mar 2005 03:47 GMT
>>2006 Grand Prix, Monte Carlo SS and Impala SS will have a cylinder
>>deactivation on their new V-8. 300 Horse power & 335 Torque
But the Monte and Impala will look like a 96 Lumina; I know retro is in,
but I don't think 1996 is far enough back :)
LeBuick - 25 Mar 2005 07:32 GMT
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:49:51 -0600, harryface@webtv.net (Harry
> Face)
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> retro is in,
> but I don't think 1996 is far enough back :)

I wonder why they won?t try to cut a 3.8L down to 3 cyl?s. I would
love to see a technology like that on a Buick PA, Lesabre or a
Bonne... With a button on the shifter so I can turn off the feature in
the rockies. Of course, it may stall when the AC cuts on and the
lighter is pushed in...
Harry Face - 25 Mar 2005 08:01 GMT
LeBuick

Unfortunately the three models you mentioned will not be here in 2006.

  Harryface       Ø¿Ø
1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE
          300,734 miles          


LeBuick - 25 Mar 2005 18:12 GMT
>LeBuick
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>1991 Pontiac Bonneville LE
>           300,734 miles

Now there is where i?m confused about their thinking, stopping
production on your (the) best sellers and replace them with
unknowns??? They are even using newly designed engines etc... We know
what goes wrong on a 3.8L.

Logic to me says get rid of my worst sellers in hopes of boosting that
end of the market. They have the mid to luxery size market in their
hands for all who can?t afford a Lexus but they are gambling with it.

I guess that?s why I don?t make the big bucks, I don?t get it...
Jonathan Race - 25 Mar 2005 19:19 GMT
The answer is two-fold:  2007 and 2010 - the years when stricter emissions
standards go into effect.  Most likely, GM put the 3.8L onto the test bench
and decided that it needed such major modifications to meet the new
standards that it was better to build a new motor from the ground up (just
don't be surprised if it shares some major components as the current 3.8L).
If they are coming out with a new motor, better to do it before the
standards go into effect and get some real-world miles under its belt before
the deadlines.

Cheers - Jonathan
Signature

Jonathan A. Race
Lieutenant, EMS Supervisor
Orange County (FL) Fire Rescue Department

(This message may contain personal opinions and/or information not related
to my employment or employer)

> Now there is where i'm confused about their thinking, stopping
> production on your (the) best sellers and replace them with
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> I guess that's why I don't make the big bucks, I don't get it...
email name - 25 Mar 2005 09:03 GMT
> > On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:49:51 -0600, harryface@webtv.net (Harry
> > Face)
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>the rockies. Of course, it may stall when the AC cuts on and the
>lighter is pushed in...

Why not a 1.6L 4 cylinder hybrid with an electrically driven
supercharger & reed valves in the inlet to allow for a smooth
transition between (full throttle)  blower operation and normal
operation?

Should be able to get 200 peak HP out of it reliably with an
additional 50 from each of two electric motor regenerative motors on
each rear wheel coupled to Li-on Battery pack and capacitor for
stoplight juicing  ;-)

A twin clutch electronic transmission, electric assist steering, & A/C
compressor with a PET plastic body for weight & cost savings one could
have a mid sized stormer that eats the new Accord on economy and
performance.

It seems to me that the manufacturers are going the wrong way.  People
want quick cars.  And they also want/need fuel efficient, cheap, safe
cars, however they can't keep a complex car maintained sufficiently.

Quick is a relative term.  So for Joe average full throttle
acceleration will last for a few seconds "at most" if the vehicle is
reasonably equipt.  

So... Allow them to charge up a high capacity capacitor at the stop
light with the little four cylinder engine revving and charging the
capacitor,   Light turns green four cylinder works like crazy,
capacitors dump electrical charge into rear mounted electric motors...

Blinding acceleration until you're past the speed limit or the car
beside you.  No heavy reinforced structure to handle massive power at
one given wheel,  4 wheel drive on demand.   No heavy drive train to
provide acceleration, No large super expensive battery pack, quick
acceleration, excellent economy during normal operation, seamless
operation for the operator.

I know that Volvo's had a system where it would allow an "over boost"
condition to last for something like 7 -15 seconds. (can't recall if
it was called Turbo+)  regardless.  

With an electrically driven blower the engine can be optimized for
regular driving with only slight strengthening to handle the temporary
higher boost loads, there would be less of a requirement for an inter
cooler, you wouldn't have continuous drag on the engine but the power
would be there when needed.  Wired correctly the rear wheel braking
could be done with the electric motors/generators (so no need & no
weight of rear wheel braking systems or ABS systems.

A crank mounted clutched generator could function as not only a
generator but also a starter and drive motor for the front wheels in
economy mode (stop & go traffic).

Benefits: Cheaper power, no drive belts to maintain, no PS fluid to
heat up, etc, simplified wiring harness (data bus communication)
simplified smaller brakes (primary braking done via regenerative)
greater power to weight ratio, better fuel economy, greater
reliability (fewer things to go wrong) improved long term appearance
(aka rust free bodies). etc, etc, etc,

The big appeal for me.  Instant acceleration, no waiting for the
engine to rev, or the turbo's to spool, just instant torque from the
electric engines until the gas engine gets on the boil and keeps up
the linear increase in power.  In theory it should also be quieter
under most circumstances.
Scott Buchanan - 25 Mar 2005 19:22 GMT
What about the back EMF of the electric motors and the size and weight of
the motors and capacitors. A reed valve? If you could find a way to handle
the temperature and seal, you still would have losses just to open the
thing. A plastic body? Are you going to injection mold the whole thing in
one shot?

> > > On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 15:49:51 -0600, harryface@webtv.net (Harry
> > > Face)
[quoted text clipped - 77 lines]
> the linear increase in power.  In theory it should also be quieter
> under most circumstances.
Dennis Smith - 25 Mar 2005 17:17 GMT
>I wonder why they won?t try to cut a 3.8L down to 3 cyl?s. I would
>love to see a technology like that on a Buick PA, Lesabre or a
>Bonne...

I'd like to see an option that would activate an additional 100-200HP and
reduce gas mileage down to 5 MPG like the old days :-)

Signature

    _________________________________________________________________
    Dennis Smith                            

    -1971 Trans Am - 455 H.O. - M21 4speed - Cameo white/blue stripe-
    -1973 Trans Am - 455 - TH400 auto - Buccaneer red-
    -1984 Trans Am - 5.0 L - TH700R4 auto - Royal blue/silver aero-
    _________________________________________________________________

 
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