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Car Forum / GMC Cars / December 2005

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Torque Converter Clutch shudder?

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Ed - 02 Nov 2005 04:52 GMT

Our '95 Park Ave Ultra has been exhibiting symptoms that I've been told here
could be due to the torque converter clutch. When driving at steady speed,
e.g., 60 to 70 on the freeway, there is a short hesitation, sort of like
something
is slipping in the drive train. This has been happening over the last couple
months,
with increasing frequency.  I've had it to a transmission shop and my normal
service
shop, but it would not do it for them when they test drove the car. Not too
surprising
since it tends to happen only after driving for 20-30 minutes.

Then today I noticed another similar smyptom, but
while at a stop light, in drive with foot on the brake. Sort of like
something slipped
that caused the engine to loose speed. I watched it on the tach. It would be
idling
at about 1000 RPM (AC was on), then it would drop down to perhaps 850 for
a moment and then return to 1000. I suppose this could be attributed to the
AC clutch
kicking the compressor in and out, but I've driven this car nearly 10 years
and
never noticed it before. And it had an erie similarity that reminded me of
the
shuddering at road speeds, perhaps in the timing of the event.

So one question is are these two symptoms related? Someone here suggested
the
shudder might not be the TCC at all, but rather the engine having an
intermittant
missing problem.

The other question is how to narrow down the diagnosis. I'd sure hate to pay
for
a transmission/TCC overhaul or what ever (which sounds expensive) only to
have
the problem still with me.

TIA

Ed
=AB Paul =BB - 02 Nov 2005 05:29 GMT
> Our '95 Park Ave Ultra has been exhibiting symptoms that I've been told here
> could be due to the torque converter clutch. When driving at steady speed,
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> Ed

Bad plug wires.
Ed - 02 Nov 2005 19:43 GMT


"« Paul »" <"=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul
=?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?="@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:43684105.B2ECA88@houston.rr.com...
> Bad plug wires.

Thanks, Paul. Sure is an easy and cheap thing to try, and given their age it
should be done anyway.

Ed
sdlomi2 - 02 Nov 2005 20:35 GMT
> "« Paul »" <"=?x-user-defined?Q?=AB?= Paul
> =?x-user-defined?Q?=BB?="@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Ed

   When you get new wires, be sure & get a good quality.  We've seen many
lesser brands perform as poorly as the old ones.  s
Ed - 03 Nov 2005 21:12 GMT


>    When you get new wires, be sure & get a good quality.  We've seen many
> lesser brands perform as poorly as the old ones.  s

Thanks. Any particular brands I should ask for, or just the highest priced
ones?

Ed
Shep - 02 Nov 2005 15:23 GMT
Tcc slippage or shudder can be determined using a full trans capable scanner
looking at tcc engagement and slipppage percentage parameters, of course
someone has to do this when the condition occurs.

> Our '95 Park Ave Ultra has been exhibiting symptoms that I've been told
> here
[quoted text clipped - 38 lines]
>
> Ed
Ed - 02 Nov 2005 19:44 GMT

Thanks, Shep. Guess I'll have to ask the guy at the tranny shop to
drive the car for a few days.

Ed

> Tcc slippage or shudder can be determined using a full trans capable
> scanner looking at tcc engagement and slipppage percentage parameters, of
> course someone has to do this when the condition occurs.
James Goforth - 06 Nov 2005 15:39 GMT
 I was wondering if the scanner for this year of car would store
transmission codes, i.e. gear ratio error, meaning the output speed
doesn't correspond correctly with the input (engine) speed for example,
or perhaps some more specific code which would point to TC malfunction.  
 If that's the case, the car wouldn't have to exhibit the condition at
the time the scanner is connected to it; they could just hook it up
initially and look at any hard or soft codes, then clear them and check
it in a couple days and see which one re-appears.
 My Chrysler 604 was diagnosed that way, and it was an '89.  Surely you
can do the same thing with this '95.
 As for which plugwires to get (since you say it's due for them anyway)
I'd just get the factory original Delcos.  At our shop we'd always
replace Delco stuff with Delco, since we didn't want the vehicle coming
back because the part failed, in which case we'd have to eat the labor.
Ed - 06 Dec 2005 03:53 GMT


>  I was wondering if the scanner for this year of car would store
> transmission codes, i.e. gear ratio error, meaning the output speed
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> back because the part failed, in which case we'd have to eat the
> labor.

James,

Just to bring everyone up to date, I did replace the plugs with AC
Delcos and the wires
with the best brand product avaliable at my trusted Parts Plus
store... a Federal Mogul
brand which I don't remember, for about $40. It ran OK for a while,
then after a week or so
the engine started missing really bad, and the herky-jerky thing was
happening nearly all the time.
Before that happened I had made an appointment with the tranny shop,
thinking the
TCC was at fault because the "brake tap" test stops it. But when it
started missing I figured
I'd best take it back to my normal garage since maybe they had put a
bad air mass sensor
on it. Guess what? They tracked the missing down to a failed spark
plug... one of
theose brand new AC Delcos had apparently failed. I could hardly
believe it, but they
said they did a compression check and checked all the plugs and #1 was
not firing
all the time. Now, the engine runs smoothly and, get this, no more
herky-jerky!

So, the question now is what cause that plug to fail, and will it fail
again and the herky-jerky
come back too? I'm betting it will....

Ed
HLS@nospam.nix - 06 Dec 2005 12:56 GMT
"Ed" <jag_manR__EM*-0_V_E653@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:KW7lf.31945

> So, the question now is what cause that plug to fail, and will it fail
> again and the herky-jerky
> come back too? I'm betting it will....
>
> Ed

Was the plug fouled?  If you have heavy fouling, it may well happen again.
If the plug was just internally bad, it may not happen again.  I dont
believe
I have ever seen a plug bad out of the box, but Im sure it happens.
Ed - 06 Dec 2005 16:37 GMT


> Was the plug fouled?  If you have heavy fouling, it may well happen
> again.
> If the plug was just internally bad, it may not happen again.  I
> dont
> believe
> I have ever seen a plug bad out of the box, but Im sure it happens.

Yes, it was fouled. However, I can't tell if it is fouled because it
had not been firing,
or if stopped firing due to becoming fouled... chicken and egg thing I
guess.

I picture spark plugs an just a center conductor, i.e., an extension
of the electrode. If
so, it's had to see how it could abruptly stop conducting. OTOH, if it
is more complex,
e.g., a resistor or something in there, perhaps it could fail.

BTW, the car did run fine right after installing the new plugs and
wires. It was after a
week or so of driving that it began to miss.

thanks.

Ed
 
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