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Car Forum / GMC Cars / December 2005GM to cut 30,000 Jobs & Close several NA Plants
FOR RELEASE: 2005-11-21 GM North America to Undergo Major Capacity Reduction Next Significant Step in GM's North American Turnaround Plan 9 Assembly, Stamping & Powertrain Facilities, 3 SPO Facilities to Cease Operations - Total Reduction of 30,000 Positions Total Cost Reduction Running Rate of $7 Billion by End of 2006 DETROIT - General Motors will undergo a wide-ranging restructuring of its manufacturing operations in the United States and Canada as part of its comprehensive four-point plan to return the company to profitability and long-term growth, GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner announced today. GM's next step in its North American turnaround plan addresses its ongoing capacity utilization, a major component of reducing structural cost. A total of nine assembly, stamping and powertrain facilities and three Service and Parts Operations facilities will cease operations. The additional actions will reduce GMNA assembly capacity by about 1 million units by the end of 2008, in addition to the previously implemented reduction of 1 million units between 2002 and 2005. Factoring in the additional capacity from GM's new Delta Township facility in Lansing, Mich., slated to begin production next year, the overall net result will be a GMNA assembly capacity of 4.2 million units. While down 30 percent since 2002, this capacity level will still provide GM plenty of flexibility to anticipate and meet market demand, but in a much more cost-effective manner. A total of 30,000 manufacturing positions will be eliminated from 2005 through 2008. "The decisions we are announcing today were very difficult to reach because of their impact on our employees and the communities where we live and work," Wagoner added. "But these actions are necessary for GM to get its costs in line with our major global competitors. In short, they are an essential part of our plan to return our North American operations to profitability as soon as possible. "We continue to be equally committed to revenue drivers - introducing compelling new cars and trucks, and executing our revitalized sales and marketing strategy - and we have received ratification of the agreement with the UAW, which will help significantly to address our health-care cost challenges," Wagoner said. "We are making steady and significant progress in implementing the plan to turn around our U.S. business." The following six assembly plant sites will be affected in the years indicated: Oklahoma City, Okla., will cease production in early 2006. Lansing, Mich., Craft Centre will cease production in mid-2006. Spring Hill, Tenn., Plant/Line No. 1, will cease production at the end of 2006. Doraville, Ga., will cease production at the end of its current products' lifecycle in 2008. The third shift will be removed at Oshawa Car Plant No. 1, in Ontario, Canada, in the second half of 2006. Subsequently, Oshawa Car Plant No. 2 will cease production after the current product runs out in 2008. The third shift will be removed at Moraine, Ohio, during 2006, with timing to be based on market demand. Capacity-related actions affecting stamping, Service & Parts Operations and powertrain facilities include: The Lansing, Mich., Metal Center will cease production in 2006. The Pittsburgh, Pa., Metal Center will cease production in 2007. The Parts Distribution Center in Portland, Ore., will cease operations in 2006; the Parts Distribution Center in St. Louis, Mo., will cease warehousing activities and will be converted to a collision center facility in 2006; the Parts Processing Center in Ypsilanti, Mich., will cease operations in 2007. One additional Parts Processing Center, to be announced at a later date, will also cease operations in 2007. The competitiveness of all unitizing (packaging) operations at the Pontiac, Drayton Plains, and Ypsilanti Processing Centers in Michigan, as well as portions of the unitizing operations at the Flint, Mich., Processing Center will be evaluated in accordance with the provisions of the GM-UAW national agreement. St. Catharines Ontario Street West powertrain components facility in Ontario, Canada, will cease production in 2008. The Flint, Mich., North 3800 engine facility ("Factory 36") will cease production in 2008. Given the demographics of GM's workforce, the company plans to achieve much of the job reduction via attrition and early retirement programs. GM will work with the leadership of its unions, as any early retirement program would need to be mutually agreed upon. GM hopes to reach an agreement on such a plan as soon as possible. "These are difficult moves that will affect thousands of dedicated GM employees and families, as well as state and local governments," Wagoner said. "We will work our hardest to mitigate that impact." There will be a significant restructuring charge in conjunction with this capacity announcement, and also with any related early retirement program. The details of these charges will be provided when available. Wagoner also said the company has further accelerated its efforts in structural cost reduction, raising the previously indicated $5 billion running rate cost reduction plan in North America to $6 billion by the end of 2006. In addition, GM continues to pursue its plans to target $1 billion in net material cost savings. In total, the plan is to achieve $7 billion of cost reductions on a running rate basis by the end of 2006 - $1 billion above the previously indicated target. "Our collective goal remains the same: to return our North American operations to sustained profitability as soon as possible, thereby helping to ensure a strong General Motors for the future," Wagoner concluded. General Motors Corp. (NYSE: GM), the world's largest automaker, has been the global industry sales leader since 1931. Founded in 1908, GM today employs about 325,000 people around the world. It has manufacturing operations in 32 countries and its vehicles are sold in 200 countries. In 2004, GM sold nearly 9 million cars and trucks globally, up 4 percent and the second-highest total in the company's history. GM's global headquarters are at the GM Renaissance Center in Detroit. More information on GM can be found at www.gm.com. ### Forward-looking Statements In this press release and in related comments by General Motors management, our use of the words "expect, anticipate, design, estimate, forecast, initiative, objective, plan, goal, project, outlook, priorities, target, intend, evaluate, seek, impact" and similar expressions, including references to what the future implementation of our restructuring plan and the tentative health-care agreement with the UAW will achieve, and when, in terms of cost savings and capacity reduction, is intended to identify forward-looking statements. While these statements represent our current judgment on what the future may hold, and we believe these judgments are reasonable, actual results may differ materially due to numerous important factors that are described in GM's most recent report on SEC Form 10-K, which may be revised or supplemented in subsequent reports on SEC Forms 10-Q and 8-K. Such factors include, among others, the following: the ability of GM to realize production efficiencies, to achieve reductions in costs as a result of the restructuring and health-care cost reductions and to implement capital expenditures, all at the levels and times planned by management; the pace of product introductions; significant changes in the competitive environment; changes in laws, regulations and tax rates; the ability of the corporation to achieve reductions in cost and employment levels to realize production efficiencies and implement capital expenditures at levels and times planned by management; changes in relations with unions and employees/retirees and the legal interpretations of the agreements with those unions with regard to employees/retirees; shortages of and price increases for fuel; labor strikes or work stoppages; market acceptance of the corporation's new products; additional credit rating downgrades; and changes in economic conditions, commodity prices, currency exchange rates or political stability. ------------------------ ( The Short Version of the above): "GM builds gasoline hogging, unreliable motorcars and the Japanese & Kia are eating our lunch. GM will continue to build crap cars and trucks that nobody wants and GM Corporate will cut jobs instead of building cars that equal the value of the Honda Civic or Kia Sephia. We will make the Shareholders happy and everyone else can go to hell. Thank You." (Clap! Clap!) - Shareholders applause as GM advances on the NYSE and the Titanic sinks... (FORD IS NEXT.......................just wait and see) How long will it be before GM and Ford must go the way of Chrysler and internationalize. The days of mega domestic corporations is seeing its twilight. Labor costs alone are degrading GM & Ford's competitiveness, and what happens when Red China gears up and starts dumping their cheap auots in the US? Executive salaries and golden umbrellas are taxing the big two's resources brutally. Merging with the likes of Toyota or Nissan appear to be looming in the future. > How long will it be before GM and Ford must go the way > > of Chrysler and internationalize. Perhaps you should consider GM's and Ford's current international operations before making a statement like that. > The days of mega domestic corporations is seeing its twilight. So? That doesn't apply to either Ford or GM. > Labor costs alone are degrading GM & Ford's competitiveness, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > to be looming in the future.  SignatureThe e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to minimize spam. Our true address is of the form che...@prodigy.net. GM can't afford to buy anyone. No one would buy them with their existing union contracts. I expect someone to buy them in chap 11 (couple of years) and dump the union. SignatureJerry > How long will it be before GM and Ford must go the way > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > to be looming in the future. > How long will it be before GM and Ford must go the way > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > to be looming in the future. I will agree with you that executive salaries and umbrellas are out of line. When is the last time you heard of one of these executives being fired for poor performance. However labor cost are only a part of the problem. The unions have had a rough time organizing the satellite companies of Nissan, Toyota and Mercedes, primarily because these companies are located in the good old boy states that have the so called right to work law. The damn fools working for these companies have been brain washed and threatened by there management into beleiving that the union isn't in there best intrest. We neeed to put and end to the so called free trade agreements the Senators and Representatives that push this junk should be shoot for treason. If you took the time to study what free trade is you will find that it really is an extension of Reganomics and the trickle down effect. It didn't work then and it doesn't work now. There is no such thing as free trade and never will be. You point out trading with Red China. We as a country should be ashamed of our selves trading with them. It was the lack of a good industrial base that brought about the downfall of Russia as a communist country. It is time to wake up to the fact that we are at war with the third world countries and they are winning because we are allowing our inducstrial base to be moved offshore. Another thing I would like to point out is that at the present time there in excess of 35,000 paid lobbyists in Washington influence peddling to our legislators. This has to stop and our officials have to get back to representing the American People and this country. It should be illegal for any foreign government or corporation to lobby in Washington. It is illegal in most foreign countries. The bottom line is that the autoworkers aren't over paid. Most of the gains that they have made where thru cost of living raises. If the rest of the country had received these raises as they should have everyone would have been better off. Another thing this country needs is a National Health Care program so that are companies can compete, even good old Red China has a National Health Care Progra. Ave. pay is 65 per hour for unskilled labor - overtime is much greater. All health care and drugs paid for at pretty much 100% (includes retirees). Guaranteed full pay and benefits for 2 years in the case of layoffs. I know some PHD's who would like contracts like this. IMO GM will not survive, because the unions are spoiled and will not give in that much. SignatureJerry >I will agree with you that executive salaries and umbrellas are out of > line. When is the last time you heard of one of these executives being [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > is a National Health Care program so that are companies can compete, > even good old Red China has a National Health Care Progra. >Ave. pay is 65 per hour for unskilled labor - overtime is much greater. Where does this $65 per hour figure come from? When I retired in Feb, I was getting $31.00 per hour. If the 65 figure is to be believed, my benefits cost GM $34.00 per hour, or $68,000 per year based on a 2000 hour work year! >All health care and drugs paid for at pretty much 100% (includes retirees). I pay 50% of all office visits. One of the three prescriptions I take is not covered by my GM health insurance. I pay $130.00 per month for that out of my pocket. >Guaranteed full pay and benefits for 2 years in the case of layoffs. I know >some PHD's who would like contracts like this. Whose fault is it that the PhD's chose a low paying field? >IMO GM will not survive, because the unions are spoiled and will not give in that much. How much should we give? For 40 years, GM told me I would receive these benefits. For 40 years I was promised a pension when I retired. That pension is $1800.00 per month, BTW. One of the plants closing is the Flint, MI, Powertrain North plant where the 3800 V6 is built. They have 633 hourly employees and 102 salary, per today's Detroit papers. That's 6.2 hourly for every salary employee. In the plant I worked in, in the same complex, one department has 1 supervisor for every 4 employees. The plant I used to work in recently eliminated the 2nd shift. All the 2nd shife supervisors were moved to the day shift. There were NO salary cuts. I know that topheavy management is not part of the problem, though. It's always the greedy workers on the plant floor. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant. Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography Web Site: www.destarr.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - PHILIPHD I don't dispute what You say, but how much more pressure can Ford and GM take? Korean vehicle prices are even hurting the Japanese import sales. I protested NAFTA- a certain disaster- when it first was implemented and I was right, but let's face the facts. Most likely the Chinese industries are being bankrolled by American investors. > Most likely the Chinese industries are being > > bankrolled by American investors. More than that, GM, Ford, Chrysler, VW, etc. are building up Chinese car manufacturing capability to ship cars to the USA. GM is already importing cars from Korea. Toyota is building a plant in China to make cars and trucks for the US market, as well according to Automotive News mike >> Most likely the Chinese industries are being >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > manufacturing capability to ship cars to the USA. > GM is already importing cars from Korea. > The bottom line is that the autoworkers aren't over paid. Pay for work done I agree, but high pay for sitting home is killing a shrinking GM. Technically, the plants are not closing - they are just shutting down. They cannot close them without union approval. Also, the workers get paid even though they are not working. Great job - right? SignatureJerry > FOR RELEASE: 2005-11-21 > GM North America to Undergo Major Capacity Reduction [quoted text clipped - 172 lines] > > (FORD IS NEXT.......................just wait and see) > Technically, the plants are not closing - they are just shutting down. > They cannot close them without union approval. Also, the workers get paid > even though they are not working. Great job - right? Not in any union I've ever been a member of. Those guys will be on furlough, with recall rights as per their seniority. Drawing unemployment until they find another job or get recalled to GM. But certainly not drawing a paycheck from GM. I've never been a UAW member but I can't imagine what you're saying here is true. IT'S TRUE!!! They get their regular pay. GM got suckered into these ridiculous contracts when times were good. SignatureJerry >> Technically, the plants are not closing - they are just shutting down. >> They cannot close them without union approval. Also, the workers get [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > drawing a paycheck from GM. I've never been a UAW member but I can't > imagine what you're saying here is true. The full salary and benefits end in Oct 2007. At that time these folks can go on unemployment. SignatureJerry > IT'S TRUE!!! They get their regular pay. GM got suckered into these > ridiculous contracts when times were good. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> certainly not drawing a paycheck from GM. I've never been a UAW member >> but I can't imagine what you're saying here is true. >> Technically, the plants are not closing - they are just shutting down. >> They cannot close them without union approval. Also, the workers get paid [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >drawing a paycheck from GM. I've never been a UAW member but I can't >imagine what you're saying here is true. Actually, Jerry's right. The current UAW contract forbids GM from actually cutting anyone from its payroll until 2007. Right now, from a pure cost perspective, the only way GM will be saving money is through not having to pay non-related labor costs associated with operating the affected plants. > Right now, from a > pure cost perspective, the only way GM will be saving money is through > not having to pay non-related labor costs associated with operating > the affected plants. Plus avoiding the storage costs on unsold production. I'm in the market for a replacement for my '95 Chrysler. After looking at a few GM models- no way. Not even those Korean build models. Current Chrysler and Ford cars don't meet my requirements either. I saw a cars that do suit me at Toyota and Honda. How come they produce the cars I could be happy with? I'm talking function here; not quality. I expect many of the laid off GM workers could get employment down the road at Toyota or Honda. >> Right now, from a >> pure cost perspective, the only way GM will be saving money is through [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I saw a cars that do suit me at Toyota and Honda. How come they produce > the cars I could be happy with? I'm talking function here; not quality. I honestly can not see how people can find a Honda or Toyota an attractive vehicle. I have never seen one I would purchase. Same for Kia. Sure, GM has some ugly-as-sin looking hulks, but they also produce what I think are the most beautiful cars on the planet. Well, the ones normal people can afford anyhow ;-) > I honestly can not see how people can find a Honda or Toyota an attractive > vehicle. I have never seen one I would purchase. Same for Kia. Sure, GM has > some ugly-as-sin looking hulks, but they also produce what I think are the > most beautiful cars on the planet. Well, the ones normal people can afford > anyhow ;-) I used to think the way you do at one time 80 K. Then I bit the bullet and purchased a pre-owned 3 year old Honda Civic sedan with 35K on the clock for my daughter to use at college. That was 11 Years ago. That Honda is still going strong and apart from a brake job, a new muffler and routine oil changes and a coolant flushing, the car has NEVER been in the shop even once for a major repair. It's now got 160K on the clock and still starts and runs like a Singer sewing machine. The body has aged and it "ain't pretty" like it used to be but it still runs 4 my daughter and she loves it. I wish that I could say the same for my wife's Ford Tarus sedan (..scrapped and replaced with a Honda Accord last year) and my GM truck which has had 2 major engine service procedures before it reached 80K miles. I would like to "buy American" via a Ford or a GM product, but the likelyhood is very low at this time as I have found that Honda builds a far more reliable car that Detroit. The only exception to the rule is Subaru, my neighbor has an Outback Wagon that has been plagued by oil leaks and cooling system problems from day one. My mechanic echoed the same, saying that Subaru's engines all have known problems with blown gaskets and oil leaks and not to touch a Subaru product of any kind with a 10' pole. My next truck just may be that Honda pickup their now making. It may be more plastic than metal but if it's anything like my daughter's ultra-reliable Civic it looks like it will be a keeper. It's a damm shame Ford and GM can't design and build cars and trucks which are just as reliable in the long term as Honda. Subaru is another story however and their crap might as well have a GM logo affixed to it. >> I honestly can not see how people can find a Honda or Toyota an > attractive [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > which are just as reliable in the long term as Honda. Subaru is another > story however and their crap might as well have a GM logo affixed to it. I guess these things are all subjective and just one guy's experience. I have a hard time not commenting here, though, with respect to this due to my experience with GM vehicles. I've got a '93 Chev. diesel pickup with 208,000 m. on it that has been without any major problems. Particularly the turbodiesel engine. Absolutely rock solid reliability and this truck has not been coddled at all. Had a '79 and an '83 of the same vehicle with the exact same experience. Even the paint jobs never faded out on me and they still looked good until the last day I had them. The only Jap car I ever owned was back when I was working in Saudi Arabia. A Datsun that spum out a rod bearing and left me beside the road. A friend I worked with bought one of those new Nissan small pickups. He'd had it about a year when he started in our work parking lot and the crank pully broke off at the crankshaft. You read that right. The crankshaft snapped off flush with the front of the engine. I'm not saying this has never happened to a GM vehicle, just that I've never heard of it and I've been around for 56 yrs. I just do not agree at all with this business of GM not building reliable vehicles, but, again, it's just my personal experience. Garrett Fulton >>> I honestly can not see how people can find a Honda or Toyota an >> attractive [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> afford >>> anyhow ;-) When the price of a car approaches $20grand ( or more ) people want more than styling and slogans. You can't say that Japanese cars are priced any cheaper than comparable American sedans. You can't even allude to overseas assembly. Several Japanese brands are assembled in the US And yet when all is said and done, consumers vote with their dollars, and they're rejecting the Detroit product. <rj> >> I honestly can not see how people can find a Honda or Toyota an > attractive [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > which are just as reliable in the long term as Honda. Subaru is another > story however and their crap might as well have a GM logo affixed to it. I can accept that. But, I can also say that I have had relatives (just as yourself) who have had Chevy trucks last well past 400,000 with nothing major done to it, and the other day a friend stopped by with a Cavalier which had already rolled the odometer once, and they were quite pleased with the car as well. As for Honda's, I cant really comment on them as I have never owned one, and I have a strictly GM family (I live in Oshawa Ontario, so a lot of them work at the plant there, and a couple more work for GM dealerships), however my mother's boyfriend does have a Civic. Though, I once again can't comment on it as I have never driven it, and he does not know much about them as he trades it in every 2 or so years. I guess basically, every car company makes the occasional 'pearl' and every company makes the occasional 'lemon'. >>> I honestly can not see how people can find a Honda or Toyota an >> attractive [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > guess basically, every car company makes the occasional 'pearl' and every > company makes the occasional 'lemon'. Hey, I live near Oshawa, too and my husband and I have both worked at GM over 20 years. I buy a new car every couple years and only had one Cavalier many years ago that was a piece of junk. Ironically, I bought it because it had been made in Ohio rather than Mexico. My family's experience has been excellent, as well. Also, we have gotten a few things "goodwilled", i.e. paid for (bearings on a Rendezvous, head gasket on a Venture), after the vehicles were well out of warranty. Sometimes you just have to ask. GM and Toyota share the top quality awards. It is mostly a false perception, based on the past, that GM's quality is poor. The plant they are axing in Oshawa has the best quality in North America, of all the companies. Jane >GM and Toyota share the top quality awards. It is mostly a false >perception, based on the past, that GM's quality is poor. The plant they >are axing in Oshawa has the best quality in North America, of all the >companies. Oshawa - top quality product - closing Buick City - many JD Power awards - gone 3800 V6 - a fantastic engine for years - going away. Sometimes it makes you wonder....... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant. Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography Web Site: www.destarr.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>GM and Toyota share the top quality awards. It is mostly a false >>perception, based on the past, that GM's quality is poor. The plant they [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sometimes it makes you wonder....... Yes, it sure does. Two plants will remain in Oshawa, a second car plant and a truck plant, plus stamping and triaxle, so we're not a ghost town just yet (The axle plant is technically Delphi, although the employees still have bumping rights to the rest of the complex) They need to ditch Wagoner...like, yesterday! Jane > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Retired Shop Rat: 14,647 days in a GM plant. > Now I can do what I enjoy: Large Format Photography > > Web Site: www.destarr.com > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - >>GM and Toyota share the top quality awards. It is mostly a false >>perception, based on the past, that GM's quality is poor. The plant they [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sometimes it makes you wonder....... I read somewhere that the 3800 has been built (in varying styles) for over 40 years, and it is in my opinion the best engine I have ever owned or driven. I get 210 horsepower, 230 torque, all in a 4000 pound car that can do 0-60 in 7.8 seconds and still get 30mpg on the highway, and yet they still want to get rid of the engine. Makes me think that someone from Honda is actually running GM trying to ruin them.... >>>> I honestly can not see how people can find a Honda or Toyota an >>> attractive [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > Venture), after the vehicles were well out of warranty. Sometimes you > just have to ask. I think it depends on the dealership you go to. Some are very co-operative and will assist you in any way they can. > GM and Toyota share the top quality awards. It is mostly a false > perception, based on the past, that GM's quality is poor. The plant they > are axing in Oshawa has the best quality in North America, of all the > companies. Tell me about it. Ticked me off something fierce when I read they were closing that plant. They need to fire that idiot in charge and get the company rolling again. > Jane 80K >>>>> I honestly can not see how people can find a Honda or Toyota an >>>> attractive [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > closing that plant. They need to fire that idiot in charge and get the > company rolling again. Many don't believe it will actually happen. Likely wishful thinking, but we'll see. They will want concessions, especially mandatory overtime. It may also depend on the dollar and other things we have no control over. Jane >> Jane > > 80K <snip> >>> Hey, I live near Oshawa, too and my husband and I have both worked at GM >>> over 20 years. I buy a new car every couple years and only had one [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> closing that plant. They need to fire that idiot in charge and get the >> company rolling again. Quality is definitely a major component to consider, when consolidating operations, but so too is profitablity. In this regard, Oshawa is said to be highly profitable and I have heard that Canadian operations account for some $ 500Million in actual profits, while many other divisions lose Millions. The only problem with the profitability numbers we are hearing for Canada is that intercompany pricing between parent and subsidiaries is fuzzy at the best of times. Any division can be made to appear profitable OR losing money, depending on inter-company pricing and Corporate whims. These decisions are most often tax driven. So it's really hard to know which divisions really are making money. Having said that, GM would have to be "dumb as a post" to close down any profitable division, given the sea of red ink they are mired in. > Many don't believe it will actually happen. Likely wishful thinking, but > we'll see. They will want concessions, especially mandatory overtime. It > may also depend on the dollar and other things we have no control over. > > Jane Jane, on the plus side, there's a lot of time before any job losses are actually scheduled to take place in Oshawa. There are good possibilities for any number of things to happen, including: 1. The Grand Prix manufacturing line could be replaced with a new product line or even an existing product, should it be economically feasible. 2. There is a strong possibility of government intervention at both the Provincial and Federal levels. Hey, we're looking at a Federal election in the new year - let's make it clear to local candidates that we want this on the election platform! 3. Now here's a sore spot with many GM employees, but it's worth mentioning. Employees have to help themselves and set the example for the rest of us. Jane and 80 Knight, I encourage you both to take a drive by the employee parking lots of all the truck and car plants in Oshawa. I did it yesterday (before the snow started last night!) and I was appalled by two things; a) the number of non-GM cars in the employee lot; b) the number of non-North American cars in the employee lot. I would suggest to you that the percentage of Korean cars in the parking lot exceeds the Oshawa average. Christ, if GM employees don't drive their product, why should the rest of the population??? I say this with a certain amount of pain in my heart because I am a true blue GM guy, presently owning 4 GM products and zero non-GM products. > <snip> >>>> Hey, I live near Oshawa, too and my husband and I have both worked at [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > pain in my heart because I am a true blue GM guy, presently owning 4 GM > products and zero non-GM products. I remember once my Dad saying when he worked at the Oshawa plant and the Lada (if memory serves) came out, a couple workers bought one and brought them to work. They finished there shift, and went outside to find there cars destroyed. Not a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you. > I remember once my Dad saying when he worked at the Oshawa plant and the > Lada (if memory serves) came out, a couple workers bought one and brought > them to work. They finished there shift, and went outside to find there > cars destroyed. Not a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you. LMAO! 80 Knight, at risk of sounding like a redneck, that is poetic justice! I think it is unconscionable for an employee of any auto manufacturer to own a vehicle from a competitor, unless of course, it is an older classic. Your Lada story reminds me of my own Lada story. For a short period back in the 80's I was in a carpool with 3 other guys. We all owned small econo-box commuter cars, (I owned a Chevette with an Automatic, so my wife could drive it!)but one of the guys was so embarrassed about driving a Lada, that he tore off the name plates and told every who didn't know better that it was a Fiat! Then we explained to him that a Fiat really wasn't much of an improvement over a Lada. He finally broke down and bought a Chevelle! >> I remember once my Dad saying when he worked at the Oshawa plant and the >> Lada (if memory serves) came out, a couple workers bought one and brought [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > to him that a Fiat really wasn't much of an improvement over a Lada. He > finally broke down and bought a Chevelle! A Chevelle? Now theres a car! Love those things, just wish I could afford one ;-) Anyhow, though I would not have been one of the people out there destroying the Lada (or whichever competitor's car) I would be bitching out the owner of it. If you work for GM, you can damn well buy GM, cause IMHO, if you don't like there cars that much, then you shouldn't be working for them in the first place. > A Chevelle? Now theres a car! Love those things, just wish I could afford > one ;-) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > IMHO, if you don't like there cars that much, then you shouldn't be > working for them in the first place. Amen to that. > I remember once my Dad saying when he worked at the Oshawa plant and the > Lada (if memory serves) came out, a couple workers bought one and brought > them to work. They finished there shift, and went outside to find there cars > destroyed. Not a good idea to bite the hand that feeds you. Ah yes, the dark side of Union Power .... threat, intimidation, property damage, even lethal force. I still remember during the trucking strikes of my youth when union truckers would stand on overpasses and drop rocks on the windshields of any trucks which were still on the road. Killed several people as I recall. That was a formative bit of news in my youth and left a very bad impression of unions ... that and the whole gang involvement bit along with the history of the mob and unions "investing" in Las Vegas in Vegas' early days. John >> I remember once my Dad saying when he worked at the Oshawa plant and the >> Lada (if memory serves) came out, a couple workers bought one and brought [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > involvement bit along with the history of the mob and unions "investing" > in Las Vegas in Vegas' early days. Hey, if the guy drives his Lada into a GM parking lot, it should be destroyed. What about you, John? Will you suffer when the GM closers happen? If not, then shut the hell up. You take your Honda, Toyota and other pieces of foreign crap and drive it all you want. *I* will support the company who I should. The company who I respect, and the company who puts a *lot* of money into my community. Can you say the same? All I have seen from you is trollish behavior. If you hate GM so much then get out of the group, or stop bitching. > Hey, if the guy drives his Lada into a GM parking lot, it should be > destroyed. What about you, John? Will you suffer when the GM closers happen? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > trollish behavior. If you hate GM so much then get out of the group, or stop > bitching. Destroying those Ladas was very stupid. If they had just waited a few years the Ladas would have self destructed and demonstrated their very poor quality. Continuing to support GM when they have demonstrated very poor management is just sticking ones head in the sand. I feel very sorry for the GM workers who are watching their company fold around them, because of very poor management. Many of us (me included) were strong GM supporters and users, but have recently been frustrated with the poor designs they have been marketing. In addition GM importing cars from Korea and soon China simply demonstrates they are off track. IMO the GM workers would be better off if a very well managed company such as Toyota took over the GM plants. Another example of poor management is Stelco. They are a basket case, yet next door Dofasco, the kid on the block, has been doing so well a European company has offered an excess amount of cash to buy them out. Unfortunately company history is full of stories where poor management has caused company failure. The only solution is a complete overhaul of the company. >> Hey, if the guy drives his Lada into a GM parking lot, it should be >> destroyed. What about you, John? Will you suffer when the GM closers [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > has caused company failure. The only solution is a complete overhaul of > the company. Hey, I am all for getting new management and what not into the company. They need new people with new idea's. But, I'm sorry. I can not stand 'non big 3' cars. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia. Heck, I don't like many Chrysler's or Ford's, but I have always liked GM's vehicles. I look at Honda's and they just make me sick. The style (IMHO) is just terrible. Sure, they can get 30Mpg, but so can my Bonneville, and it has a hell of a lot more power, room and luxury. You know something, I honestly don't think anyone can understand what it is like to live in this part of Ontario without growing up here. The Oshawa GM plant is a huge part of this place. It gives a lot of people jobs, and does a lot for the town, and the surrounding ones. Just the mere thought of what is going on actually happening sickens me, because I know the impact it will have on my family, and countless others. Some of you seem to think that working 40 hours a week doing the work these people do for $25 an hour is the easiest thing in the world. Well, go ahead and give it a try. Do it for one week, and then tell me what you think of it. >>> Hey, if the guy drives his Lada into a GM parking lot, it should be >>> destroyed. What about you, John? Will you suffer when the GM closers [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > for $25 an hour is the easiest thing in the world. Well, go ahead and give > it a try. Do it for one week, and then tell me what you think of it. There is definitely a price to be paid for the income and benefits we enjoy. When I started there in '82, you could look forward to getting off the line in about 9 years. With productivity improvements and outsourcing, those days are long gone. Most of us will be on the line almost our whole career and will retire disabled in one way or another. I've had surgeries on both my hands. My husband has had skin rashes from lubricants in the air guns (has been tested at St. Mike's). Not to mention the mind-numbing nature of the work. Fine; we made the choice to work there (I have a science degree, but went to GM because it paid better than contract work for the MNR and because I could forget my job at the end of the day). GM has allowed us a pretty good life and we've been able to invest along the way in case our pensions are lost. There is some "dead wood" in there (as there is anywhere), but they are few and far between. Most of us work our butts off. >>>> Hey, if the guy drives his Lada into a GM parking lot, it should be >>>> destroyed. What about you, John? Will you suffer when the GM closers [quoted text clipped - 68 lines] > There is some "dead wood" in there (as there is anywhere), but they are > few and far between. Most of us work our butts off. Exactly. And that is what some people can not seem to grasp. They think that you just sit there on your butt all day and do nothing, while making $25 an hour. Well, I guess it's easy for someone to say its simple work when they have never done it. > There is some "dead wood" in there (as there is anywhere), but they are few > and far between. Most of us work our butts off. I'm sure you do but management have not been designing and building the cars many people want. I know GM is trying to upgrade their designs now, but it's coming a bit late. >> There is some "dead wood" in there (as there is anywhere), but they are >> few [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > cars many people want. I know GM is trying to upgrade their designs now, > but it's coming a bit late. Agreed. The union has been telling them that for years (I'm not a huge union booster, but I will give credit where due). Jane > But, I'm sorry. I can not stand 'non big 3' > cars. Honda, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia. Heck, I don't like many Chrysler's or > Ford's, but I have always liked GM's vehicles. I look at Honda's and they > just make me sick. The style (IMHO) is just terrible. Sure, they can get > 30Mpg, but so can my Bonneville, and it has a hell of a lot more power, room > and luxury. I agree with you on styling of the Hondas and Toyotas, but being an engineer for me styling follows function. If the function isn't there I'm not interested in even a test drive. The NA car companies go in cycles, unfortunately Chrysler now has nothing to replace my '95 Concord. Since it runs beautifully I can wait it out for a while, even though I'm quite capable financially of buying anytime. I don't even like the styling of the Chrysler 300 and from two weeks driving a rental I know I don't like driving it. However I wouldn't even take a 300 test drive because 25 years of FWD have convinced me that's what I want to stick with. > You know something, I honestly don't think anyone can understand what it is > like to live in this part of Ontario without growing up here. The Oshawa GM [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the easiest thing in the world. Well, go ahead and give it a try. Do it for > one week, and then tell me what you think of it. I'm in agreement with you here as well, but face the facts that GM is putting the company ahead of the workers. GM is closing NA plants while importing more and more GM branded foreign built cars. FYI I won't buy a foreign built car branded by a the big 3. My reason is the quickness then can discontinue that importing and leave one stranded with an orphan vehicle. It's happened before. If I buy an import it will be from a foreign car company importing their own product. >snip< > Another example of poor management is Stelco. > They are a basket case, yet next door Dofasco, the kid on the block, > has been doing so well a European company has offered an excess amount > of cash to buy them out. You've reminded me of another interesting consideration. Dofasco is non-union! Interesting. > >snip< > > Another example of poor management is Stelco. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > You've reminded me of another interesting consideration. Dofasco is > non-union! Interesting. True, but Dofasco's workers benefited from the union contracts at Stelco. Not only is Dofasco non union, I believe it is profit sharing. >> You've reminded me of another interesting consideration. Dofasco is >> non-union! Interesting. > > True, but Dofasco's workers benefited from the union contracts at Stelco. > Not only is Dofasco non union, I believe it is profit sharing. There is no question that Dofasco workers have benefited from union contracts at Stelco over the years. It is noteworthy, however, that the employee profit-sharing program has been offered since 1938! I'd call that pretty forward thinking for its time. Here's a link to this same information, plus the latest word on the $4.8 Billion Canadian offer from ThyssenKrupp of Germany, which has been accepted: http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/29/business/steel.php > There is no question that Dofasco workers have benefited from union > contracts at Stelco over the years. It is noteworthy, however, that the > employee profit-sharing program has been offered since 1938! I'd call that > pretty forward thinking for its time. Yes it was. Another similar forward thinking company was Shaw Brick in Nova Scotia. I believe a past NDP leader came from that Shaw family. > Here's a link to this same information, plus the latest word on the $4.8 > Billion Canadian offer from ThyssenKrupp of Germany, which has been > accepted: > > http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/29/business/steel.php Too bad, I held Dofasco shares as an excellent dividend stock, now I have this up front capital gain. Hard to replace that dividend in today's low yield market. > TORONTO The Canadian steel maker Dofasco has rebuffed a bid from Arcelor and > instead endorsed an offer of 4.8 billion Canadian dollars that it solicited [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Arcelor's bid and is about 40 percent above Dofasco's closing price the day > before Arcelor announced its intentions. At least I expect they'll not move Dofasco out of CDA. > Hey, if the guy drives his Lada into a GM parking lot, it should be > destroyed. What about you, John? Will you suffer when the GM closers happen? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > trollish behavior. If you hate GM so much then get out of the group, or stop > bitching. Actually I own a 2002 Olds Silhouette that I paid my hard earned cash for. I don't hate GM, actually I am very sad about the current situation. I do have a deep disrespect for the use of thuggery to get your way, and trashing a co-workers vehicle because you disagree with his or her purchasing decision is nothing but thuggery. Friends who only give one praise may help a person *feel* better, but it is accurate constructive criticism which carries the power to help a person or organization *be* better. Most of my career was spent making non-Intel microprocessors, but it never occurred to any of us to destroy the home computer of a co-worker who bought something with Intel Inside. I could care less what you think you have seen from me. All I see from you is mindless boosterism and approval of those who use force to get their way. Sounds like you are just another chest pounding thug. Go ahead, yell and scream all you want. It will not do you any good and will probably just contribute to your own poor health. Maybe it is you who need to "get out of the group". This is just an unmoderated usenet newsgroup, hardly a special club :). John >> Hey, if the guy drives his Lada into a GM parking lot, it should be >> destroyed. What about you, John? Will you suffer when the GM closers [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Actually I own a 2002 Olds Silhouette that I paid my hard earned cash for. > I don't hate GM, actually I am very sad about the current situation. No offence, but your posts seem to indicate you have a hatred for GM. > I do have a deep disrespect for the use of thuggery to get your way, and > trashing a co-workers vehicle because you disagree with his or her > purchasing decision is nothing but thuggery. In this instance I would have to disagree. However, if memory serves, the guy's insurance company did buy out the car and he was able to get a new one. > Friends who only give one praise may help a person *feel* better, but it > is accurate constructive criticism which carries the power to help a > person or organization *be* better. In Gm's case, I feel they do need improvement in certain area's, that I will agree too, however I can not stand it when people come on here claiming how they 'don't care' if GM were to go totally belly up. No, you did not do this, but others have. > Most of my career was spent making non-Intel microprocessors, but it never > occurred to any of us to destroy the home computer of a co-worker who > bought something with Intel Inside. Computers are very different then auto's, but how pleased would you and your team have been if other co-workers started bringing Intel computers to work? > I could care less what you think you have seen from me. All I see from > you is mindless boosterism and approval of those who use force to get > their way. Sounds like you are just another chest pounding thug. Actually, I am on this GM group to try and help others who may have problems with there vehicles. I rarely get into this garbage until someone says something that I consider ignorant. > Go ahead, yell and scream all you want. It will not do you any good and > will probably just contribute to your own poor health. Maybe it is you > who need to "get out of the group". This is just an unmoderated usenet > newsgroup, hardly a special club :). > > John By the way, seeing how you did not answer my question, I will assume the answer is no. I on the other hand, as well as many others will suffer a great deal when the shifts are shut down. Most of my family work either in the Oshawa plant or for GM in some capicity. > Actually I own a 2002 Olds Silhouette that I paid my hard earned cash > for. I don't hate GM, actually I am very sad about the current situation. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is accurate constructive criticism which carries the power to help a > person or organization *be* better. We would certainly welcome your recommendations to help GM *be* better. You haven't posted such "constructive criticism". Oh, by the way, input into how a person or organization can *be* better, needn't be criticism at all. It can be friendly advise, without criticism. Hmm, we haven't seen that from you either. It might be wise to "practise what you preach". > Most of my career was spent making non-Intel microprocessors, but it > never occurred to any of us to destroy the home computer of a co-worker > who bought something with Intel Inside. That's because they didn't park their computers in the company lot every day to put salt in the wound! *lol* You might have felt differently if your company had fallen on hard economic times and you had faced the prospect of being laid off, while your coworkers continued to bring in their computers with "Intel Inside" every day and flaunted Intel's superior technology. That's the comparison you have to consider. You have to walk in the same shoes as the GM employees. > I could care less what you think you have seen from me. All I see from > you is mindless boosterism and approval of those who use force to get [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who need to "get out of the group". This is just an unmoderated usenet > newsgroup, hardly a special club :). You're right, it's not all about you John. I couldn't agree more. What made you even think it was? We couldn't give a damn about you and your "mindless" drivel. > John > <snip> >>>> Hey, I live near Oshawa, too and my husband and I have both worked at [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > "dumb as a post" to close down any profitable division, given the sea of > red ink they are mired in. All true. >> Many don't believe it will actually happen. Likely wishful thinking, but >> we'll see. They will want concessions, especially mandatory overtime. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > 1. The Grand Prix manufacturing line could be replaced with a new product > line or even an existing product, should it be economically feasible. Could happen. They'll want the mandatory overtime deal back (the union got rid of it after GM abused it) and possibly 2-tier wages. I would vote for both to save the place, even though no one in my family will be laid off, due to our seniority. > 2. There is a strong possibility of government intervention at both the > Provincial and Federal levels. Hey, we're looking at a Federal election > in the new year - let's make it clear to local candidates that we want > this on the election platform! I already wrote to McGuinty and copied my MPP John O'Toole (PC). I was disgusted with McG's initial reaction...that it was no big deal because they were getting so much auto investment elsewhere. He's since changed his tune, so I'm sure he didn't only hear from me! > 3. Now here's a sore spot with many GM employees, but it's worth > mentioning. Employees have to help themselves and set the example for the > rest of us. Jane and 80 Knight, I encourage you both to take a drive by > the employee parking lots of all the truck and car plants in Oshawa. I park in it every day, so I don't have to do that, :). I did it yesterday > (before the snow started last night!) and I was appalled by two things; a) > the number of non-GM cars in the employee lot; b) the number of non-North [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > because I am a true blue GM guy, presently owning 4 GM products and zero > non-GM products. I know there are a lot of non-GM cars. The union was after one of the company Drs, as he was driving a Beemer and parking inside the gates! In St. Catherines, they actually made a rule that you had to park in the "back forty" if you drove something else; we should do the same here. If times get reeeally bad, you may see some vandalism happen to some of those cars. I've heard of a few minor cases already. Myself and my husband both work there and only buy GM; it is taking the bread out of our own mouths not to. I'm surprised so many can't see that! My father was a Superintendent back in the day and he said any salaried personnel drove GM, or they didn't work for him. Jane >> Quality is definitely a major component to consider, when consolidating >> operations, but so too is profitablity. In this regard, Oshawa is said to [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > for both to save the place, even though no one in my family will be laid > off, due to our seniority. Jane, it's refreshing to see that someone like yourself would be willing to make concessions that would help others, but concessions which offer no direct benefit to you. That's "Big-Picture" thinking and I applaud you. >> 2. There is a strong possibility of government intervention at both the >> Provincial and Federal levels. Hey, we're looking at a Federal election [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > they were getting so much auto investment elsewhere. He's since changed > his tune, so I'm sure he didn't only hear from me! Dalton does not impress! He speaks out of both sides of his mouth. His knee-jerk reactions are usually on the wrong side of major issues, but then his cronies set him on the right track. I've met O'Toole several times and I think if his constituents push him, he'll speak up for the community. But he really hasn't done a great job so far, in my humble opinion. >> 3. Now here's a sore spot with many GM employees, but it's worth >> mentioning. Employees have to help themselves and set the example for the [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Jane The employee vehicle issue has always been a sore point with me. I think that any non-GM vehicle should be parked at the Oshawa Centre and the employee could walk or catch the bus from there! *lol* I work for a major Canadian corporation which provides company vehicles to senior executives and we are advised that if we want a company vehicle, our vehicle must be manufactured by GM, Ford or Chrysler. And I wholeheartedly support that policy. I just happen to have been partial to GM all my life. My thoughts and best wishes are with all GM employees at this time. >>> Quality is definitely a major component to consider, when consolidating >>> operations, but so too is profitablity. In this regard, Oshawa is said [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > to make concessions that would help others, but concessions which offer no > direct benefit to you. That's "Big-Picture" thinking and I applaud you. The OT thing would actually be a detriment to me, as I hate overtime! I always said I would never vote for mandatory again...the again, during the first go-round I had an infant at home. It would be easier now that he's a teenager! I'm not all altruism, though. The pension I hope to collect in 6 years needs a workforce to fund it... >>> 2. There is a strong possibility of government intervention at both the >>> Provincial and Federal levels. Hey, we're looking at a Federal election [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > knee-jerk reactions are usually on the wrong side of major issues, but > then his cronies set him on the right track. Exactly what I believe happened this time. I've met O'Toole several times and I > think if his constituents push him, he'll speak up for the community. But > he really hasn't done a great job so far, in my humble opinion. No, he hasn't really. >>> 3. Now here's a sore spot with many GM employees, but it's worth >>> mentioning. Employees have to help themselves and set the example for [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > My thoughts and best wishes are with all GM employees at this time. Thank you. > The OT thing would actually be a detriment to me, as I hate overtime! I > always said I would never vote for mandatory again...the again, during the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'm not all altruism, though. The pension I hope to collect in 6 years > needs a workforce to fund it... LMAO! Common sense at its best! Best of Luck to all of you. I'll also be in your corner, for what that's worth. I'd be lost without my GM vehicles. >>>>>> I honestly can not see how people can find a Honda or Toyota an >>>>> attractive [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > we'll see. They will want concessions, especially mandatory overtime. It > may also depend on the dollar and other things we have no control over. I think changed are coming for GM, but I think that the people on this group claiming the company will fall are just being idiots. > Jane 80K Who cares if GM closes plants. Workers are overpaid for doing jobs trained monkeys can do. They want benefits and all sorts of perks not deserved by blue collar workers. GM designs the ugliest cars (exc vette) with the cheapest interior plastics. I wouldnt buy one. GM even had to use an Isuzu Trooper to win the Race Across Australia. Instead of greedy workers asking for more, they should accept a pay freeze and tell management to put the money into buying better components then quality will rise and then sales will too. Why is it that GM and Ford and Chrysler for that matter, can't seem to build a solid reputation for a "type" of car. I mean Honda, Toyota have the reputation for being reliability/quality leaders. Subaru as a AWD and reliability leader, Volvo as a safety leader etc. Matbe the big three are trying to be all things to all people with the result of being only mediocre to non-pragmatic people. I research what I buy, before I buy it. I wouldn't touch a GM regardless of features-for-the-buck. Chrysler and Ford...Ditto. I'm glad GM had to sell off it's FHI (Subaru) interests. It only raises the Subaru name by doing so. GM is crap and until they figure out that long-term proven results with their vehicles will translate into market share. Bad results-declining market share. They cut their own throat with all of the heavy discounting, insulting advertising and shitty cars. Good riddance as far as I'm concerned. > Who cares if GM closes plants. Workers are overpaid for doing jobs > trained monkeys can do. They want benefits and all sorts of perks not [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > freeze and tell management to put the money into buying better > components then quality will rise and then sales will too. Your are entitled to you own opinion but it is after all that of a minority. The fact is more buyers prefer the vehicles from GM Ford and Chrysler than prefer either Toyotas or Hondas. Number one GM, sell three times as many vehicles as number four or five Toyota or Honda. Number two Ford, sells more than twice as many vehicles as Toyota or Honda Chrysler sell half again as many as Toyota. With all of the high quality, well built vehicles, offered by GM, Ford and Chrysler today a prudent buyer is not going to spend 20% to 30% more to buy a Toyota or Honda mike hunt > Why is it that GM and Ford and Chrysler for that matter, can't seem to > build a solid reputation for a "type" of car. I mean Honda, Toyota have [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > throat with all of the heavy discounting, insulting advertising and shitty > cars. Good riddance as far as I'm concerned. >Your are entitled to you own opinion but it is after all that of a minority. >The fact is more buyers prefer the vehicles from GM Ford and Chrysler than >prefer either Toyotas or Hondas. Number one GM, sell three times as many >vehicles as number four or five Toyota or Honda. Last time I checked, Toyota is #2 and quickly closing. Were, in your dreams? ;) Six months sales figures individual vehicles . Ford F-Series 432,969 . Chevrolet Silverado 322,907 . Dodge Ram pickup 223,609 . Toyota Camry 213,625 . Honda Accord 192,106 . Ford Explorer 168,059 . Honda Civic 162,483 . Ford Taurus 144,035 . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 . Dodge Caravan 131,367 mike >>Your are entitled to you own opinion but it is after all that of a >>minority. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Last time I checked, Toyota is #2 and quickly closing. > Were, in your dreams? ;) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 > . Dodge Caravan 131,367 Talk about using figured to lie Try looking at over all sales. Signature-------------------------------------------------------- Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read RV and Camping FAQ can be found at http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv Toyota sells just over 10% of the vehicles sold in the US, Honda even less In total vehicle sales GM sells three times as many in the US as Toyota. Ford sells more than twice as many and Chrysler sell nearly half again as many as Toyota. Both GM and Ford sell more light trucks, including SUVs, than Toyota sells cars and trucks combined. In 2005 GM, Ford and Chrysler sold around 55% of all the vehicles sold in the US. ALL of the numerous others from Japan, Europe and Korea sold around 45% combined. Do a search and educate yourself before you post again on a subject of which you have little or no knowledge, WBMA. mike hunt >> Were, in your dreams? ;) >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Try looking at over all sales. > Toyota sells just over 10% of the vehicles sold in the US, Honda even less > In total vehicle sales GM sells three times as many in the US as Toyota. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and educate yourself before you post again on a subject of which you have > little or no knowledge, WBMA. I yield, you will cherry pick your facts to prove your points. Signature-------------------------------------------------------- Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read RV and Camping FAQ can be found at http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv >>Toyota sells just over 10% of the vehicles sold in the US, Honda even less >>In total vehicle sales GM sells three times as many in the US as Toyota. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I yield, you will cherry pick your facts to prove your points. Right now Toyota in number two behind GM in auto sales and closing the gap (they just passed Ford and Chrysler is a distant 4th). They have not been at 10% for a long time Signature----------------- www.thesnoman.com > Were, in your dreams? ;) > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > . Chevrolet Impala 139,460 > . Dodge Caravan 131,367 Is that a Toyota car I see as #1 car and Honda as #2! <:) I see why your are confused by advertising and semantics. Yes, Toyota sells more individual brand cars, but over half the vehicles sold in the US are light trucks and SUVs. GM and Ford sell more trucks than Toyota and Honda sell cars AND trucks combined. In fact GM and Ford sell more light TRUCKS ALONE than Toyota and Honda sell cars AND trucks combined . GM sells more trucks and CARS than any other brand except Ford. While both GM and Ford sell more trucks and CARS than Toyota or Honda, Toyota and Honda sell more cars under ONE label than GM or Ford. The best selling vehicle of one brand in the US is the Ford F Series, but GM actually sells more trucks with its several brands. If one went by advertising one might think Toyota offers the most vehicles with the best fuel economy. The fact is GM sells over 19 vehicles that get thirty MPG or better, Toyota only offers nine and Honda even less GM even has V6 equipped vehicles that can match some of the 4cy vehicles of some import brands. ;) mike >> Were, in your dreams? ;) >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Is that a Toyota car I see as #1 car and Honda as #2! <:) > Your are entitled to you own opinion but it is after all that of a minority. > The fact is more buyers prefer the vehicles from GM Ford and Chrysler than [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > offered by GM, Ford and Chrysler today a prudent buyer is not going to spend > 20% to 30% more to buy a Toyota or Honda You have blinded eyes and are looking just inside your little world. Many GM cars are very behind Toyota, Honda and others on design. Toyota will soon be the largest car manufacturer in the world, the customers obviously like Toyota's, Honda's, etc. designs and quality, because as you state they generally cost more, but the difference is much less than you suggest and is decreasing. Recently the big 3 have seen dropping sales, while Toyota, Honda, etc. have had steady sales increases. The customers are talking with their dollars. For example one thing I definitely need in my cars is a full size matching spare. GM's recent designs (even of their smaller SUVs) don't have a wheel well capable of holding a full size spare, while most Toyotas actually include a matching full size spare. GM has been trying to catch up in design in the last few years, but their cost structure is killing them. The income from GMAC and retained cash has been keeping GM above water. Those days are quickly ending. Where do I stand on my car purchases? In the 50s I switched to imports being very unhappy with the 50s cars; back to big 3 cars in the 60s; back to imports in the 70s; have bought big 3 cars since 1979. Unfortunately I don't see a current big 3 car product that meets my requirements. However most Toyotas, Hondas, etc. are no longer imports to NAFTA, so my choice of a non import is much larger than previously! You are free to spend your money wherever you wish ;) mike >> Your are entitled to you own opinion but it is after all that of a >> minority. [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > However most Toyotas, Hondas, etc. are no longer imports to NAFTA, so > my choice of a non import is much larger than previously! > Your are entitled to you own opinion but it is after all that of a minority. > The fact is more buyers prefer the vehicles from GM Ford and Chrysler than [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > mike hunt So we should eat sh!t and like it because 100 billion flies can't be wrong? ip freely > Your are entitled to you own opinion but it is after all that of a minority. > The fact is more buyers prefer the vehicles from GM Ford and Chrysler than [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > offered by GM, Ford and Chrysler today a prudent buyer is not going to spend > 20% to 30% more to buy a Toyota or Honda I guess that you must only be talking about in North America, because your numbers on not even close on a worldwide scale. John > Your are entitled to you own opinion but it is after all that of a > minority. The fact is more buyers prefer the vehicles from GM Ford and [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > built vehicles, offered by GM, Ford and Chrysler today a prudent buyer is > not going to spend 20% to 30% more to buy a Toyota or Honda Ford and GM either cannot, or do not want to produce a quality passenger car. This is a fact! I tend to believe they have lost the capacity to produce competitive quality passenger cars a long time ago. They have been losing market- -share in all metropolitan areas, for years now, and in some places like California it is almost unthinkable to buy a GM or Ford passenger car product. What keeps these two zombies alive is three things. First, they own some foreign brands, and also sell some of their cars to unsophisticated consumers in places like China, Eastern Europe, Middle East, etc. Second, they control rental companies to whom they sell a lot of their passenger junk. Third, their extensive network of dealerships in rural and semi-rural areas gives them a certain degree of monopoly in those markets. Consumers in rural America just have no alternative but to buy their products. If Nissan, Honda, Toyota, and others had even a half-decent network of dealerships in small town America GM and Ford would be wiped out of the passanger car bussiness altogether!!! The foreign, and rental business, plus a few niche products like the Corvette, Mustang, would not be enough to keep Ford and GM in car manufacturing. Both companies would become pick-up truck and van/suv manufacturers exclusively. MN Like said your are entitled to you own opinion but I stopped buying foreign cars some time ago because they cost much more than their domestic competitors cars. I have yet to find any of my current, or previous domestic cars, to be of poor quality. To the contrary, the have all been well built quality cars that perform as good or better they any foreign cars I have owned. I no longer need to put up with the arrogance of foreign car dealers who seem to think they are doing me a favor buy letting me buy one of their overpriced cars. More buyers feel as I do since they buy more GM, Ford and Chrysler vehicles than Toyota or Honda and THAT my friend is a fact ;) mike >> Your are entitled to you own opinion but it is after all that of a >> minority. The fact is more buyers prefer the vehicles from GM Ford and [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > MN |
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