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Car Forum / GMC Cars / December 2005GM Styling...the real Killer
Is it really any wonder that GM is sinking like the Titanic? Other than the Intake Gasket Failure infestation problem the next big problem is GM styling. I used to love the look of the previous coke bottle body style of the Grand Prix as was ready to buy one, but then they came out with the current body style GP, and everytime I see those ugly things they remind me of a hi-top sneaker with wheels. Then a few years ago they showed the prototype of the Pontiac G6 which I thought was a real beauty, so I decided to wait and get one but instead they abandoned the protype designed and released this boring monstrousity of a car that they refer to as sleek. The sedan is a fat dumpy looking turtle that only a woman could love. The very few I have seen on the road were all driven by women. Then they released the G6 coupe which is a cross between a Toyota Solaris and a Pontiac Sunfire thats been jacked up in the back. Whats up with this jacked up in the back rear end look that so many GM cars have? Doesnt GM realize by now that the 70s are over and people are no longer putting wide 60 series tires on cars that require the rears to be lifted to clear the wheel wells?? If GM were paying attention they would see that people like cars lower and sleeker. Another big failure is the GTO name plate being put on a foreign car, and an ugly car at that. Then we have what was known as the Aztek failure, another costly mistake. Pontiac damn near did a recall on that one just for being ugly. How long did that one last before being dropped...2 years? So now what does Pontiac now have thats worth looking at?? The Solstice...which is probably fun, but impractical for the average buyer. Unless Pontiac has some major offering in the next year or 2, then Pontiac may be next to hit the chopping block which is ashame because I grew up loving Pontiacs in their hey day. But you cant blame anyone but GM...seems to me its just as easy to build a beautiful car as it is to build an ugly one. Sounds like you need to find a venture capitalist to help you execute your styling concepts. Besides, GM still has an extra division or two to give up before they really need to get serious. Personally, I can't speak about styling. Give me a box that carries things, gets fair mileage, and lasts a long time and I am happy. >Sounds like you need to find a venture capitalist to help you execute >your styling concepts. Besides, GM still has an extra division or two >to give up before they really need to get serious. >Personally, I can't speak about styling. Give me a box that carries >things, gets fair mileage, and lasts a long time and I am happy. At the end of the day, you hit the nail on the head. I believe the majority of NEW car buyers ( those who GM courts) feel the same way. I know I do. We have my '93 Eldo which is a money pit, my wife's '93 Camry which has cost just $100 in non-maintenance repairs since new, and my '04 Express van which has had two fluid leaks and has just 3500 miles on it. Unless I start hearing about GM owners doing the dance of joy in the streets over quality, my next car will be a Lexus. > Personally, I can't speak about styling. Give me a box that carries > things, gets fair mileage, and lasts a long time and I am happy. Reliability is the backbone of any car manufacture. No one wants to sink >$20 grand into any product that do not give the best return on investment. Unless the product generates so much excitement that people are willing to put up with the repairs. Example: Harley Davidsons. I think GM has come a long way on delivering reliability, however, they have not started making exciting products yet. GM is not a car enthusiast company. Read all the review comparing the Pontiac Solstice to the Miata. Across the board, the Miata wins on handling and road feel. By that I don't mean just road grip. I mean driver feedback, responsiveness and precision. Even a GM spokesman admits that their car is different from the Miata in that it is designed to isolate the driver from the road. Their car is meant for a different type of customer. I wonder what kind of customer would like a car that has no road feel what so ever. It would have to be a customer who hates driving, and go to great lengths to isolate himself from the road. What kind of car company would build a car that purposely don't give you feedback from the road because they want to isolate you from the driving experience. I have to conclude it must be a company that thinks of driving as painful, and don't want anything to remind you that you are driving a car. They themselves must also hate cars, and think of them as a necessary evil. I don't care how the car looks. Given two cars with equal reliability, I would pick the car designed by people who are enthusiastic about their product. Every time I get into a GM car, I am reminded that driving is painful, so all road feel must be isolated from the driver. The seat feels like a living room couch. Everything are soft and have that isolated feel to it. Soon, you understand and share their pain in driving a cars. There is no excitement here. Ironically, GM spends millions trying to tell people that Pontiac is exciting, but then their product tells you that driving is painful. Best GM can do is to put quality steering components in their cars, make the silky smooth. Design suspension unique for each car. Is just so pathetic to hear that the rear suspension from the Solstice comes from an SUV. Miata would never do that, because engineers who love driving designed that car. Once the new look of Solstice fades, is going to be another failure because simply there is no excitement there. Is like driving a car designed by a little old lady. It will get you there, but it treats you like a frail old man that can't stand any road feel in the steering wheel. >>Personally, I can't speak about styling. Give me a box that carries >>things, gets fair mileage, and lasts a long time and I am happy. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > to remind you that you are driving a car. They themselves must also hate > cars, and think of them as a necessary evil. You got it. "GM - the car manufacturer for people who hate cars." That could well be their slogan... nate  Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel > You got it. "GM - the car manufacturer for people who hate cars." That > could well be their slogan... GM= G--dam motoring! >> must be a company that thinks of driving as painful, and don't want >> anything to remind you that you are driving a car. They themselves must >> also hate cars, and think of them as a necessary evil. > > You got it. "GM - the car manufacturer for people who hate cars." That > could well be their slogan... I believe that's already taken. >> Personally, I can't speak about styling. Give me a box that carries >> things, gets fair mileage, and lasts a long time and I am happy. > > Reliability is the backbone of any car manufacture. No one wants to sink > >$20 grand into any product that do not give the best return on > >investment. I think you meant to say "service in exchange for that pile of sunk cost". Cars aren't investments. >> Personally, I can't speak about styling. Give me a box that carries >> things, gets fair mileage, and lasts a long time and I am happy. <snip> >Even a GM spokesman >admits that their car is different from the Miata in that it is designed to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >to remind you that you are driving a car. They themselves must also hate >cars, and think of them as a necessary evil. I live in San Diego - a densely populated urban environment where I find driving to be rather less than fun: lots of traffic and lots of rude drivers. The majority of my driving is to and from work. I just want to accomplish that feat in 1. safety, and 2. comfort. I do not need to have a flashy, expensive, road-responsive automobile to sit in while grid-locked. I also do not want to feel the ruts in the road that my taxes should be paying to fix. If I lived on some sparsely driven, curvy mountain road, then a Miata would be great fun, but down here in motoring hell, you bet I want to be isolated from the driving experience! When my Lumina wears out I am going to get a new one. Best Regards, Mark Buckles grid-locked in San Diego > Sounds like you need to find a venture capitalist to help you execute > your styling concepts. Besides, GM still has an extra division or two > to give up before they really need to get serious. > Personally, I can't speak about styling. Give me a box that carries > things, gets fair mileage, and lasts a long time and I am happy. The point the poster is making is don't make a box and then call it sleek. If you make a dependable car then its just as easy to wrap it in a nice package as oppossed to Blah Ze'. Thats what sells cars, it doesnt take a rocket scientist to understand that. Styling is what gave us $250 headlamps which used to cost all of $8 at K-Mart for the rectangular, square, or round take your pick. Styling is what makes your car looks dated exactly on the day you make the last payment. No, there is one ideal configuration for every vehicle genre: sedan, station wagon, pickup, van. Think of Boeing, Lockheed, Douglas, Tupolev, and Airbus airliners. Can't tell one from another unless I read the writing on the tails. There's a reason why all airliners look alike. When you finally figure out why, you will know why all cars should look alike as well, except for the paint job. I don't think the styling in general is so bad (well except the Aztek). > Is it really any wonder that GM is sinking like the Titanic? Other than the > Intake Gasket Failure infestation problem the next big problem is GM [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > hey day. But you cant blame anyone but GM...seems to me its just as easy to > build a beautiful car as it is to build an ugly one. Couldn't have said it better. There was a time when Pontiac was known for style. Who doesn't know a 67 GTO or a 73 GTO Judge. The image pops right to mind. Then again a Black Bandit. Don't even need to name the car (TA BY the way). A 69 Bonnie. Even a 59 Chieftan. It started with the 80's box-styling that was the big downward spin. Granted. They started to do something right in the early 90's. I think to myself that my old 95 GA GT has a sexier look to her than the generic ricer look of the new G6. Coming down the road can't tell a G6 from a GP now. I really liked the style of the coke-bottle GP also. The Aztek. OMG. What happened to the TransSport or even the Montana? And with GM in general I couldn't believe the "artistic" styling they came out with when the Aztek came out. Caddy's used to have class. Now they're a joke. And the style carried over to the trucks. I think Dodge and Ford had the right idea. Go retro. The new charger. The 300, the retro Mustang. The remade T=bird. Now imagine taking a 2004 GA and making some body mods to make it look like the 73 Judge. Or even the GP to the Judge. That'd be sweet, and doable. Taking a good name and plastering it on a piece of crap is still a piece of crap. Remember the last incarnation of the GTO, that horrid little hatchback that looked almost like the Aztek. > Couldn't have said it better. That's a sad commentary on your linguistic ability, my short-peckered friend! > There was a time when Pontiac was known > for style. Who doesn't know a 67 GTO or a 73 GTO Judge. Well, that senstence made sense until you mentioned the Judge! That was possibly the fattest ugliest GM car ever made! Give your head a shake Cage-man! > The image pops > right to mind. Then again a Black Bandit. Don't even need to name the > car (TA BY the way). Ewwww! That was a Gino car that most of us would rather forget! What's wrong with you? > A 69 Bonnie. Oh man! Another fat cow! How can a man with such poor taste even consider commenting on the topic of "Styling"??? > Even a 59 Chieftan. It started with > the 80's box-styling that was the big downward spin. No Cage-Man! It started with the Judge and its bulbous ilk!!! > Granted. They > started to do something right in the early 90's. I think to myself that > my old 95 GA GT has a sexier look to her than the generic ricer look of > the new G6. What was that old Every Brothers tune? "Dream, Dream, Dream, Dream"!!! > Coming down the road can't tell a G6 from a GP now. Hey Cage-Man, a lot of people have poor eye sight. Don't let it get you down. > I really > liked the style of the coke-bottle GP also. We finally agree on something Cage-Man! > The Aztek. OMG. What > happened to the TransSport or even the Montana? And with GM in general I > couldn't believe the "artistic" styling they came out with when the > Aztek came out. Cage-Man! I agree with every comment here! Wow! We can get along! > Caddy's used to have class. Right again Cage-Man! They had a little class. Very little! > Now they're a joke. Cage-Man, you got that back asswards! Now they have class! Those sharp edges of the STS, CTS and SLR are hot! > And the > style carried over to the trucks. I think Dodge and Ford had the right > idea. Go retro. The new charger. The 300, The "new Charger" isn't worthy of carrying that name! It is an abomination! Cage-Man - a 4 door Charger!!! Get real!!! And that awful 300 is a complete abortion, if you'll excuse the term! That last 300 series Chrysler that was worthy of the logo was made in the 50's! That box they call a 300 now is completely square and lacking in aerodynamics! Not to mention, the so-called "hemi" option isn't even a hemi, because IT DOES NOT HAVE HEMISPHERICAL COMBUSTION CHAMBERS!!! A COMPLETE AND UTTER MARKETING FRAUD!!!! > the retro Mustang. Ya got me there Cage-Man - I have a soft spot for that sweet retro "Stang! > The remade > T=bird. I really liked it too, but it was overpriced and didn't sell too well and was discontinued. > Now imagine taking a 2004 GA and making some body mods to make > it look like the 73 Judge. Or even the GP to the Judge. That'd be sweet, > and doable. Oh puleeeeze Cage-Man! I just had a late dinner! The 2004 GA's & GP's both surpass that fat ladybug style of the Goat Judge! Give us all a break! > Taking a good name and plastering it on a piece of crap is > still a piece of crap. Remember the last incarnation of the GTO, that > horrid little hatchback that looked almost like the Aztek. Yeh, it was called "The Judge"! Ugh! snip > Yeh, it was called "The Judge"! Ugh! I agree a little bit of both of you. On the one hand, I think Cadillac styling is pretty successful in the market place. They have new products. Pontiac does not. Also, as the other argued, I can't see any difference between a Grand Am, a Grand Prix, and a Bonneville. As a result, two of them aren't built any more. They were superfluous. GM has not been very interested in coming up with products for Pontiac and Buick. Cadillac, comparitively, is a priority. Pontiac is getting one real product, the solstice. It looks good, but of course I doubt they'll sell very many, because the 2-seater market is pretty small, and there are a bunch of cars in that market. It's kind of amazing, really, that Pontiac managed to make it through the SUV years without an SUV. They have never had one. Even Buick has them. Cadillac has 4! > > Couldn't have said it better. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > possibly the fattest ugliest GM car ever made! Give your head a shake > Cage-man! Well he may have a short pecker, but you have a pecker for brain if you call the 69 Judge GTO ugly. > > The image pops > > right to mind. Then again a Black Bandit. Don't even need to name the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Oh man! Another fat cow! How can a man with such poor taste even > consider commenting on the topic of "Styling"??? Yep you got a pecker for a brain alright. > > Even a 59 Chieftan. It started with > > the 80's box-styling that was the big downward spin. [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > hemi, because IT DOES NOT HAVE HEMISPHERICAL COMBUSTION CHAMBERS!!! A > COMPLETE AND UTTER MARKETING FRAUD!!!! Though you have a pecker for a brain you are right about the new Dodge Charger, its got the front end of a truck. And what a.shole thought a sedan would look better than a coupe? > > the retro Mustang. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I really liked it too, but it was overpriced and didn't sell too well > and was discontinued. Agree again the T-bird was very very kewl, but not kewl enough for the price. > > Now imagine taking a 2004 GA and making some body mods to make > > it look like the 73 Judge. Or even the GP to the Judge. That'd be sweet, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Yeh, it was called "The Judge"! Ugh! The Judge was indeed kewl, very kewl indeed. > Well he may have a short pecker, but you have a pecker for brain if you > call the 69 Judge GTO ugly. Here ya go Gizmo, have another look! If you think this is sweet, then you'd be considered handsome! Link: http://www.pontiacserver.com/69judgead.html >>>The image pops >>>right to mind. Then again a Black Bandit. Don't even need to name the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Yep you got a pecker for a brain alright. Well Gizmo, one of us has a pecker for a brain! You'd better have another look at the '69 Bonnie! Ugly as hell! Here's a link: http://www.pontiacserver.com/69bonne_ad.html >>Yeh, it was called "The Judge"! Ugh! > > The Judge was indeed kewl, very kewl indeed. Man, your eyesight must be poor! Have another look: http://www.pontiacserver.com/69judgead.html > > Well he may have a short pecker, but you have a pecker for brain if you > > call the 69 Judge GTO ugly. > > > Here ya go Gizmo, have another look! If you think this is sweet, then > you'd be considered handsome! Link: > http://www.pontiacserver.com/69judgead.html Yeh! Like the ad says "All Rise" for the Judge! > >>>The image pops > >>>right to mind. Then again a Black Bandit. Don't even need to name the [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > http://www.pontiacserver.com/69bonnead.html I would love to get my hands on one of those old Bonnys. > >>Yeh, it was called "The Judge"! Ugh! > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.pontiacserver.com/69judgead.html >>>Well he may have a short pecker, but you have a pecker for brain if > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > I would love to get my hands on one of those old Bonnys. Beava, we lost all respect for you when June Cleava said to Ward, "Gee Ward, you were a little rough on the Beava last night!" >>>>Yeh, it was called "The Judge"! Ugh! >>> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >>http://www.pontiacserver.com/69judgead.html >Couldn't have said it better. There was a time when Pontiac was known >for style. Who doesn't know a 67 GTO or a 73 GTO Judge. '73 Judge? No such animal. The last year for the Judge was 1971. The '73 and '74 GTO's were corporate, compromised cars just like cars today. The last real GTO was 1972. The '74 GTO was nothing more than a Chebbie Nova with a shaker scoop. It was powered by a bottom of the line Pontiac 350 no less. I'm afraid the days of GM being on top are a thing of the past. The decision to go cookie cutter "badge engineered" cars in 1982 was the biggest mistake. They basically killed off brand loyalty and competition between divisions. 20+ years later they are paying the price. Thank then GM CEO Roger Smith for that one(and countless others ...). Signature_________________________________________________________________ Dennis Smith -1971 Trans Am - 455 H.O. - M21 4speed - Cameo white/blue stripe- -1973 Trans Am - 455 - TH400 auto - Buccaneer red- -1984 Trans Am - 5.0 L - TH700R4 auto - Royal blue/silver aero- _________________________________________________________________ > In article <8oCdnRRNzOO5ID3enZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@nstci.com>, cage47@vonl.com > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that > one(and countless others ...). I have very fond memories of the 1967 GTO I once owned. Now this is my favorite Pontiac, and it is in MY garage. 1965 2+2, sorry to say it isn't the high HP motor or a 4 speed but it'll do for me. Pictures are scanned (before we had a digital camera). http://www.nanettes-place.com/terryspontiac.htm >> In article <8oCdnRRNzOO5ID3enZ2dnUVZ_sWdnZ2d@nstci.com>, cage47@vonl.com >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > I have very fond memories of the 1967 GTO I once owned. > Now this is my favorite Pontiac, and it is in MY garage. 1965 2+2, sorry to > say it isn't the high HP motor or a 4 speed but it'll do for me. Pictures [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > > \\ Thats a sweet car...one tip though...remove the chrome from around the rear fenders and add some fender skirts which were available for that year. T, Now that's a Pontiac ! Best looking full size 65 & 66 IMHO. Neighbor has a 67 2+2 428 hardtop. Neighbor across street has 65 Cat sedan. Harryface 05 Park Avenue, 32,839 91 Bonneville LE 304,991 > Now this is my favorite Pontiac, and it is in MY garage. 1965 2+2, sorry > to say it isn't the high HP motor or a 4 speed but it'll do for me. > Pictures are scanned (before we had a digital camera). > > http://www.nanettes-place.com/terryspontiac.htm Very nice!! You should never apologize for that car, it looks fantastic! Are those the turbine mags on it? Roy Do you mean the 8 lug wheels that Pontiac had back then ? No they are not . I said the pictures weren't high quality ! LOL What was on the car in the pictures are 67 Chevy Impala SS wire hub caps . Took them off my brothers Chevy before the repo man came, long ago. I do have a set of 8 Lugs sitting in the garage waiting for me to clean up the rims . Terry >> Now this is my favorite Pontiac, and it is in MY garage. 1965 2+2, sorry >> to say it isn't the high HP motor or a 4 speed but it'll do for me. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Roy > Do you mean the 8 lug wheels that Pontiac had back then ? No they are not . > I said the pictures weren't high quality ! LOL What was on the car in the > pictures are 67 Chevy Impala SS wire hub caps . Took them off my brothers > Chevy before the repo man came, long ago. I do have a set of 8 Lugs sitting > in the garage waiting for me to clean up the rims . I've never seen 8 lug wheels on anything but trucks. Are you sure you don't mean 5 lug? Dave > Terry No I mean 8 Lug Wheels, built by Kelsey Hayes. They where Aluminum brake drums (heavy duty) with 8 lugs. The rims are where the tires mount like today's but with out the filler in the center. The brake drum is center part of the wheel. Check this link and click on the 8th picture down. http://www.carcraft.com/roadtests/972/ >> Do you mean the 8 lug wheels that Pontiac had back then ? No they are >> not [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> >> Terry What has hurt GM was the decision made about 1993/1994 to close the West Coast style stuido and bring styling in-house. The 1993 F-Body were bold and still turn heads today (I drive a red 95 TA with the large wing.) In reading over the story of the 4th Generation F-Body published by Road & Track in 1993, you come away that those West Coast car designers were hitting on nitro! The Soltice is the first to come out since the fall of the F-Body that captures the feel of a Pontiac, long hood, short deck. Nice balance and price all around. Considering giving up the TA for one. But, in typical MBA fashion, Pontiac missed the mark on the production numbers. The Aztec was a shot at the edge generation X and Yers. Buick got it right. Everyone else kicked it to death. Lets also keep in mind the Press has a nack for killing off ideas. Take the Ferio. Nice all around, would have given may imports a run for the money. But they kept at it until Pontiac just gave up. Today, they admit they were too hard and made a error. There could have already been a 3rd or 4th generation of Ferios with a good following. Now, its starting all over and could be too late. Where is it all leading? Consider this. The 'offical' reason for pulling the Ferio was the business case for 100,000 units was "not there". 100,000 being the break-even point. Yet, in the Soltice case, Pontiac thinks it can make money on just 20,000 Solices. Maybe Pontiac will be like Lionel Trains. Just make a 1,000 units, call it a collectors edition then move on. Want one? Too bad, that be $ 38,000 please and this year its called a GTO. Next year its the all new limited edition Tempest. > No I mean 8 Lug Wheels, built by Kelsey Hayes. They where Aluminum brake > drums (heavy duty) with 8 lugs. The rims are where the tires mount like > today's but with out the filler in the center. The brake drum is center part > of the wheel. Check this link and click on the 8th picture down. > http://www.carcraft.com/roadtests/972/ Thanks for the link. I've never seen any wheels like that before. They must be fairly rare? Dave The new GTO is not ugly. It is a tasteful design, but not a stunning grab-you-by-the-eyeballs design, which some people seemed to want. The interior is very nice and the powertrain is fantastic. The fact that it is Australian is not a negative. In fact, if GM had had the sense to sell it as a Ausie Import super-car with an American heart (which it is) and had Mel Gibson (or some actor who looks like him) do the promos with an Ausie/Mad Max twist, the thing would have sold very well. Dan Gurney has one (with hood scoops removed) and considers it to be one of his all time favorite road cars. That speaks volumes about how good a car it is. - GRL > Is it really any wonder that GM is sinking like the Titanic? Other than > the [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > to > build a beautiful car as it is to build an ugly one. > The new GTO is not ugly. It is a tasteful design, but not a stunning > grab-you-by-the-eyeballs design, which some people seemed to want. The [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >I think the GTO's are just ugly to the point of looking "Yaaaawwnnn"...excuse me.. boring. > > The new GTO is not ugly. It is a tasteful design, but not a stunning > > grab-you-by-the-eyeballs design, which some people seemed to want. The [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >I think the GTO's are just ugly to the point of looking > "Yaaaawwnnn"...excuse me.. boring. No need for you to apologize for your being boring. Some people just are that way. A word to the wise, though; it really does not make sense for you to post unsolicited messages apologizing. Tends to draw away from the sincerity of your message. Like you're bragging or something. Enough said. |
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