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Car Forum / GMC Cars / December 2005

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GM Shares Fall to 18-Year-Low After Toyota Forecast

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Nomen Nescio - 20 Dec 2005 23:30 GMT
>  
>GM Shares Fall to 18-Year-Low After Toyota Forecast
>
>Tuesday, December 20, 2005
>
>Shares of General Motors Corp. (GM) fell to an 18-year low Tuesday after
>Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) unveiled production plans for 2006 that increased
>fears that it will topple GM as the world's largest automaker.
>
>Toyota said it plans to make a record 9.06 million cars in 2006, just shy
>of the 9.15 million cars and trucks that some analysts expect GM to build
>next year.
>
>Shares of GM were down 88 cents, or 4.2 percent, at $20.16 on the New York
>Stock Exchange. The stock fell more than 5 percent to $19.63 earlier in
>the day, its lowest point since 1987. Shares have plunged nearly 50
>percent this year.
>
>Toyota Motor Corp., Japan's top automaker, has been growing at a time when
>General Motors Corp. has been stumbling, losing $1.6 billion in the third
>quarter and seeing its market share in North America chipped away by Asian
>automakers, including Toyota.
>
>Toyota's production target, announced by President Katsuaki Watanabe at a
>news conference in Nagoya, central Japan, marks a 10 percent increase from
>the 8.25 million vehicles Toyota expects to produce this year.
>
>Like Toyota, other Japanese automakers, including Honda Motor Co. and
>Nissan Motor Co., are also in good health.
>
>Honda said Tuesday in Tokyo that it projects global sales in 2005 will
>have risen 5 percent from a year earlier to a record 3.35 million
>vehicles, while vehicle production worldwide will have gone up 7.2 percent
>from last year to 3.41 million cars.
>
>Toyota said it expects to sell 8.85 million vehicles worldwide next year,
>up 9 percent from 8.09 million estimated for this year.
>
>When not including its subsidiary automakers Hino and Daihatsu, Toyota
>plans to produce 8.11 million vehicles next year, up 10 percent from 7.37
>million vehicles in 2005.
>
>GM does not provide sales or production forecasts on an annual basis, but
>some analysts said the current trend points to GM's inevitable tumble to
>second place for the first time in 70 years.
>
>"Toyota will probably be the largest producer in the world at the end of
>2006," said Richard Hilgert, auto analyst at Fitch Ratings, citing GM's
>slumping sales of large sport utility vehicles in the fuel-conscious market.
>
>Burnham Securities analyst David Healy expects GM to produce 9.15 million
>vehicles in 2006, and expects Toyota to surpass GM as the world's largest
>automaker in 2007.
>
>Peter Morici, University of Maryland economist and auto industry expert,
>believes that GM, Ford Motor Co. and the United Auto Workers, the U.S.
>labor union, do not enjoy much public sympathy, compared to the 1980s.
>
>"I do not believe the U.S. public will support protection for GM. If the
>government does it, it will have to be veiled," he said.
>
>Detroit-based General Motors has announced drastic cost cuts, including
>trimming 30,000 jobs, or 27 percent of its North American manufacturing
>jobs, and the closure of 12 facilities by 2008.
>
>GM's U.S. market share fell to 26.2 percent in the first 10 months of this
>year compared with 33 percent a decade ago, the result of increasing
>competition from Asian rivals. Standard & Poor's Ratings Services lowered
>GM's debt to "junk" status earlier this year.
>
>GM isn't the only U.S. automaker cutting costs.
>
>Ford Motor Co. (F), which reported a third-quarter loss of $284 million,
>has said it plans to eliminate about 4,000 white-collar jobs in North
>America early next year as part of a restructuring plan.
>
>Ford Chairman and CEO Bill Ford has said he plans to announce U.S. plant
>closings and layoffs in January.
>
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>© Associated Press. All rights reserved.
>Copyright © 2005 ComStock, Inc.
>This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed
xblazinlv - 21 Dec 2005 09:05 GMT
I read an article saying Toyota will surpass GM in 2006

http://www.carforums.net/
Auto Forums
Scott - 21 Dec 2005 19:08 GMT
>I read an article saying Toyota will surpass GM in 2006
>
> http://www.carforums.net/
> Auto Forums

Does this awful news make you happy?
Why bother posting it here?
gosinn@gmail.com - 21 Dec 2005 19:21 GMT
It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking
Scott - 21 Dec 2005 19:39 GMT
> It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking

I made a living working on those autos for some time.
Fords for awhile too.
Those companies employ quite a few people in this country.

So I fail to see what is so damn funny about them
both having declining sales and the resulting unemployment
of Americans.
If you find humor in this somehow, I have a sign for you.

gosinn@gmail.com - 21 Dec 2005 20:47 GMT
Good smart people are already leaving and have joined other companies
that are making good cars for the future
Mike Marlow - 22 Dec 2005 13:02 GMT
> > It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> of Americans.
> If you find humor in this somehow, I have a sign for you.

Don't waste your breath Scott.  There's an entire generation that has no
concept of what you're talking about.

Signature

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Charge - 22 Dec 2005 18:47 GMT
 It is too bad Mr. Mike Marlow simply cites "There's an entire generation
that has
 no concept of what you're talking about."

 Apparently, he is very short sided in his lame attempt to explain
 "entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about."

 Apparently that "entire generation that has no concept of what you're
talking about"
 and Mr. Marlow need economics 101 classes of how the resultant multiplier
effect
 of mass production that creates jobs in other domestic private industries.

 However, it is very possible members of that generation does have
 a concept of what "Scott" <homealone.com> is referring.

 Maybe many of them suffer from being apathetic.  Hopefully GM, Delphi,
Ford
 and others will rebound due to "an entire generation" that will learn
concepts
 that may minimize or eliminate their apathy.

 The resultant multiplier effect of domestic mass production that creates
jobs
 and thus a better standard of living for many families and people
including
 Mr. Marlow to enjoy their purchasing power of good disposable income.

 Yes to the disgust of domestic manufacturers having to contend with the
upstart
 foreign marketers that actually insult without American consumers knowing.
 "Made for Sale in the USA" seems to be the modis operandi for many of
those
 upstart foreign marketers whittling away at USA market share.

 To chastise GM's domestic automobile manufacturing and marketing existence
 that has helped fuel our nations annual output of goods and services for
many years
 is a lame attempt to justify why he won't post his gibberish on
alt.autos.toyota.

 Don't forget GE, GM, Ford, IBM and others helped our nation through the
bad
 times of the Great Depression and WWII.

 Where is our loyalty at as citizens consuming domestic manufactured
products?

 I will give you a clue it doesn't happen at Wally World with "big boxes"
containing
 products from China!

 The question is not about "entire generation that has no concept of what
you're
 talking about" but educate that generation and stimulate an appreciation
of the
 American way of life for a higher standard of living than their
counterparts all
 over the World.

 To conclude "Don't waste your breath Scott."  "There's an entire
generation
 that has no concept of what you're talking about" is a bad excuse for the
apathy
 of "an entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking
about".

 >
 > "Scott" <homealone.com> wrote in message
 > news:11qjbpvnnbp5udf@corp.supernews.com...
 >>
 >> <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message
 >> news:1135192888.371150.258510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
 >> > It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking
 >>
 >> I made a living working on those autos for some time.
 >> Fords for awhile too.
 >> Those companies employ quite a few people in this country.
 >>
 >> So I fail to see what is so damn funny about them
 >> both having declining sales and the resulting unemployment
 >> of Americans.
 >> If you find humor in this somehow, I have a sign for you.
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >
 > Don't waste your breath Scott.  There's an entire generation that has no
 > concept of what you're talking about.
 >
 > --
 >
 > -Mike-
 > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
 >
 >
Mike Marlow - 23 Dec 2005 03:51 GMT
>   It is too bad Mr. Mike Marlow simply cites "There's an entire generation
> that has
[quoted text clipped - 92 lines]
>   >
>   >

I think that there is a salient thought somewhere in that diatribe, but it's
lost in the writing style.  Perhaps you'd consider expressing your thoughts
in a more readable and intelligible style?

Signature

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

gosinn@gmail.com - 23 Dec 2005 10:06 GMT
> I think that there is a salient thought somewhere in that diatribe, but it's
> lost in the writing style.  Perhaps you'd consider expressing your thoughts
> in a more readable and intelligible style?

I second that

It is very difficult to see if he is for or against anything

What I gather from some is that they own shares and are trying to will
them up again

Also some people are against closures of factories because some people
loose jobs and they should be kept open even though nobody wants to buy
the cars just for the sake of the jobs in the factories

Lets say they do keep on producing cars people do not want to buy
Is that not similar to what it used to be in the central planning of
the USSR

The world turns in funny circles

There is a simple correlation between bad management, bad sales,
falling shares

Attaching them who talk about it does not solve anything

I can understand those who own shares but just trying to will them up
does not do anything for the share price

If I had GM shares now I would sell sell sell before I lost more
Mike Hunter - 23 Dec 2005 17:38 GMT
Vehicles nobody wants?  Your are kidding, right?  Even though it percentage,
of the near nineteen million vehicles sold in 2005 is down, GM still sells
more vehicles in the US than any other manufacture.  Well over a million
more than its nearest competitor, Ford and more than three times as many as
Toyota.  Get real

mike hunt

> Also some people are against closures of factories because some people
> loose jobs and they should be kept open even though nobody wants to buy
> the cars just for the sake of the jobs in the factories
gosinn@gmail.com - 23 Dec 2005 18:04 GMT
If you produce more than you sell you are obviously producing too much
and what is too much is something nobody wants at the price stated

Company that shows loss and is loosing money is not doing everything ok
Mike Hunter - 24 Dec 2005 19:16 GMT
You mean like Toyotas overproduction of 2005 Camry?

> If you produce more than you sell you are obviously producing too much
> and what is too much is something nobody wants at the price stated
>
> Company that shows loss and is loosing money is not doing everything ok
Spam Hater - 23 Dec 2005 20:09 GMT
> If I had GM shares now I would sell sell sell before I lost more

Very good advise.
Charge - 23 Dec 2005 19:15 GMT
 >
 > "Charge" <someone@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
 > news:wxCqf.210653$Hs.47104@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
 >>   It is too bad Mr. Mike Marlow simply cites "There's an entire
generation
 >> that has
 >>   no concept of what you're talking about."
 >>
 >>   Apparently, he is very short sided in his lame attempt to explain
 >>   "entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about."
 >>
 >>   Apparently that "entire generation that has no concept of what you're
 >> talking about"
 >>   and Mr. Marlow need economics 101 classes of how the resultant
 > multiplier
 >> effect
 >>   of mass production that creates jobs in other domestic private
 > industries.
 >>
 >>   However, it is very possible members of that generation does have
 >>   a concept of what "Scott" <homealone.com> is referring.
 >>
 >>   Maybe many of them suffer from being apathetic.  Hopefully GM,
Delphi,
 >> Ford
 >>   and others will rebound due to "an entire generation" that will learn
 >> concepts
 >>   that may minimize or eliminate their apathy.
 >>
 >>   The resultant multiplier effect of domestic mass production that
creates
 >> jobs
 >>   and thus a better standard of living for many families and people
 >> including
 >>   Mr. Marlow to enjoy their purchasing power of good disposable income.
 >>
 >>   Yes to the disgust of domestic manufacturers having to contend with
the
 >> upstart
 >>   foreign marketers that actually insult without American consumers
 > knowing.
 >>   "Made for Sale in the USA" seems to be the modis operandi for many of
 >> those
 >>   upstart foreign marketers whittling away at USA market share.
 >>
 >>   To chastise GM's domestic automobile manufacturing and marketing
 > existence
 >>   that has helped fuel our nations annual output of goods and services
for
 >> many years
 >>   is a lame attempt to justify why he won't post his gibberish on
 >> alt.autos.toyota.
 >>
 >>   Don't forget GE, GM, Ford, IBM and others helped our nation through
the
 >> bad
 >>   times of the Great Depression and WWII.
 >>
 >>   Where is our loyalty at as citizens consuming domestic manufactured
 >> products?
 >>
 >>   I will give you a clue it doesn't happen at Wally World with "big
boxes"
 >> containing
 >>   products from China!
 >>
 >>   The question is not about "entire generation that has no concept of
what
 >> you're
 >>   talking about" but educate that generation and stimulate an
appreciation
 >> of the
 >>   American way of life for a higher standard of living than their
 >> counterparts all
 >>   over the World.
 >>
 >>   To conclude "Don't waste your breath Scott."  "There's an entire
 >> generation
 >>   that has no concept of what you're talking about" is a bad excuse for
 > the
 >> apathy
 >>   of "an entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking
 >> about".
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>   "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net> wrote in message
 >> news:2060d$43aaa411$45289469$24069@ALLTEL.NET...
 >>   >
 >>   > "Scott" <homealone.com> wrote in message
 >>   > news:11qjbpvnnbp5udf@corp.supernews.com...
 >>   >>
 >>   >> <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message
 >>   >> news:1135192888.371150.258510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
 >>   >> > It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking
 >>   >>
 >>   >> I made a living working on those autos for some time.
 >>   >> Fords for awhile too.
 >>   >> Those companies employ quite a few people in this country.
 >>   >>
 >>   >> So I fail to see what is so damn funny about them
 >>   >> both having declining sales and the resulting unemployment
 >>   >> of Americans.
 >>   >> If you find humor in this somehow, I have a sign for you.
 >>   >>
 >>   >>
 >>   >>
 >>   >
 >>   > Don't waste your breath Scott.  There's an entire generation that
has
 > no
 >>   > concept of what you're talking about.
 >>   >
 >>   > --
 >>   >
 >>   > -Mike-
 >>   > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
 >>   >
 >>   >
 >>
 >>
 >
 > I think that there is a salient thought somewhere in that diatribe, but
it's
 > lost in the writing style.  Perhaps you'd consider expressing your
thoughts
 > in a more readable and intelligible style?
 >
 > --
 >
 > -Mike-
 > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
 >
 >

 I did not intend for my "diatribe" to be lost in "salient thought".

 My intent was to stimulate one's understanding that the welfare of
 the American economy is at stake!

 Apparently, I was unsuccessful in conveying my "diatribe" in
 plain E N G L I S H but was lost in "salient thought".

 Hopefully GM, Delphi, Ford and others will rebound due to
 "an entire generation" that will learn concepts that may
 minimize or eliminate their apathy.

 Maybe I should have made reference to how dumb Americans
 can be on alt.auto.toyota. by praising foreign manufacturers.
Charge - 23 Dec 2005 19:20 GMT
 >
 > "Charge" <someone@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
 > news:wxCqf.210653$Hs.47104@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com...
 >>   It is too bad Mr. Mike Marlow simply cites "There's an entire
generation
 >> that has
 >>   no concept of what you're talking about."
 >>
 >>   Apparently, he is very short sided in his lame attempt to explain
 >>   "entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about."
 >>
 >>   Apparently that "entire generation that has no concept of what you're
 >> talking about"
 >>   and Mr. Marlow need economics 101 classes of how the resultant
 > multiplier
 >> effect
 >>   of mass production that creates jobs in other domestic private
 > industries.
 >>
 >>   However, it is very possible members of that generation does have
 >>   a concept of what "Scott" <homealone.com> is referring.
 >>
 >>   Maybe many of them suffer from being apathetic.  Hopefully GM,
Delphi,
 >> Ford
 >>   and others will rebound due to "an entire generation" that will learn
 >> concepts
 >>   that may minimize or eliminate their apathy.
 >>
 >>   The resultant multiplier effect of domestic mass production that
creates
 >> jobs
 >>   and thus a better standard of living for many families and people
 >> including
 >>   Mr. Marlow to enjoy their purchasing power of good disposable income.
 >>
 >>   Yes to the disgust of domestic manufacturers having to contend with
the
 >> upstart
 >>   foreign marketers that actually insult without American consumers
 > knowing.
 >>   "Made for Sale in the USA" seems to be the modis operandi for many of
 >> those
 >>   upstart foreign marketers whittling away at USA market share.
 >>
 >>   To chastise GM's domestic automobile manufacturing and marketing
 > existence
 >>   that has helped fuel our nations annual output of goods and services
for
 >> many years
 >>   is a lame attempt to justify why he won't post his gibberish on
 >> alt.autos.toyota.
 >>
 >>   Don't forget GE, GM, Ford, IBM and others helped our nation through
the
 >> bad
 >>   times of the Great Depression and WWII.
 >>
 >>   Where is our loyalty at as citizens consuming domestic manufactured
 >> products?
 >>
 >>   I will give you a clue it doesn't happen at Wally World with "big
boxes"
 >> containing
 >>   products from China!
 >>
 >>   The question is not about "entire generation that has no concept of
what
 >> you're
 >>   talking about" but educate that generation and stimulate an
appreciation
 >> of the
 >>   American way of life for a higher standard of living than their
 >> counterparts all
 >>   over the World.
 >>
 >>   To conclude "Don't waste your breath Scott."  "There's an entire
 >> generation
 >>   that has no concept of what you're talking about" is a bad excuse for
 > the
 >> apathy
 >>   of "an entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking
 >> about".
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>   "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net> wrote in message
 >> news:2060d$43aaa411$45289469$24069@ALLTEL.NET...
 >>   >
 >>   > "Scott" <homealone.com> wrote in message
 >>   > news:11qjbpvnnbp5udf@corp.supernews.com...
 >>   >>
 >>   >> <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message
 >>   >> news:1135192888.371150.258510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
 >>   >> > It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking
 >>   >>
 >>   >> I made a living working on those autos for some time.
 >>   >> Fords for awhile too.
 >>   >> Those companies employ quite a few people in this country.
 >>   >>
 >>   >> So I fail to see what is so damn funny about them
 >>   >> both having declining sales and the resulting unemployment
 >>   >> of Americans.
 >>   >> If you find humor in this somehow, I have a sign for you.
 >>   >>
 >>   >>
 >>   >>
 >>   >
 >>   > Don't waste your breath Scott.  There's an entire generation that
has
 > no
 >>   > concept of what you're talking about.
 >>   >
 >>   > --
 >>   >
 >>   > -Mike-
 >>   > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
 >>   >
 >>   >
 >>
 >>
 >
 > I think that there is a salient thought somewhere in that diatribe, but
it's
 > lost in the writing style.  Perhaps you'd consider expressing your
thoughts
 > in a more readable and intelligible style?
 >
 > --
 >
 > -Mike-
 > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
 >
 >
Spam Hater - 23 Dec 2005 20:08 GMT
>  The resultant multiplier effect of domestic mass production that creates
> jobs
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> those
>   upstart foreign marketers whittling away at USA market share.

Toyota and Honda are hardly upstart "foreign" vehicle companies.
You are spreading misinformation or perhaps you just don't know what is
going on.
How about the Toyota vehicle sold by GM, the Mazada vehicle sold by
Ford, the Ford vehicle sold by Ford?
The big 3 have been in bed with those nasty foreign companies for some
time, with their joint projects.
Mike Hunter - 21 Dec 2005 21:37 GMT
Not to worry that.  Toyota news release refers to Toyotas prediction of its
CAR sales worldwide, not total number of VEHICLES sold.  Certainly not to
cars and/or truck sales in the US, where Toyota is a distant fourth far
behind GM, Ford and Chrysler.  In the US the top selling vehicles are light
trucks not cars.  For example Ford sells nearly twice as many F150s, the
number one selling vehicle on the planet.   Toyota has the number one
selling car, the Camry, although 2005 Camry sales are off over 4% from 2004
and F150 sales are up 2% over 2004.   GM and Dodge also sell their trucks at
a much higher rate than does the Camry  ;)

mike hunt

>>I read an article saying Toyota will surpass GM in 2006
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Does this awful news make you happy?
> Why bother posting it here?
Al Bundy - 21 Dec 2005 22:46 GMT
> Not to worry that.  Toyota news release refers to Toyotas prediction of its
> CAR sales worldwide, not total number of VEHICLES sold.  Certainly not to
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> >
> >Thank you Mike for apologizing for GM. That head in the sand attitude is why GM is where they are. The numbers are all out there for folks to see when they take the blinders off.
John Horner - 21 Dec 2005 23:01 GMT
> Not to worry that.  Toyota news release refers to Toyotas prediction of its
> CAR sales worldwide, not total number of VEHICLES sold.  Certainly not to
> cars and/or truck sales in the US, where Toyota is a distant fourth far
> behind GM, Ford and Chrysler.  

Wrong sir.

Here, for example,  are the total VEHICLE sales for the US in November
2005 with a comparison to 2004.  The numbers reported are for vehicles,
not just cars.  Toyota passed Chrysler and is at the heals of Ford in
the US.  Internationally Toyota is much stronger.

Reference:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-autos2dec02,1,6570851.story?coll=la-headli
nes-business


Maker    Sales    Change from 11/04
GM    274,686    -7.6%
Ford    185,852    -14.7%
Toyota    169,665    +10.0%
Chrysler*    159,898    -2.7%
Honda    105,860    +10.8%
Nissan    77,212    -3.9%
Hyundai    33,383    +12.5%

For 2005 GM is expected to produce about 9 million vehicles worldwide
compared to Toyota at 8.1 million vehicles.   For 2006 GM is closing
factories and Toyota is opening them, hence the many forcasts saying
that 2006 may be the year Toyota exceeds GM worldwide vehicle
production.  See:

http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/11/23/149102.html

You have used the trucks vs. cars argument before, but the data simply
does not agree with your repeated assertion.  Unless something
completely unexpected happens, the trends are clearly indicating that in
 either 2006 or 2007 Toyota is going to produce and sell more vehicles
(cars & trucks) worldwide than GM will.

It might also be noted that these numbers include all sales channels,
traditional retail as well as fleet & rental.  In the US at least, GM
and Ford both push a much higher fraction of their output into
non-retail channels then do Toyota, Nissan and Honda.

John
Mike Hunter - 22 Dec 2005 03:27 GMT
My reference is not to comparable monthly sales, but year to date sales
within the US.  The F150 has sold 939,511 units in ten months of 2005, more
than twice Camry sales.  In the US GM is number one is sales, Ford two,
Chrysler three and Toyota is still fourth.  What kept Toyota above Honda in
2005 was truck sales, not cars.

Toyota may indeed outsell GM in cars worldwide but GM and Ford do not sell
the micro cars and trucks like those sold around the world by the Japanese.

Your figures for US sales are way off.  Here are the totals for just the
first SIX month of sales in the US from 'Automotive News'.  As you can see
the F150 sells at twice the rate of the Camry  The Dodge ram has since moved
up to third place   Toyotas trucks in total do not even make the top twenty
in sales.

When it comes to fleet sales ALL manufactures offer comparable discounts to
fleets.   Corporate fleet owners just happen to PREFER Ford and GM over
imports.

If you want to see total 2005 sales you can do so in January buy searching
'Automotive News'
 1.. Ford F-Series
 694,690

 2.. Chevrolet Silverado
 570,278

 3.. Toyota Camry
 326,149

 4.. Dodge Ram
 319,912

 5.. Honda Accord
 292,398

 6.. Honda Civic
 233,838

 7.. Nissan Altima
 205,145

 8.. Ford Explorer
 196,878

 9.. Chevrolet TrailBlazer
 190,964

 10.. Toyota Corolla
 188,263

>> Not to worry that.  Toyota news release refers to Toyotas prediction of
>> its CAR sales worldwide, not total number of VEHICLES sold.  Certainly
>> not to cars and/or truck sales in the US, where Toyota is a distant
>> fourth far behind GM, Ford and Chrysler.   In the US the top selling
>> vehicles are light
trucks not cars.  For example Ford sells twice as many F150s, the
number one selling vehicle on the planet.   Toyota has the number one
selling car, the Camry, although 2005 Camry sales are off over 4% from 2004
and F150 sales are up 2% over 2004.   GM and Dodge also sell their trucks at
a much higher rate than does the Camry  ;)

> Wrong sir.
>
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> John
Spam Hater - 22 Dec 2005 06:09 GMT
> If you want to see total 2005 sales you can do so in January buy searching
> 'Automotive News'
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>   10.. Toyota Corolla  *
>   188,263
Where are the big 3 cars?
I don't drive a truck.
So 50% of the top selling vehicles are Toyota/Honda/Nissan.
Looks like they have big 3 cars beaten.
gosinn@gmail.com - 22 Dec 2005 10:44 GMT
Most impotantly is what and who are growing
Quality cars are growing
People are shopping around on the internet and are becoming more
quality minded
When you buy a car you are thinking about its value the next 10 years
or so
It is no longer just the looks of the car at the time of purchase
You think about the totla costs of ownership
You think about the reselling value
You think about the environment
You think about the costs maintenance
You think about the price of fuel
That is why GM is falling
The do not think about the totla costs of ownership
The do not think about the reselling value
The do not think about the environment
The do not think about the costs maintenance
The do not think about the price of fuel
So it is easy to understand why GM is falling
Your objectives and theirs do not match
They live in the past
You live now and in the future
Mike Hunter - 22 Dec 2005 17:35 GMT
That may be your opinion but your are not even close with that assessment of
why buyers buy the vehicles they buy.  After more than ten years as Group
Sales Manager of one of the largest mega dealership groups on the east cost
that sold just about every brand, I can assure you the most asked question
before a customer signs on the dotted line has nothing to do with only of
that.  The final determining question is always "How much in my monthly
payment?"   LOL

Better do a bit of research, the average new car buyer in the US replaces
their new vehicle with another new vehicle in three or four year, with 30K
to 45K miles on the clock.  Only a small percentage of new car purchasers
keep their vehicle for seven years, let alone ten years.

PS  GM offers more vehicles that get over 30 MPG than ANY other manufacture,
ten more than Toyota for instance.  GM even offers a car with a V8 that gets
over 30 MPG.

mike hunt

> Most impotantly is what and who are growing
> Quality cars are growing
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> They live in the past
> You live now and in the future
gosinn@gmail.com - 22 Dec 2005 18:01 GMT
If you look at it from the cars perspective then it has often several
owners over its lifetime
I guess it is fair to say that average lifetime of a car is roughly 10
years and it is reasonable to count all costs related to the car over
that timeframe

The monthly payments do reflect on all the above mentioned items
You buy a car and you sell it a few years later
You have to maintain it and put on it fuel
All of these items result in a price that is then what the user has to
pay one way or the other

The longer lifespan of a car is, the more you can get for it when you
sell it, the less you have to pay for maintenace and fuel all show up
sooner or later

Because it is often later it takes a long time for a user to find out
that he might have been better off with a different car it takes a long
time for that change to happen

The reason for why you buy something today is very often related to
your past experience, other peoples experiences and in a word related
to a cars and it producers image

It takes a hell of a lot of time to build up a good image

It takes a lot less time to loose it

And when you have lost it you have to work a lot harder to get it again

Getting a girl first time can be difficult
Perform well and you get her easily again
Perform not so well
Welll.....
Spam Hater - 23 Dec 2005 20:02 GMT
> PS  GM offers more vehicles that get over 30 MPG than ANY other manufacture,
> ten more than Toyota for instance.  GM even offers a car with a V8 that gets
> over 30 MPG.
I rented a 2005 Impalla last Sep that got great fuel mileage, but it was
a pain to drive.  Just not responsive and handling was so so.
I wouldn't trade my 1995 Chrysler Concord for it.
gosinn@gmail.com - 23 Dec 2005 20:10 GMT
Here in Ísland Toyota has over 25% of the market
No other brand comes even close
Most cars last 5 - 10 years
It is not unusual to see 20 years Toyotas
Charge - 24 Dec 2005 08:06 GMT
 >EDITOR'S NOTE: In the years after World War II, thousands of
 >companies made a promise to their workers: Invest your most
 >productive years with us, and we'll take care of you with a pension
 >when your working days are over. In recent years, though, hundreds of
 >thousands of workers and retirees have seen those promises broken.
 >This is the story of how that happened at one small Ohio company.
 >
 >HOWLAND, Ohio (AP) _It had been another tense week at Ajax
 >Magnethermic Corp. But after 35 years at the struggling company, Jim
 >Necastro was glad just to have his job, especially with retirement a
 >few years away.
 >
 >Certainly that was worth a toast on this June afternoon. He cracked
 >open a cold beer and stretched out on his backyard patio.
 >
 >Then Don, a neighbor who worked for a local security company, came
 >trotting across the lawn.
 >
 >"Hey, Jimmy," the neighbor half-shouted. "My guard just called me
 >from Ajax. He said they just closed and he's supposed to lock the
 >gates."
 >
 >By evening, the windows of the plant on Overland Avenue were dark,
 >the gates were padlocked and a sign hung from the chain-link: "Closed
 >Until Further Notice."
 >
 >The shutdown was so sudden and unexplained that even the following
 >Monday, 90 of Ajax's 138 employees showed up for work.
 >
 >Necastro's job was gone, but that was hardly his only worry.
 >
 >Somewhere behind the padlocks, alongside the stilled machines and
 >vacant desks, could his pension be in there too?
 >
 >
 >
 >A pension is a promise. And through the years, Ajax's workers had no
 >reason to doubt the word of the company's owners, three men who knew
 >each worker by name.
 >
 >But then the company changed hands. And changed hands again. And then
 >again. By 2002, Ajax was owned by a subsidiary of Citigroup Inc., the
 >nation's biggest bank. And when Citigroup decided to walk away from
 >Ajax, that promise was lost.
 >
 >Nobody ever explained to Ajax workers nearing retirement just how
 >that could be the case. They would have to figure it out on their
 >own. It would take three years of waiting, of sifting through clues
 >and wrestling with bureaucracies.
 >
 >Three years to learn that thousands of dollars they'd been counting
 >on would not be coming.
 >
 >
 >
 >Necastro was just 22 when he returned home in 1967 after serving on
 >an aircraft carrier off Vietnam. He had been back a week when he
 >found work in the test lab at Ajax.
 >
 >The company, housed in a former military tank factory - a box of red
 >brick and murky glass just outside the manufacturing town of Warren,
 >Ohio - employed a hundred or so people then. Its president, John
 >Logan, and his two partners often strode the plant floor, greeting
 >workers by name.
 >
 >"You could talk to those guys," an Ajax veteran, Art Racco, said.
 >"They knew what you built. They knew how complicated it was."
 >
 >The company wasn't big, but it played a key role in the Mahoning
 >River Valley's gritty, thriving economy, making electric melting
 >equipment for the area's steel mills.
 >
 >Necastro didn't expect to stay long. But it was a comfortable place
 >where co-workers became his closest friends, sharing poolside
 >barbecues and Caribbean cruises together. Long after Necastro's first
 >marriage failed, his friendships at Ajax remained strong.
 >
 >But by the time he finished a third decade at Ajax, things were
 >changing. Most of the steel mills in this valley 50 miles southeast
 >of Cleveland had been shuttered. Many storefronts east of Warren's
 >historic courthouse square had gone dark. Logan and his partners were
 >gone too, selling out to a British conglomerate, BBA Group PLC.
 >
 >And by the 1990s, business was flagging.
 >
 >But a venture capital company owned by Citigroup Inc. looked at Ajax
 >and saw opportunity. In 1998, with a few Ajax executives as minority
 >partners, it bought the company with $135 million borrowed from a
 >consortium of banks, and put the debt on Ajax's books.
 >
 >The plan: build the business, pay down the debt, and sell the company
 >at a profit.
 >
 >At the time, Ajax was still a going concern. But could it do well
 >enough to survive this huge new debt? As the months dragged on,
 >office workers who got glimpses of Ajax's books whispered that
 >profits were not increasing fast enough to pay it down.
 >
 >As months ticked by without a sale of Ajax, workers nearing
 >retirement started worrying whether that might affect their pensions.
 >The company tried to reassure them.
 >
 >"There have been a number of rumors and discussions circulating
 >regarding the possibility that either Ajax or its new parent,
 >Citicorp Venture Capital, might modify the pension plans," it told
 >workers in a 1999 memo. "It is important that each of you be aware
 >that ... plan benefits earned as of any given date (known as accrued
 >benefits) cannot be eliminated, changed or removed by any company."
 >
 >But the rumors persisted. So in 2001, David Holmquist, a company
 >lawyer, gathered workers in the Ajax lunchroom to soothe concerns.
 >One worker captured it on videotape.
 >
 >"What happens if we go bankrupt?" a worker shouted from the back of
 >the room.
 >
 >Holmquist paused, as if pondering his answer.
 >
 >"Our bankruptcy lawyers will do just fine," he said. "The company has
 >no right to any of the money in the pension plan except if the plan
 >is terminated and there are more funds than needed to give everybody
 >... all the money that they have earned."
 >
 >At the time, Holmquist assured them, money the company had set aside
 >for their pensions was sufficient to pay them what they had coming to
 >them. That was true, in part, because much of the pension money was
 >invested in the stock market, which had been booming. But what had
 >gone up would soon come down.
 >
 >Meanwhile, workers found new reasons to worry.
 >
 >In 2002, the company shut Ajax's satellite plant in Richmond, Ky.
 >
 >"What about our retirement benefits?" workers there wrote to the CEO.
 >"Will we be left with nothing?"
 >
 >Dave Hanton, a midlevel manager in Howland, began stopping by the
 >desks or calling the homes of co-workers over 55, asking them to chip
 >in to hire a lawyer to check on their pensions. About 100 workers
 >kicked in $50 each.
 >
 >A few workers, including Tom Kearney, who had 28 years with the
 >company, asked if they could get the value of their pension in a lump
 >sum if they retired immediately. As Kearney remembers it, the answer
 >was no.
 >
 >Then, more bad news.
 >
 >In May 2002, the company announced it was scrapping severance pay.
 >Two days later, nearly 60 employees were called into the cafeteria
 >and told they were terminated. Two weeks later, the company announced
 >that "due to unforeseen events" it was eliminating health insurance.
 >
 >Finally, on the afternoon of June 28, Ajax ran out of rope. It was
 >out of cash and its lenders would give it no more.
 >
 >"I and a few others sniffed it out," says Lou Moliterno, a former
 >Ajax vice president. "At 3 o'clock, I actually threw together a box
 >of some stuff ... and rushed it out to my car."
 >
 >By evening, the gates were shackled.
 >
 >"Ajax Magnethermic," says Tom Illencik, then an Ajax middle manager,
 >"closed and ceases to exist."
 >
 >
 >
 >Abandoned employees puzzled over what to do.
 >
 >"Not sold. Not bankrupt? How do I get pension?" Necastro scribbled in
 >a note to himself.
 >
 >As it turned out, money set aside for the pensions was still safe,
 >but there wasn't as much of it now. The stock market had plummeted
 >and interest rates had dropped, leaving the pension accounts holding
 >less than half of what was needed to pay promised benefits.
 >
 >With Ajax shuttered, who was responsible for making up the
 >difference?
 >
 >In their search for answers, workers flocked to Mother_Ajax, an
 >Internet discussion board set up by Mike Smith, a salesman who lost
 >his job in the May layoffs.
 >
 >That's where many first heard about a deal to resurrect Ajax. It was
 >complex, and some elements of it are still unclear. But the paper
 >trail - contained in county court papers, state incorporation
 >records, federal pension files obtained through a Freedom of
 >Information Act request, and securities filings - tells much of the
 >story.
 >
 >The banks that were Ajax's main creditors decided to get out of the
 >business with what they could. In July 2002, they sold the right to
 >collect the debt for pennies on the dollar.
 >
 >Park-Ohio Holdings Corp., a Cleveland company, was the buyer, in a
 >deal that essentially gave it control over how Ajax would be
 >liquidated. Park-Ohio reopened the plant, gradually rehired many
 >workers and then acquired Ajax's equipment and assets.
 >
 >But Park-Ohio did not buy Ajax itself - so it had no legal
 >responsibility for the promised pensions.
 >
 >Those responsibilities remained with Ajax, now an empty vessel, still
 >owned almost entirely by Citigroup's venture capital company. But not
 >for long.
 >
 >Citigroup sold most of its interest in Ajax to a shell company set up
 >just for that purpose by Jerry Crawford, brother of Park-Ohio's
 >chairman and CEO.
 >
 >When the deal was done, ownership in Ajax was dispersed, with no one
 >owning 80 percent of it.
 >
 >The figure is important. Under federal law, no company could be held
 >responsible for funding the $9 million pension shortfall unless it
 >owned at least 80 percent of Ajax.
 >
 >That raises some questions: Why was a shell company formed to buy
 >control of a worthless Ajax? Was the sale structured intentionally to
 >avoid responsibility for funding the pensions?
 >
 >Crawford wouldn't answer and referred the questions to an attorney
 >who did not return phone calls. His brother Edward, the Park-Ohio
 >CEO, also declined to comment. So did a spokesman for Citigroup, and
 >a spokesman for Credit Suisse First Boston, the lead lender to Ajax.
 >
 >Structuring a deal specifically to evade responsibility for pensions
 >is illegal. The federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, which
 >is responsible for enforcement, investigated, filing an
 >administrative subpoena in late 2002 for access to company files
 >still held in the Howland Avenue building. For reasons that are still
 >unclear, the PBGC was not able to see the records for 15 months.
 >
 >The agency found no evidence of evasion. It's very difficult to
 >prove, said spokesman Gary Pastorius.
 >
 >However, a PBGC staffer who worked on the later stages of the case,
 >said the agency apparently was unaware that the shell company that
 >bought the largest share of Ajax was owned by the brother of
 >Park-Ohio's CEO. That might merit a second look, he said.
 >
 >The PBGC has a big stake in how this all turns out. Its main role is
 >to insure pensions, covering the shortfall when companies default on
 >their obligations.
 >
 >That has been happening with increasing frequency, pushing the agency
 >into record deficits. In just the past year, the agency has
 >shouldered 120 terminated pension plans, assuming responsibility for
 >the benefits of 235,000 workers and retirees. The problem has grown
 >so serious that the Bush administration and Congress have been
 >working to craft a law that would require companies to fully fund
 >their pension plans.
 >
 >So, former Ajax workers "started calling the PBGC and started
 >clamoring for what was going to happen," said Moliterno, a former
 >Ajax executive. The answer was a long time coming.
 >
 >Almost 2 1/2 years after Ajax closed, letters from the PBGC arrived
 >in the mailboxes of the oldest Ajax workers informing them it would
 >begin paying their monthly pensions. Part of the money would come
 >from $7.9 million the agency recovered from Ajax pension accounts -
 >of $16.7 million owed to workers. Taxpayers will cover the rest.
 >
 >But that does not mean the former Ajax workers will get all the
 >retirement income they had been counting on.
 >
 >The PBGC provides workers only with the benefits they earned before
 >their pension plan was terminated. But in most pension plans -
 >including Ajax's plan - much of a worker's pension is accumulated in
 >the last few years of his working life. For the many Ajax workers who
 >were near, but not yet at, retirement age, the loss is considerable.
 >
 >Necastro was expecting to retire at 65 with a pension of $1,600 a
 >month. Instead, he gets $785.70. Hanton, a manager, was expecting
 >$2,300 monthly or a $344,000 lump sum. Instead, at 63, the PBGC is
 >sending him $1,305.85 a month. In the time spent waiting for the
 >first check, he burned through much of his savings. The floor plans
 >he and his wife drew up for a retirement home have been shelved, and
 >talk of travel together has been put aside.
 >
 >The scaling back of expectations has been hard to accept, and not
 >everyone has been able to let it go. For some workers, the pursuit of
 >Ajax is no less than an obsession.
 >
 >"It's become a vendetta," Racco acknowledges. Hunched over his
 >kitchen counter, he fingers papers in a binder full of documents from
 >the case as if it was a holy text.
 >
 >The fight for pension dollars has so consumed him that it nearly
 >wrecked his marriage, he says.
 >
 >"Six months ago we went to a counselor," he says, his voice breaking.
 >"I watched her cry. I watched her say 'I just want my husband back to
 >the way he used to be.' That's when I said 'I've got to change.'"
 >
 >But things keep happening that make it impossible to put aside his
 >anger.
 >
 >He badgered Citigroup about his pension and finally got this reply in
 >August of 2004:
 >
 >"I have confirmed with counsel that Citigroup Inc. did not acquire
 >the assets or liabilities of the Ajax Magnethermic Corporation
 >Employees Pension Plan . . . You might want to contact the PBGC..."
 >
 >And earlier this year, Racco tracked down a lawyer whose name is on
 >top of the pension termination papers filed with the PBGC. Yes, the
 >attorney confirmed, he was the one who formally threw in the towel on
 >Ajax's pension plans.
 >
 >"Who hired you?" Racco asked.
 >
 >"That's privileged information," the lawyer replied.
 >
 >Smith, the former Ajax salesman who was among those fired without
 >notice, is another who couldn't walk away. For three years, he has
 >pursued a lawsuit demanding severance pay.
 >
 >In July, a federal judge ruled that he and other workers may have
 >grounds for a claim against the banks that made loans to Ajax. But
 >suing a former employer has made it impossible for him to find
 >another job, he says. He spends most days helping out at his
 >brother's heating and air conditioning business. His savings and
 >unemployment checks tapped out, he filed for bankruptcy last year.
 >
 >"It's something you try to push toward the back of your mind," he
 >says of the past 3 1/2 years. "Otherwise you'd go crazy."
 >
 >While a few of Ajax's former workers continue to battle, most say
 >they are trying to move on.
 >
 >Kearney started his own business. Necastro is savoring the time to
 >fish and watching his dollars until he qualifies for Social Security
 >next year. Hanton is doing odd jobs for neighbors and repairing old
 >tractors, a longtime hobby.
 >
 >Still, some wonder if there isn't a lesson in what happened to their
 >company and their pensions.
 >
 >Sitting at his kitchen table, Hanton shakes his head and smiles,
 >recounting the sermon on financial planning he preached recently to
 >one of his sons and the response it drew.
 >
 >"He said Dad, look at you. You did all the things that you were
 >supposed to do and look what happened to you," Hanton recalls.
 >
 >"And, you know, I couldn't give him an answer."
 >
 >

 Here in Ísland Toyota has over 25% of the market

 So What!
 Read the above email closer!

 "No other brand comes even close"  To what?

 Oh boy what other startling revelations do you plan to let us know about
from rice rocket land.

 "Most cars last 5 - 10 years"

 Humm, My 1939 Plymouth stock P-8 Coupe and 1977 stock Caprice Classic are
both driveable!

 "It is not unusual to see 20 years Toyotas"

 Oh what does that prove?  I have seen many in a junk yards!
gosinn@gmail.com - 24 Dec 2005 12:48 GMT
 FUTURE NOTE: In the year 2005, car made a promise to their workers:
 Invest your most productive years with us, and well take care of you
with a pension
 when your working days are over. In recent years, though, hundreds of
 thousands of workers and retirees have seen those promises broken.
 This is the story of how that happened at one small car company.

 DETROIT: It had been another tense week at MG/DROF
 carcompany. But after years at the struggling company, Jim
 Beam was glad just to have his job, especially with retirement a
 few years away.

 Certainly that was worth a toast on this June afternoon. He cracked
 open a cold beer and stretched out on his backyard patio.

 Then Don, a neighbor who worked for a local security company, came
 trotting across the lawn.

 "Hey, Jimmy," the neighbor half-shouted. "My guard just called me
 from MG/DROF. He said they just closed and he's supposed to lock the
 gates."

 By evening, the windows of the plant on Rodeo Drive were dark,
 the gates were padlocked and a sign hung from the chain-link: "Closed
 Until Further Notice."

 The shutdown was so sudden and unexplained that even the following
 Monday, 900 of MG/DROF's 1380 employees showed up for work.

 Beam's job was gone, but that was hardly his only worry.

 Somewhere behind the padlocks, alongside the stilled machines and
 vacant desks, could his pension be in there too?

 A pension is a promise. And through the years, MG/DROF's workers had
no
 reason to doubt the word of the company's owners, three men who knew
 each worker by name.

 But then the company changed hands. And changed hands again. And then
 again. By 2002, MG/DROF was owned by a subsidiary of Cars Inc., the
 nation's biggest bank. And when Cars decided to walk away from
 MG/DROF, that promise was lost.

 Nobody ever explained to MG/DROF workers nearing retirement just how
 that could be the case. They would have to figure it out on their
 own. It would take three years of waiting, of sifting through clues
 and wrestling with bureaucracies.

 Three years to learn that thousands of dollars they'd been counting
 on would not be coming.

 Beam was just 22 when he returned home in 2005 after serving on
 an aircraft carrier off Iraq. He had been back a week when he
 found work in the test lab at MG/DROF.

 The company, housed in a former military tank factory - a box of red
 brick and murky glass just outside the manufacturing town of Promise,
 employed several hundred or so people then. Its president, Jack
 Daniels, and his two partners often strode the plant floor, greeting
 workers by name.

 "You could talk to those guys," an MG/DROF veteran, Art Garfunkel,
said.
 "They knew what you built. They knew how complicated it was."

 The company wasn't big, but it played a key role in the cities,
 thriving economy, making electric melting equipment for the area's
steel mills.

 Beam didn't expect to stay long. But it was a comfortable place
 where co-workers became his closest friends, sharing poolside
 barbecues and Caribbean cruises together. Long after Beam's first
 marriage failed, his friendships at MG/DROF remained strong.

 But by the time he finished a third decade at MG/DROF, things were
 changing. Most of the steel mills in this valley 50 miles southeast
 had been shuttered. Many storefronts east of
 historic courthouse square had gone dark. Daniels and his partners
were
 gone too, selling out to a Saudi conglomerate, SBA Group PLC.

 And by the 2010s, business was flagging.

 But a venture capital company owned by Cars Inc. looked at MG/DROF
 and saw opportunity. In 2011, with a few MG/DROF executives as
minority
 partners, it bought the company with $1350 million borrowed from a
 consortium of banks, and put the debt on MG/DROF's books.

 The plan: build the business, pay down the debt, and sell the company
 at a profit.

 At the time, MG/DROF was still a going concern. But could it do well
 enough to survive this huge new debt? As the months dragged on,
 office workers who got glimpses of MG/DROF's books whispered that
 profits were not increasing fast enough to pay it down.

 As months ticked by without a sale of MG/DROF, workers nearing
 retirement started worrying whether that might affect their pensions.
 The company tried to reassure them.

 "There have been a number of rumors and discussions circulating
 regarding the possibility that either MG/DROF or its new parent,
 Saudi Venture Capital, might modify the pension plans," it told
 workers in a 2012 memo. "It is important that each of you be aware
 that ... plan benefits earned as of any given date (known as accrued
 benefits) cannot be eliminated, changed or removed by any company."

 But the rumors persisted. So in 2013, David Hollow, a company
 lawyer, gathered workers in the MG/DROF lunchroom to soothe concerns.
 One worker captured it on videotape.

 "What happens if we go bankrupt?" a worker shouted from the back of
 the room.

 Hollow paused, as if pondering his answer.

 "Our bankruptcy lawyers will do just fine," he said. "The company has
 no right to any of the money in the pension plan except if the plan
 is terminated and there are more funds than needed to give everybody
 ... all the money that they have earned."

 At the time, Hollow assured them, money the company had set aside
 for their pensions was sufficient to pay them what they had coming to
 them. That was true, in part, because much of the pension money was
 invested in the stock market, which had been booming. But what had
 gone up would soon come down.

 Meanwhile, workers found new reasons to worry.

 In 2014, the company shut MG/DROF's satellite plant.

 "What about our retirement benefits?" workers there wrote to the CEO.
 "Will we be left with nothing?"

 Dave Emdarrased, a midlevel manager , began stopping by the
 desks or calling the homes of co-workers over 55, asking them to chip
 in to hire a lawyer to check on their pensions. About 1000 workers
 kicked in $500 each.

 A few workers, including Tom Lee, who had 28 years with the
 company, asked if they could get the value of their pension in a lump
 sum if they retired immediately. As Kearney remembers it, the answer
 was no.

 Then, more bad news.

 In May 2015, the company announced it was scrapping severance pay.
 Two days later, nearly 600 employees were called into the cafeteria
 and told they were terminated. Two weeks later, the company announced
 that "due to unforeseen events" it was eliminating health insurance.

 Finally, on the afternoon of June 28, MG/DROF ran out of rope. It was
 out of cash and its lenders would give it no more.

 "I and a few others sniffed it out," says Lou Derric, a former
 MG/DROF vice president. "At 3 o'clock, I actually threw together a
box
 of some stuff ... and rushed it out to my car."

 By evening, the gates were shackled.

 "MG/DROF Main," says Tom Illencik, then an MG/DROF middle manager,
 "closed and ceases to exist."

 Abandoned employees puzzled over what to do.

 "Not sold. Not bankrupt? How do I get pension?" Beam scribbled in
 a note to himself.

 As it turned out, money set aside for the pensions was still safe,
 but there wasn't as much of it now. The stock market had plummeted
 and interest rates had dropped, leaving the pension accounts holding
 less than half of what was needed to pay promised benefits.

 With MG/DROF shuttered, who was responsible for making up the
 difference?

 In their search for answers, workers flocked to alt.cars.mg-drof, an
 Internet discussion board set up by John Smith, a salesman who lost
 his job in the May layoffs.

 That's where many first heard about a deal to resurrect MG/DROF. It
was
 complex, and some elements of it are still unclear. But the paper
 trail - contained in county court papers, state incorporation
 records, federal pension files obtained through a Freedom of
 Information Act request, and securities filings - tells much of the
 story.

 The banks that were MG/DROF's main creditors decided to get out of
the
 business with what they could. In July 2015, they sold the right to
 collect the debt for pennies on the dollar.

 Saudi Holdings Corp., a Alquida company, was the buyer, in a
 deal that essentially gave it control over how MG/DROF would be
 liquidated. Saudi reopened the plant, gradually rehired many
 workers and then acquired MG/DROF's equipment and assets.

 But Saudi did not buy MG/DROF itself - so it had no legal
 responsibility for the promised pensions.

 Those responsibilities remained with MG/DROF, now an empty vessel,
still
 owned almost entirely by Cars's venture capital company. But not
 for long.

 Cars sold most of its interest in MG/DROF to a shell company set up
 just for that purpose by Joan Crawford, sister of Saudis
 chairman and CEO.

 When the deal was done, ownership in MG/DROF was dispersed, with no
one
 owning 80 percent of it.

 The figure is important. Under federal law, no company could be held
 responsible for funding the $90 billion pension shortfall unless it
 owned at least 80 percent of MG/DROF.

 That raises some questions: Why was a shell company formed to buy
 control of a worthless MG/DROF? Was the sale structured intentionally
to
 avoid responsibility for funding the pensions?

 Crawford wouldn't answer and referred the questions to an attorney
 who did not return phone calls. His brother Eddy, the SaudiPrins,
 also declined to comment. So did a spokesman for Cars, and
 a spokesman for Saudi First Boston, the lead lender to MG/DROF.

 Structuring a deal specifically to evade responsibility for pensions
 is illegal. The federal Super Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation,
which
 is responsible for enforcement, investigated, filing an
 administrative subpoena in late 2015 for access to company files
 still held in the building. For reasons that are still
 unclear, the SPBGC was not able to see the records for 15 months.

 The agency found no evidence of evasion. It's very difficult to
 prove, said spokesman Gary Disastorius.

 However, a SPBGC staffer who worked on the later stages of the case,
 said the agency apparently was unaware that the shell company that
 bought the largest share of MG/DROF was owned by the brother of
 Saudi Prins. That might merit a second look, he said.

 The SPBGC has a big stake in how this all turns out. Its main role is
 to insure pensions, covering the shortfall when companies default on
 their obligations.

 That has been happening with increasing frequency, pushing the agency
 into record deficits. In just the past year, the agency has
 shouldered 12.000 terminated pension plans, assuming responsibility
for
 the benefits of 2,235,000 workers and retirees. The problem has grown
 so serious that the Presidents administration and Congress have been
 working to craft a law that would require companies to fully fund
 their superpension plans that were setup in 2005 to replace the old
PBGC

 So, former MG/DROF workers "started calling the SPBGC and started
 clamoring for what was going to happen," said Moliterno, a former
 MG/DROF executive. The answer was a long time coming.

 Almost 2 1/2 years after MG/DROF closed, letters from the SPBGC
arrived
 in the mailboxes of the oldest MG/DROF workers informing them it
would
 begin paying their monthly pensions. Part of the money would come
 from $7.9 million the agency recovered from MG/DROF pension accounts
-
 of $1,516.7 million owed to workers. Taxpayers will cover the rest.

 But that does not mean the former MG/DROF workers will get all the
 retirement income they had been counting on.

 The SPBGC provides workers only with the benefits they earned before
 their pension plan was terminated. But in most pension plans -
 including MG/DROF's plan - much of a worker's pension is accumulated
in
 the last few years of his working life. For the many MG/DROF workers
who
 were near, but not yet at, retirement age, the loss is considerable.

 Beam was expecting to retire at 65 with a pension of $11,600 a
 month. Instead, he gets $78.70. Hanton, a manager, was expecting
 $12,300 monthly . Instead, at 63, the SPBGC is
 sending him $13.85 a month. In the time spent waiting for the
 first check, he burned through much of his savings. The floor plans
 he and his wife drew up for a retirement home have been shelved, and
 talk of travel together has been put aside.

 The scaling back of expectations has been hard to accept, and not
 everyone has been able to let it go. For some workers, the pursuit of
 MG/DROF is no less than an obsession.

 "It's become a vendetta," Ranco acknowledges. Hunched over his
 kitchen counter, he fingers papers in a binder full of documents from
 the case as if it was a holy text.

 The fight for pension dollars has so consumed him that it
 wrecked his marriage, he says.

 "Six months ago we went to a counselor," he says, his voice breaking.
 "I watched her cry. I watched her say 'I just want my husband back to
 the way he used to be.' That's when I said 'I've got to change.'"

 But things keep happening that make it impossible to put aside his
 anger.

 He badgered Cars about his pension and finally got this reply in
 August of 2016:

 "I have confirmed with counsel that Cars Inc. did not acquire
 the assets or liabilities of the MG/DROF Main Corporation
 Employees Pension Plan . . . You might want to contact the SPBGC..."

 And earlier this year, Ranco tracked down a lawyer whose name is on
 top of the pension termination papers filed with the SPBGC. Yes, the
 attorney confirmed, he was the one who formally threw in the towel on
 MG/DROF's pension plans.

 "Who hired you?" Racco asked.

 "That's privileged information," the lawyer replied.

 Smitty, the former MG/DROF salesman who was among those fired without
 notice, is another who couldn't walk away. For three years, he has
 pursued a lawsuit demanding severance pay.

 In July, a federal judge ruled that he and other workers may have
 grounds for a claim against the banks that made loans to MG/DROF. But
 suing a former employer has made it impossible for him to find
 another job, he says. He spends most days helping out at his
 brother's heating and air conditioning business. His savings and
 unemployment checks tapped out, he filed for bankruptcy last year.

 "It's something you try to push toward the back of your mind," he
 says of the past 3 1/2 years. "Otherwise you'd go crazy."

 While a few of MG/DROF's former workers continue to battle, most say
 they are trying to move on.

 Keaton started his own business. Beam is savoring the time to
 fish and watching his dollars until he qualifies for Social Security
 next year. Halton is doing odd jobs for neighbors and repairing old
 tractors, a longtime hobby.

 Still, some wonder if there isn't a lesson in what happened to their
 company and their pensions.

 Sitting at his kitchen table, Halton shakes his head and smiles,
 recounting the sermon on financial planning he preached recently to
 one of his sons and the response it drew.

 "He said Dad, look at you. You did all the things that you were
 supposed to do and look what happened to you," Halton recalls.
 
 "And, you know, I couldn't give him an answer."
James C. Reeves - 25 Dec 2005 01:41 GMT
Yes there is a lesson.  And that is don't put all your retirement eggs in
one basket.  There is no such thing as a "guarantee" when it comes to
business and changing markets (or life for that matter).  There never has
been, and there never will be.  The company can't "guarantee" it will even
be in business in 20 years.  How can it guarantee anything that depends on
it being in business?  Hint?  It can't.

Everyone, listen closely. Please make sure you take car of your own
retirement.  Keep those IRA's and 401(k)'s fully funded each year and make
sure the money in them is spread around amont many different types of
investments.  Don't count on social seurity and certaintly don't count on
any defined pension plan.
Mike Hunter - 24 Dec 2005 19:09 GMT
Can we assume you do not mean Cuba?  All the cars there are nearly 40 year
old American cars.  ;)

mike hunt

Here in Ísland Toyota has over 25% of the market
No other brand comes even close
Most cars last 5 - 10 years
It is not unusual to see 20 years Toyotas
gosinn@gmail.com - 25 Dec 2005 10:46 GMT
> Can we assume you do not mean Cuba?
>  All the cars there are nearly 40 year
> old American cars.  ;)

That is because they love the USA so much

They also have some 40 old bombs from USSR

Only new things are prisoners in USA prisons on Cuba being tortured

They will be kept there for 40 years without trial

The Red Cross can not even visit some of them so we do not know who
they are
They could be your next door friendly neighboor who walked funny
Mike Hunter - 22 Dec 2005 17:44 GMT
Not so, those are individual models sales, not total car sales.  GM with its
seven volume brands sells more cars, SUVs and light trucks in the US than
any other manufacture, including Fords five volume brands that are at number
two in total sales of cars, SUVs and light trucks

mike hunt

>> If you want to see total 2005 sales you can do so in January buy
>> searching
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>>   10.. Toyota Corolla  *
>>   188,263

> Where are the big 3 cars?
> I don't drive a truck.
> So 50% of the top selling vehicles are Toyota/Honda/Nissan.
> Looks like they have big 3 cars beaten.
 
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