Car Forum / GMC Cars / December 2005
GM Shares Fall to 18-Year-Low After Toyota Forecast
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Nomen Nescio - 20 Dec 2005 23:30 GMT > >GM Shares Fall to 18-Year-Low After Toyota Forecast > >Tuesday, December 20, 2005 > >Shares of General Motors Corp. (GM) fell to an 18-year low Tuesday after >Toyota Motor Corp. (TM) unveiled production plans for 2006 that increased >fears that it will topple GM as the world's largest automaker. > >Toyota said it plans to make a record 9.06 million cars in 2006, just shy >of the 9.15 million cars and trucks that some analysts expect GM to build >next year. > >Shares of GM were down 88 cents, or 4.2 percent, at $20.16 on the New York >Stock Exchange. The stock fell more than 5 percent to $19.63 earlier in >the day, its lowest point since 1987. Shares have plunged nearly 50 >percent this year. > >Toyota Motor Corp., Japan's top automaker, has been growing at a time when >General Motors Corp. has been stumbling, losing $1.6 billion in the third >quarter and seeing its market share in North America chipped away by Asian >automakers, including Toyota. > >Toyota's production target, announced by President Katsuaki Watanabe at a >news conference in Nagoya, central Japan, marks a 10 percent increase from >the 8.25 million vehicles Toyota expects to produce this year. > >Like Toyota, other Japanese automakers, including Honda Motor Co. and >Nissan Motor Co., are also in good health. > >Honda said Tuesday in Tokyo that it projects global sales in 2005 will >have risen 5 percent from a year earlier to a record 3.35 million >vehicles, while vehicle production worldwide will have gone up 7.2 percent >from last year to 3.41 million cars. > >Toyota said it expects to sell 8.85 million vehicles worldwide next year, >up 9 percent from 8.09 million estimated for this year. > >When not including its subsidiary automakers Hino and Daihatsu, Toyota >plans to produce 8.11 million vehicles next year, up 10 percent from 7.37 >million vehicles in 2005. > >GM does not provide sales or production forecasts on an annual basis, but >some analysts said the current trend points to GM's inevitable tumble to >second place for the first time in 70 years. > >"Toyota will probably be the largest producer in the world at the end of >2006," said Richard Hilgert, auto analyst at Fitch Ratings, citing GM's >slumping sales of large sport utility vehicles in the fuel-conscious market. > >Burnham Securities analyst David Healy expects GM to produce 9.15 million >vehicles in 2006, and expects Toyota to surpass GM as the world's largest >automaker in 2007. > >Peter Morici, University of Maryland economist and auto industry expert, >believes that GM, Ford Motor Co. and the United Auto Workers, the U.S. >labor union, do not enjoy much public sympathy, compared to the 1980s. > >"I do not believe the U.S. public will support protection for GM. If the >government does it, it will have to be veiled," he said. > >Detroit-based General Motors has announced drastic cost cuts, including >trimming 30,000 jobs, or 27 percent of its North American manufacturing >jobs, and the closure of 12 facilities by 2008. > >GM's U.S. market share fell to 26.2 percent in the first 10 months of this >year compared with 33 percent a decade ago, the result of increasing >competition from Asian rivals. Standard & Poor's Ratings Services lowered >GM's debt to "junk" status earlier this year. > >GM isn't the only U.S. automaker cutting costs. > >Ford Motor Co. (F), which reported a third-quarter loss of $284 million, >has said it plans to eliminate about 4,000 white-collar jobs in North >America early next year as part of a restructuring plan. > >Ford Chairman and CEO Bill Ford has said he plans to announce U.S. plant >closings and layoffs in January. > > SEARCH > >Click here for FOX News RSS Feeds > >Advertise on FOX News Channel, FOXNews.com and FOX News Radio >Jobs at FOX News Channel. >Internships at FOX News Channel (Accepting Fall Applications Now). >Terms of use. Privacy Statement. For FOXNews.com comments write to >foxnewsonline@foxnews.com; For FOX News Channel comments write to >comments@foxnews.com >© Associated Press. All rights reserved. >Copyright © 2005 ComStock, Inc. >This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed
xblazinlv - 21 Dec 2005 09:05 GMT I read an article saying Toyota will surpass GM in 2006
http://www.carforums.net/ Auto Forums
Scott - 21 Dec 2005 19:08 GMT >I read an article saying Toyota will surpass GM in 2006 > > http://www.carforums.net/ > Auto Forums Does this awful news make you happy? Why bother posting it here?
gosinn@gmail.com - 21 Dec 2005 19:21 GMT It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking
Scott - 21 Dec 2005 19:39 GMT > It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking I made a living working on those autos for some time. Fords for awhile too. Those companies employ quite a few people in this country.
So I fail to see what is so damn funny about them both having declining sales and the resulting unemployment of Americans. If you find humor in this somehow, I have a sign for you.
gosinn@gmail.com - 21 Dec 2005 20:47 GMT Good smart people are already leaving and have joined other companies that are making good cars for the future
Mike Marlow - 22 Dec 2005 13:02 GMT > > It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > of Americans. > If you find humor in this somehow, I have a sign for you. Don't waste your breath Scott. There's an entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about.
 Signature -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
Charge - 22 Dec 2005 18:47 GMT It is too bad Mr. Mike Marlow simply cites "There's an entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about."
Apparently, he is very short sided in his lame attempt to explain "entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about."
Apparently that "entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about" and Mr. Marlow need economics 101 classes of how the resultant multiplier effect of mass production that creates jobs in other domestic private industries.
However, it is very possible members of that generation does have a concept of what "Scott" <homealone.com> is referring.
Maybe many of them suffer from being apathetic. Hopefully GM, Delphi, Ford and others will rebound due to "an entire generation" that will learn concepts that may minimize or eliminate their apathy.
The resultant multiplier effect of domestic mass production that creates jobs and thus a better standard of living for many families and people including Mr. Marlow to enjoy their purchasing power of good disposable income.
Yes to the disgust of domestic manufacturers having to contend with the upstart foreign marketers that actually insult without American consumers knowing. "Made for Sale in the USA" seems to be the modis operandi for many of those upstart foreign marketers whittling away at USA market share.
To chastise GM's domestic automobile manufacturing and marketing existence that has helped fuel our nations annual output of goods and services for many years is a lame attempt to justify why he won't post his gibberish on alt.autos.toyota.
Don't forget GE, GM, Ford, IBM and others helped our nation through the bad times of the Great Depression and WWII.
Where is our loyalty at as citizens consuming domestic manufactured products?
I will give you a clue it doesn't happen at Wally World with "big boxes" containing products from China!
The question is not about "entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about" but educate that generation and stimulate an appreciation of the American way of life for a higher standard of living than their counterparts all over the World.
To conclude "Don't waste your breath Scott." "There's an entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about" is a bad excuse for the apathy of "an entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about".
> > "Scott" <homealone.com> wrote in message > news:11qjbpvnnbp5udf@corp.supernews.com... >> >> <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message >> news:1135192888.371150.258510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> > It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking >> >> I made a living working on those autos for some time. >> Fords for awhile too. >> Those companies employ quite a few people in this country. >> >> So I fail to see what is so damn funny about them >> both having declining sales and the resulting unemployment >> of Americans. >> If you find humor in this somehow, I have a sign for you. >> >> >> > > Don't waste your breath Scott. There's an entire generation that has no > concept of what you're talking about. > > -- > > -Mike- > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > >
Mike Marlow - 23 Dec 2005 03:51 GMT > It is too bad Mr. Mike Marlow simply cites "There's an entire generation > that has [quoted text clipped - 92 lines] > > > > I think that there is a salient thought somewhere in that diatribe, but it's lost in the writing style. Perhaps you'd consider expressing your thoughts in a more readable and intelligible style?
 Signature -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
gosinn@gmail.com - 23 Dec 2005 10:06 GMT > I think that there is a salient thought somewhere in that diatribe, but it's > lost in the writing style. Perhaps you'd consider expressing your thoughts > in a more readable and intelligible style? I second that
It is very difficult to see if he is for or against anything
What I gather from some is that they own shares and are trying to will them up again
Also some people are against closures of factories because some people loose jobs and they should be kept open even though nobody wants to buy the cars just for the sake of the jobs in the factories
Lets say they do keep on producing cars people do not want to buy Is that not similar to what it used to be in the central planning of the USSR
The world turns in funny circles
There is a simple correlation between bad management, bad sales, falling shares
Attaching them who talk about it does not solve anything
I can understand those who own shares but just trying to will them up does not do anything for the share price
If I had GM shares now I would sell sell sell before I lost more
Mike Hunter - 23 Dec 2005 17:38 GMT Vehicles nobody wants? Your are kidding, right? Even though it percentage, of the near nineteen million vehicles sold in 2005 is down, GM still sells more vehicles in the US than any other manufacture. Well over a million more than its nearest competitor, Ford and more than three times as many as Toyota. Get real
mike hunt
> Also some people are against closures of factories because some people > loose jobs and they should be kept open even though nobody wants to buy > the cars just for the sake of the jobs in the factories gosinn@gmail.com - 23 Dec 2005 18:04 GMT If you produce more than you sell you are obviously producing too much and what is too much is something nobody wants at the price stated
Company that shows loss and is loosing money is not doing everything ok
Mike Hunter - 24 Dec 2005 19:16 GMT You mean like Toyotas overproduction of 2005 Camry?
> If you produce more than you sell you are obviously producing too much > and what is too much is something nobody wants at the price stated > > Company that shows loss and is loosing money is not doing everything ok Spam Hater - 23 Dec 2005 20:09 GMT > If I had GM shares now I would sell sell sell before I lost more Very good advise.
Charge - 23 Dec 2005 19:15 GMT > > "Charge" <someone@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message > news:wxCqf.210653$Hs.47104@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... >> It is too bad Mr. Mike Marlow simply cites "There's an entire generation >> that has >> no concept of what you're talking about." >> >> Apparently, he is very short sided in his lame attempt to explain >> "entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about." >> >> Apparently that "entire generation that has no concept of what you're >> talking about" >> and Mr. Marlow need economics 101 classes of how the resultant > multiplier >> effect >> of mass production that creates jobs in other domestic private > industries. >> >> However, it is very possible members of that generation does have >> a concept of what "Scott" <homealone.com> is referring. >> >> Maybe many of them suffer from being apathetic. Hopefully GM, Delphi, >> Ford >> and others will rebound due to "an entire generation" that will learn >> concepts >> that may minimize or eliminate their apathy. >> >> The resultant multiplier effect of domestic mass production that creates >> jobs >> and thus a better standard of living for many families and people >> including >> Mr. Marlow to enjoy their purchasing power of good disposable income. >> >> Yes to the disgust of domestic manufacturers having to contend with the >> upstart >> foreign marketers that actually insult without American consumers > knowing. >> "Made for Sale in the USA" seems to be the modis operandi for many of >> those >> upstart foreign marketers whittling away at USA market share. >> >> To chastise GM's domestic automobile manufacturing and marketing > existence >> that has helped fuel our nations annual output of goods and services for >> many years >> is a lame attempt to justify why he won't post his gibberish on >> alt.autos.toyota. >> >> Don't forget GE, GM, Ford, IBM and others helped our nation through the >> bad >> times of the Great Depression and WWII. >> >> Where is our loyalty at as citizens consuming domestic manufactured >> products? >> >> I will give you a clue it doesn't happen at Wally World with "big boxes" >> containing >> products from China! >> >> The question is not about "entire generation that has no concept of what >> you're >> talking about" but educate that generation and stimulate an appreciation >> of the >> American way of life for a higher standard of living than their >> counterparts all >> over the World. >> >> To conclude "Don't waste your breath Scott." "There's an entire >> generation >> that has no concept of what you're talking about" is a bad excuse for > the >> apathy >> of "an entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking >> about". >> >> >> >> >> >> "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net> wrote in message >> news:2060d$43aaa411$45289469$24069@ALLTEL.NET... >> > >> > "Scott" <homealone.com> wrote in message >> > news:11qjbpvnnbp5udf@corp.supernews.com... >> >> >> >> <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> news:1135192888.371150.258510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> >> > It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking >> >> >> >> I made a living working on those autos for some time. >> >> Fords for awhile too. >> >> Those companies employ quite a few people in this country. >> >> >> >> So I fail to see what is so damn funny about them >> >> both having declining sales and the resulting unemployment >> >> of Americans. >> >> If you find humor in this somehow, I have a sign for you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Don't waste your breath Scott. There's an entire generation that has > no >> > concept of what you're talking about. >> > >> > -- >> > >> > -Mike- >> > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> > >> > >> >> > > I think that there is a salient thought somewhere in that diatribe, but it's > lost in the writing style. Perhaps you'd consider expressing your thoughts > in a more readable and intelligible style? > > -- > > -Mike- > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > >
I did not intend for my "diatribe" to be lost in "salient thought".
My intent was to stimulate one's understanding that the welfare of the American economy is at stake!
Apparently, I was unsuccessful in conveying my "diatribe" in plain E N G L I S H but was lost in "salient thought".
Hopefully GM, Delphi, Ford and others will rebound due to "an entire generation" that will learn concepts that may minimize or eliminate their apathy.
Maybe I should have made reference to how dumb Americans can be on alt.auto.toyota. by praising foreign manufacturers.
Charge - 23 Dec 2005 19:20 GMT > > "Charge" <someone@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message > news:wxCqf.210653$Hs.47104@tornado.ohiordc.rr.com... >> It is too bad Mr. Mike Marlow simply cites "There's an entire generation >> that has >> no concept of what you're talking about." >> >> Apparently, he is very short sided in his lame attempt to explain >> "entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking about." >> >> Apparently that "entire generation that has no concept of what you're >> talking about" >> and Mr. Marlow need economics 101 classes of how the resultant > multiplier >> effect >> of mass production that creates jobs in other domestic private > industries. >> >> However, it is very possible members of that generation does have >> a concept of what "Scott" <homealone.com> is referring. >> >> Maybe many of them suffer from being apathetic. Hopefully GM, Delphi, >> Ford >> and others will rebound due to "an entire generation" that will learn >> concepts >> that may minimize or eliminate their apathy. >> >> The resultant multiplier effect of domestic mass production that creates >> jobs >> and thus a better standard of living for many families and people >> including >> Mr. Marlow to enjoy their purchasing power of good disposable income. >> >> Yes to the disgust of domestic manufacturers having to contend with the >> upstart >> foreign marketers that actually insult without American consumers > knowing. >> "Made for Sale in the USA" seems to be the modis operandi for many of >> those >> upstart foreign marketers whittling away at USA market share. >> >> To chastise GM's domestic automobile manufacturing and marketing > existence >> that has helped fuel our nations annual output of goods and services for >> many years >> is a lame attempt to justify why he won't post his gibberish on >> alt.autos.toyota. >> >> Don't forget GE, GM, Ford, IBM and others helped our nation through the >> bad >> times of the Great Depression and WWII. >> >> Where is our loyalty at as citizens consuming domestic manufactured >> products? >> >> I will give you a clue it doesn't happen at Wally World with "big boxes" >> containing >> products from China! >> >> The question is not about "entire generation that has no concept of what >> you're >> talking about" but educate that generation and stimulate an appreciation >> of the >> American way of life for a higher standard of living than their >> counterparts all >> over the World. >> >> To conclude "Don't waste your breath Scott." "There's an entire >> generation >> that has no concept of what you're talking about" is a bad excuse for > the >> apathy >> of "an entire generation that has no concept of what you're talking >> about". >> >> >> >> >> >> "Mike Marlow" <mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net> wrote in message >> news:2060d$43aaa411$45289469$24069@ALLTEL.NET... >> > >> > "Scott" <homealone.com> wrote in message >> > news:11qjbpvnnbp5udf@corp.supernews.com... >> >> >> >> <gosinn@gmail.com> wrote in message >> >> news:1135192888.371150.258510@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... >> >> > It is good fun to watch the Titanic sinking >> >> >> >> I made a living working on those autos for some time. >> >> Fords for awhile too. >> >> Those companies employ quite a few people in this country. >> >> >> >> So I fail to see what is so damn funny about them >> >> both having declining sales and the resulting unemployment >> >> of Americans. >> >> If you find humor in this somehow, I have a sign for you. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > Don't waste your breath Scott. There's an entire generation that has > no >> > concept of what you're talking about. >> > >> > -- >> > >> > -Mike- >> > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> > >> > >> >> > > I think that there is a salient thought somewhere in that diatribe, but it's > lost in the writing style. Perhaps you'd consider expressing your thoughts > in a more readable and intelligible style? > > -- > > -Mike- > mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > >
Spam Hater - 23 Dec 2005 20:08 GMT > The resultant multiplier effect of domestic mass production that creates > jobs [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > those > upstart foreign marketers whittling away at USA market share. Toyota and Honda are hardly upstart "foreign" vehicle companies. You are spreading misinformation or perhaps you just don't know what is going on. How about the Toyota vehicle sold by GM, the Mazada vehicle sold by Ford, the Ford vehicle sold by Ford? The big 3 have been in bed with those nasty foreign companies for some time, with their joint projects.
Mike Hunter - 21 Dec 2005 21:37 GMT Not to worry that. Toyota news release refers to Toyotas prediction of its CAR sales worldwide, not total number of VEHICLES sold. Certainly not to cars and/or truck sales in the US, where Toyota is a distant fourth far behind GM, Ford and Chrysler. In the US the top selling vehicles are light trucks not cars. For example Ford sells nearly twice as many F150s, the number one selling vehicle on the planet. Toyota has the number one selling car, the Camry, although 2005 Camry sales are off over 4% from 2004 and F150 sales are up 2% over 2004. GM and Dodge also sell their trucks at a much higher rate than does the Camry ;)
mike hunt
>>I read an article saying Toyota will surpass GM in 2006 >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Does this awful news make you happy? > Why bother posting it here? Al Bundy - 21 Dec 2005 22:46 GMT > Not to worry that. Toyota news release refers to Toyotas prediction of its > CAR sales worldwide, not total number of VEHICLES sold. Certainly not to [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > >Thank you Mike for apologizing for GM. That head in the sand attitude is why GM is where they are. The numbers are all out there for folks to see when they take the blinders off. John Horner - 21 Dec 2005 23:01 GMT > Not to worry that. Toyota news release refers to Toyotas prediction of its > CAR sales worldwide, not total number of VEHICLES sold. Certainly not to > cars and/or truck sales in the US, where Toyota is a distant fourth far > behind GM, Ford and Chrysler. Wrong sir.
Here, for example, are the total VEHICLE sales for the US in November 2005 with a comparison to 2004. The numbers reported are for vehicles, not just cars. Toyota passed Chrysler and is at the heals of Ford in the US. Internationally Toyota is much stronger.
Reference:
http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-autos2dec02,1,6570851.story?coll=la-headli nes-business
Maker Sales Change from 11/04 GM 274,686 -7.6% Ford 185,852 -14.7% Toyota 169,665 +10.0% Chrysler* 159,898 -2.7% Honda 105,860 +10.8% Nissan 77,212 -3.9% Hyundai 33,383 +12.5%
For 2005 GM is expected to produce about 9 million vehicles worldwide compared to Toyota at 8.1 million vehicles. For 2006 GM is closing factories and Toyota is opening them, hence the many forcasts saying that 2006 may be the year Toyota exceeds GM worldwide vehicle production. See:
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/11/23/149102.html
You have used the trucks vs. cars argument before, but the data simply does not agree with your repeated assertion. Unless something completely unexpected happens, the trends are clearly indicating that in either 2006 or 2007 Toyota is going to produce and sell more vehicles (cars & trucks) worldwide than GM will.
It might also be noted that these numbers include all sales channels, traditional retail as well as fleet & rental. In the US at least, GM and Ford both push a much higher fraction of their output into non-retail channels then do Toyota, Nissan and Honda.
John
Mike Hunter - 22 Dec 2005 03:27 GMT My reference is not to comparable monthly sales, but year to date sales within the US. The F150 has sold 939,511 units in ten months of 2005, more than twice Camry sales. In the US GM is number one is sales, Ford two, Chrysler three and Toyota is still fourth. What kept Toyota above Honda in 2005 was truck sales, not cars.
Toyota may indeed outsell GM in cars worldwide but GM and Ford do not sell the micro cars and trucks like those sold around the world by the Japanese.
Your figures for US sales are way off. Here are the totals for just the first SIX month of sales in the US from 'Automotive News'. As you can see the F150 sells at twice the rate of the Camry The Dodge ram has since moved up to third place Toyotas trucks in total do not even make the top twenty in sales.
When it comes to fleet sales ALL manufactures offer comparable discounts to fleets. Corporate fleet owners just happen to PREFER Ford and GM over imports.
If you want to see total 2005 sales you can do so in January buy searching 'Automotive News' 1.. Ford F-Series 694,690
2.. Chevrolet Silverado 570,278
3.. Toyota Camry 326,149
4.. Dodge Ram 319,912
5.. Honda Accord 292,398
6.. Honda Civic 233,838
7.. Nissan Altima 205,145
8.. Ford Explorer 196,878
9.. Chevrolet TrailBlazer 190,964
10.. Toyota Corolla 188,263
>> Not to worry that. Toyota news release refers to Toyotas prediction of >> its CAR sales worldwide, not total number of VEHICLES sold. Certainly >> not to cars and/or truck sales in the US, where Toyota is a distant >> fourth far behind GM, Ford and Chrysler. In the US the top selling >> vehicles are light trucks not cars. For example Ford sells twice as many F150s, the number one selling vehicle on the planet. Toyota has the number one selling car, the Camry, although 2005 Camry sales are off over 4% from 2004 and F150 sales are up 2% over 2004. GM and Dodge also sell their trucks at a much higher rate than does the Camry ;)
> Wrong sir. > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > John Spam Hater - 22 Dec 2005 06:09 GMT > If you want to see total 2005 sales you can do so in January buy searching > 'Automotive News' [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > 10.. Toyota Corolla * > 188,263 Where are the big 3 cars? I don't drive a truck. So 50% of the top selling vehicles are Toyota/Honda/Nissan. Looks like they have big 3 cars beaten.
gosinn@gmail.com - 22 Dec 2005 10:44 GMT Most impotantly is what and who are growing Quality cars are growing People are shopping around on the internet and are becoming more quality minded When you buy a car you are thinking about its value the next 10 years or so It is no longer just the looks of the car at the time of purchase You think about the totla costs of ownership You think about the reselling value You think about the environment You think about the costs maintenance You think about the price of fuel That is why GM is falling The do not think about the totla costs of ownership The do not think about the reselling value The do not think about the environment The do not think about the costs maintenance The do not think about the price of fuel So it is easy to understand why GM is falling Your objectives and theirs do not match They live in the past You live now and in the future
Mike Hunter - 22 Dec 2005 17:35 GMT That may be your opinion but your are not even close with that assessment of why buyers buy the vehicles they buy. After more than ten years as Group Sales Manager of one of the largest mega dealership groups on the east cost that sold just about every brand, I can assure you the most asked question before a customer signs on the dotted line has nothing to do with only of that. The final determining question is always "How much in my monthly payment?" LOL
Better do a bit of research, the average new car buyer in the US replaces their new vehicle with another new vehicle in three or four year, with 30K to 45K miles on the clock. Only a small percentage of new car purchasers keep their vehicle for seven years, let alone ten years.
PS GM offers more vehicles that get over 30 MPG than ANY other manufacture, ten more than Toyota for instance. GM even offers a car with a V8 that gets over 30 MPG.
mike hunt
> Most impotantly is what and who are growing > Quality cars are growing [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > They live in the past > You live now and in the future gosinn@gmail.com - 22 Dec 2005 18:01 GMT If you look at it from the cars perspective then it has often several owners over its lifetime I guess it is fair to say that average lifetime of a car is roughly 10 years and it is reasonable to count all costs related to the car over that timeframe
The monthly payments do reflect on all the above mentioned items You buy a car and you sell it a few years later You have to maintain it and put on it fuel All of these items result in a price that is then what the user has to pay one way or the other
The longer lifespan of a car is, the more you can get for it when you sell it, the less you have to pay for maintenace and fuel all show up sooner or later
Because it is often later it takes a long time for a user to find out that he might have been better off with a different car it takes a long time for that change to happen
The reason for why you buy something today is very often related to your past experience, other peoples experiences and in a word related to a cars and it producers image
It takes a hell of a lot of time to build up a good image
It takes a lot less time to loose it
And when you have lost it you have to work a lot harder to get it again
Getting a girl first time can be difficult Perform well and you get her easily again Perform not so well Welll.....
Spam Hater - 23 Dec 2005 20:02 GMT > PS GM offers more vehicles that get over 30 MPG than ANY other manufacture, > ten more than Toyota for instance. GM even offers a car with a V8 that gets > over 30 MPG. I rented a 2005 Impalla last Sep that got great fuel mileage, but it was a pain to drive. Just not responsive and handling was so so. I wouldn't trade my 1995 Chrysler Concord for it.
gosinn@gmail.com - 23 Dec 2005 20:10 GMT Here in Ísland Toyota has over 25% of the market No other brand comes even close Most cars last 5 - 10 years It is not unusual to see 20 years Toyotas
Charge - 24 Dec 2005 08:06 GMT >EDITOR'S NOTE: In the years after World War II, thousands of >companies made a promise to their workers: Invest your most >productive years with us, and we'll take care of you with a pension >when your working days are over. In recent years, though, hundreds of >thousands of workers and retirees have seen those promises broken. >This is the story of how that happened at one small Ohio company. > >HOWLAND, Ohio (AP) _It had been another tense week at Ajax >Magnethermic Corp. But after 35 years at the struggling company, Jim >Necastro was glad just to have his job, especially with retirement a >few years away. > >Certainly that was worth a toast on this June afternoon. He cracked >open a cold beer and stretched out on his backyard patio. > >Then Don, a neighbor who worked for a local security company, came >trotting across the lawn. > >"Hey, Jimmy," the neighbor half-shouted. "My guard just called me >from Ajax. He said they just closed and he's supposed to lock the >gates." > >By evening, the windows of the plant on Overland Avenue were dark, >the gates were padlocked and a sign hung from the chain-link: "Closed >Until Further Notice." > >The shutdown was so sudden and unexplained that even the following >Monday, 90 of Ajax's 138 employees showed up for work. > >Necastro's job was gone, but that was hardly his only worry. > >Somewhere behind the padlocks, alongside the stilled machines and >vacant desks, could his pension be in there too? > > > >A pension is a promise. And through the years, Ajax's workers had no >reason to doubt the word of the company's owners, three men who knew >each worker by name. > >But then the company changed hands. And changed hands again. And then >again. By 2002, Ajax was owned by a subsidiary of Citigroup Inc., the >nation's biggest bank. And when Citigroup decided to walk away from >Ajax, that promise was lost. > >Nobody ever explained to Ajax workers nearing retirement just how >that could be the case. They would have to figure it out on their >own. It would take three years of waiting, of sifting through clues >and wrestling with bureaucracies. > >Three years to learn that thousands of dollars they'd been counting >on would not be coming. > > > >Necastro was just 22 when he returned home in 1967 after serving on >an aircraft carrier off Vietnam. He had been back a week when he >found work in the test lab at Ajax. > >The company, housed in a former military tank factory - a box of red >brick and murky glass just outside the manufacturing town of Warren, >Ohio - employed a hundred or so people then. Its president, John >Logan, and his two partners often strode the plant floor, greeting >workers by name. > >"You could talk to those guys," an Ajax veteran, Art Racco, said. >"They knew what you built. They knew how complicated it was." > >The company wasn't big, but it played a key role in the Mahoning >River Valley's gritty, thriving economy, making electric melting >equipment for the area's steel mills. > >Necastro didn't expect to stay long. But it was a comfortable place >where co-workers became his closest friends, sharing poolside >barbecues and Caribbean cruises together. Long after Necastro's first >marriage failed, his friendships at Ajax remained strong. > >But by the time he finished a third decade at Ajax, things were >changing. Most of the steel mills in this valley 50 miles southeast >of Cleveland had been shuttered. Many storefronts east of Warren's >historic courthouse square had gone dark. Logan and his partners were >gone too, selling out to a British conglomerate, BBA Group PLC. > >And by the 1990s, business was flagging. > >But a venture capital company owned by Citigroup Inc. looked at Ajax >and saw opportunity. In 1998, with a few Ajax executives as minority >partners, it bought the company with $135 million borrowed from a >consortium of banks, and put the debt on Ajax's books. > >The plan: build the business, pay down the debt, and sell the company >at a profit. > >At the time, Ajax was still a going concern. But could it do well >enough to survive this huge new debt? As the months dragged on, >office workers who got glimpses of Ajax's books whispered that >profits were not increasing fast enough to pay it down. > >As months ticked by without a sale of Ajax, workers nearing >retirement started worrying whether that might affect their pensions. >The company tried to reassure them. > >"There have been a number of rumors and discussions circulating >regarding the possibility that either Ajax or its new parent, >Citicorp Venture Capital, might modify the pension plans," it told >workers in a 1999 memo. "It is important that each of you be aware >that ... plan benefits earned as of any given date (known as accrued >benefits) cannot be eliminated, changed or removed by any company." > >But the rumors persisted. So in 2001, David Holmquist, a company >lawyer, gathered workers in the Ajax lunchroom to soothe concerns. >One worker captured it on videotape. > >"What happens if we go bankrupt?" a worker shouted from the back of >the room. > >Holmquist paused, as if pondering his answer. > >"Our bankruptcy lawyers will do just fine," he said. "The company has >no right to any of the money in the pension plan except if the plan >is terminated and there are more funds than needed to give everybody >... all the money that they have earned." > >At the time, Holmquist assured them, money the company had set aside >for their pensions was sufficient to pay them what they had coming to >them. That was true, in part, because much of the pension money was >invested in the stock market, which had been booming. But what had >gone up would soon come down. > >Meanwhile, workers found new reasons to worry. > >In 2002, the company shut Ajax's satellite plant in Richmond, Ky. > >"What about our retirement benefits?" workers there wrote to the CEO. >"Will we be left with nothing?" > >Dave Hanton, a midlevel manager in Howland, began stopping by the >desks or calling the homes of co-workers over 55, asking them to chip >in to hire a lawyer to check on their pensions. About 100 workers >kicked in $50 each. > >A few workers, including Tom Kearney, who had 28 years with the >company, asked if they could get the value of their pension in a lump >sum if they retired immediately. As Kearney remembers it, the answer >was no. > >Then, more bad news. > >In May 2002, the company announced it was scrapping severance pay. >Two days later, nearly 60 employees were called into the cafeteria >and told they were terminated. Two weeks later, the company announced >that "due to unforeseen events" it was eliminating health insurance. > >Finally, on the afternoon of June 28, Ajax ran out of rope. It was >out of cash and its lenders would give it no more. > >"I and a few others sniffed it out," says Lou Moliterno, a former >Ajax vice president. "At 3 o'clock, I actually threw together a box >of some stuff ... and rushed it out to my car." > >By evening, the gates were shackled. > >"Ajax Magnethermic," says Tom Illencik, then an Ajax middle manager, >"closed and ceases to exist." > > > >Abandoned employees puzzled over what to do. > >"Not sold. Not bankrupt? How do I get pension?" Necastro scribbled in >a note to himself. > >As it turned out, money set aside for the pensions was still safe, >but there wasn't as much of it now. The stock market had plummeted >and interest rates had dropped, leaving the pension accounts holding >less than half of what was needed to pay promised benefits. > >With Ajax shuttered, who was responsible for making up the >difference? > >In their search for answers, workers flocked to Mother_Ajax, an >Internet discussion board set up by Mike Smith, a salesman who lost >his job in the May layoffs. > >That's where many first heard about a deal to resurrect Ajax. It was >complex, and some elements of it are still unclear. But the paper >trail - contained in county court papers, state incorporation >records, federal pension files obtained through a Freedom of >Information Act request, and securities filings - tells much of the >story. > >The banks that were Ajax's main creditors decided to get out of the >business with what they could. In July 2002, they sold the right to >collect the debt for pennies on the dollar. > >Park-Ohio Holdings Corp., a Cleveland company, was the buyer, in a >deal that essentially gave it control over how Ajax would be >liquidated. Park-Ohio reopened the plant, gradually rehired many >workers and then acquired Ajax's equipment and assets. > >But Park-Ohio did not buy Ajax itself - so it had no legal >responsibility for the promised pensions. > >Those responsibilities remained with Ajax, now an empty vessel, still >owned almost entirely by Citigroup's venture capital company. But not >for long. > >Citigroup sold most of its interest in Ajax to a shell company set up >just for that purpose by Jerry Crawford, brother of Park-Ohio's >chairman and CEO. > >When the deal was done, ownership in Ajax was dispersed, with no one >owning 80 percent of it. > >The figure is important. Under federal law, no company could be held >responsible for funding the $9 million pension shortfall unless it >owned at least 80 percent of Ajax. > >That raises some questions: Why was a shell company formed to buy >control of a worthless Ajax? Was the sale structured intentionally to >avoid responsibility for funding the pensions? > >Crawford wouldn't answer and referred the questions to an attorney >who did not return phone calls. His brother Edward, the Park-Ohio >CEO, also declined to comment. So did a spokesman for Citigroup, and >a spokesman for Credit Suisse First Boston, the lead lender to Ajax. > >Structuring a deal specifically to evade responsibility for pensions >is illegal. The federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, which >is responsible for enforcement, investigated, filing an >administrative subpoena in late 2002 for access to company files >still held in the Howland Avenue building. For reasons that are still >unclear, the PBGC was not able to see the records for 15 months. > >The agency found no evidence of evasion. It's very difficult to >prove, said spokesman Gary Pastorius. > >However, a PBGC staffer who worked on the later stages of the case, >said the agency apparently was unaware that the shell company that >bought the largest share of Ajax was owned by the brother of >Park-Ohio's CEO. That might merit a second look, he said. > >The PBGC has a big stake in how this all turns out. Its main role is >to insure pensions, covering the shortfall when companies default on >their obligations. > >That has been happening with increasing frequency, pushing the agency >into record deficits. In just the past year, the agency has >shouldered 120 terminated pension plans, assuming responsibility for >the benefits of 235,000 workers and retirees. The problem has grown >so serious that the Bush administration and Congress have been >working to craft a law that would require companies to fully fund >their pension plans. > >So, former Ajax workers "started calling the PBGC and started >clamoring for what was going to happen," said Moliterno, a former >Ajax executive. The answer was a long time coming. > >Almost 2 1/2 years after Ajax closed, letters from the PBGC arrived >in the mailboxes of the oldest Ajax workers informing them it would >begin paying their monthly pensions. Part of the money would come >from $7.9 million the agency recovered from Ajax pension accounts - >of $16.7 million owed to workers. Taxpayers will cover the rest. > >But that does not mean the former Ajax workers will get all the >retirement income they had been counting on. > >The PBGC provides workers only with the benefits they earned before >their pension plan was terminated. But in most pension plans - >including Ajax's plan - much of a worker's pension is accumulated in >the last few years of his working life. For the many Ajax workers who >were near, but not yet at, retirement age, the loss is considerable. > >Necastro was expecting to retire at 65 with a pension of $1,600 a >month. Instead, he gets $785.70. Hanton, a manager, was expecting >$2,300 monthly or a $344,000 lump sum. Instead, at 63, the PBGC is >sending him $1,305.85 a month. In the time spent waiting for the >first check, he burned through much of his savings. The floor plans >he and his wife drew up for a retirement home have been shelved, and >talk of travel together has been put aside. > >The scaling back of expectations has been hard to accept, and not >everyone has been able to let it go. For some workers, the pursuit of >Ajax is no less than an obsession. > >"It's become a vendetta," Racco acknowledges. Hunched over his >kitchen counter, he fingers papers in a binder full of documents from >the case as if it was a holy text. > >The fight for pension dollars has so consumed him that it nearly >wrecked his marriage, he says. > >"Six months ago we went to a counselor," he says, his voice breaking. >"I watched her cry. I watched her say 'I just want my husband back to >the way he used to be.' That's when I said 'I've got to change.'" > >But things keep happening that make it impossible to put aside his >anger. > >He badgered Citigroup about his pension and finally got this reply in >August of 2004: > >"I have confirmed with counsel that Citigroup Inc. did not acquire >the assets or liabilities of the Ajax Magnethermic Corporation >Employees Pension Plan . . . You might want to contact the PBGC..." > >And earlier this year, Racco tracked down a lawyer whose name is on >top of the pension termination papers filed with the PBGC. Yes, the >attorney confirmed, he was the one who formally threw in the towel on >Ajax's pension plans. > >"Who hired you?" Racco asked. > >"That's privileged information," the lawyer replied. > >Smith, the former Ajax salesman who was among those fired without >notice, is another who couldn't walk away. For three years, he has >pursued a lawsuit demanding severance pay. > >In July, a federal judge ruled that he and other workers may have >grounds for a claim against the banks that made loans to Ajax. But >suing a former employer has made it impossible for him to find >another job, he says. He spends most days helping out at his >brother's heating and air conditioning business. His savings and >unemployment checks tapped out, he filed for bankruptcy last year. > >"It's something you try to push toward the back of your mind," he >says of the past 3 1/2 years. "Otherwise you'd go crazy." > >While a few of Ajax's former workers continue to battle, most say >they are trying to move on. > >Kearney started his own business. Necastro is savoring the time to >fish and watching his dollars until he qualifies for Social Security >next year. Hanton is doing odd jobs for neighbors and repairing old >tractors, a longtime hobby. > >Still, some wonder if there isn't a lesson in what happened to their >company and their pensions. > >Sitting at his kitchen table, Hanton shakes his head and smiles, >recounting the sermon on financial planning he preached recently to >one of his sons and the response it drew. > >"He said Dad, look at you. You did all the things that you were >supposed to do and look what happened to you," Hanton recalls. > >"And, you know, I couldn't give him an answer." > >
Here in Ísland Toyota has over 25% of the market
So What! Read the above email closer!
"No other brand comes even close" To what?
Oh boy what other startling revelations do you plan to let us know about from rice rocket land.
"Most cars last 5 - 10 years"
Humm, My 1939 Plymouth stock P-8 Coupe and 1977 stock Caprice Classic are both driveable!
"It is not unusual to see 20 years Toyotas"
Oh what does that prove? I have seen many in a junk yards!
gosinn@gmail.com - 24 Dec 2005 12:48 GMT FUTURE NOTE: In the year 2005, car made a promise to their workers: Invest your most productive years with us, and well take care of you with a pension when your working days are over. In recent years, though, hundreds of thousands of workers and retirees have seen those promises broken. This is the story of how that happened at one small car company.
DETROIT: It had been another tense week at MG/DROF carcompany. But after years at the struggling company, Jim Beam was glad just to have his job, especially with retirement a few years away.
Certainly that was worth a toast on this June afternoon. He cracked open a cold beer and stretched out on his backyard patio.
Then Don, a neighbor who worked for a local security company, came trotting across the lawn.
"Hey, Jimmy," the neighbor half-shouted. "My guard just called me from MG/DROF. He said they just closed and he's supposed to lock the gates."
By evening, the windows of the plant on Rodeo Drive were dark, the gates were padlocked and a sign hung from the chain-link: "Closed Until Further Notice."
The shutdown was so sudden and unexplained that even the following Monday, 900 of MG/DROF's 1380 employees showed up for work.
Beam's job was gone, but that was hardly his only worry.
Somewhere behind the padlocks, alongside the stilled machines and vacant desks, could his pension be in there too?
A pension is a promise. And through the years, MG/DROF's workers had no reason to doubt the word of the company's owners, three men who knew each worker by name.
But then the company changed hands. And changed hands again. And then again. By 2002, MG/DROF was owned by a subsidiary of Cars Inc., the nation's biggest bank. And when Cars decided to walk away from MG/DROF, that promise was lost.
Nobody ever explained to MG/DROF workers nearing retirement just how that could be the case. They would have to figure it out on their own. It would take three years of waiting, of sifting through clues and wrestling with bureaucracies.
Three years to learn that thousands of dollars they'd been counting on would not be coming.
Beam was just 22 when he returned home in 2005 after serving on an aircraft carrier off Iraq. He had been back a week when he found work in the test lab at MG/DROF.
The company, housed in a former military tank factory - a box of red brick and murky glass just outside the manufacturing town of Promise, employed several hundred or so people then. Its president, Jack Daniels, and his two partners often strode the plant floor, greeting workers by name.
"You could talk to those guys," an MG/DROF veteran, Art Garfunkel, said. "They knew what you built. They knew how complicated it was."
The company wasn't big, but it played a key role in the cities, thriving economy, making electric melting equipment for the area's steel mills.
Beam didn't expect to stay long. But it was a comfortable place where co-workers became his closest friends, sharing poolside barbecues and Caribbean cruises together. Long after Beam's first marriage failed, his friendships at MG/DROF remained strong.
But by the time he finished a third decade at MG/DROF, things were changing. Most of the steel mills in this valley 50 miles southeast had been shuttered. Many storefronts east of historic courthouse square had gone dark. Daniels and his partners were gone too, selling out to a Saudi conglomerate, SBA Group PLC.
And by the 2010s, business was flagging.
But a venture capital company owned by Cars Inc. looked at MG/DROF and saw opportunity. In 2011, with a few MG/DROF executives as minority partners, it bought the company with $1350 million borrowed from a consortium of banks, and put the debt on MG/DROF's books.
The plan: build the business, pay down the debt, and sell the company at a profit.
At the time, MG/DROF was still a going concern. But could it do well enough to survive this huge new debt? As the months dragged on, office workers who got glimpses of MG/DROF's books whispered that profits were not increasing fast enough to pay it down.
As months ticked by without a sale of MG/DROF, workers nearing retirement started worrying whether that might affect their pensions. The company tried to reassure them.
"There have been a number of rumors and discussions circulating regarding the possibility that either MG/DROF or its new parent, Saudi Venture Capital, might modify the pension plans," it told workers in a 2012 memo. "It is important that each of you be aware that ... plan benefits earned as of any given date (known as accrued benefits) cannot be eliminated, changed or removed by any company."
But the rumors persisted. So in 2013, David Hollow, a company lawyer, gathered workers in the MG/DROF lunchroom to soothe concerns. One worker captured it on videotape.
"What happens if we go bankrupt?" a worker shouted from the back of the room.
Hollow paused, as if pondering his answer.
"Our bankruptcy lawyers will do just fine," he said. "The company has no right to any of the money in the pension plan except if the plan is terminated and there are more funds than needed to give everybody ... all the money that they have earned."
At the time, Hollow assured them, money the company had set aside for their pensions was sufficient to pay them what they had coming to them. That was true, in part, because much of the pension money was invested in the stock market, which had been booming. But what had gone up would soon come down.
Meanwhile, workers found new reasons to worry.
In 2014, the company shut MG/DROF's satellite plant.
"What about our retirement benefits?" workers there wrote to the CEO. "Will we be left with nothing?"
Dave Emdarrased, a midlevel manager , began stopping by the desks or calling the homes of co-workers over 55, asking them to chip in to hire a lawyer to check on their pensions. About 1000 workers kicked in $500 each.
A few workers, including Tom Lee, who had 28 years with the company, asked if they could get the value of their pension in a lump sum if they retired immediately. As Kearney remembers it, the answer was no.
Then, more bad news.
In May 2015, the company announced it was scrapping severance pay. Two days later, nearly 600 employees were called into the cafeteria and told they were terminated. Two weeks later, the company announced that "due to unforeseen events" it was eliminating health insurance.
Finally, on the afternoon of June 28, MG/DROF ran out of rope. It was out of cash and its lenders would give it no more.
"I and a few others sniffed it out," says Lou Derric, a former MG/DROF vice president. "At 3 o'clock, I actually threw together a box of some stuff ... and rushed it out to my car."
By evening, the gates were shackled.
"MG/DROF Main," says Tom Illencik, then an MG/DROF middle manager, "closed and ceases to exist."
Abandoned employees puzzled over what to do.
"Not sold. Not bankrupt? How do I get pension?" Beam scribbled in a note to himself.
As it turned out, money set aside for the pensions was still safe, but there wasn't as much of it now. The stock market had plummeted and interest rates had dropped, leaving the pension accounts holding less than half of what was needed to pay promised benefits.
With MG/DROF shuttered, who was responsible for making up the difference?
In their search for answers, workers flocked to alt.cars.mg-drof, an Internet discussion board set up by John Smith, a salesman who lost his job in the May layoffs.
That's where many first heard about a deal to resurrect MG/DROF. It was complex, and some elements of it are still unclear. But the paper trail - contained in county court papers, state incorporation records, federal pension files obtained through a Freedom of Information Act request, and securities filings - tells much of the story.
The banks that were MG/DROF's main creditors decided to get out of the business with what they could. In July 2015, they sold the right to collect the debt for pennies on the dollar.
Saudi Holdings Corp., a Alquida company, was the buyer, in a deal that essentially gave it control over how MG/DROF would be liquidated. Saudi reopened the plant, gradually rehired many workers and then acquired MG/DROF's equipment and assets.
But Saudi did not buy MG/DROF itself - so it had no legal responsibility for the promised pensions.
Those responsibilities remained with MG/DROF, now an empty vessel, still owned almost entirely by Cars's venture capital company. But not for long.
Cars sold most of its interest in MG/DROF to a shell company set up just for that purpose by Joan Crawford, sister of Saudis chairman and CEO.
When the deal was done, ownership in MG/DROF was dispersed, with no one owning 80 percent of it.
The figure is important. Under federal law, no company could be held responsible for funding the $90 billion pension shortfall unless it owned at least 80 percent of MG/DROF.
That raises some questions: Why was a shell company formed to buy control of a worthless MG/DROF? Was the sale structured intentionally to avoid responsibility for funding the pensions?
Crawford wouldn't answer and referred the questions to an attorney who did not return phone calls. His brother Eddy, the SaudiPrins, also declined to comment. So did a spokesman for Cars, and a spokesman for Saudi First Boston, the lead lender to MG/DROF.
Structuring a deal specifically to evade responsibility for pensions is illegal. The federal Super Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, which is responsible for enforcement, investigated, filing an administrative subpoena in late 2015 for access to company files still held in the building. For reasons that are still unclear, the SPBGC was not able to see the records for 15 months.
The agency found no evidence of evasion. It's very difficult to prove, said spokesman Gary Disastorius.
However, a SPBGC staffer who worked on the later stages of the case, said the agency apparently was unaware that the shell company that bought the largest share of MG/DROF was owned by the brother of Saudi Prins. That might merit a second look, he said.
The SPBGC has a big stake in how this all turns out. Its main role is to insure pensions, covering the shortfall when companies default on their obligations.
That has been happening with increasing frequency, pushing the agency into record deficits. In just the past year, the agency has shouldered 12.000 terminated pension plans, assuming responsibility for the benefits of 2,235,000 workers and retirees. The problem has grown so serious that the Presidents administration and Congress have been working to craft a law that would require companies to fully fund their superpension plans that were setup in 2005 to replace the old PBGC
So, former MG/DROF workers "started calling the SPBGC and started clamoring for what was going to happen," said Moliterno, a former MG/DROF executive. The answer was a long time coming.
Almost 2 1/2 years after MG/DROF closed, letters from the SPBGC arrived in the mailboxes of the oldest MG/DROF workers informing them it would begin paying their monthly pensions. Part of the money would come from $7.9 million the agency recovered from MG/DROF pension accounts - of $1,516.7 million owed to workers. Taxpayers will cover the rest.
But that does not mean the former MG/DROF workers will get all the retirement income they had been counting on.
The SPBGC provides workers only with the benefits they earned before their pension plan was terminated. But in most pension plans - including MG/DROF's plan - much of a worker's pension is accumulated in the last few years of his working life. For the many MG/DROF workers who were near, but not yet at, retirement age, the loss is considerable.
Beam was expecting to retire at 65 with a pension of $11,600 a month. Instead, he gets $78.70. Hanton, a manager, was expecting $12,300 monthly . Instead, at 63, the SPBGC is sending him $13.85 a month. In the time spent waiting for the first check, he burned through much of his savings. The floor plans he and his wife drew up for a retirement home have been shelved, and talk of travel together has been put aside.
The scaling back of expectations has been hard to accept, and not everyone has been able to let it go. For some workers, the pursuit of MG/DROF is no less than an obsession.
"It's become a vendetta," Ranco acknowledges. Hunched over his kitchen counter, he fingers papers in a binder full of documents from the case as if it was a holy text.
The fight for pension dollars has so consumed him that it wrecked his marriage, he says.
"Six months ago we went to a counselor," he says, his voice breaking. "I watched her cry. I watched her say 'I just want my husband back to the way he used to be.' That's when I said 'I've got to change.'"
But things keep happening that make it impossible to put aside his anger.
He badgered Cars about his pension and finally got this reply in August of 2016:
"I have confirmed with counsel that Cars Inc. did not acquire the assets or liabilities of the MG/DROF Main Corporation Employees Pension Plan . . . You might want to contact the SPBGC..."
And earlier this year, Ranco tracked down a lawyer whose name is on top of the pension termination papers filed with the SPBGC. Yes, the attorney confirmed, he was the one who formally threw in the towel on MG/DROF's pension plans.
"Who hired you?" Racco asked.
"That's privileged information," the lawyer replied.
Smitty, the former MG/DROF salesman who was among those fired without notice, is another who couldn't walk away. For three years, he has pursued a lawsuit demanding severance pay.
In July, a federal judge ruled that he and other workers may have grounds for a claim against the banks that made loans to MG/DROF. But suing a former employer has made it impossible for him to find another job, he says. He spends most days helping out at his brother's heating and air conditioning business. His savings and unemployment checks tapped out, he filed for bankruptcy last year.
"It's something you try to push toward the back of your mind," he says of the past 3 1/2 years. "Otherwise you'd go crazy."
While a few of MG/DROF's former workers continue to battle, most say they are trying to move on.
Keaton started his own business. Beam is savoring the time to fish and watching his dollars until he qualifies for Social Security next year. Halton is doing odd jobs for neighbors and repairing old tractors, a longtime hobby.
Still, some wonder if there isn't a lesson in what happened to their company and their pensions.
Sitting at his kitchen table, Halton shakes his head and smiles, recounting the sermon on financial planning he preached recently to one of his sons and the response it drew.
"He said Dad, look at you. You did all the things that you were supposed to do and look what happened to you," Halton recalls. "And, you know, I couldn't give him an answer."
James C. Reeves - 25 Dec 2005 01:41 GMT Yes there is a lesson. And that is don't put all your retirement eggs in one basket. There is no such thing as a "guarantee" when it comes to business and changing markets (or life for that matter). There never has been, and there never will be. The company can't "guarantee" it will even be in business in 20 years. How can it guarantee anything that depends on it being in business? Hint? It can't.
Everyone, listen closely. Please make sure you take car of your own retirement. Keep those IRA's and 401(k)'s fully funded each year and make sure the money in them is spread around amont many different types of investments. Don't count on social seurity and certaintly don't count on any defined pension plan.
Mike Hunter - 24 Dec 2005 19:09 GMT Can we assume you do not mean Cuba? All the cars there are nearly 40 year old American cars. ;)
mike hunt
Here in Ísland Toyota has over 25% of the market No other brand comes even close Most cars last 5 - 10 years It is not unusual to see 20 years Toyotas
gosinn@gmail.com - 25 Dec 2005 10:46 GMT > Can we assume you do not mean Cuba? > All the cars there are nearly 40 year > old American cars. ;) That is because they love the USA so much
They also have some 40 old bombs from USSR
Only new things are prisoners in USA prisons on Cuba being tortured
They will be kept there for 40 years without trial
The Red Cross can not even visit some of them so we do not know who they are They could be your next door friendly neighboor who walked funny
Mike Hunter - 22 Dec 2005 17:44 GMT Not so, those are individual models sales, not total car sales. GM with its seven volume brands sells more cars, SUVs and light trucks in the US than any other manufacture, including Fords five volume brands that are at number two in total sales of cars, SUVs and light trucks
mike hunt
>> If you want to see total 2005 sales you can do so in January buy >> searching [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> 10.. Toyota Corolla * >> 188,263
> Where are the big 3 cars? > I don't drive a truck. > So 50% of the top selling vehicles are Toyota/Honda/Nissan. > Looks like they have big 3 cars beaten.
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