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Car Forum / GMC Cars / January 2006Bought a Toyota today.
We looked seriously at GMs, but ended up buying a Sienna. Same price or less than a GM minivan, even with the GMS employee price. Side airbags standard all around, not on GM. 6 year powertrain warranty, not GM. High resale value, not GM. It is assembled in Indiana with 85% American componets and 10% Japanese. How about GM, Chinese built 3.5 V-6 engines ? I am in full agreement that there is a quality perception issue with GM. There new products are almost at Japanese levels. Maybe next car. > Well folks, thanks for the lively conversation. > > We bought a Sienna. Same price or less than a GM minivan. We all make mistakes Howard. No need to apologize. We assumed you'd decide to take the cheap route. You made it clear that looks and style weren't important to you. That's when it became clear that you'd opt for the Sienna. Ugh! > Side airbags I've posted a link to some interesting feedback about those side airbags you boast about. I hope you're sitting when you read it! > standard all around, not on GM. 6 year powertrain warranty, not GM. Ummm, Howard, there's a reason for the need for that 6 year warranty. Didn't anyone tell you about that? > High > resale value, not GM. In Japan perhaps. Not here though. Buying a Sienna is a bit like buying a Lada in the old days. > I am in full agreement that there is a quality > perception issue with GM. There new products are up to par. It is assembled > in Indiana with 85% American componets and 10% Japanese. How about GM, > Chinese 3.5 V-6 engines ? Howard, they're waiting for you over at alt.autos.toyota. You can look forward to many years of posting with them, trying to find solutions to all your problems. Good Luck and enjoy the Sienna experience! To get you prepared for your adventures, I'll post a few informative links to owner feedback: Here's a link to an ongoing report from a Sienna owner: http://philip.greenspun.com/materialism/cars/sienna Here's another interesting site Howard: http://www.carsurvey.org/viewcomments_review_52713.html And another: http://www.mycarsucks.com/rants/toyota/2004_toyota_sienna.htm And some interesting owner reviews: http://www.carreview.com/cat/automobiles/minivans/toyota/PRD_212_1530crx.aspx And everyone's favorite "EdmundsdotCom" : http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef15db9/1624 Yep, you got what you paid for Howard. Enjoy your new friends over at the Toyota forum. They're going to be hearing lots from you. ;-) > I am in full agreement that there is a quality > perception issue with GM. There new products are > almost at Japanese levels. > Maybe next car. Howard, you've proven out that old adage yet again: "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem." Enjoy your new "quality" Sienna. Heh, Heh! > > Well folks, thanks for the lively conversation. > > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > And some interesting owner reviews: http://www.carreview.com/cat/automobiles/minivans/toyota/PRD_212_1530crx.aspx > And everyone's favorite "EdmundsdotCom" : > http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.ef15db9/1624 you should not have burst his bubble so quick.... a.k. Thats one UGLY spaceship! >> Well folks, thanks for the lively conversation. >> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > of the solution, you're part of the problem." Enjoy your new "quality" > Sienna. Heh, Heh! The service record of the two GMC Jimmy's I have are making me think for the first time in my life of going non GM >> Well folks, thanks for the lively conversation. >> [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > of the solution, you're part of the problem." Enjoy your new "quality" > Sienna. Heh, Heh! you have problems with your jimmys too? > The service record of the two GMC Jimmy's I have are making me think for > the first time in my life of going non GM [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] >> of the solution, you're part of the problem." Enjoy your new "quality" >> Sienna. Heh, Heh! Many and most are electrical. But includes transmission, wheel bearing hubs, alternator, (red) cooling system, window motors, wiper motors front and rear, air conditioner pumps on both, recliner seat lever on passenger side, trim on both seats, wiper switch, head light switch, ignition switch.............. > you have problems with your jimmys too? > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] >>> of the solution, you're part of the problem." Enjoy your new "quality" >>> Sienna. Heh, Heh! > > Well folks, thanks for the lively conversation. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > weren't important to you. That's when it became clear that you'd opt > for the Sienna. Ugh! Well I think he said it was for his wife so she probably would have been happy with a card board box with wheels. Howard, Would love to hear from you when you Sienna's odometer reaches 100,000 - 200,000 and 300,000 miles. You've got to maintian ! Good Luck Harryface 05 Park Avenue, 33,138 91 Bonneville LE 305,222 > Howard, > > Would love to hear from you when you Sienna's odometer reaches 100,000 - > 200,000 and 300,000 miles. > > You've got to maintian ! You have to maintain all of them nowadays. I took a look at the Sienna to see what Cool Jet and others object to about the looks. Admittedly, it looks like a sardine can with wheels, but ...to me...all the SUV's look like crap. yeah, that will be his loss when he has to drive 50 miles for a dealer and pay OUTRAGEOUS to ship parts from Japan. Just cause their built in Indiana dont mean we have all the parts for them > Howard, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 05 Park Avenue, 33,138 > 91 Bonneville LE 305,222 The vehicle that Toyota assembles in Indiana use less than 40% American made parts. The first number of the VIN is a '5.' mike hunt > yeah, that will be his loss when he has to drive 50 miles for a dealer and > pay OUTRAGEOUS to ship parts from Japan. Just cause their built in [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> 05 Park Avenue, 33,138 >> 91 Bonneville LE 305,222 The only american made parts are probally the antenna and maybe wheels.... Sucks to be them when it does come time for service, I'd still rather have a GM > The vehicle that Toyota assembles in Indiana use less than 40% American > made parts. The first number of the VIN is a '5.' [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >>> 05 Park Avenue, 33,138 >>> 91 Bonneville LE 305,222 Less than 40% could mean 0%, as well LOL mike hunt > The only american made parts are probally the antenna and maybe wheels.... > Sucks to be them when it does come time for service, I'd still rather have [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >>>> 05 Park Avenue, 33,138 >>>> 91 Bonneville LE 305,222 Actually, it is 85% American content. You guys can debate exactly what that means. A minivan is all about utility, not style. I have a family. > Less than 40% could mean 0%, as well LOL > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >>>> 05 Park Avenue, 33,138 > >>>> 91 Bonneville LE 305,222 > Actually, it is 85% American content. You guys can debate exactly what that > means. If GM management think like many here, GM IS DEAD! > A minivan is all about utility, not style. I have a family. We are all quite impressed that anyone so close to the drain of the gene pool has a family! Do you know who the father is Howard? <lol> Jetski, I am proud of my gene pool. There are some rather high achievers in mine. > > A minivan is all about utility, not style. I have a family. > > We are all quite impressed that anyone so close to the drain of the > gene pool has a family! Do you know who the father is Howard? <lol> My gene pool is better quality than your gene pool. That is why I can think for myself and buy what I need without ... this sh.t. > > A minivan is all about utility, not style. I have a family. > > We are all quite impressed that anyone so close to the drain of the > gene pool has a family! Do you know who the father is Howard? <lol> > My gene pool is better quality than your gene pool. That is why I can think > for myself and buy what I need without ... this sh.t. Howard, that was an old, old post (January 6th) from our feuding days, that you already responded to on January 7th at 6:01PM. At that time, you responded: "Jetski, I am proud of my gene pool. There are some rather high achievers in mine." Since that time, we have stopped the bickering and are seemingly getting along okay. So quit reading those old flames and be nice to me! *LOL* Hey Jetty, sometimes you are nice to me. Read on what you wrote ... " Howard Cohen wrote: > Thanx man, you are OK. I do have a neighbor who occaisionally drives her > original owner 64 Valiant. She also is the original owner of her 1957 > Vintage Arlington, VA ranch house. > > Toyota has had some issues, but far less than GM & Ford. IMHO, only Honda is > better. I do remember the original Accords burning oil. Hi Howard! Wow, that neighbor of yours clings to the past worse than I do! Although, I have owned a '63 Sting Ray for almost 20 years. That's not to say that '63 was the last year was the last time GM built good looking product. *lol* My '63 is almost as high maintenance as my sister-in-law. <looks over shoulder to make sure wife didn't see that comment> Honda has come a long way. I'll never forget the early Civic that my sister-in-law bought with the infamous "Hondamatic" transmission. I can't remember whether the first rust appeared before or after the transmission had to be rebuilt within the first year of ownership. Because of that early experience, she hasn't bought a Honda since. Too bad really, because I suspect she'd like them better than the VW Jetta that she now drives. It has been a nightmare for her. But there are lemons manufactured by every car company. We all just hope we get one of the good ones! > > A minivan is all about utility, not style. I have a family. > > We are all quite impressed that anyone so close to the drain of the > gene pool has a family! Do you know who the father is Howard? <lol> >> Thanx man, you are OK. I do have a neighbor who occaisionally drives >> her original owner 64 Valiant. She also is the original owner of her >> 1957 Vintage Arlington, VA ranch house. Gotta love a '64 Valiant. 225 cubic inch slant 6. No computers, no fuel injection system, no ECM, no complicated smog/emissions junk. Just a cap/rotor/coil/plugs/carb. Could convert it to electronic ignition and get rid of the points. My dad bought me a rust free egg shell blue '65 Dart 170 wagon that's waiting for me down at his land in Arizona. We'll rebuild the engine. Also, what's all the minivan bashing about? I love my minivan. I can carry plywood, materials, tools, ladder on the roof rack. It looks better than an ugly SUV, gets better gas mileage, holds more people/cargo, more versatile, domestic minivans have available AWD, and is cheaper to buy. By the way, Ford is going to stop making the Freestar soon. What a shame. It looks a lot better than the GM and Dodge ninivans. Instead, Ford is going to start making a tall station wagon type vehicle. Man it's weird. In the mid '80's, the automakers were falling over themselves to stop station wagon production to instead make more popular minivans, now the trend has reversed. It's all fads. Back in the '70's when I was growing up, my family had a '72 Plymouth Fury 9 passenger 'Brady Bunch special' wagon with a 318ci that was bought brand new. 10 years later, my mom (divorced from dad) gets it towed because it was parked on the street, and she never bothered to get it out of towing/storage because it ran like crap due to needing a carb rebuild. In the early 80's, a '72 Fury wagon was just a huge car no one wanted. Now, on ebay, they go for big bucks. Trends and fads. > Hey Jetty, sometimes you are nice to me. Read on what you wrote ... > snip Howard, you're scaring me! *LOL* I'm always nice to you now. I haven't uttered a nasty comment in quite some time. In fact, I stopped flaming you when I wrote a message on January 13th. That other message that you responded to yesterday was an older message from January 5th, that you had already responded to on the 7th. I decided that life is too short to spend a lot of time arguing with someone who doesn't share my opinion on the quality of any given vehicle. Besides, you mentioned that you bought your Sienna because you thought it was the best vehicle to transport your young family around and I happen to think it's commendable for anyone to purchase a vehicle with the best interests of their family in mind. That's why I commented that I really hope that your Sienna gives you and your family years of enjoyment and dependable service. So quit reading those old messages!!! *LOL* > yeah, that will be his loss when he has to drive 50 miles for a dealer and > pay OUTRAGEOUS to ship parts from Japan. Just cause their built in Indiana > dont mean we have all the parts for them You're living in the past. Learn a little and bury a bit of your out of date mental blocks. It will be maintained well, just like the late Taurus. My private friend /mechanic works for GM as a regional warranty rep. He says that Toyotas are very good cars. He was very surprised and concerned that I was able to beat the GM employee price with a comparably equiped Sienna. He also says that GM has improved their quality much in the last 10 years. When I entered the car buying age 25 years ago GM , Ford & Chrysler were pretty crummy crap. Tell Mr. CoolJet that I did not even bother with his links. One can google any postitive and negative information on just about anything. I know plenty of people with mega miles on Yotas. By the way CoolJet, google my name. Perhaps you will learn something. Harry, It will take about 9 years for me to get 100K miles so hang on to your e-mail. Steve, a.k.a. Howard on the net > Howard, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > 05 Park Avenue, 33,138 > 91 Bonneville LE 305,222 > It will be maintained well, just like the late Taurus. My private friend > /mechanic works for GM as a regional warranty rep. That's very interesting Howard, since GM's warrantees for all divisions are handled by outsourced agencies! Well, you entered the group under false pretenses and you're leaving with a lie. It's poetic really. ;-) > He says that Toyotas are > very good cars. I'm sure he did Howard. <nudge, nudge, wink, wink> Your close friend from GM's warranty group. Riiiiight! ;-) > Tell Mr. CoolJet that I did not even bother with his links. Of course you didn't Howard. Riiiight! ;-) No one likes reading how bad a product is that they recently bought. Howard, it's better that you not know the truth. Really. ;-) > One can google > any postitive and negative information on just about anything. I know plenty > of people with mega miles on Yotas. Too bad you didn't Google before buying one of those ugly, unreliable little Siennas. You could have saved ourself a world of grief. > By the way CoolJet, google my name. > Perhaps you will learn something. Why would I want to do that Howard? I have comfort enough in knowing that I have somehow made a small difference in your life. I am overwhelmed that you have spent so much of your last day in this News Group talking to me. You may want to Google my name (Cool Jet) as well. Perhaps you will learn something. Perhaps not. ;-) > Harry, It will take about 9 years for me to get 100K miles so hang on to > your e-mail. Howard, that Sienna may not make 10,000 miles! Remember Howard: alt.autos.Toyota No I did not say that. He is a Chevy dealer regional dealer rep. He handles all of the Chevy warranty issues at dealers in this region. Prior to that he worked as an engineer for Saturn. Do you do endless Googles looking for faults with your purchases? My Father was an Engineer, who would not even consider a foreign car. He did say that he admired thge engineering of Hondas when I showed him my new Acura Integra. It is amazing the number of people that I know that recently switched from American cars to foriegn. On my street alone 5 households bought new cars and they were all US traded for Yotas & Hondas. The WWII / Korean War generation that kept the big three going is no longer a buying force. > > It will be maintained well, just like the late Taurus. My private friend > > /mechanic works for GM as a regional warranty rep. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > Howard, that Sienna may not make 10,000 miles! Remember Howard: > alt.autos.Toyota > No I did not say that. He is a Chevy dealer regional dealer rep. He handles > all of the Chevy warranty issues at dealers in this region. Prior to that he > worked as an engineer for Saturn. Howard, a buddy of mine is a District Service Manager with GM and he handles warranty disputes that can't be resolved by the dealerships with their clients. It sounds like your buddy has a similar type position. > Do you do endless Googles looking for faults with your purchases? I actually do conduct a lot of Google enquiries before making any significant purchases. Recent examples are my wife's new Pontiac G6, my recent order for Vinylbilt California shutters and the new Lauzon hardwood floors (Yellow birch with truffle stain) I just ordered. In the case of all three of these items, I visited the respective manufacturers' web sites to learn as much as I could there. Then I searched for testimonials for all three, good and bad. Then I took a first-hand look at all three and tried out the G6. Then I bought with a bit more confidence in the products than I would have had buying blind. > My Father was an Engineer, who would not even consider a foreign car. He did > say that he admired thge engineering of Hondas when I showed him my new > Acura Integra. It is amazing the number of people that I know that recently > switched from American cars to foriegn. On my street alone 5 households > bought new cars and they were all US traded for Yotas & Hondas. The Integra happens to be a favorite of mine too and I have always admired its style and performance. As for Hondas, my brother is on his second new Civic and he loves them. My neighborhood is a bit different than yours, in that I still see a majority of GM, Chrysler & Ford vehicles being purchased. Having said that, I see a lot of the young market buying new and used Hondas, Cobalts, Acuras and Neons and doing their version of hotrodding them. In some cases, that's no more than putting a fat pipe on the exhaust tip. *LOL* Others have created genuine amazing street machines out of their rides. > The WWII / > Korean War generation that kept the big three going is no longer a buying > force. Howard, I'm a boomer from the early 50's and you can probably lump me in with the above, except I know what I like and dislike. I continue to resist buying anything other than a vehicle produced by the big three, but I do like a lot of euros and Japanese cars as well as one Korean car - Hyundai Tiburon. But I don't condemn anyone for buying what they like. I just happen to be strongly committed to buying Big Three stuff, which can be difficult during times like right now when only a very few of their products appeal to me. Howard, I didn't purposely set out to offend you with my comments about the Sienna. I just happen to think it is an ugly and bland vehicle and anything I have read about its quality hasn't been good. I was trying to give honest feedback before the conversation degenerated into a p'ing match. In fact, I hope that your Sienna gives you and your young family years of reliable service and lots of great family memories. That's what life is all about. Raising a family is tough enough on its own, without having car problems. Have a great weekend with the family! Thanx man, you are OK. I do have a neighbor who occaisionally drives her original owner 64 Valiant. She also is the original owner of her 1957 Vintage Arlington, VA ranch house. Toyota has had some issues, but far less than GM & Ford. IMHO, only Honda is better. I do remember the original Accords burning oil. > > No I did not say that. He is a Chevy dealer regional dealer rep. He handles > > all of the Chevy warranty issues at dealers in this region. Prior to that he [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > family is tough enough on its own, without having car problems. Have a > great weekend with the family! > Thanx man, you are OK. I do have a neighbor who occaisionally drives her > original owner 64 Valiant. She also is the original owner of her 1957 > Vintage Arlington, VA ranch house. > > Toyota has had some issues, but far less than GM & Ford. IMHO, only Honda is > better. I do remember the original Accords burning oil. Hi Howard! Wow, that neighbor of yours clings to the past worse than I do! Although, I have owned a '63 Sting Ray for almost 20 years. That's not to say that '63 was the last year was the last time GM built good looking product. *lol* My '63 is almost as high maintenance as my sister-in-law. <looks over shoulder to make sure wife didn't see that comment> Honda has come a long way. I'll never forget the early Civic that my sister-in-law bought with the infamous "Hondamatic" transmission. I can't remember whether the first rust appeared before or after the transmission had to be rebuilt within the first year of ownership. Because of that early experience, she hasn't bought a Honda since. Too bad really, because I suspect she'd like them better than the VW Jetta that she now drives. It has been a nightmare for her. But there are lemons manufactured by every car company. We all just hope we get one of the good ones! > Would love to hear from you when you Sienna's odometer reaches 100,000 - > 200,000 and 300,000 miles. I'm sure it will be alive and kicking for a long time. a.s....... > We looked seriously at GMs, but ended up buying a Sienna. Same price or less > than a GM minivan, even with the GMS employee price. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > perception issue with GM. There new products are almost at Japanese levels. > Maybe next car. What is the first digit of the VIN on your Sienna, I have never seen a Sienna with a '1' only a '5' mike hunt > a.s....... > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> levels. >> Maybe next car. > What is the first digit of the VIN on your Sienna, I have never seen a > Sienna with a '1' only a '5' > > mike hunt I think you information may be out of date, according to this reference ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_identification_number ), first digits 1, 4 and 5 all mean US assembly site with no conditioning on % US content. Here is the NHTSA government site which details the VIN labeling requirements. I find no mention in there of content percentages: http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_04/49cfr565_04.html Can you reference a document which backs the assertion that only VIN numbers starting with 1 or 4 are majority US content vehicles? My reading of the requirements leads me to believe that any US assembled GM product will have a VIN number starting with 1G no matter what fraction of the content is US sourced. It seems that the VIN # does not indicate the % US content and that content information is separately printed on the window stickers. John > My reading of the requirements leads me to believe that any US assembled > GM product will have a VIN number starting with 1G no matter what > fraction of the content is US sourced. Even those Korean cars GM is selling as cars. > It seems that the VIN # does not indicate the % US content and that > content information is separately printed on the window stickers. I believe your right. I was told by a Toyota dealer recently that a "J" at the front of the VIN number indicates Japanese assembly. Cars they had here in Vancouver, Canada that were made in Japan were the Yaris and Prius. Both Toyota and Honda export at least one model to Japan. No so, if the content is less than 70% but more than 40% it will show a '4,' as is the case with Subaru assembled in the US. If the content is less than 40% it will show a '5.' The Camrys and Tundra's assembled in the US today show a '5.' It was Honda, who actually assembles many of its vehicles in the US with American parts, that filed a complaint with the FTC about Toyota claim that their vehicles were made in America. If you look and listen closely you will see Toyota is now saying assembled in the US of world sourced parts. Vehicles made in Korea, like the Hyundai, Kia and Suzuki have a 'K' mike hunt >> My reading of the requirements leads me to believe that any US assembled >> GM product will have a VIN number starting with 1G no matter what [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Both Toyota and Honda export at least one model to Japan. > If the content is less than 40% it will show a '5.' The Camrys and Tundra's > assembled in the US today show a '5.' It was Honda, who actually assembles [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > in the US of world sourced parts. Vehicles made in Korea, like the Hyundai, > Kia and Suzuki have a 'K' If that "5" indicates less than USA content, that doesn't mean the parts are from Japan. Remember that the USA is in NAFTA with Canada and Mexico. Parts and cars flow freely between these three countries. So even with a "5" most parts could be from within NAFTA. Chrysler has been doing a significant part of their 2.7L V6 in Mexico, from day one for that engine back in about 1998. Not so, I'll try just once more to help you to understand. If the parts were north American (NAFTA) parts and the content was more than 70% the vehicle would be a '1' if between 40% and 70% it would have a '4.' Current Camrys and Tundras have a '5' because the content is less than 40% north American parts. The fact is even the Toyotas assembled in Japan, with a 'J' have a majority of parts from other lower wage countries. mike hunt "Spam Hater" <iHate@spam.net> wrote in message > "Mike Hunter" <mikehunt2@mailcity.com> wrote: >> If the content is less than 40% it will show a '5.' The Camrys and >> Tundra's [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> Hyundai, >> Kia and Suzuki have a 'K' > If that "5" indicates less than USA content, that doesn't mean the parts > are from Japan. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Chrysler has been doing a significant part of their 2.7L V6 in Mexico, > from day one for that engine back in about 1998. > Not so, I'll try just once more to help you to understand. If the parts > were north American (NAFTA) parts and the content was more than 70% the > vehicle would be a '1' if between 40% and 70% it would have a '4.' > Current Camrys and Tundras have a '5' because the content is less than 40% > north American parts. The fact is even the Toyotas assembled in Japan, with > a 'J' have a majority of parts from other lower wage countries. First you said USA parts, now you say NA (NAFTA) parts. Correction; NAFTA is USA, Canada, and also Mexico. Geography! Lets get it right the first time. To make it clear the federal regulation requires NORTH American made parts to earn a '1.' as apposed to imported parts that require a '4' or '5.' if less than 70% mike hunt >> Not so, I'll try just once more to help you to understand. If the parts >> were north American (NAFTA) parts and the content was more than 70% the [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Correction; NAFTA is USA, Canada, and also Mexico. Geography! > Lets get it right the first time. Actually Honda is very smart. The auto ferries from Japan bring Acura's and they return with Honda's built here. Most of the other Japan mfrs send the ships back empty. You still gotta pay for the crew and fuel.... > Most of the other Japan mfrs > send the ships back empty. You still gotta pay for the crew and fuel.... Nope, there is usually other cargo to go the other way. USA subsided rice? Goodbye. > We looked seriously at GMs, but ended up buying a Sienna. Same price or > less [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > levels. > Maybe next car. > We looked seriously at GMs, but ended up buying a Sienna. Same > price or less [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Japanese levels. > Maybe next car. Well... I am happy for you. I guess the thing is that I am going to follow you as well in the near future and get a Sienna, not for the looks nor the style, but the reliability and security. Plain and simple. Only fools buy cars for their looks and style. You see, I am the typical "joe-off-the-street" guy that GM wants desparately to have/keep as customer with their employee discount, whatnot promos and promisses. I am not a GM-fanboy like most posters here who seem to be blind to everything that is not GM: they live and die for GM. I am a simple guy, father of 4, a single income family who likes cars and vans. I need a family van. I need sometime reliable, because I cannot afford to be at the dealership every month and spend 4K a year in maintenance and repairs. This is why I am considering a Sienna or an Odyssey. These are not much more expensive than a Venture. And there is, in my mind anyway, the perception (backed up by anecdotal evidence from friends and family who have these vans) that they do not break as much. Because they are more reliable, cost of repair is less of a worry for me (I did call dealers and found out that most major Toy and Honda parts cost the same or 5% more than GM and Ford, so I am not worried about that either). Right now, I drive a 2000 Venture with more problems than I have the time to write about here. They all started 3000Km after my warranty expired (yes, 3000 KM!) and GM did not want to help me. I tried everything to convince them that it was not normal that a van maintained at the dealership for 4 years would break down so fast, so much. Have I writen off GM altogether? No. But now I do not trust their products anymore, nor their aftersale customer service. I need peace of mind for myself and my familly and the only way I would consider a GM again is if they would have a longer, better warranty. Some time ago a poster suggested that GM should implement a 10-year warranty. Not a bad idea. I might go again with GM if their warranty was longer (say 7 or 8 years). Come on, GM, if you make great and reliable products, back them up! There is a perception that you build crappy cars and vans. You need to change this and the only way to do so is to put your money where you mouth is. If not, you will lose another customer. And another, and another, and so on... Cheers If a warranty is what is important to you, consider this idea. Buy the GM vehicle that suits your needs. You can purchase a 100,000 mile extended service plan, even one that included all scheduled maintenance for far lower drive home price than many of GMs competitors and still have money left over to buy your fuel for a year or so. ;) mike hunt > Have I writen off GM altogether? No. But now I do not trust their products > anymore, nor their aftersale customer service. I need peace of mind for [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Cheers > If a warranty is what is important to you, consider this idea. Buy the GM > vehicle that suits your needs. You can purchase a 100,000 mile extended [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > mike hunt A 100K warranty isnt worth a damn unless the garages accept it, and can fix the problem, and your time isnt worth a crap. Not too worry. GMs extended warranty is excepted by all GM dealers. ;) mike hunt >> If a warranty is what is important to you, consider this idea. Buy the >> GM [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the problem, > and your time isnt worth a crap. I would not consider a car, or mini-van, if I needed to purchase an extended warranty because of reliability issues. Exactly what will be covered ? When and where will it break down ? GM has to do some serious house cleaning. First, big paycuts for anyone who wears a suit and has executive in their title. Pay them $50,000/yr plus bonuses for profitability and market share. Except for Bob Lutz. > Not too worry. GMs extended warranty is excepted by all GM dealers. ;) > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > the problem, > > and your time isnt worth a crap. We looked hard at the GM minivans. Even with an "employee discount" and 0.0% financing they were not competitive. Sorry GM. > > We looked seriously at GMs, but ended up buying a Sienna. Same > > price or less [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] > > Cheers > We looked hard at the GM minivans. Even with an "employee discount" and > 0.0% > financing they were not competitive. Sorry GM. 0.0% can be a scam! Dealers don't always tell you, but you can often get a better price by paying "cash" and financing elsewhere. Depends on the model. My venture had a $6300Cdn discount for paying cash. So I borrowed from a bank (also arranged by the dealer; don't have the interest rate in front of me) and saved vs the 0.0% GMAC price. I've been educating as many of the people I know as I can to inquire about the cash price. For some higher-end models or hot ones that don't have a large cash discount, it is better to go with GMAC, but sometimes you can save money. Jane >> > We looked seriously at GMs, but ended up buying a Sienna. Same >> > price or less [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >> >> Cheers I had the option with Saturn of $3500 or 0.0% off of a 2005 LEFTOVER The 06 had 3.9% with no rebate. I always look at the bottom line. Much the same would go with an inflated trade-in offer. It all comes down to the bottom line. TOP, total cost of purchase. > > We looked hard at the GM minivans. Even with an "employee discount" and > > 0.0% [quoted text clipped - 75 lines] > >> > >> Cheers > I've been educating as many of the people I know as I can to inquire about > the cash price. For some higher-end models or hot ones that don't have a > large cash discount, it is better to go with GMAC, but sometimes you can > save money. GMAC is keeping GM in business today. It's the part of GM making the money, to cover the losses on car production. >> I've been educating as many of the people I know as I can to inquire >> about [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It's the part of GM making the money, to cover the losses on car > production. I'm aware of that. As I said, the cash price is only cheaper than 0.0% financing for certain models at certain times. Jane Methinks you are confusing the 'selling price' with the TOTAL COST and the method of payment. The selling price is only a part of the total cost of a vehicle. There has not been a 'discount for cash,' since the thirties when dealers accepted time payments to sell cars. The total 'drive home' price of any vehicle depends on the selling price, which includes any rebates and or discounts off MSRP, the value amount of the trade if any, as well as the profit on dealer installed options, 'fees' a dealer charges, the actual government taxes and fees, and the cost of financing the necessary funds to complete the purchase. The price at which a dealer is willing to sell you the vehicles over and above his NET invoice price has no effect on how you pay for that vehicle. You can get the money from a relative, write a check or finance the amount due from any source you choose. The dealership earns extra profit if you finance through GMAC, a bank or a finance company. At a given interest rate the dealer will receive a percentage of the interest, generally around 1%. At zero interest GM still offers the dealer a finder fee of a few hundred dollars. There is no way you can finance THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY for less anywhere else, when compared to zero interest. mike hunt >> We looked hard at the GM minivans. Even with an "employee discount" and >> 0.0% [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > large cash discount, it is better to go with GMAC, but sometimes you can > save money. > Methinks you are confusing the 'selling price' with the TOTAL COST and the > method of payment. The selling price is only a part of the total cost of [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > There is no way you can finance THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY for less > anywhere else, when compared to zero interest. I did not say it was the same amount of money; better brush up on your reading comprehension! I am telling you, sir, that the amount to be financed was $6300 Cdn less paying "Cash" than financed through GMAC at 0.0%. It was, indeed, an incentive for paying cash. Maybe this does not happen in the US, but it does here. In fact, that particular salesman said he sold all his Caveliers using the "cash" price, as it saved the customer $$. Of course, most dealers don't clue people in on this and it does not work for all models, as I said. Thus, the total cost of a 48 month loan was less when financed through the bank. Believe me or don't, I really don't give a sh.t. Jane > mike hunt > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> have a large cash discount, it is better to go with GMAC, but sometimes >> you can save money. What I was trying to enlighten you to, was you the fact that you could have purchased the vehicle at that same price, no mater what the salesman told you. How you pay the selling price is not a factor in the selling price only in the total purchase price. Did you get the paint sealant, fabric guard and mud guards, as well? When I was still in retail we loved buyers like you. LOL mike hunt >> Methinks you are confusing the 'selling price' with the TOTAL COST and >> the method of payment. The selling price is only a part of the total [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >>> have a large cash discount, it is better to go with GMAC, but sometimes >>> you can save money. > What I was trying to enlighten you to, was you the fact that you could > have purchased the vehicle at that same price, no mater what the salesman > told you. How you pay the selling price is not a factor in the selling > price only in the total purchase price. Did you get the paint sealant, > fabric guard and mud guards, as well? Never When I was still in retail we loved buyers > like you. LOL At least I know enough not to top-post. > mike hunt > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] >>>> don't have a large cash discount, it is better to go with GMAC, but >>>> sometimes you can save money. > Did you get the paint sealant, fabric > guard and mud guards, as well? When I was still in retail we loved buyers > like you. Another rip off. Mike I knew you were a GM insider! When I was in retail I was Group Sales Manager, for ten years, for a mega-dealership LLC that own stores in six eastern states. We sold just about every brand available back then. Generally it was easy to sell the add-ons to import intenders that domestic intenders. LOL mike hunt >> Did you get the paint sealant, fabric >> guard and mud guards, as well? When I was still in retail we loved [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Another rip off. > Mike I knew you were a GM insider! > I am telling you, sir, that the amount to be financed was $6300 Cdn less > paying "Cash" than financed through GMAC at 0.0%. It was, indeed, an [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I said. Thus, the total cost of a 48 month loan was less when financed > through the bank. Believe me or don't, I really don't give a sh.t. You're right Jane. It's also that way in my part of CDA and I'm sure in the USA as well. I see the USA ads on TV. >> I am telling you, sir, that the amount to be financed was $6300 Cdn less >> paying "Cash" than financed through GMAC at 0.0%. It was, indeed, an [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > It's also that way in my part of CDA and I'm sure in the USA as well. > I see the USA ads on TV. Yes. You will see a newspaper ad with a really low price and the fine print always says "cash price". Mike maintains that I could have talked the dealer into the same price and still gotten 0.0%, but that is not the case. Besides, I have a particular dealership that I am loyal to (because their service is second to none..."goodwilling" repairs out of warranty when it is a known issue; always a free courtesy car, if needed). I am not going to be running around haggling to see if I can save a couple bucks elsewhere. This last "value van" I bought cheap they had to get from Ottawa, as they were sold out (I live between Oshawa and Peterborough). I buy a new car almost every year (hubby gets a new truck every five years) and we are both employees, so we do not buy anything but GM. And, no, I don't buy extended warranties or all the other crap! Jane I'll try once more than that's it. What GM was offering was a zero interest loan OR a discount from the MSRP of a specific amount on various vehicles, not a discount for cash. The discount offered is generally equal to the interest that would be paid on the MAXIMUM financed amount, as a percentage of the dealer net cost, that GM would finance. In the case of that vehicle it could well be $6,000. Generally if one has a late model trade it is better to take the discount off MSRP than the zero interest because it is greater, because of a lower loan, than the amount one can save in interest even at zero. If one is financing the maximum the resulting low difference between the discounted MSRP can be financed elsewhere, even at a given rate, that will result in lower monthly payment. All of that is true but it has NOTHING to do with the price you will pay for the vehicle. That interest rate and that discount are from GM and GMAC. However the actual selling price is determined by the dealership. Let us say the MSRP is $30,000, the dealers net cost is around 15% less. Most dealers will gladly sell a car for $500 when no trade is involved. If the dealer did not discount the vehicle, other than the GM rebate, you did not save a dime by 'paying cash'. You could by that $30,000 vehicle from the dealer for $26,000 and still get the $6,000 for GM, and finance the $20,000 loan elsewhere and save on the total drive home price. I bought a 2006 Lincoln for my wife for Christmas. The Manufactures finance arm offered a rebate, if one financed through it. I bought the vehicle for $200 over invoice, took a $5,000 loan and the rebate of $500 against the final selling price which was now $300 below invoice. I will send a check for the balance with my first payment do next week. mike hunt >>> I am telling you, sir, that the amount to be financed was $6300 Cdn less >>> paying "Cash" than financed through GMAC at 0.0%. It was, indeed, an [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Jane >I'll try once more than that's it. What GM was offering was a zero interest >loan OR a discount from the MSRP of a specific amount on various vehicles, >not a discount for cash. Hmm let's see. They offer it at one price with 0% financing, or at a discounted price if you pay them the entire price all up front (either by having a fat wallet or having some 3rd party loan you the money to pay them with). I don't know how your brain operates, but paying them the entire price up front is what is known to them as cash. Are you implying that a "cash discount" is only for those who actually hand over green bills? A check for the amount (from you OR your 3rd party lender) is considered cash in this context, so in fact, it IS a discount for cash. Or if you like, a penalty in price to gain the financing through GMAC at 0%. Either way, it IS the same thing. > I buy a new car almost > every year (hubby gets a new truck every five years) and we are both > employees, so we do not buy anything but GM. > > And, no, I don't buy extended warranties or all the other crap! It would hardly make sense for you to buy the extended warranty. You don't keep a vehicle long enough. However I'm not in favor of them anyway, if the vehicle is well designed and built. I buy for the longer term and don't buy new designs for a few years. > The dealership earns > extra profit if you finance through GMAC, a bank or a finance company. At a > given interest rate the dealer will receive a percentage of the interest, > generally around 1%. At zero interest GM still offers the dealer a finder > fee of a few hundred dollars. There is no way you can finance THE SAME > AMOUNT OF MONEY for less anywhere else, when compared to zero interest. Except there is a discount for a cash payment That discount is lost if financing through GMAC or other dealer select financie company. That discount is actually the real interest and dealer finder fee. So finance elsewhere and get the cash discount. You'll usually be ahead. Interest rates are very low out there. Zero interest is a shell game. It's just a numbers con. >> The dealership earns >> extra profit if you finance through GMAC, a bank or a finance company. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > financing through GMAC or other dealer select financie company. > That discount is actually the real interest and dealer finder fee. Thank you. That is exactly what I was saying. > So finance elsewhere and get the cash discount. > You'll usually be ahead. Interest rates are very low out there. > > Zero interest is a shell game. It's just a numbers con. Crunch the numbers and find out your own answer. In my case, I used the UBS buying service for a prenegotiated price. I used the Manufacuterer 3.9% finacing and wheeled and dealed on the trade for a 10y.o. Ford Taurus. The UBS price was as good as I could have gotten, since it was better than the dealer and manufacturer incentives. I chose the 3.9% over a $500 rebate because the interest rate at my Credit Union was 6.9%. I CRUNCHED the numbers and made my decision. It would have been different if I had paid cash like I had in the past. > >> The dealership earns > >> extra profit if you finance through GMAC, a bank or a finance company. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > > Zero interest is a shell game. It's just a numbers con. >Except there is a discount for a cash payment That discount is lost if >financing through GMAC or other dealer select financie company. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Zero interest is a shell game. It's just a numbers con. Exactly! > Except there is a discount for a cash payment That discount is lost if > financing through GMAC or other dealer select financie company. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Zero interest is a shell game. It's just a numbers con. The best thing to do is either send in one person to find out the lowest cash payment - get it in writing - and then the other comes and asks for the financing deal or you can ask yourself but start out as a cash payment customer - important to have the cash price in writing - never trust the word of a dealer - their word is not worth the paper it is written on It used to be the other way round so you could get a better deal if you got finance Then you asked the dealer first fir the financed price and then paid cash It is all in the game The internet is changing the rules of the game and it is hard to be a dealer and conartist when the customer is wise to your methods There are some of them posting to this NG and trying to play their con game and trying to confuse the rest of us > We looked seriously at GMs, but ended up buying a Sienna. Same price or less > than a GM minivan, even with the GMS employee price. Glad to hear it. I guess there's no reason for you to hang around here anymore. Right....?? Dave Do you mean to say you believe him when he says he bought a Toyota for the same price as GMs 'X' plan? That should have been your first clue he was full of baloney. LOL mike hunt >> We looked seriously at GMs, but ended up buying a Sienna. Same price or > less [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Dave > Do you mean to say you believe him when he says he bought a Toyota for the > same price as GMs 'X' plan? That should have been your first clue he was > full of baloney. LOL The fact that he's full of baloney is obvious. As was the point of my post. Dave > >> We looked seriously at GMs, but ended up buying a Sienna. Same price or > > less [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > > Dave > Do you mean to say you believe him when he says he bought a Toyota for the > same price as GMs 'X' plan? That should have been your first clue he was > full of baloney. LOL My recollection is that he was comparing the Sienna to a Saturn Relay (you know Saturn, GM's "Import Intender Contender"). Based on current carsdirect.com pricing: 2006 Saturn Relay 3 van $28,295 selling price. This is a mid-level equipment package van with leather interior but. From the same source, a 2006 Toyota Sienna XLE is quoted at $27,575. The XLE is also a well equipped leather interior model. Check the information out for yourself. Maybe GM has simply priced the Saturn Relay version of their not-a-minivan, minivan too high ????? John ...a nd the Chevy was not any cheaper. The Sienna LE pkg3 was $ 26,500 with more equipment than a Saturn at the same price. It was a "GM-S price, which is typically below invoice. I got the Sienna for about $2,000 off of MSRP and 3.9% financing. > > Do you mean to say you believe him when he says he bought a Toyota for the > > same price as GMs 'X' plan? That should have been your first clue he was [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > John You should have bought a car. I know, but we have kids and ... they are convenient. 10 years from now it will be all cars again. > You should have bought a car. > It is assembled > in Indiana with 85% American componets and 10% Japanese. How about GM, > Chinese built 3.5 V-6 engines ? I just read an article today on the new Chev Malibu Maxx SS. A great new engine designed in Europe. What did Gm do with their designers, lay them off after preventing them from advancing GM's technology for so many years? This was at the GM site: > The new Malibu SS models feature a 3.9L V6 engine with variable valve timing > that enhances combustion efficiency and torque output across the engine's rpm > range. The engine delivers a breathtaking 240 hp and 241 lb.-ft. of torque. > Performance is further enhanced by the tap-up/tap-down sport shifting of the > 4-speed automatic transmission. Sounds like a great engine, although too big for the application, but what's that a 4 sp auto. I can't believe GM is still installing 4 sp transmissions in a car attempting to sell to this market segment. >:) |
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