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Car Forum / GMC Cars / February 2006

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The Tragedy of General Motors

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Jim Higgins - 09 Feb 2006 11:07 GMT
The Tragedy of General Motors
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm

--
"...guarded by a tired cohort of Roman Heavy Infantry"
Charge - 09 Feb 2006 11:53 GMT
Does your post mean I can post links pertaining GM again?

There were a couple posts stated that my posts were old news and and
supposedly violated the rules of alt.autos.gm.

I have since kill filed those posters!

> The Tragedy of General Motors
> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm
>
> --
> "...guarded by a tired cohort of Roman Heavy Infantry"
Jim Higgins - 09 Feb 2006 12:12 GMT
If I screwed up I apologize.  I had assumed that a post on GM was
appropriate.

> Does your post mean I can post links pertaining GM again?
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>> --
>> "...guarded by a tired cohort of Roman Heavy Infantry"
DH - 09 Feb 2006 14:49 GMT
> If I screwed up I apologize.  I had assumed that a post on GM was
> appropriate.

I don't know what others would find to complain about but I thank you for
calling the article to my attention.  I wouldn't have noticed it otherwise
and it was well worth reading.

> > Does your post mean I can post links pertaining GM again?
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >
> >> The Tragedy of General Motors

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm

> >> --
> >> "...guarded by a tired cohort of Roman Heavy Infantry"
Charge - 11 Feb 2006 21:47 GMT
I also found that article very interesting and to the point.

Even though I dont't call others "bub".
I do place a period at the end of my sentences!

>> If I screwed up I apologize.  I had assumed that a post on GM was
>> appropriate.
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>> >> --
>> >> "...guarded by a tired cohort of Roman Heavy Infantry"
Bassplayer12 - 09 Feb 2006 12:58 GMT
> The Tragedy of General Motors
> http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm

Do you think that if GM built cars equal in quality to the Japanese, and if
they paid salaries and benefits that are reasonnable, that people would get
a better value for their money and buy their cars?
gosinn@gmail.com - 09 Feb 2006 13:08 GMT
> > The Tragedy of General Motors
> > http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm
>
> Do you think that if GM built cars equal in quality to the Japanese, and if
> they paid salaries and benefits that are reasonnable, that people would get
> a better value for their money and buy their cars?

>From the article quoated above

"The gist of GM's sales problem is summed up by Don Freda, a suburban
New Yorker who has run an independent auto-repair shop for 52 years.
What, he is asked, do you think about the quality of GM's cars these
days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used
to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them.""
Bassplayer12 - 09 Feb 2006 13:24 GMT
>> > The Tragedy of General Motors
>> > http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used
> to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them.""

In the paragraph just before, we can also read:
"Meanwhile, GM people haul out comparison charts showing, for example, that
a Chevrolet Malibu outdoes Toyota's Camry in just about every performance
rating going, yet costs $2,640 less. Customers shrug their shoulders and
keep on buying Camrys--THEIR MEMORIES ARE LONG, and their motivation for
returning to GM small."
In other words, they have some serious PR to do in order to gain customers
back.
John Horner - 13 Feb 2006 03:04 GMT
>>"The gist of GM's sales problem is summed up by Don Freda, a suburban
>>New Yorker who has run an independent auto-repair shop for 52 years.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> In other words, they have some serious PR to do in order to gain customers
> back.

For most new car buyers the higher resale value of a Camry more than
makes up for any up front price premium.   GM car and minivan resale
values are horrible.

John
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 16 Feb 2006 05:40 GMT
> For most new car buyers the higher resale value of a Camry more than
> makes up for any up front price premium.   GM car and minivan resale
> values are horrible.

Moral of the story:

Buy a GM car slightly used and get a good car REALLY cheap.
Bob Bitch'n - 09 Feb 2006 13:37 GMT
>> > The Tragedy of General Motors
>> > http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used
> to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them.""

This I believe is more to the point (from the same article):

"Lutz--and all at GM--are plainly battling the past, when many buyers gave
up on its vehicles and turned to foreign cars. Today, GM has an enormous
perception problem: a belief by too many U.S. consumers--particularly in the
East, West, and some of the South, which pretty much leaves GM hugging the
Midwest--that it doesn't make cars as reliable as those of foreign
producers. That was indisputably true once. The current evidence, though, is
mixed: Consumer Reports, a bible for many carbuyers, rates GM's improvements
as "inconsistent" and ranks most of its cars as also-rans; J.D. Power,
however, a leading arbiter of quality, gives many of its cars top grades.
Meanwhile, GM people haul out comparison charts showing, for example, that a
Chevrolet Malibu outdoes Toyota's Camry in just about every performance
rating going, yet costs $2,640 less. Customers shrug their shoulders and
keep on buying Camrys--their memories are long, and their motivation for
returning to GM small."
Bassplayer12 - 09 Feb 2006 17:34 GMT
snip

> producers. That was indisputably true once. The current evidence, though,
> is mixed: Consumer Reports, a bible for many carbuyers, rates GM's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> their shoulders and keep on buying Camrys--their memories are long, and
> their motivation for returning to GM small."

At the same time, an article I read not too long ago was saying that the
Cobalt had the worst collision results in its class.
John Horner - 13 Feb 2006 03:11 GMT
> snip
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> At the same time, an article I read not too long ago was saying that the
> Cobalt had the worst collision results in its class.

Part of GM's problem is that *some* of it's vehicles excel is *some*
ways, but on the whole the company does not build best-in-class cars.

The world's biggest auto company should build best-in-class vehicles
across the board.    Toyota tries really hard to do so.  GM is happy
with "competitive".

John
John Horner - 13 Feb 2006 03:08 GMT
>>>From the article quoated above

>  The current evidence, though, is
> mixed: Consumer Reports, a bible for many carbuyers, rates GM's improvements
> as "inconsistent" and ranks most of its cars as also-rans; J.D. Power,
> however, a leading arbiter of quality, gives many of its cars top grades.

J.D. Power focuses mostly on minor things gone wrong in the first few
months of ownership.  Most car buyers could care less if 1, 2 or 3 minor
problems show up between purchase and the first oil change.

Consumer Reports' data covers the first six or so years of ownership,
which is the time window the majority of car buyers care about.

I am a lot more upset about the A/C evaporator failure and intake
manifold gasket failure on our '02 Olds than I was about the couple of
minor things which were fixed early on under warranty.   The evaporator
and intake gasket both happened in the year after the warranty ran out
and each job is $1000 plus.  I get very unhappy about spending that kind
of money repairing a well cared for 3 year old car.

John
Bassplayer12 - 13 Feb 2006 17:02 GMT
snip

> I am a lot more upset about the A/C evaporator failure and intake manifold
> gasket failure on our '02 Olds than I was about the couple of minor things
> which were fixed early on under warranty.   The evaporator and intake
> gasket both happened in the year after the warranty ran out and each job
> is $1000 plus.  I get very unhappy about spending that kind of money
> repairing a well cared for 3 year old car.

That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to
Japanese or European cars.
Charge - 13 Feb 2006 18:01 GMT
"That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to
Japanese or European cars."  That is a band aid solution!

Japanese or European cars cannot be left out as being imperfect.

Due to a over supply on the market there are Hondas that can't be sold as
new
are having their odometer miles changed via sitting on a platform in a drive
gear
to be immediately sold as used.  So, why is there a glut of certain new
Honda
automobiles taken off the market and sold as used.

There is one of many reasons why, posters that bash GM on alt.autos.gm that
don't have the time to buy foreign Japanese!  They would rather waste time
bashing GM than running right out to rice rocket land and buying one of
those
bright and shinny rice plastic and steel wonders from rice world.

Do you get a collectible samurai sword with the purchase of those bright and
shinny rice plastic and steel wonders from rice world?

Ponder these issues!
How about their blatant disregard of environmental tailpipe pollution?
How about failure of parts on Japanese or European cars nobody will
acknowledge?
How about waiting months for replacement of failed parts on Japanese or
European cars?
How about the "no" recalls on Japanese or European cars that nobody will
acknowledge?
How about the premise "you get what you pay for"?

> snip
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to
> Japanese or European cars.
Glynn Edgar - 13 Feb 2006 20:16 GMT
> "That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to
> Japanese or European cars."  That is a band aid solution!
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
>> That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to
>> Japanese or European cars.

Source and proof to this statement about new cars being sold as used , this
is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge
fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of  business practice.
Charge - 14 Feb 2006 06:04 GMT
> Source and proof to this statement about new cars being sold as used ,
> this is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge
> fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of  business practice

You doubt that I was told this by a reliable source?

Who will prosecute "Japanese or European" car companies guilty of legally
circumventing US laws for decades?

These are the same "Japanese or European" car companies guilty of marketing
their cars to "dumb and stupid" Americans.

>> "That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to
>> Japanese or European cars."  That is a band aid solution!
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> this is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge
> fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of  business practice.
SgtSilicon - 15 Feb 2006 23:54 GMT
Trying to sell something as new that is really used would be a
problem.  That's not what they are talking about here.  Here it is new
cars being sold as used.  And, in a technical aspect, if the cars
actually are getting the miles put on the odometer by running the car
and driving the wheels.... well then it really is used.

>> "That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to
>> Japanese or European cars."  That is a band aid solution!
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge
>fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of  business practice.
Charge - 16 Feb 2006 00:30 GMT
You are absolutely correct "SgtSilicon"!

My intention of raising the issue was to counter the bashing of GM.

I have had my fair share of GM problems.

> Trying to sell something as new that is really used would be a
> problem.  That's not what they are talking about here.  Here it is new
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>>is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge
>>fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of  business practice.
Glynn Edgar - 16 Feb 2006 16:50 GMT
I don't know about other countries but here in Canada to be classified a
vehicle as used their MUST be a transfer of ownership paper to an individual
or business, even demonstrators are registered to the salesmen who are
driving them who then in turn can claim their gas etc. as expense deductions
when income tax time comes.  No matter what the country of origin is of the
manufacturer they are still subject to Canadian law if they sell a product
here and are caught engaging in any illegal activity and I would assume the
states would have the same laws.

> Trying to sell something as new that is really used would be a
> problem.  That's not what they are talking about here.  Here it is new
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
>>is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge
>>fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of  business practice.
SgtSilicon - 17 Feb 2006 03:20 GMT
That's why I said in a "technical aspect".   As to the legal aspects,
well, I'm no lawyer and am not about to claim knowledge I don't have.

>I don't know about other countries but here in Canada to be classified a
>vehicle as used their MUST be a transfer of ownership paper to an individual
[quoted text clipped - 65 lines]
>>>is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge
>>>fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of  business practice.
John Horner - 14 Feb 2006 04:08 GMT
> "That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to
>  Japanese or European cars."  That is a band aid solution!
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Honda
> automobiles taken off the market and sold as used.

Sounds like an urban legend.  Do you have any documentation of this?

John
Charge - 14 Feb 2006 06:14 GMT
"Sounds like an urban legend.?"

"Do you have any documentation of this?"

Now what would you do if you had documentation of this?

There is very little either of us could do.

I repeated partially what I heard.

What company on this green earth would publish this about their products?

>> "That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to
>>  Japanese or European cars."  That is a band aid solution!
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> John
SgtSilicon - 15 Feb 2006 23:55 GMT
Put up the proof please.  Let us worry about what we may or may not do
with it.

>"Sounds like an urban legend.?"
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>>
>> John
NickySantoro - 09 Feb 2006 14:40 GMT
>> > The Tragedy of General Motors
>> > http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used
>to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them.""

Again the old adages apply..
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me.
"Once bitten, twice shy."

The American car buyer has been bitten, has been fooled, and is now
quite "shy" about American cars.

GM and Ford are not going to get their credibility back based on
promises. It will take several years of true quality and competitive
pricing to regain the faith of the new car buying public. Personally,
I don't think it will happen. While the management at GM and Ford plan
for the next quarter, "Toshiro" is planning for the next decade.
Detroit just has too many MBAs and too few Zora Arcus-Duntovs.
gosinn@gmail.com - 09 Feb 2006 15:17 GMT
I have had many different brands of cars over the years
I have also heard stories about cars
I have used rental cars

Bad experience from years ago will sit in a long long time

There are so many good altenatives available so why try again something
that was failure before

If you think about being alive in the future you better have a
salesforce and production thinking about the future

A salesman trying to get off easy on a oneoff sale can hurt the company
for years to come

The whole chain of events from wooing a first time buyer until he buys
the next car is important

You have to know his dream and wishes and you should try to make sure
his dreams come true and do not turn into a nightmare

He may not tell anyone about his dream but he is sure to tell anyone
about a nightmare
Bassplayer12 - 09 Feb 2006 17:32 GMT
snip

> The American car buyer has been bitten, has been fooled, and is now
> quite "shy" about American cars.

I was the owner of a 1990 Plymouth Grand Voyager for 13 years.
Twice, it went to the shop for major transmission problems, under warranty.
The transmission went a third time and I had to pay for the repairs. The 4th
time, I said, enough! Sold it!
After only a few years, the paint started to peel on the roof and the hood.
When that happend, I started to notice the same problem on many other
Chrysler vehicules.
So, I have been fooled, as you say and, although Chrysler may build better
vehicules today, I still will stay away for ever from them, out of
retribution for what it cost me in repairs and maintenance while I owned the
van.

> GM and Ford are not going to get their credibility back based on
> promises. It will take several years of true quality and competitive
> pricing to regain the faith of the new car buying public. Personally,
> I don't think it will happen. While the management at GM and Ford plan
> for the next quarter, "Toshiro" is planning for the next decade.
> Detroit just has too many MBAs and too few Zora Arcus-Duntovs.
Spam Hater - 09 Feb 2006 19:54 GMT
> I was the owner of a 1990 Plymouth Grand Voyager for 13 years.
> Twice, it went to the shop for major transmission problems, under warranty.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> retribution for what it cost me in repairs and maintenance while I owned the
> van.

Those early Chrysler vans were of questionable mechanical design and the
early years of their 4SP transmission were troublesome.
The vans advanced beyond using K car components and the 4SP transmission
became quite reliable around '94.
Also the early years of a new environmentally friendly paint were a
learning curve for Chrysler and other car companies.
bassplayere12 - 09 Feb 2006 21:15 GMT
SNIP

> Those early Chrysler vans were of questionable mechanical design and the
> early years of their 4SP transmission were troublesome.
> The vans advanced beyond using K car components and the 4SP transmission
> became quite reliable around '94.
> Also the early years of a new environmentally friendly paint were a
> learning curve for Chrysler and other car companies.

I am ready to understand that and give them the benefit of the doubt,
although it was a too serious a problem and it should have been
adressed sooner.
As for the transmission problems, their are inexcusable, IMHO.
I wish I remembered what my tranny shop mechanic said about Chrysler
transmissions. He was shaking his head and, at the same time, was
thankful to Chrisler for the amount of business that brought him.
gosinn@gmail.com - 09 Feb 2006 22:05 GMT
Ford invented and patented a new technique of dipping the metal into
paint rather than spraying paint on the metal it meant less problems
and better paintjob etc gets a long lasting effect

Toyota immediately bought the patent and put it in all its factories
all cars

Ford and GM only very slowly introduced the new technique in a few
factories and a few luxury cars

Same happens over and over again Toyota fast with new ideas and it does
not matter who makes them and very keen on making better cars Ford and
GM slow and do not care much for improvements they very often invent
themselves and others use better than they themselves

That is the base of the GM/Ford todays tragedies

It is just slowly happening and they should have started realising this
years ago

Over a long period of time the quality difference becomes apparent
tc - 09 Feb 2006 23:12 GMT
> Ford invented and patented a new technique of dipping the metal into
> paint rather than spraying paint on the metal it meant less problems
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Over a long period of time the quality difference becomes apparent

Very rare that i post to someone else bright ideas and from someone that
has worked at gm and been in gm and toyota plants.  gm has been as you
call dipping cars into paint for about 25 years or so its called ELPO
electro plate process that completey rustproofs the whole car body,
there wasnt much difference in the process from plant to plant most
processes are based on volume and line speed all things equal there isnt
much difference in assembly, the toyota plants have there  tools made
overseas at a much lower cost and they are thowaways in my opinion. they
can build a new set of tools and have them ready for production in a
very short time because the cost is so much less remember assembly is
the least of the car process. if i can buy all the components from japan
and other asian places my cost will be much lower than any american co.
it will force all the domestic plants to do the same, and then soon they
will be just like the foreign makes, and much of the profit will be off
shore and with it many american jobs
Spam Hater - 10 Feb 2006 08:36 GMT
> the toyota plants have there  tools made
> overseas at a much lower cost and they are thowaways in my opinion. they
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> will be just like the foreign makes, and much of the profit will be off
> shore and with it many american jobs
Yet the fast selling Toyotas cost more than that GM junk.
Jim Higgins - 10 Feb 2006 10:39 GMT
>> the toyota plants have there  tools made
>> overseas at a much lower cost and they are thowaways in my opinion. they
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> shore and with it many american jobs
> Yet the fast selling Toyotas cost more than that GM junk.

Toyota, Honda, etc. build cars that people want and GM has real trouble
managing that.  People also have very long memories about being badly burned
by domestic automakers.  *That* is another major problem for Detroit.  As
the last sentence or so in the article had a dealer saying that he doesn't
believe that the people who got Detroit into failure mode are the ones who
can save it.
SgtSilicon - 11 Feb 2006 18:58 GMT
Just wondering Bub; did you ever learn how to end a sentence with a
period?

>> Ford invented and patented a new technique of dipping the metal into
>> paint rather than spraying paint on the metal it meant less problems
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>will be just like the foreign makes, and much of the profit will be off
>shore and with it many american jobs
Charge - 11 Feb 2006 22:02 GMT
This newsgroup is amazing with the diverse interests of it's posters.

There is a "SgtSilicon" that purports to have "secretspam" and "ihatespam"
  at the same time while he critiques other for their punctuation.

I enjoyed reading that post with or without "end a sentence with a period?"

I understood the message the author conveyed!

> Just wondering Bub; did you ever learn how to end a sentence with a
> period?
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>>will be just like the foreign makes, and much of the profit will be off
>>shore and with it many american jobs ( . period)
SgtSilicon - 11 Feb 2006 23:45 GMT
I do not "purport to have" secret spam.  It is given as a fictitious
user name, and likewise "ihatespam.net" is a fictitious domain.  I'm
sorry you don't have the reading comprehension skills to understand
that without explanation.

Also, I'm all happy for you that you were so tickled pinky pleased
with reading the big run on sentence of the century.  I found it
distracting and annoying and stopped reading the post after about 6 or
so lines.  Not because I couldn't understand it, but because it was
distracting and annoying.

>This newsgroup is amazing with the diverse interests of it's posters.
>
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>>>will be just like the foreign makes, and much of the profit will be off
>>>shore and with it many american jobs ( . period)
Spam Hater - 09 Feb 2006 19:47 GMT
> GM and Ford are not going to get their credibility back based on
> promises. It will take several years of true quality and competitive
> pricing to regain the faith of the new car buying public. Personally,
> I don't think it will happen. While the management at GM and Ford plan
> for the next quarter, "Toshiro" is planning for the next decade.
> Detroit just has too many MBAs and too few Zora Arcus-Duntovs.

Well said.  
I feel Ford has a chance, with the influx of new ideas from Volvo, Mazda
etc.
GM seems to be resisting new design ideas, their bean counters are
simple importing new cars of questionable quality  from Asia; such as
Korea.

Both are stuck with loses on truck type SUVs and plum union contracts.
Spam Hater - 09 Feb 2006 19:42 GMT
> "The gist of GM's sales problem is summed up by Don Freda, a suburban
> New Yorker who has run an independent auto-repair shop for 52 years.
> What, he is asked, do you think about the quality of GM's cars these
> days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used
> to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them.""
I've been looking over the last few years.
IMO GM's vehicles are of inferior design, in fact many aspects of them
are very out dated.
John Horner - 13 Feb 2006 03:03 GMT
>>>The Tragedy of General Motors
>>>http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used
> to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them.""

Year ago Hyundai had a similar problem.  Hyundai responded with an
agressive warranty combined with a serious quality improvement efforts.

Hyundai sales and market share have been growing ever since.

I have been saying this for a long time and it remains true:  If GM
really does have it's quality act together now then they need to
demonstrate it by dramatically improving their new vehicle warranty
period.   7 years/100k miles would do the trick.    This would add value
to the vehicle rather than taking value away like the endless rebate and
other promotions do.

John
Cool Jet - 13 Feb 2006 03:57 GMT
> Year ago Hyundai had a similar problem.  Hyundai responded with an
> agressive warranty combined with a serious quality improvement efforts.
>
> Hyundai sales and market share have been growing ever since.

John, the true measure of Hyundai's success or failure in this program
is not sales or market share. It is profitability or losses at the
bottom of the Income Statement and how it all shakes out on the Balance
Sheet.  Have a look at Hyundai's Balance Sheet and Income Statement
John.  Years of horrendous Operating Losses. Then let us know your
opinion on how well Hyundai is doing. ;-)  You just may find that their
massive Deficit in Retained Earnings suggests that they are insolvent.
(A nice way of saying bankrupt.) And don't be fooled by that big figure
called "Capital Adjustements". Korean G.A.A.P. (Generally Accepted
Accounting Principles) are not at all like U.S. standards.  Daewoo
being a case in point. Here's a link to Hyundai's Balance Sheet John.
After reading it, give us a more informed opinion on how wise Hyundai
was with their aggressive warranty.  Increased Sales don't mean squat
if you're losing money on every sale!

http://www.hyundaicorp.com/eng/ir/balance_sheet.asp

> I have been saying this for a long time and it remains true:  If GM
> really does have it's quality act together now then they need to
> demonstrate it by dramatically improving their new vehicle warranty
> period.   7 years/100k miles would do the trick.    This would add value
> to the vehicle rather than taking value away like the endless rebate and
> other promotions do.

Yah John, just like it added value to Hyundai. *nudge, nudge. wink,
wink* You may have been saying it for a long time John, but that
doesn't make it true. ;-)
gosinn@gmail.com - 13 Feb 2006 08:55 GMT
You are right!

>  Increased Sales don't mean squat
> if you're losing money on every sale!

GM is losing close to $1000 on every sale
Cool Jet - 13 Feb 2006 16:02 GMT
> You are right!
>
> >  Increased Sales don't mean squat
> > if you're losing money on every sale!
>
> GM is losing close to $1000 on every sale

gosinn, for once, it seems that you and I agree on something! *LOL*
John Horner - 14 Feb 2006 04:17 GMT
Ah yes, now GM is a real example of a healthy corporation:

http://www.gm.com/company/investor_information/earnings/

" GM reported a loss of $8.6 billion, or $15.13 per share for 2005,
compared to net income of $2.8 billion, or $4.92 per share in the
year-ago period. Revenue was $192.6 billion in 2005, compared to $193.5
billion in 2004."

Yes, I have been saying for a long time that GM should put it's money
where it's mouth is and improve it's warranties.  I still maintain that
doing so would make a great deal more sense than does putting thousands
of dollars on cars and selling over 20% of factory output to rental car
companies does.

GM keeps telling everyone to "trust me, our cars and trucks are much
better made now".   Why doesn't GM put it's money where it's mouth is?

If the quality is there, then longer warranties would cost GM next to
nothing.  I have yet to hear a solid counter argument to this point.

As far as Hyundai financials, it is almost impossible to separate out
Hyundai's automotive business from the many other pieces of their
business.   It is possible, however, to see the rapid sales growth
Hyundai has enjoyed.

GM boosters throwing stones at other company's financial reports is one
of the funniest moves ever.    You seem to think that you are better
informed than I am.  Enjoy your self-delusions.

John
John Horner - 14 Feb 2006 04:45 GMT
>  Here's a link to Hyundai's Balance Sheet John.
> After reading it, give us a more informed opinion on how wise Hyundai
> was with their aggressive warranty.  Increased Sales don't mean squat
> if you're losing money on every sale!

GM is that master at losing money on every sale.  Around $1000 per
vehicle in 2005 being the most recent example.

> http://www.hyundaicorp.com/eng/ir/balance_sheet.asp

Hey Cool Jet, you referenced the wrong company.  Hyundai Corp isn't the
Hyundai which makes automobiles.  The company you provided a link to
does shipping, natural resources, etc.  I realize that you know next to
nothing about the structure of Korean industry, so your mistake can be
understood and forgiven.

By the way, none of the other characteristics you have creatively
imagined about me in your various messages are correct, except that I am
indeed male.

The Asian based automobile companies are kicking GM's butt.  That is a
fact you seem to find impossible to accept even though the evidence is
plentiful.

John
Cool Jet - 15 Feb 2006 04:37 GMT
> Hey Cool Jet, you referenced the wrong company.  Hyundai Corp isn't the
> Hyundai which makes automobiles.  The company you provided a link to
> does shipping, natural resources, etc.  I realize that you know next to
> nothing about the structure of Korean industry, so your mistake can be
> understood and forgiven.

John, you have verified my suspicions that you are quite the dumbass.
Hyundai Corp is indeed the parent of the auto maker. Do your homework.
Send them an email and ask them. ;-) It took you over a day to respond
to my post. Surely, you could have researched your information better
during that time! I was once their corporate banker. ;-)

> By the way, none of the other characteristics you have creatively
> imagined about me in your various messages are correct, except that I am
> indeed male.

John, believe me, I have your number and its right on the money. You
are an ill-informed buffoon.

> The Asian based automobile companies are kicking GM's butt.  That is a
> fact you seem to find impossible to accept even though the evidence is
> plentiful.

Proof again that you don't know the difference between sales and
profit. Do your homework John. Take a Basic Ecenomics course and learn
how to read a financial statement. Oh right - it's not your style to
deal with factual information. Only idle speculation. lame John. Really
lame! ;-)
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 16 Feb 2006 21:38 GMT
Since the automotive division of Hyundai Corp. makes up about 1% of
total sales of the parent company, I'd say the income statement for
Hyundai Corp. is meaningless for this discussion.  Why do you look at
Hyundai Motor's income statement and get back to us.  Looks pretty
healthy to me:

http://ir.hyundai-motor.com/eng/index.html

$7.60 earnings per share.  $1.7 billion net income in 2004 on $27
billion in total sales.  Quite a bit better than GM, I'd say.
Cool Jet - 17 Feb 2006 14:25 GMT
> Since the automotive division of Hyundai Corp. makes up about 1% of
> total sales of the parent company, I'd say the income statement for
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> $7.60 earnings per share.  $1.7 billion net income in 2004 on $27
> billion in total sales.  Quite a bit better than GM, I'd say.

chrisvillar, take it from a corporate banker, if the ultimate parent of
of any wholly-owned subsidiary is financially unstable, so too is the
wholly-owned subsidiary. Any subsidiary can be made to look profitable
through inter-company pricing and interest-free intercompany
loans/debentures. But the bottom line is that all/any subsidiaries of
an insolvent company are, in essence, also insolvent. Once again, I
would refer you to the conglomerate - Daewoo Corporation. Their story
says it all. They were a very diverse company and the "Motors Division"
was only a small piece of the puzzle. Their bottom line was that the
parent and subsidiaries were all considered insolvent, after removing
the "smoke and mirrors".
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 17:01 GMT
> chrisvillar, take it from a corporate banker, if the ultimate parent of
> of any wholly-owned subsidiary is financially unstable, so too is the
> wholly-owned subsidiary.

Are we talking about financial stability or operating efficiency?

> Any subsidiary can be made to look profitable
> through inter-company pricing and interest-free intercompany
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> parent and subsidiaries were all considered insolvent, after removing
> the "smoke and mirrors".

Three or four messages ago you presented the finacials of Hyundai to
support your analysis of the failure of Hyundai Motors, even though the
motor division makes up about 1% of the sales of the parent company.
But now when we drill down to the specific financials for Hyundai
Motors, which doesn't support your analysis, financials are all smoke
and mirrors.
Cool Jet - 22 Feb 2006 04:19 GMT
> > chrisvillar, take it from a corporate banker, if the ultimate parent of
> > of any wholly-owned subsidiary is financially unstable, so too is the
> > wholly-owned subsidiary.
>
> Are we talking about financial stability or operating efficiency?

Uhhh chrisvillar, I could swear that the comment above your question
says (and I'll quote!) "financially unstable". I trust that answers
your question again! ;-)

> > Any subsidiary can be made to look profitable
> > through inter-company pricing and interest-free intercompany
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Motors, which doesn't support your analysis, financials are all smoke
> and mirrors.

*shaking head in disbelief* Uhh chrisvillar, I don't have a braille
copy of my previous post, but I will quote from it once again,
"chrisvillar, take it from a corporate banker, if the ultimate parent
of any wholly-owned subsidiary is financially unstable, so too is the
wholly-owned subsidiary."  chrisvillar, that's a pretty straightforward
statement, but let me try getting through to you another way -  If the
parent is insolvent, the results for Hyundai Motors mean nothing. Has
the light come on yet chrisvillar? ;-)
Cool Jet - 17 Feb 2006 18:50 GMT
> $7.60 earnings per share.  $1.7 billion net income in 2004 on $27
> billion in total sales.  Quite a bit better than GM, I'd say.

P.S.
chrisvillar, I'm not sure what you're reading, but on Page 34 of the
Report, Total Sales for 2004 are reported at $ 50 Billion U.S., not $
27 Billion and on Page 35,  Net (after Tax) Income was reported at $
1.6 Billion U.S., not $ 1.7 Billion U.S.

Earnings per share are reported at $ 7.09 U.S. and $ 7.07 per fully
diluted share.

But the aforementioned results are altogether questionable, when you
read the closing remarks of the auditors, found on Page 32 of the
Financial Report. This is a direct copy:

"Accounting principles and auditing standards and their application in
practice vary among countries. The accompanying financial statements
are not intended to present the financial position, results of
operations and cash flows in accordance with accounting principles and
practices generally accepted in countries other than the Republic of
Korea. In addition, the procedures and practices utilized in the
Republic of Korea to audit such financial statements may differ from
those generally accepted and applied in other countries. Accordingly,
this report and the accompanying financial statements are for use by
those knowledgeable about Korean accounting procedures and auditing
standards and their application in practice."

If those comments don't cause you concern, they should, because Korea
is infamous for their, shall we say, "creative accounting". ;-)
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 18:18 GMT
> > $7.60 earnings per share.  $1.7 billion net income in 2004 on $27
> > billion in total sales.  Quite a bit better than GM, I'd say.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 27 Billion and on Page 35,  Net (after Tax) Income was reported at $
> 1.6 Billion U.S., not $ 1.7 Billion U.S.

Man, I didn't dive into the 65 pager.  I'm just looking at the
non-consolidated statement of income for the year 2004 on the website.
It shows the numbers I quoted above.

> Earnings per share are reported at $ 7.09 U.S. and $ 7.07 per fully
> diluted share.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> If those comments don't cause you concern, they should, because Korea
> is infamous for their, shall we say, "creative accounting". ;-)

Aren't you the same person who started this whole thing by referencing
the financial statements of Hyundai Corp.?  Are korean financials, and
financial statements in general, reliable or not?  You started this
thing.
Cool Jet - 22 Feb 2006 04:37 GMT
> > chrisvillar, I'm not sure what you're reading, but on Page 34 of the
> > Report, Total Sales for 2004 are reported at $ 50 Billion U.S., not $
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> non-consolidated statement of income for the year 2004 on the website.
> It shows the numbers I quoted above.

No need to apologize for your oversight in not delving into the full
information on the link "you" provided chrisvillar. Those unfamiliar
with how to properly read and assess financial results often make that
mistake.

> Aren't you the same person who started this whole thing by referencing
> the financial statements of Hyundai Corp.?  Are korean financials, and
> financial statements in general, reliable or not?

No chrisvillar, they are not reliable. Once again, you appear not to
have read the comments that I already made in this regard. If I may
quote but again chrisvillar, I directed you to read the closing remarks
of the auditors, found on Page 32 of the
Financial Report. This is a direct copy from the very financial
statements that "you" provided (Didn't you read them being sending us
the link?) for Hyundai Motors:  "Accounting principles and auditing
standards and their application in practice vary among countries. The
accompanying financial statements are not intended to present the
financial position, results of operations and cash flows in accordance
with accounting principles and  practices generally accepted in
countries other than the Republic of Korea. In addition, the procedures
and practices utilized in the Republic of Korea to audit such financial
statements may differ from those generally accepted and applied in
other countries. Accordingly, this report and the accompanying
financial statements are for use by those knowledgeable about Korean
accounting procedures and auditing standards and their application in
practice."

> You started this thing.

What thing is that chrisvillar? The thing of trying to get someone to
delve into Hyundai Motors' financial statements before proclaiming how
well they are doing? Is telling the truth "the thing" that you say I
started? Shame on me for wanting people to know the truth chrisvillar.
;-) *still shaking head in disbelief*
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 23 Feb 2006 04:31 GMT
> > Aren't you the same person who started this whole thing by referencing
> > the financial statements of Hyundai Corp.?  Are korean financials, and
> > financial statements in general, reliable or not?
>
> No chrisvillar, they are not reliable.

Then let's cut through all your other BS and get to the point.  If
financials aren't reliable, why did you open this can of worms and use
the financial statements of Hyundai Corp. to support a position on the
failure of Hyundai Motors in the US?

> Once again, you appear not to
> have read the comments that I already made in this regard.

I read 'em.  But your talking out of both sides of your mouth so I just
wanted to get all of this straight so I could nail you down.  Turns out
it's like nailing down jello.  "Financials are unreliable" and then
"Look at the financials of Hyundai Corp., they are insolvent"

> If I may
> quote but again chrisvillar, I directed you to read the closing remarks
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> accounting procedures and auditing standards and their application in
> practice."

So you have a point?  All financial statements of multinational
corporations have similar explanations of the GAAP standards that
apply.

> > You started this thing.
>
> What thing is that chrisvillar? The thing of trying to get someone to
> delve into Hyundai Motors' financial statements before proclaiming how
> well they are doing? Is telling the truth "the thing" that you say I
> started? Shame on me for wanting people to know the truth chrisvillar.

The thing that you started was pointing to the financial statements of
Hyundai Corp. as if they somehow indicated that Hyundai Motor
operations were innefficient and losing money.  Just because a
conglomerate is insolvent does not mean that it has no assets at all.
So far I haven't seen any evidence that Hyundai Motors is anything but
a success.  You haven't presented any evidence other than to try to
cast doubt on the financials of Hyundai Motors.  Are they playing a
shell game with the financials, maybe, maybe not.  I think that I hear
you now saying that you can't tell either.  Well that is huge
backpedalling from your initial position that Hyundai Motors was losing
money on sales of automobiles.
Cool Jet - 24 Feb 2006 07:05 GMT
chrisvillar@hotmail.com only opened his mouth long enough to switch
feet when he wrote:
> Then let's cut through all your other BS and get to the point.  If
> financials aren't reliable, why did you open this can of worms and use
> the financial statements of Hyundai Corp. to support a position on the
> failure of Hyundai Motors in the US?

chrisvillar, in the financial world, we have an expression to describe
people like you - thicker than whale sh.t! First of all, in response to
your question: "Are korean financials...reliable or not?", I responded
that they are not reliable. That goes for Hyundai Corp. and its many
subsidiaries. It's a fact Chris. Why did you ask, if you didn't want to
hear the answer?

> I read 'em.

But clearly didn't understand 'em!

> But your talking out of both sides of your mouth so I just
> wanted to get all of this straight so I could nail you down.

chrisvillar, it's impossible for someone like yourself with absolutely
no financial knowledge to nail down anyone with business acumen because
you simply don't appear to have a clue about the subject matter. ;-)

> Turns out
> it's like nailing down jello.  "Financials are unreliable" and then
> "Look at the financials of Hyundai Corp., they are insolvent"

No chrisvillar. It's all quite straightforward. You're just too thick
to realize it. ;-) The point that you seem to be missing is that
Hyundai Corp's actual results would be far worse than their already
poor results as reported. Read my lips chrisvillar - Korean Financial
Reporting falls well short of North American reporting Standards. The
company's own notes to their financials told you that! And Hyundai
Motors financials are totally controlled and manipulated by the parent,
rendering them meaningless for analytical purposes. Is it sinking in
yet chrisvillar?

> > What thing is that chrisvillar? The thing of trying to get someone to
> > delve into Hyundai Motors' financial statements before proclaiming how
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> operations were innefficient and losing money.  Just because a
> conglomerate is insolvent does not mean that it has no assets at all.

I never once said that an insolvent conglomerate "has no assets at
all". You're writing fiction now chrisvillar.

> So far I haven't seen any evidence that Hyundai Motors is anything but
> a success.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink! ;-)

> You haven't presented any evidence other than to try to
> cast doubt on the financials of Hyundai Motors.  Are they playing a
> shell game with the financials, maybe, maybe not.  I think that I hear
> you now saying that you can't tell either.

If that's what you're hearing chrisvillar, you're clearly not listening
to me. *LOL* Your comments are now verging on the absurd. No need to
become hysterical chrisvillar. You're not alone. A lot of people lack
the training to read financial statements. Just take a course
chrisvillar, then it will all become clear. A lot of people lack common
sense chrisvillar, but sadly, that's not something you can acquire. You
either have it or you don't. Sorry, I can't help you there. There's no
course for common sense. ;-)

> Well that is huge
> backpedalling from your initial position that Hyundai Motors was losing
> money on sales of automobiles.

You are clearly reading someone elses comments, probably your own to
make such an inaccurate comment. But then, you've been making
inaccurate and silly comments since you first opened your mouth. Your
comments clearly point out that you have no business training or
understanding whatsoever and that you totally lack the tiniest iota of
common sense. And worse, you don't seem to know when you're in way over
your head. Stop making a fool of yourself chrisvillar and join a thread
or news group where you have something to contribute. I hate seeing
someone so utterly embarrass themselves by their lack of knowledge of
the subject matter.
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 24 Feb 2006 15:13 GMT
I love doing this to people.  9 times out of 10 when people get caught
saying something dumb they will wiggle and wiggle and dig a deeper and
deeper hole in order to save face instead of just admitting they aren't
perfect.  I'll tell you what.  Since you can't remember saying anything
contradictory, I will quote your exact words in previous posts to
highlight the contradictions.

Here we go:

> First of all, in response to
> your question: "Are korean financials...reliable or not?", I responded
> that they are not reliable. That goes for Hyundai Corp. and its many
> subsidiaries. It's a fact Chris. Why did you ask, if you didn't want to
> hear the answer?

I did want to hear the answer.  Not because I don't have my own
opintions, because hearing you answer highlights your inconsistency.
If they are unreliable, then why did you previously say:

"the true measure of Hyundai's success or failure in this program
is not sales or market share. It is profitability or losses at the
bottom of the Income Statement and how it all shakes out on the Balance

Sheet"

Why would you ask someone to look at a balance sheet that is
unreliable?

> The point that you seem to be missing is that
> Hyundai Corp's actual results would be far worse than their already
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> rendering them meaningless for analytical purposes. Is it sinking in
> yet chrisvillar?

HMMM, meaningless for analytical purposes.  And yet previously you
stated:

"Here's a link to Hyundai's Balance Sheet John.
After reading it, give us a more informed opinion on how wise Hyundai
was with their aggressive warranty."

Why should "John" use Hyundai's balance sheet to form an opinion if
that balance sheet is "meaningless for analytical purposes."

> I never once said that an insolvent conglomerate "has no assets at
> all". You're writing fiction now chrisvillar.

But you implied it very strongly.  You asked the world to look at the
financial statements of a money losing parent company.  The parent
company owns Hyundai Motors which contributes about 1% of the total
sales of the parent company.  But somehow you jump from the financial
statements of Hyundai Corp. to the conclustion that:

"[Hyundai Motors is] losing money on every sale!"

Are you not saying that Hyundai Motors is a liability rather than an
asset JUST because the parent company is losing money on their overall
operations?

> > So far I haven't seen any evidence that Hyundai Motors is anything but
> > a success.
>
> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink! ;-)

You haven't presented any evidence.  The financials for Hyundai Motors
look very strong.  All you've been able to successfully point out is
that those financials can't be compared directly to a US company using
US G.A.A.P.  And you've also pointed out the obvious possibility that
Hyundai Corp. MIGHT be playing a shell game with their accounting to
make Hyundai Motors look more profitable than it is.  But that's not
evidence, it's a hunch.

> > Well that is huge
> > backpedalling from your initial position that Hyundai Motors was losing
> > money on sales of automobiles.
>
> You are clearly reading someone elses comments, probably your own to
> make such an inaccurate comment.

Once again, let me quote your exact words:

"Here's a link to Hyundai's Balance Sheet John.
After reading it, give us a more informed opinion on how wise Hyundai
was with their aggressive warranty.  Increased Sales don't mean squat
if you're losing money on every sale!"

Not only did you say they were losing money on sales of autos, you said
they were losing money on EVERY sale.  Quite a bold and definitive
statement.  No room for doubt about what you meant.
Cool Jet - 24 Feb 2006 20:56 GMT
chrisvillar@hotmail.com was so far behind that he thought he was
winning the race and he actually patted himself on the back when he
wrote:

> snip meandering ramblings

chrisvillar, there is nothing more frustrating for me than to win every
count of an argument/disagreement/discussion, but to have a sparring
partner so delusional that they think they are winning. After a while,
it becomes pointless to continue the discussion. It occurs to me that
you are either totally out of touch with reality or you have someone
beside you, egging you on and trying to convince you that you know what
you are talking about. Although, for them to believe that, they would
actually have to be dumber than you. Which is highly improbable! You
seem completely devoid of any analytical reasoning ability, so you
shoot back rambling, senseless, incomprehensible comments. I truly
enjoy sparring with a worthy opponent, but you stopped making sense
quite some time ago. In a battle of wits, you are completely unarmed.
You seem to totally lack common sense. For the aforementioned reasons,
I choose to discontinue responding to your silly comments, because you
are simply wasting my time.  You refuse to listen and learn. Sad
really. It is now official - you are the 1st person I have ever felt it
necessary to killfile. *PLONK*
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 24 Feb 2006 22:43 GMT
> It is now official - you are the 1st person I have ever felt it
> necessary to killfile. *PLONK*

Good to finally catch you at a loss for words.  I'm not too worried
about whether you think you won an argument or not.  Anybody else
observing this thread will form their own opinion about which one of us
was making any sense at all.  In a comparison between the two of us,
I'm very comfortable with how I look.
 
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