Car Forum / GMC Cars / February 2006
The Tragedy of General Motors
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Jim Higgins - 09 Feb 2006 11:07 GMT The Tragedy of General Motors http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm
-- "...guarded by a tired cohort of Roman Heavy Infantry"
Charge - 09 Feb 2006 11:53 GMT Does your post mean I can post links pertaining GM again?
There were a couple posts stated that my posts were old news and and supposedly violated the rules of alt.autos.gm.
I have since kill filed those posters!
> The Tragedy of General Motors > http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm > > -- > "...guarded by a tired cohort of Roman Heavy Infantry" Jim Higgins - 09 Feb 2006 12:12 GMT If I screwed up I apologize. I had assumed that a post on GM was appropriate.
> Does your post mean I can post links pertaining GM again? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> -- >> "...guarded by a tired cohort of Roman Heavy Infantry" DH - 09 Feb 2006 14:49 GMT > If I screwed up I apologize. I had assumed that a post on GM was > appropriate. I don't know what others would find to complain about but I thank you for calling the article to my attention. I wouldn't have noticed it otherwise and it was well worth reading.
> > Does your post mean I can post links pertaining GM again? > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > > >> The Tragedy of General Motors http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm
> >> -- > >> "...guarded by a tired cohort of Roman Heavy Infantry" Charge - 11 Feb 2006 21:47 GMT I also found that article very interesting and to the point.
Even though I dont't call others "bub". I do place a period at the end of my sentences!
>> If I screwed up I apologize. I had assumed that a post on GM was >> appropriate. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> >> -- >> >> "...guarded by a tired cohort of Roman Heavy Infantry" Bassplayer12 - 09 Feb 2006 12:58 GMT > The Tragedy of General Motors > http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm Do you think that if GM built cars equal in quality to the Japanese, and if they paid salaries and benefits that are reasonnable, that people would get a better value for their money and buy their cars?
gosinn@gmail.com - 09 Feb 2006 13:08 GMT > > The Tragedy of General Motors > > http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm > > Do you think that if GM built cars equal in quality to the Japanese, and if > they paid salaries and benefits that are reasonnable, that people would get > a better value for their money and buy their cars?
>From the article quoated above "The gist of GM's sales problem is summed up by Don Freda, a suburban New Yorker who has run an independent auto-repair shop for 52 years. What, he is asked, do you think about the quality of GM's cars these days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them.""
Bassplayer12 - 09 Feb 2006 13:24 GMT >> > The Tragedy of General Motors >> > http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used > to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them."" In the paragraph just before, we can also read: "Meanwhile, GM people haul out comparison charts showing, for example, that a Chevrolet Malibu outdoes Toyota's Camry in just about every performance rating going, yet costs $2,640 less. Customers shrug their shoulders and keep on buying Camrys--THEIR MEMORIES ARE LONG, and their motivation for returning to GM small." In other words, they have some serious PR to do in order to gain customers back.
John Horner - 13 Feb 2006 03:04 GMT >>"The gist of GM's sales problem is summed up by Don Freda, a suburban >>New Yorker who has run an independent auto-repair shop for 52 years. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > In other words, they have some serious PR to do in order to gain customers > back. For most new car buyers the higher resale value of a Camry more than makes up for any up front price premium. GM car and minivan resale values are horrible.
John
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 16 Feb 2006 05:40 GMT > For most new car buyers the higher resale value of a Camry more than > makes up for any up front price premium. GM car and minivan resale > values are horrible. Moral of the story:
Buy a GM car slightly used and get a good car REALLY cheap.
Bob Bitch'n - 09 Feb 2006 13:37 GMT >> > The Tragedy of General Motors >> > http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used > to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them."" This I believe is more to the point (from the same article):
"Lutz--and all at GM--are plainly battling the past, when many buyers gave up on its vehicles and turned to foreign cars. Today, GM has an enormous perception problem: a belief by too many U.S. consumers--particularly in the East, West, and some of the South, which pretty much leaves GM hugging the Midwest--that it doesn't make cars as reliable as those of foreign producers. That was indisputably true once. The current evidence, though, is mixed: Consumer Reports, a bible for many carbuyers, rates GM's improvements as "inconsistent" and ranks most of its cars as also-rans; J.D. Power, however, a leading arbiter of quality, gives many of its cars top grades. Meanwhile, GM people haul out comparison charts showing, for example, that a Chevrolet Malibu outdoes Toyota's Camry in just about every performance rating going, yet costs $2,640 less. Customers shrug their shoulders and keep on buying Camrys--their memories are long, and their motivation for returning to GM small."
Bassplayer12 - 09 Feb 2006 17:34 GMT snip
> producers. That was indisputably true once. The current evidence, though, > is mixed: Consumer Reports, a bible for many carbuyers, rates GM's [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > their shoulders and keep on buying Camrys--their memories are long, and > their motivation for returning to GM small." At the same time, an article I read not too long ago was saying that the Cobalt had the worst collision results in its class.
John Horner - 13 Feb 2006 03:11 GMT > snip > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > At the same time, an article I read not too long ago was saying that the > Cobalt had the worst collision results in its class. Part of GM's problem is that *some* of it's vehicles excel is *some* ways, but on the whole the company does not build best-in-class cars.
The world's biggest auto company should build best-in-class vehicles across the board. Toyota tries really hard to do so. GM is happy with "competitive".
John
John Horner - 13 Feb 2006 03:08 GMT >>>From the article quoated above
> The current evidence, though, is > mixed: Consumer Reports, a bible for many carbuyers, rates GM's improvements > as "inconsistent" and ranks most of its cars as also-rans; J.D. Power, > however, a leading arbiter of quality, gives many of its cars top grades. J.D. Power focuses mostly on minor things gone wrong in the first few months of ownership. Most car buyers could care less if 1, 2 or 3 minor problems show up between purchase and the first oil change.
Consumer Reports' data covers the first six or so years of ownership, which is the time window the majority of car buyers care about.
I am a lot more upset about the A/C evaporator failure and intake manifold gasket failure on our '02 Olds than I was about the couple of minor things which were fixed early on under warranty. The evaporator and intake gasket both happened in the year after the warranty ran out and each job is $1000 plus. I get very unhappy about spending that kind of money repairing a well cared for 3 year old car.
John
Bassplayer12 - 13 Feb 2006 17:02 GMT snip
> I am a lot more upset about the A/C evaporator failure and intake manifold > gasket failure on our '02 Olds than I was about the couple of minor things > which were fixed early on under warranty. The evaporator and intake > gasket both happened in the year after the warranty ran out and each job > is $1000 plus. I get very unhappy about spending that kind of money > repairing a well cared for 3 year old car. That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to Japanese or European cars.
Charge - 13 Feb 2006 18:01 GMT "That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to Japanese or European cars." That is a band aid solution!
Japanese or European cars cannot be left out as being imperfect.
Due to a over supply on the market there are Hondas that can't be sold as new are having their odometer miles changed via sitting on a platform in a drive gear to be immediately sold as used. So, why is there a glut of certain new Honda automobiles taken off the market and sold as used.
There is one of many reasons why, posters that bash GM on alt.autos.gm that don't have the time to buy foreign Japanese! They would rather waste time bashing GM than running right out to rice rocket land and buying one of those bright and shinny rice plastic and steel wonders from rice world.
Do you get a collectible samurai sword with the purchase of those bright and shinny rice plastic and steel wonders from rice world?
Ponder these issues! How about their blatant disregard of environmental tailpipe pollution? How about failure of parts on Japanese or European cars nobody will acknowledge? How about waiting months for replacement of failed parts on Japanese or European cars? How about the "no" recalls on Japanese or European cars that nobody will acknowledge? How about the premise "you get what you pay for"?
> snip > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to > Japanese or European cars. Glynn Edgar - 13 Feb 2006 20:16 GMT > "That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to > Japanese or European cars." That is a band aid solution! [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] >> That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to >> Japanese or European cars. Source and proof to this statement about new cars being sold as used , this is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of business practice.
Charge - 14 Feb 2006 06:04 GMT > Source and proof to this statement about new cars being sold as used , > this is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge > fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of business practice You doubt that I was told this by a reliable source?
Who will prosecute "Japanese or European" car companies guilty of legally circumventing US laws for decades?
These are the same "Japanese or European" car companies guilty of marketing their cars to "dumb and stupid" Americans.
>> "That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to >> Japanese or European cars." That is a band aid solution! [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > this is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge > fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of business practice. SgtSilicon - 15 Feb 2006 23:54 GMT Trying to sell something as new that is really used would be a problem. That's not what they are talking about here. Here it is new cars being sold as used. And, in a technical aspect, if the cars actually are getting the miles put on the odometer by running the car and driving the wheels.... well then it really is used.
>> "That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to >> Japanese or European cars." That is a band aid solution! [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge >fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of business practice. Charge - 16 Feb 2006 00:30 GMT You are absolutely correct "SgtSilicon"!
My intention of raising the issue was to counter the bashing of GM.
I have had my fair share of GM problems.
> Trying to sell something as new that is really used would be a > problem. That's not what they are talking about here. Here it is new [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge >>fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of business practice. Glynn Edgar - 16 Feb 2006 16:50 GMT I don't know about other countries but here in Canada to be classified a vehicle as used their MUST be a transfer of ownership paper to an individual or business, even demonstrators are registered to the salesmen who are driving them who then in turn can claim their gas etc. as expense deductions when income tax time comes. No matter what the country of origin is of the manufacturer they are still subject to Canadian law if they sell a product here and are caught engaging in any illegal activity and I would assume the states would have the same laws.
> Trying to sell something as new that is really used would be a > problem. That's not what they are talking about here. Here it is new [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >>is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge >>fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of business practice. SgtSilicon - 17 Feb 2006 03:20 GMT That's why I said in a "technical aspect". As to the legal aspects, well, I'm no lawyer and am not about to claim knowledge I don't have.
>I don't know about other countries but here in Canada to be classified a >vehicle as used their MUST be a transfer of ownership paper to an individual [quoted text clipped - 65 lines] >>>is highly illegal and no company/manufacturer would risk the huge >>>fines/media fallout that would happen by this kind of business practice. John Horner - 14 Feb 2006 04:08 GMT > "That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to > Japanese or European cars." That is a band aid solution! [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Honda > automobiles taken off the market and sold as used. Sounds like an urban legend. Do you have any documentation of this?
John
Charge - 14 Feb 2006 06:14 GMT "Sounds like an urban legend.?"
"Do you have any documentation of this?"
Now what would you do if you had documentation of this?
There is very little either of us could do.
I repeated partially what I heard.
What company on this green earth would publish this about their products?
>> "That's probably why a lot of North American car buyers are switching to >> Japanese or European cars." That is a band aid solution! [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > John SgtSilicon - 15 Feb 2006 23:55 GMT Put up the proof please. Let us worry about what we may or may not do with it.
>"Sounds like an urban legend.?" > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >> >> John NickySantoro - 09 Feb 2006 14:40 GMT >> > The Tragedy of General Motors >> > http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used >to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them."" Again the old adages apply.. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me. "Once bitten, twice shy."
The American car buyer has been bitten, has been fooled, and is now quite "shy" about American cars.
GM and Ford are not going to get their credibility back based on promises. It will take several years of true quality and competitive pricing to regain the faith of the new car buying public. Personally, I don't think it will happen. While the management at GM and Ford plan for the next quarter, "Toshiro" is planning for the next decade. Detroit just has too many MBAs and too few Zora Arcus-Duntovs.
gosinn@gmail.com - 09 Feb 2006 15:17 GMT I have had many different brands of cars over the years I have also heard stories about cars I have used rental cars
Bad experience from years ago will sit in a long long time
There are so many good altenatives available so why try again something that was failure before
If you think about being alive in the future you better have a salesforce and production thinking about the future
A salesman trying to get off easy on a oneoff sale can hurt the company for years to come
The whole chain of events from wooing a first time buyer until he buys the next car is important
You have to know his dream and wishes and you should try to make sure his dreams come true and do not turn into a nightmare
He may not tell anyone about his dream but he is sure to tell anyone about a nightmare
Bassplayer12 - 09 Feb 2006 17:32 GMT snip
> The American car buyer has been bitten, has been fooled, and is now > quite "shy" about American cars. I was the owner of a 1990 Plymouth Grand Voyager for 13 years. Twice, it went to the shop for major transmission problems, under warranty. The transmission went a third time and I had to pay for the repairs. The 4th time, I said, enough! Sold it! After only a few years, the paint started to peel on the roof and the hood. When that happend, I started to notice the same problem on many other Chrysler vehicules. So, I have been fooled, as you say and, although Chrysler may build better vehicules today, I still will stay away for ever from them, out of retribution for what it cost me in repairs and maintenance while I owned the van.
> GM and Ford are not going to get their credibility back based on > promises. It will take several years of true quality and competitive > pricing to regain the faith of the new car buying public. Personally, > I don't think it will happen. While the management at GM and Ford plan > for the next quarter, "Toshiro" is planning for the next decade. > Detroit just has too many MBAs and too few Zora Arcus-Duntovs. Spam Hater - 09 Feb 2006 19:54 GMT > I was the owner of a 1990 Plymouth Grand Voyager for 13 years. > Twice, it went to the shop for major transmission problems, under warranty. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > retribution for what it cost me in repairs and maintenance while I owned the > van. Those early Chrysler vans were of questionable mechanical design and the early years of their 4SP transmission were troublesome. The vans advanced beyond using K car components and the 4SP transmission became quite reliable around '94. Also the early years of a new environmentally friendly paint were a learning curve for Chrysler and other car companies.
bassplayere12 - 09 Feb 2006 21:15 GMT SNIP
> Those early Chrysler vans were of questionable mechanical design and the > early years of their 4SP transmission were troublesome. > The vans advanced beyond using K car components and the 4SP transmission > became quite reliable around '94. > Also the early years of a new environmentally friendly paint were a > learning curve for Chrysler and other car companies. I am ready to understand that and give them the benefit of the doubt, although it was a too serious a problem and it should have been adressed sooner. As for the transmission problems, their are inexcusable, IMHO. I wish I remembered what my tranny shop mechanic said about Chrysler transmissions. He was shaking his head and, at the same time, was thankful to Chrisler for the amount of business that brought him.
gosinn@gmail.com - 09 Feb 2006 22:05 GMT Ford invented and patented a new technique of dipping the metal into paint rather than spraying paint on the metal it meant less problems and better paintjob etc gets a long lasting effect
Toyota immediately bought the patent and put it in all its factories all cars
Ford and GM only very slowly introduced the new technique in a few factories and a few luxury cars
Same happens over and over again Toyota fast with new ideas and it does not matter who makes them and very keen on making better cars Ford and GM slow and do not care much for improvements they very often invent themselves and others use better than they themselves
That is the base of the GM/Ford todays tragedies
It is just slowly happening and they should have started realising this years ago
Over a long period of time the quality difference becomes apparent
tc - 09 Feb 2006 23:12 GMT > Ford invented and patented a new technique of dipping the metal into > paint rather than spraying paint on the metal it meant less problems [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Over a long period of time the quality difference becomes apparent Very rare that i post to someone else bright ideas and from someone that has worked at gm and been in gm and toyota plants. gm has been as you call dipping cars into paint for about 25 years or so its called ELPO electro plate process that completey rustproofs the whole car body, there wasnt much difference in the process from plant to plant most processes are based on volume and line speed all things equal there isnt much difference in assembly, the toyota plants have there tools made overseas at a much lower cost and they are thowaways in my opinion. they can build a new set of tools and have them ready for production in a very short time because the cost is so much less remember assembly is the least of the car process. if i can buy all the components from japan and other asian places my cost will be much lower than any american co. it will force all the domestic plants to do the same, and then soon they will be just like the foreign makes, and much of the profit will be off shore and with it many american jobs
Spam Hater - 10 Feb 2006 08:36 GMT > the toyota plants have there tools made > overseas at a much lower cost and they are thowaways in my opinion. they [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > will be just like the foreign makes, and much of the profit will be off > shore and with it many american jobs Yet the fast selling Toyotas cost more than that GM junk.
Jim Higgins - 10 Feb 2006 10:39 GMT >> the toyota plants have there tools made >> overseas at a much lower cost and they are thowaways in my opinion. they [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> shore and with it many american jobs > Yet the fast selling Toyotas cost more than that GM junk. Toyota, Honda, etc. build cars that people want and GM has real trouble managing that. People also have very long memories about being badly burned by domestic automakers. *That* is another major problem for Detroit. As the last sentence or so in the article had a dealer saying that he doesn't believe that the people who got Detroit into failure mode are the ones who can save it.
SgtSilicon - 11 Feb 2006 18:58 GMT Just wondering Bub; did you ever learn how to end a sentence with a period?
>> Ford invented and patented a new technique of dipping the metal into >> paint rather than spraying paint on the metal it meant less problems [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] >will be just like the foreign makes, and much of the profit will be off >shore and with it many american jobs Charge - 11 Feb 2006 22:02 GMT This newsgroup is amazing with the diverse interests of it's posters.
There is a "SgtSilicon" that purports to have "secretspam" and "ihatespam" at the same time while he critiques other for their punctuation.
I enjoyed reading that post with or without "end a sentence with a period?"
I understood the message the author conveyed!
> Just wondering Bub; did you ever learn how to end a sentence with a > period? [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >>will be just like the foreign makes, and much of the profit will be off >>shore and with it many american jobs ( . period) SgtSilicon - 11 Feb 2006 23:45 GMT I do not "purport to have" secret spam. It is given as a fictitious user name, and likewise "ihatespam.net" is a fictitious domain. I'm sorry you don't have the reading comprehension skills to understand that without explanation.
Also, I'm all happy for you that you were so tickled pinky pleased with reading the big run on sentence of the century. I found it distracting and annoying and stopped reading the post after about 6 or so lines. Not because I couldn't understand it, but because it was distracting and annoying.
>This newsgroup is amazing with the diverse interests of it's posters. > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >>>will be just like the foreign makes, and much of the profit will be off >>>shore and with it many american jobs ( . period) Spam Hater - 09 Feb 2006 19:47 GMT > GM and Ford are not going to get their credibility back based on > promises. It will take several years of true quality and competitive > pricing to regain the faith of the new car buying public. Personally, > I don't think it will happen. While the management at GM and Ford plan > for the next quarter, "Toshiro" is planning for the next decade. > Detroit just has too many MBAs and too few Zora Arcus-Duntovs. Well said. I feel Ford has a chance, with the influx of new ideas from Volvo, Mazda etc. GM seems to be resisting new design ideas, their bean counters are simple importing new cars of questionable quality from Asia; such as Korea.
Both are stuck with loses on truck type SUVs and plum union contracts.
Spam Hater - 09 Feb 2006 19:42 GMT > "The gist of GM's sales problem is summed up by Don Freda, a suburban > New Yorker who has run an independent auto-repair shop for 52 years. > What, he is asked, do you think about the quality of GM's cars these > days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used > to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them."" I've been looking over the last few years. IMO GM's vehicles are of inferior design, in fact many aspects of them are very out dated.
John Horner - 13 Feb 2006 03:03 GMT >>>The Tragedy of General Motors >>>http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2006/02/20/8369111/index.htm [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > days? "They're very good," he answers. "They don't break like they used > to." Then, immediately, "But nobody will buy them."" Year ago Hyundai had a similar problem. Hyundai responded with an agressive warranty combined with a serious quality improvement efforts.
Hyundai sales and market share have been growing ever since.
I have been saying this for a long time and it remains true: If GM really does have it's quality act together now then they need to demonstrate it by dramatically improving their new vehicle warranty period. 7 years/100k miles would do the trick. This would add value to the vehicle rather than taking value away like the endless rebate and other promotions do.
John
Cool Jet - 13 Feb 2006 03:57 GMT > Year ago Hyundai had a similar problem. Hyundai responded with an > agressive warranty combined with a serious quality improvement efforts. > > Hyundai sales and market share have been growing ever since. John, the true measure of Hyundai's success or failure in this program is not sales or market share. It is profitability or losses at the bottom of the Income Statement and how it all shakes out on the Balance Sheet. Have a look at Hyundai's Balance Sheet and Income Statement John. Years of horrendous Operating Losses. Then let us know your opinion on how well Hyundai is doing. ;-) You just may find that their massive Deficit in Retained Earnings suggests that they are insolvent. (A nice way of saying bankrupt.) And don't be fooled by that big figure called "Capital Adjustements". Korean G.A.A.P. (Generally Accepted Accounting Principles) are not at all like U.S. standards. Daewoo being a case in point. Here's a link to Hyundai's Balance Sheet John. After reading it, give us a more informed opinion on how wise Hyundai was with their aggressive warranty. Increased Sales don't mean squat if you're losing money on every sale!
http://www.hyundaicorp.com/eng/ir/balance_sheet.asp
> I have been saying this for a long time and it remains true: If GM > really does have it's quality act together now then they need to > demonstrate it by dramatically improving their new vehicle warranty > period. 7 years/100k miles would do the trick. This would add value > to the vehicle rather than taking value away like the endless rebate and > other promotions do. Yah John, just like it added value to Hyundai. *nudge, nudge. wink, wink* You may have been saying it for a long time John, but that doesn't make it true. ;-)
gosinn@gmail.com - 13 Feb 2006 08:55 GMT You are right!
> Increased Sales don't mean squat > if you're losing money on every sale! GM is losing close to $1000 on every sale
Cool Jet - 13 Feb 2006 16:02 GMT > You are right! > > > Increased Sales don't mean squat > > if you're losing money on every sale! > > GM is losing close to $1000 on every sale gosinn, for once, it seems that you and I agree on something! *LOL*
John Horner - 14 Feb 2006 04:17 GMT Ah yes, now GM is a real example of a healthy corporation:
http://www.gm.com/company/investor_information/earnings/
" GM reported a loss of $8.6 billion, or $15.13 per share for 2005, compared to net income of $2.8 billion, or $4.92 per share in the year-ago period. Revenue was $192.6 billion in 2005, compared to $193.5 billion in 2004."
Yes, I have been saying for a long time that GM should put it's money where it's mouth is and improve it's warranties. I still maintain that doing so would make a great deal more sense than does putting thousands of dollars on cars and selling over 20% of factory output to rental car companies does.
GM keeps telling everyone to "trust me, our cars and trucks are much better made now". Why doesn't GM put it's money where it's mouth is?
If the quality is there, then longer warranties would cost GM next to nothing. I have yet to hear a solid counter argument to this point.
As far as Hyundai financials, it is almost impossible to separate out Hyundai's automotive business from the many other pieces of their business. It is possible, however, to see the rapid sales growth Hyundai has enjoyed.
GM boosters throwing stones at other company's financial reports is one of the funniest moves ever. You seem to think that you are better informed than I am. Enjoy your self-delusions.
John
John Horner - 14 Feb 2006 04:45 GMT > Here's a link to Hyundai's Balance Sheet John. > After reading it, give us a more informed opinion on how wise Hyundai > was with their aggressive warranty. Increased Sales don't mean squat > if you're losing money on every sale! GM is that master at losing money on every sale. Around $1000 per vehicle in 2005 being the most recent example.
> http://www.hyundaicorp.com/eng/ir/balance_sheet.asp Hey Cool Jet, you referenced the wrong company. Hyundai Corp isn't the Hyundai which makes automobiles. The company you provided a link to does shipping, natural resources, etc. I realize that you know next to nothing about the structure of Korean industry, so your mistake can be understood and forgiven.
By the way, none of the other characteristics you have creatively imagined about me in your various messages are correct, except that I am indeed male.
The Asian based automobile companies are kicking GM's butt. That is a fact you seem to find impossible to accept even though the evidence is plentiful.
John
Cool Jet - 15 Feb 2006 04:37 GMT > Hey Cool Jet, you referenced the wrong company. Hyundai Corp isn't the > Hyundai which makes automobiles. The company you provided a link to > does shipping, natural resources, etc. I realize that you know next to > nothing about the structure of Korean industry, so your mistake can be > understood and forgiven. John, you have verified my suspicions that you are quite the dumbass. Hyundai Corp is indeed the parent of the auto maker. Do your homework. Send them an email and ask them. ;-) It took you over a day to respond to my post. Surely, you could have researched your information better during that time! I was once their corporate banker. ;-)
> By the way, none of the other characteristics you have creatively > imagined about me in your various messages are correct, except that I am > indeed male. John, believe me, I have your number and its right on the money. You are an ill-informed buffoon.
> The Asian based automobile companies are kicking GM's butt. That is a > fact you seem to find impossible to accept even though the evidence is > plentiful. Proof again that you don't know the difference between sales and profit. Do your homework John. Take a Basic Ecenomics course and learn how to read a financial statement. Oh right - it's not your style to deal with factual information. Only idle speculation. lame John. Really lame! ;-)
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 16 Feb 2006 21:38 GMT Since the automotive division of Hyundai Corp. makes up about 1% of total sales of the parent company, I'd say the income statement for Hyundai Corp. is meaningless for this discussion. Why do you look at Hyundai Motor's income statement and get back to us. Looks pretty healthy to me:
http://ir.hyundai-motor.com/eng/index.html
$7.60 earnings per share. $1.7 billion net income in 2004 on $27 billion in total sales. Quite a bit better than GM, I'd say.
Cool Jet - 17 Feb 2006 14:25 GMT > Since the automotive division of Hyundai Corp. makes up about 1% of > total sales of the parent company, I'd say the income statement for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > $7.60 earnings per share. $1.7 billion net income in 2004 on $27 > billion in total sales. Quite a bit better than GM, I'd say. chrisvillar, take it from a corporate banker, if the ultimate parent of of any wholly-owned subsidiary is financially unstable, so too is the wholly-owned subsidiary. Any subsidiary can be made to look profitable through inter-company pricing and interest-free intercompany loans/debentures. But the bottom line is that all/any subsidiaries of an insolvent company are, in essence, also insolvent. Once again, I would refer you to the conglomerate - Daewoo Corporation. Their story says it all. They were a very diverse company and the "Motors Division" was only a small piece of the puzzle. Their bottom line was that the parent and subsidiaries were all considered insolvent, after removing the "smoke and mirrors".
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 17:01 GMT > chrisvillar, take it from a corporate banker, if the ultimate parent of > of any wholly-owned subsidiary is financially unstable, so too is the > wholly-owned subsidiary. Are we talking about financial stability or operating efficiency?
> Any subsidiary can be made to look profitable > through inter-company pricing and interest-free intercompany [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > parent and subsidiaries were all considered insolvent, after removing > the "smoke and mirrors". Three or four messages ago you presented the finacials of Hyundai to support your analysis of the failure of Hyundai Motors, even though the motor division makes up about 1% of the sales of the parent company. But now when we drill down to the specific financials for Hyundai Motors, which doesn't support your analysis, financials are all smoke and mirrors.
Cool Jet - 22 Feb 2006 04:19 GMT > > chrisvillar, take it from a corporate banker, if the ultimate parent of > > of any wholly-owned subsidiary is financially unstable, so too is the > > wholly-owned subsidiary. > > Are we talking about financial stability or operating efficiency? Uhhh chrisvillar, I could swear that the comment above your question says (and I'll quote!) "financially unstable". I trust that answers your question again! ;-)
> > Any subsidiary can be made to look profitable > > through inter-company pricing and interest-free intercompany [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Motors, which doesn't support your analysis, financials are all smoke > and mirrors. *shaking head in disbelief* Uhh chrisvillar, I don't have a braille copy of my previous post, but I will quote from it once again, "chrisvillar, take it from a corporate banker, if the ultimate parent of any wholly-owned subsidiary is financially unstable, so too is the wholly-owned subsidiary." chrisvillar, that's a pretty straightforward statement, but let me try getting through to you another way - If the parent is insolvent, the results for Hyundai Motors mean nothing. Has the light come on yet chrisvillar? ;-)
Cool Jet - 17 Feb 2006 18:50 GMT > $7.60 earnings per share. $1.7 billion net income in 2004 on $27 > billion in total sales. Quite a bit better than GM, I'd say. P.S. chrisvillar, I'm not sure what you're reading, but on Page 34 of the Report, Total Sales for 2004 are reported at $ 50 Billion U.S., not $ 27 Billion and on Page 35, Net (after Tax) Income was reported at $ 1.6 Billion U.S., not $ 1.7 Billion U.S.
Earnings per share are reported at $ 7.09 U.S. and $ 7.07 per fully diluted share.
But the aforementioned results are altogether questionable, when you read the closing remarks of the auditors, found on Page 32 of the Financial Report. This is a direct copy:
"Accounting principles and auditing standards and their application in practice vary among countries. The accompanying financial statements are not intended to present the financial position, results of operations and cash flows in accordance with accounting principles and practices generally accepted in countries other than the Republic of Korea. In addition, the procedures and practices utilized in the Republic of Korea to audit such financial statements may differ from those generally accepted and applied in other countries. Accordingly, this report and the accompanying financial statements are for use by those knowledgeable about Korean accounting procedures and auditing standards and their application in practice."
If those comments don't cause you concern, they should, because Korea is infamous for their, shall we say, "creative accounting". ;-)
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 21 Feb 2006 18:18 GMT > > $7.60 earnings per share. $1.7 billion net income in 2004 on $27 > > billion in total sales. Quite a bit better than GM, I'd say. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > 27 Billion and on Page 35, Net (after Tax) Income was reported at $ > 1.6 Billion U.S., not $ 1.7 Billion U.S. Man, I didn't dive into the 65 pager. I'm just looking at the non-consolidated statement of income for the year 2004 on the website. It shows the numbers I quoted above.
> Earnings per share are reported at $ 7.09 U.S. and $ 7.07 per fully > diluted share. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > If those comments don't cause you concern, they should, because Korea > is infamous for their, shall we say, "creative accounting". ;-) Aren't you the same person who started this whole thing by referencing the financial statements of Hyundai Corp.? Are korean financials, and financial statements in general, reliable or not? You started this thing.
Cool Jet - 22 Feb 2006 04:37 GMT > > chrisvillar, I'm not sure what you're reading, but on Page 34 of the > > Report, Total Sales for 2004 are reported at $ 50 Billion U.S., not $ [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > non-consolidated statement of income for the year 2004 on the website. > It shows the numbers I quoted above. No need to apologize for your oversight in not delving into the full information on the link "you" provided chrisvillar. Those unfamiliar with how to properly read and assess financial results often make that mistake.
> Aren't you the same person who started this whole thing by referencing > the financial statements of Hyundai Corp.? Are korean financials, and > financial statements in general, reliable or not? No chrisvillar, they are not reliable. Once again, you appear not to have read the comments that I already made in this regard. If I may quote but again chrisvillar, I directed you to read the closing remarks of the auditors, found on Page 32 of the Financial Report. This is a direct copy from the very financial statements that "you" provided (Didn't you read them being sending us the link?) for Hyundai Motors: "Accounting principles and auditing standards and their application in practice vary among countries. The accompanying financial statements are not intended to present the financial position, results of operations and cash flows in accordance with accounting principles and practices generally accepted in countries other than the Republic of Korea. In addition, the procedures and practices utilized in the Republic of Korea to audit such financial statements may differ from those generally accepted and applied in other countries. Accordingly, this report and the accompanying financial statements are for use by those knowledgeable about Korean accounting procedures and auditing standards and their application in practice."
> You started this thing. What thing is that chrisvillar? The thing of trying to get someone to delve into Hyundai Motors' financial statements before proclaiming how well they are doing? Is telling the truth "the thing" that you say I started? Shame on me for wanting people to know the truth chrisvillar. ;-) *still shaking head in disbelief*
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 23 Feb 2006 04:31 GMT > > Aren't you the same person who started this whole thing by referencing > > the financial statements of Hyundai Corp.? Are korean financials, and > > financial statements in general, reliable or not? > > No chrisvillar, they are not reliable. Then let's cut through all your other BS and get to the point. If financials aren't reliable, why did you open this can of worms and use the financial statements of Hyundai Corp. to support a position on the failure of Hyundai Motors in the US?
> Once again, you appear not to > have read the comments that I already made in this regard. I read 'em. But your talking out of both sides of your mouth so I just wanted to get all of this straight so I could nail you down. Turns out it's like nailing down jello. "Financials are unreliable" and then "Look at the financials of Hyundai Corp., they are insolvent"
> If I may > quote but again chrisvillar, I directed you to read the closing remarks [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > accounting procedures and auditing standards and their application in > practice." So you have a point? All financial statements of multinational corporations have similar explanations of the GAAP standards that apply.
> > You started this thing. > > What thing is that chrisvillar? The thing of trying to get someone to > delve into Hyundai Motors' financial statements before proclaiming how > well they are doing? Is telling the truth "the thing" that you say I > started? Shame on me for wanting people to know the truth chrisvillar. The thing that you started was pointing to the financial statements of Hyundai Corp. as if they somehow indicated that Hyundai Motor operations were innefficient and losing money. Just because a conglomerate is insolvent does not mean that it has no assets at all. So far I haven't seen any evidence that Hyundai Motors is anything but a success. You haven't presented any evidence other than to try to cast doubt on the financials of Hyundai Motors. Are they playing a shell game with the financials, maybe, maybe not. I think that I hear you now saying that you can't tell either. Well that is huge backpedalling from your initial position that Hyundai Motors was losing money on sales of automobiles.
Cool Jet - 24 Feb 2006 07:05 GMT chrisvillar@hotmail.com only opened his mouth long enough to switch feet when he wrote:
> Then let's cut through all your other BS and get to the point. If > financials aren't reliable, why did you open this can of worms and use > the financial statements of Hyundai Corp. to support a position on the > failure of Hyundai Motors in the US? chrisvillar, in the financial world, we have an expression to describe people like you - thicker than whale sh.t! First of all, in response to your question: "Are korean financials...reliable or not?", I responded that they are not reliable. That goes for Hyundai Corp. and its many subsidiaries. It's a fact Chris. Why did you ask, if you didn't want to hear the answer?
> I read 'em. But clearly didn't understand 'em!
> But your talking out of both sides of your mouth so I just > wanted to get all of this straight so I could nail you down. chrisvillar, it's impossible for someone like yourself with absolutely no financial knowledge to nail down anyone with business acumen because you simply don't appear to have a clue about the subject matter. ;-)
> Turns out > it's like nailing down jello. "Financials are unreliable" and then > "Look at the financials of Hyundai Corp., they are insolvent" No chrisvillar. It's all quite straightforward. You're just too thick to realize it. ;-) The point that you seem to be missing is that Hyundai Corp's actual results would be far worse than their already poor results as reported. Read my lips chrisvillar - Korean Financial Reporting falls well short of North American reporting Standards. The company's own notes to their financials told you that! And Hyundai Motors financials are totally controlled and manipulated by the parent, rendering them meaningless for analytical purposes. Is it sinking in yet chrisvillar?
> > What thing is that chrisvillar? The thing of trying to get someone to > > delve into Hyundai Motors' financial statements before proclaiming how [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > operations were innefficient and losing money. Just because a > conglomerate is insolvent does not mean that it has no assets at all. I never once said that an insolvent conglomerate "has no assets at all". You're writing fiction now chrisvillar.
> So far I haven't seen any evidence that Hyundai Motors is anything but > a success. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink! ;-)
> You haven't presented any evidence other than to try to > cast doubt on the financials of Hyundai Motors. Are they playing a > shell game with the financials, maybe, maybe not. I think that I hear > you now saying that you can't tell either. If that's what you're hearing chrisvillar, you're clearly not listening to me. *LOL* Your comments are now verging on the absurd. No need to become hysterical chrisvillar. You're not alone. A lot of people lack the training to read financial statements. Just take a course chrisvillar, then it will all become clear. A lot of people lack common sense chrisvillar, but sadly, that's not something you can acquire. You either have it or you don't. Sorry, I can't help you there. There's no course for common sense. ;-)
> Well that is huge > backpedalling from your initial position that Hyundai Motors was losing > money on sales of automobiles. You are clearly reading someone elses comments, probably your own to make such an inaccurate comment. But then, you've been making inaccurate and silly comments since you first opened your mouth. Your comments clearly point out that you have no business training or understanding whatsoever and that you totally lack the tiniest iota of common sense. And worse, you don't seem to know when you're in way over your head. Stop making a fool of yourself chrisvillar and join a thread or news group where you have something to contribute. I hate seeing someone so utterly embarrass themselves by their lack of knowledge of the subject matter.
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 24 Feb 2006 15:13 GMT I love doing this to people. 9 times out of 10 when people get caught saying something dumb they will wiggle and wiggle and dig a deeper and deeper hole in order to save face instead of just admitting they aren't perfect. I'll tell you what. Since you can't remember saying anything contradictory, I will quote your exact words in previous posts to highlight the contradictions.
Here we go:
> First of all, in response to > your question: "Are korean financials...reliable or not?", I responded > that they are not reliable. That goes for Hyundai Corp. and its many > subsidiaries. It's a fact Chris. Why did you ask, if you didn't want to > hear the answer? I did want to hear the answer. Not because I don't have my own opintions, because hearing you answer highlights your inconsistency. If they are unreliable, then why did you previously say:
"the true measure of Hyundai's success or failure in this program is not sales or market share. It is profitability or losses at the bottom of the Income Statement and how it all shakes out on the Balance
Sheet"
Why would you ask someone to look at a balance sheet that is unreliable?
> The point that you seem to be missing is that > Hyundai Corp's actual results would be far worse than their already [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > rendering them meaningless for analytical purposes. Is it sinking in > yet chrisvillar? HMMM, meaningless for analytical purposes. And yet previously you stated:
"Here's a link to Hyundai's Balance Sheet John. After reading it, give us a more informed opinion on how wise Hyundai was with their aggressive warranty."
Why should "John" use Hyundai's balance sheet to form an opinion if that balance sheet is "meaningless for analytical purposes."
> I never once said that an insolvent conglomerate "has no assets at > all". You're writing fiction now chrisvillar. But you implied it very strongly. You asked the world to look at the financial statements of a money losing parent company. The parent company owns Hyundai Motors which contributes about 1% of the total sales of the parent company. But somehow you jump from the financial statements of Hyundai Corp. to the conclustion that:
"[Hyundai Motors is] losing money on every sale!"
Are you not saying that Hyundai Motors is a liability rather than an asset JUST because the parent company is losing money on their overall operations?
> > So far I haven't seen any evidence that Hyundai Motors is anything but > > a success. > > You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink! ;-) You haven't presented any evidence. The financials for Hyundai Motors look very strong. All you've been able to successfully point out is that those financials can't be compared directly to a US company using US G.A.A.P. And you've also pointed out the obvious possibility that Hyundai Corp. MIGHT be playing a shell game with their accounting to make Hyundai Motors look more profitable than it is. But that's not evidence, it's a hunch.
> > Well that is huge > > backpedalling from your initial position that Hyundai Motors was losing > > money on sales of automobiles. > > You are clearly reading someone elses comments, probably your own to > make such an inaccurate comment. Once again, let me quote your exact words:
"Here's a link to Hyundai's Balance Sheet John. After reading it, give us a more informed opinion on how wise Hyundai was with their aggressive warranty. Increased Sales don't mean squat if you're losing money on every sale!"
Not only did you say they were losing money on sales of autos, you said they were losing money on EVERY sale. Quite a bold and definitive statement. No room for doubt about what you meant.
Cool Jet - 24 Feb 2006 20:56 GMT chrisvillar@hotmail.com was so far behind that he thought he was winning the race and he actually patted himself on the back when he wrote:
> snip meandering ramblings chrisvillar, there is nothing more frustrating for me than to win every count of an argument/disagreement/discussion, but to have a sparring partner so delusional that they think they are winning. After a while, it becomes pointless to continue the discussion. It occurs to me that you are either totally out of touch with reality or you have someone beside you, egging you on and trying to convince you that you know what you are talking about. Although, for them to believe that, they would actually have to be dumber than you. Which is highly improbable! You seem completely devoid of any analytical reasoning ability, so you shoot back rambling, senseless, incomprehensible comments. I truly enjoy sparring with a worthy opponent, but you stopped making sense quite some time ago. In a battle of wits, you are completely unarmed. You seem to totally lack common sense. For the aforementioned reasons, I choose to discontinue responding to your silly comments, because you are simply wasting my time. You refuse to listen and learn. Sad really. It is now official - you are the 1st person I have ever felt it necessary to killfile. *PLONK*
chrisvillar@hotmail.com - 24 Feb 2006 22:43 GMT > It is now official - you are the 1st person I have ever felt it > necessary to killfile. *PLONK* Good to finally catch you at a loss for words. I'm not too worried about whether you think you won an argument or not. Anybody else observing this thread will form their own opinion about which one of us was making any sense at all. In a comparison between the two of us, I'm very comfortable with how I look.
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