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Car Forum / GMC Cars / April 2006

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95 Park ave Ultra Torque Conv Clutch (Herky Jerky status report)

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Ed - 31 Mar 2006 19:17 GMT

I've about reached the end of the line in pursuing engine misses as
the cause of the
shudder problem (see prev posts on Herky Jerky). Things done in this
regard
include:

Plugs & wires replaced
Compression check
Fuel pressure regulator replaced
Fuel filter replaced
Coil packs replaced (originals later reinstalled)
Mass air flow sensor
Coolant temperature sensor
Throttle position sensor
EGR valve voltages checked
EGR valve moves freely over range
No scan codes, pending or otherwise

Yet, at freeway speeds and sometimes even on surface streets at 30-40
mph the car on occasion
gives me the shudder, which I've dubbed the Herky Jerky. Since tapping
the brake while it's doing
it makes it stop I know the TCC is involved, and I've now come back
(again) to thinking the TCC
is the cause rather than just responding to engine misses.

Yesterday I logged onto AllData and looked up the TCC. First, I found
an information bulletin
saying there had been a change in the solenoid control. If I
understand it correctly, a separate solenoid
called the PWM solenoid was introduced, and furthermore if the wrong
solenoid was used the shudder
would result. I then looked up the repair info on replacing these
solenoids. What I learned was they are
located behind a side cover plate that is bolted to the left side of
the transaxle assembly. AllData says it's
a 3.1 hour job to replace the solenoids.

The question is now whether to have this work done ore not. We are in
the process of buying a new car
since my wife has totally lost confidence in the PA. I would like to
sell it rather than  take
a beating  in a trade-in, but cannot bring myself to pass off a car
with a problem like this to an unsuspecting
individual. That means I should have it fixed, since the $300-400
(guessing) would still net more
from a sale than on a trade .

But here's another problem. Several months ago the car started to spot
the
garage floor with tranny fluid. I took it to a shop and they tightened
the side plate (presumably the one I
now know to hide the TCC solenoids). This stopped the leak. However,
from the AllData diagrams
I now know that there shouldn't be any fluid behind that cover to
leak! I now assume it's the front seal that
is leaking, and the cavity behind the side cover is probably now full
of tranny fluid. If so, that's probably
why the TCC solenoids are failing. I haven't gone back to the tranny
shop yet to quiz them on this theory,
but my guess is when I do they will tell me I'm right and the tranny
will have to come out to fix the seal,
and suddenly it's a $1200 job instead of $300-400. That would probably
tip me in favor of letting a
dealer steal it from me on a trade-in.

So, are there any tranny aficionados listening in that can confirm or
deny any of this?

TIA

Ed
Shep - 31 Mar 2006 21:05 GMT
All this could have been avoided by having it scanned by a trans tech with a
bi directional trans scanner that can command tcc and check for slippage
errors to confirm if in fact the the or another internal control is at
fault.

> I've about reached the end of the line in pursuing engine misses as the
> cause of the
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
>
> Ed
Ed - 31 Mar 2006 23:46 GMT

Thanks, Shep. Actually, I took the car to a tranny first, many months
ago, because
it seemed like a tranny problem. The fellow drove the car and couldn't
get it to exhibit the
problem. That's when I started posting here and picked up on the
engine miss
as the causative issue. Scanners have been put on the car many times
since, including at
the dealer, an independent shop, and myself. Only once has a code ever
been seen, and that
was after the independent put the wrong mass air flow sensor on it.

I do plan to take it back to the tranny shop, but let me ask you
something.
Will the scanner you describe give any indication of what's wrong
WHILE THE PROBLEM IS NOT BEING EXHIBITED?    For understandably
reasons these
fellows don't want to spend an hour or more driving around hoping it
will do it.

Ed

> All this could have been avoided by having it scanned by a trans
> tech with a bi directional trans scanner that can command tcc and
> check for slippage errors to confirm if in fact the the or another
> internal control is at fault.
Shep - 01 Apr 2006 01:01 GMT
If the tcc is slipping or seta a history code for a tcc slippage error it
may or may not be in history the right scanner in the hands of a pro is the
key here plus the history any and symptoms, rmember he can command lock up
at any time and see what happens. Also any misfire under load generated by a
lean mixture, bad injector or ign problem will mock a tcc slippage conditio.
This can be a tough diagnosis without it doing it regularly, usually hot, up
a grade just before downshift is the best condition to generate the problem.

> Thanks, Shep. Actually, I took the car to a tranny first, many months ago,
> because
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>> slippage errors to confirm if in fact the the or another internal control
>> is at fault.
Ed - 01 Apr 2006 19:06 GMT

Shep,

Thanks again.

Any comment on the oil leak I mentioned? I.e., is the cavity
behind the side cover likely to be full of tranny fluid by now and
fouling the
TCC solenoids? If so, wouldn't that become a primary suspect in the
shudder problem?

Also, can the front seal be replaced by just removing the side cover,
or is
removal of the transaxle required?

Ed

> If the tcc is slipping or seta a history code for a tcc slippage
> error it may or may not be in history the right scanner in the hands
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> diagnosis without it doing it regularly, usually hot, up a grade
> just before downshift is the best condition to generate the problem.
Shep - 01 Apr 2006 19:24 GMT
The fluid in the side cover is not an issue relative to the solenoids.
Convertor seal requires trans removal.

> Shep,
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>> regularly, usually hot, up a grade just before downshift is the best
>> condition to generate the problem.
Ed - 02 Apr 2006 00:46 GMT

Shep,

One final question. Well, maybe the final one!

If this is indeed a TCC problem, as opposed to an engine miss problem,
is it likely
to be a problem with the solenoids (I believe there are 3 involved,
judging from
the AllData diagram), or is it more likely to be the clutch itself?

TIA

Ed

> The fluid in the side cover is not an issue relative to the
> solenoids. Convertor seal requires trans removal.
Shep - 02 Apr 2006 00:58 GMT
Ed these solenoids are on off units, unless the pressure is being lost
around the tcc engagement valve I don't believe the solenoid itself is going
to cause this. A scan with a trans function scanner can eliminate guess work
here as the tcc can be commanded and slippage can be observed. I know I
repeated myself but this is the proper procedure here.

> Shep,
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>> The fluid in the side cover is not an issue relative to the solenoids.
>> Convertor seal requires trans removal.
scrapir - 02 Apr 2006 16:47 GMT
There should be oil getting into the side cover where the solenoid is. The
front seal or also called the converter seal will need the trans out to be
replaced. At that point in time I would suggest going through the hole
trans. If you have one seal thats bad there are others that arn't far
behind.
 
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