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Car Forum / GMC Cars / April 2006

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What if.....

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toycars26@hotmail.com - 06 Apr 2006 21:41 GMT
I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon
be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for
this. I think Toyota could teach those guys a thing or two about
building reliable cars. I come from a Toyota family so I'm a *bit*
biased. If Toyota does buy GM, I might even consider buying a (new) GM
product for every day transport. I know this will most likely start a
flamewar, but I'm just stating my opinion.
badgolferman - 06 Apr 2006 23:00 GMT
> I know this will most likely start a
> flamewar

I think this is the main point of your post.
Bassplayer12 - 06 Apr 2006 23:12 GMT
>I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon
> be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for
> this. I think Toyota could teach those guys a thing or two about
> building reliable cars. I come from a Toyota family so I'm a *bit*

They DO know how to buid a reliable car. Employee salaries and benefits and
keeping
stockholders happy have forced the North American car manufacturers to lower
a lot
of things, including quality.
Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a meeting, Ford
offered to make available
to them a car that could go 20 years trouble free. They said NO!!! Profits
are more important than anything else.
badgolferman - 06 Apr 2006 23:27 GMT
> Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a meeting,
> Ford offered to make available to them a car that could go 20 years
> trouble free. They said NO!!! Profits are more important than
> anything else.

I've heard this before and find it hard to believe.
Mike Hunter - 06 Apr 2006 23:32 GMT
Mmmmmm.I wonder why?   LOL

mike hunt

>> Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a meeting,
>> Ford offered to make available to them a car that could go 20 years
>> trouble free. They said NO!!! Profits are more important than
>> anything else.
>
> I've heard this before and find it hard to believe.
Bassplayer12 - 07 Apr 2006 12:38 GMT
>> Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a meeting,
>> Ford offered to make available to them a car that could go 20 years
>> trouble free. They said NO!!! Profits are more important than
>> anything else.
>
> I've heard this before and find it hard to believe.

I know it is but my friend was a the meeting and reported exactly what was
discussed.
badgolferman - 07 Apr 2006 12:58 GMT
Bassplayer12, 4/7/2006, 7:38:16 AM,
<IasZf.56259$VV4.999878@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:

> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a
> > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I know it is but my friend was a the meeting and reported exactly
> what was discussed.

No, my point is this has been repeated by many other people and I doubt
they were in the same meeting as your friend.  Is it possible your
friend is repeating something he heard from other people...?  After all
it does make a good story.

Signature

"Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it." ~
Flannery O'Connor

Bassplayer12 - 07 Apr 2006 13:12 GMT
>> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a
>> > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> friend is repeating something he heard from other people...?  After all
> it does make a good story.

It was repeated by other people and probably became a legend or an urban
myth in some ways many other story. I see your point.
My friend assured me it was true. He told me the story about 15 years ago
and was very serious when telling it.
He was a Ford dealer and went to a Ford dealer meeting. The Ford brass did
indeed proposed to build a car that could last 20 years. They all said NO!
Glen has passed away a couple of years ago so, I can't ask him for the
details.
Jane - 07 Apr 2006 14:51 GMT
>>> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a
>>> > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Glen has passed away a couple of years ago so, I can't ask him for the
> details.

Could be an urban myth...BUT...they always said that GM sold Fridgidaire all
those years ago because they were too reliable and never broke down, hence
not enough turn-over.  That could well be a myth, too, so don't shoot the
messenger!

Jane
robandjj@hotmail.com - 07 Apr 2006 17:10 GMT
JUST BUY A TOYOTA AND IT WILL LAST 20 YEARS!!!!!!!!

> >>> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a
> >>> > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> Jane
SgtSilicon - 08 Apr 2006 01:37 GMT
Your comments, when they constantly promote Toyota are unwelcome here.
Not only are you "against" the brand for which this group is for, you
noticeably promote Toyota.

As an aside, I wonder if Toyota doesn't pay people to post "average
Joe" stuff all over the internet as part of a modern marketing
strategy.  Before anyone laughs or says conspiracy nut, be aware that
such kinds of things actually have been reported as happening.

>JUST BUY A TOYOTA AND IT WILL LAST 20 YEARS!!!!!!!!
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>>
>> Jane
Bonehenge - 08 Apr 2006 01:44 GMT
>As an aside, I wonder if Toyota doesn't pay people to post "average
>Joe" stuff all over the internet as part of a modern marketing
>strategy.  Before anyone laughs or says conspiracy nut, be aware that
>such kinds of things actually have been reported as happening.

I'd take the money with a totally clear conscience.

My "average Joe" Toyotas have been great, including my 300,000 mile
22R powered 1985 pickup.

Thanks for the lead-in...
Travis King - 08 Apr 2006 03:33 GMT
>>>> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a
>>>> > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Jane

I have a GM, (Pontiac 6000) and it's 18 years.  It's getting lots of
problems however, with relatively low miles for its age - 124,000.  I don't
know how much longer I'll be keeping it.  (My guess is less than a year.)  I
was looking at a Camry, but the one I was looking at, somebody else bought
it.
Mike Marlow - 07 Apr 2006 20:43 GMT
> >> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a
> >> > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> Glen has passed away a couple of years ago so, I can't ask him for the
> details.

Nothing about these kinds of stories makes any sense.  Take a second to
think about it.  Why would Ford want to make a car that will last 20 years?
To help their own parts business?  These stories always have a "friend" who
was there and, and, and..., but the fact remains that it's not even
possible, let alone probable.  It's just like the miracle carburetor that
some wingnut supposedly developed which gave 80 mpg out of the average V-8,
and GM purchased the rights to it and put it on a shelf.

Now think about it from this perspective.  What machine in the price range
of a car, can possibly go 20 years trouble free?  It's a machine.  It's
subject to wear and fatigue.  Do you really think Ford is not aware of the
fact that things begin wearing out the moment they begin operating?

I believe it might have been possible for Ford to have asked it's dealers a
philosophical question that went along the lines of "do you want us to build
a car that lasts 20 years, or do you want the continued service and parts
business?", which is quite different from offering to build a car that can
really last 20 years.  Context is everything.  BTW - who was the "Ford" that
asked this question?  Ford Marketing?  Ford Service/Parts?  Ford Sales?  It
is quite meaningless to say "Ford offered...".

Signature

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

larry - 07 Apr 2006 21:42 GMT
>Now think about it from this perspective.  What machine in the price range
>of a car, can possibly go 20 years trouble free?  It's a machine.  It's
>subject to wear and fatigue.  Do you really think Ford is not aware of the
>fact that things begin wearing out the moment they begin operating?

Any Engineer worth his pocketprotector can design a car that will last
20yrs trouble free, just like any 3rd yr. Engineering STUDENT can
design an 80mpg carb.
Oh, but wait... did you want that carb to work on a cold morning?  AND
still get you up a hill?  Oh, and you want to run full speed to the
convenience store and shut off the motor? And THEN start it up in 2
minutes and it NOT blow up??
Everything is a tradeoff.  80mpg vs. vaporlock/explosion?  80mpg vs.
getting passed by a mo-ped??  Tradeoffs.

So a 20yr troublefree car is easy.  BUT you might hafta not get a lotta
performance.  It might handle like a dump truck -- beinz it's gonna
weigh about the same.  With brakes off a 747, it'll stop real well, but
the weight on them tires will play h::ll with your mileage.  Etc.

Everything's a tradeoff.

Anyone that believes ANY word uttered by ANYone that works or has
worked at a dealership is gonna ultimately be disappointed.
Bonehenge - 07 Apr 2006 22:32 GMT
>Any Engineer worth his pocketprotector can design a car that will last
>20yrs trouble free, just like any 3rd yr. Engineering STUDENT can
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>minutes and it NOT blow up??
>Everything is a tradeoff.  80mpg vs. vaporlock/explosion?  

Maybe that's why the only things still made with carbs have lawnmower
blades under them or are raced in circles using 60's pickup truck
suspensions?  <G>

There's performance, and then there's PERFORMANCE...

Market based fuel prices would easily drive the average driver toward
the good performance they need vs. 350 HP to drive to 7-Eleven that
cheap gas encourages.
Edwin Pawlowski - 08 Apr 2006 04:00 GMT
"Bassplayer12" <perettij@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message

>> I've heard this before and find it hard to believe.
>
> I know it is but my friend was a the meeting and reported exactly what was
> discussed.

This was the same meeting where the new carburetor was also shown that got
60 mpg on any engine. The oil companies bought it up and hide it.   Right
next to the car that runs on water if you put these two little pills in the
gas tank.
Mike Marlow - 08 Apr 2006 12:23 GMT
> "Bassplayer12" <perettij@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> next to the car that runs on water if you put these two little pills in the
> gas tank.

You  forgot the magnet that you have to put around the fuel lines also - the
pills don't work if the molecules aren't aligned in the proper polarity.

Signature

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

Bonehenge - 08 Apr 2006 13:02 GMT
>You  forgot the magnet that you have to put around the fuel lines also - the
>pills don't work if the molecules aren't aligned in the proper polarity.

Don't forget that the shiny side of the foil goes out when making the
hat.

Or is that in?
Mike Marlow - 08 Apr 2006 20:44 GMT
> >You  forgot the magnet that you have to put around the fuel lines also - the
> >pills don't work if the molecules aren't aligned in the proper polarity.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Or is that in?

I think it depends on whether you're an introvert or an extrovert.

Signature

-Mike-
mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net

brxsep - 09 Apr 2006 00:38 GMT
Let me put a twist on this.  With GM selling their majority interest in
GMAC, they will have over 20 BILLION in cash. Now, just applying a
little Economic 101, what does business due when the market is full and
has a lot of cash?  Start buying.  So, lets just say GM takes those
dollars and buys a controlling interest in Toyota or Hunda.

Now, they have a power house to combine Toyota and GM dealers together
to either up or down sell to Joe off the street.  The question then
becomes, does GM need a Pontiac, GMC, Buick or Saturn?  Yes, one can
picture all four brands going away (I am a die in the wool converted
Pontiac Trans Am man for over 30 years  so it pains me to think about
it).

GM would expand the line of Toyota trucks, SUVs and more smaller line
of cars.  

My two cents.
Jim Higgins - 09 Apr 2006 01:13 GMT
> Let me put a twist on this.  With GM selling their majority interest in
> GMAC, they will have over 20 BILLION in cash. Now, just applying a
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> My two cents.

Highly unlikely scenario.  GM doesn't have the capability to even attempt to
buy Toyota, let alone actually do it.  GM is rotting from the inside out and
will probably be in bankruptcy by years end and certainly by the contract
talks in '07.  I just do not believe that GM has the vision, intelligence
and will to really change their mindset that builds cars that the public
doesn't care to buy-that is one reason their market share keeps declining.
The fleet sales hide just how bad GM's decline is because they hide an even
bigger decline in "regular" sales.  Then there are the many, many ticked off
ex-GM owners that have been badly burned by poor customer service and poor
engineering.  We have very, very long memories of how we were screwed by GM
and its payback time.  GM is going down.
Charles U' Farley - 12 Apr 2006 00:15 GMT
That's only because you have more intelligence than a turnip. People with
turnip-level intelligence often believe that story.

>> Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a meeting,
>> Ford offered to make available to them a car that could go 20 years
>> trouble free. They said NO!!! Profits are more important than
>> anything else.
>
> I've heard this before and find it hard to believe.
Hachiroku - 07 Apr 2006 18:11 GMT
> >I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon
>> be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> and keeping
> stockholders happy....

This is the main problem. They are trying to keep the stockholders happy by
keeping costs down. This leads to firing worker (which, with all the
benefits of being fired, does NOT lower costs...) and by cheapening the
product.

As Toyota has learned, the BEST way to make a profit is by making a product
people WANT to buy, and buy them up as fast as they are made! And they have
found people are willing to pay a premium for a car they can DRIVE on the
weekends instead of opening the hood every Saturday. Switches that don't
feel like they are going to fall off in you hand.

And, by the very nature of their design, due to being from Japan where fuel
costs are much higher, very good economy.

I for one would be willing to get less for a lower price, like my old
Corollas, rather than pay a lower price for a car that appears to be
full-featured, but made with the cheapest components possible. Quality over
quantity. They could make a Cavalier (or, Cobalt I think it is now) that
would last as long as any Corolla, without the 'blings' and that would suit
me just fine. As long as it didn't FEEL cheap

My $0.02.
alfredB18@prodigy.net - 06 Apr 2006 23:41 GMT
> I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon
> be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> product for every day transport. I know this will most likely start a
> flamewar, but I'm just stating my opinion.

Whoa.  You seem to think it is INEVITABLE that GM will just find its
savior in the form of another company and all will live happily ever
after.

Don't necessarily bet that Toyota is sadistic enough to want to buy
into your thought.  They have a streamlined and profitable operation
without having to crank out ungodly numbers of units.

As much as the US manufacturing base has been allowed to corrode and
with China making GM engines (the 3.4L v6, for one) now, don't rush to
think there will be a rush to save a failing company.

Besides, since when is natural selection in the corporate world a bad
thing?

Yeah, I know, all the jobs and all the cars...someone(s) will have to
fill that void eventually as just letting X number of potential vehicle
sales in the US market go untouched is unwise.  Kia is building a US
plant, for crying out loud.  If given no other alternative for an
Aveoesque offering, they will pull some.

Besides, after the NUMMI venture and the fact that GM had a Corolla
clone in its fold for so long, they should know something about making
consistently reliable vehicles by now.  Not spotty crap like intake
manifold gaskets, 4L60E's with aluminum valve bodies, bad alternators,
crummy taillight circuit boards on the 88-98 trucks (replaced with
aftermarket lights not using the circuit boards), the decision to
follow the Mustang by several years (2009?  Get real...) or even bring
a crossover into the fold...

But, GM a least did well in acquiring a few of the Seven sins....sloth,
gluttony, and greed, for starters.
HLS@nospam.nix - 07 Apr 2006 14:20 GMT
> I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon
> be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> product for every day transport. I know this will most likely start a
> flamewar, but I'm just stating my opinion.

I doubt that will happen.  I suspect that, at worst, GM will declare
bankruptcy,
cancel the contracts, make all the stocks worthless, and reorganize under
protection.

To declare bankrupt you don't have to be dead, just on the point of dying.

Daimler Benz, of course, acquired Chrysler, so the concept is possible.

I have been in sales meetings, by the way, where executives made the kind
of statement another poster has quoted.  "If we gave you a car that would
last
for 20 years, troublefree, would you be happy"
This might have been similar to what happened in the Ford story.
In fact they can't do this, or at least never intend to do it.
When you are trying to get a sales organization to improve its market share,
the salesmen always say "We could, if you could give us this, or that, or
the other".
It is a common CYA situation.
The worst thing you can do to a salesman, sometimes, is give him what he
asks for.
Then his excuse is ruptured.

It can be really hard to figure out how to design a product, and the
marketing technique,
which will take a large share of the business from a competitor.  Books have
been
written on it.  Some companies have wasted millions or even billions on
fool's schemes.

GM has had it share of fools in management.
Cool Jet - 08 Apr 2006 05:20 GMT
> GM has had it share of fools in management.

And these NewsGroups have had their share of fools like you. ;-) Yet .
. . you're still here!!!??? And the tripe continues to spew from your
mind. Sad really.
James Goforth - 07 Apr 2006 14:56 GMT
toycars wrote, "I think Toyota could teach those guys [GM] a thing or
two about building reliable cars."
  *************************************
 I submit that if you made the above statement to the average person on
the street--in other words, outside of this discussion room--they
wouldn't know what you were talking about.
 GM cars aren't generally regarded as being unreliable by the
population at large.
 If someone didn't know what a GM car was, and began reading about them
in this group, they would think they're absolute junk, which is far from
true.
 The main problem with GM, as I see it, is they're saddled down with so
much expenditure from health care and pensions.
 I sure as hell wouldn't have any problem with buying a GM car.
SgtSilicon - 08 Apr 2006 01:31 GMT
How long have you or your family worked for Toyota now?

>I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon
>be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>product for every day transport. I know this will most likely start a
>flamewar, but I'm just stating my opinion.
 
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