Car Forum / GMC Cars / April 2006
What if.....
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toycars26@hotmail.com - 06 Apr 2006 21:41 GMT I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for this. I think Toyota could teach those guys a thing or two about building reliable cars. I come from a Toyota family so I'm a *bit* biased. If Toyota does buy GM, I might even consider buying a (new) GM product for every day transport. I know this will most likely start a flamewar, but I'm just stating my opinion.
badgolferman - 06 Apr 2006 23:00 GMT > I know this will most likely start a > flamewar I think this is the main point of your post.
Bassplayer12 - 06 Apr 2006 23:12 GMT >I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon > be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for > this. I think Toyota could teach those guys a thing or two about > building reliable cars. I come from a Toyota family so I'm a *bit* They DO know how to buid a reliable car. Employee salaries and benefits and keeping stockholders happy have forced the North American car manufacturers to lower a lot of things, including quality. Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could go 20 years trouble free. They said NO!!! Profits are more important than anything else.
badgolferman - 06 Apr 2006 23:27 GMT > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a meeting, > Ford offered to make available to them a car that could go 20 years > trouble free. They said NO!!! Profits are more important than > anything else. I've heard this before and find it hard to believe.
Mike Hunter - 06 Apr 2006 23:32 GMT Mmmmmm.I wonder why? LOL
mike hunt
>> Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a meeting, >> Ford offered to make available to them a car that could go 20 years >> trouble free. They said NO!!! Profits are more important than >> anything else. > > I've heard this before and find it hard to believe. Bassplayer12 - 07 Apr 2006 12:38 GMT >> Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a meeting, >> Ford offered to make available to them a car that could go 20 years >> trouble free. They said NO!!! Profits are more important than >> anything else. > > I've heard this before and find it hard to believe. I know it is but my friend was a the meeting and reported exactly what was discussed.
badgolferman - 07 Apr 2006 12:58 GMT Bassplayer12, 4/7/2006, 7:38:16 AM, <IasZf.56259$VV4.999878@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca> wrote:
> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a > > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I know it is but my friend was a the meeting and reported exactly > what was discussed. No, my point is this has been repeated by many other people and I doubt they were in the same meeting as your friend. Is it possible your friend is repeating something he heard from other people...? After all it does make a good story.
 Signature "Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it." ~ Flannery O'Connor
Bassplayer12 - 07 Apr 2006 13:12 GMT >> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a >> > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > friend is repeating something he heard from other people...? After all > it does make a good story. It was repeated by other people and probably became a legend or an urban myth in some ways many other story. I see your point. My friend assured me it was true. He told me the story about 15 years ago and was very serious when telling it. He was a Ford dealer and went to a Ford dealer meeting. The Ford brass did indeed proposed to build a car that could last 20 years. They all said NO! Glen has passed away a couple of years ago so, I can't ask him for the details.
Jane - 07 Apr 2006 14:51 GMT >>> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a >>> > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Glen has passed away a couple of years ago so, I can't ask him for the > details. Could be an urban myth...BUT...they always said that GM sold Fridgidaire all those years ago because they were too reliable and never broke down, hence not enough turn-over. That could well be a myth, too, so don't shoot the messenger!
Jane
robandjj@hotmail.com - 07 Apr 2006 17:10 GMT JUST BUY A TOYOTA AND IT WILL LAST 20 YEARS!!!!!!!!
> >>> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a > >>> > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Jane SgtSilicon - 08 Apr 2006 01:37 GMT Your comments, when they constantly promote Toyota are unwelcome here. Not only are you "against" the brand for which this group is for, you noticeably promote Toyota.
As an aside, I wonder if Toyota doesn't pay people to post "average Joe" stuff all over the internet as part of a modern marketing strategy. Before anyone laughs or says conspiracy nut, be aware that such kinds of things actually have been reported as happening.
>JUST BUY A TOYOTA AND IT WILL LAST 20 YEARS!!!!!!!! > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> >> Jane Bonehenge - 08 Apr 2006 01:44 GMT >As an aside, I wonder if Toyota doesn't pay people to post "average >Joe" stuff all over the internet as part of a modern marketing >strategy. Before anyone laughs or says conspiracy nut, be aware that >such kinds of things actually have been reported as happening. I'd take the money with a totally clear conscience.
My "average Joe" Toyotas have been great, including my 300,000 mile 22R powered 1985 pickup.
Thanks for the lead-in...
Travis King - 08 Apr 2006 03:33 GMT >>>> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a >>>> > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Jane I have a GM, (Pontiac 6000) and it's 18 years. It's getting lots of problems however, with relatively low miles for its age - 124,000. I don't know how much longer I'll be keeping it. (My guess is less than a year.) I was looking at a Camry, but the one I was looking at, somebody else bought it.
Mike Marlow - 07 Apr 2006 20:43 GMT > >> > > Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a > >> > > meeting, Ford offered to make available to them a car that could [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Glen has passed away a couple of years ago so, I can't ask him for the > details. Nothing about these kinds of stories makes any sense. Take a second to think about it. Why would Ford want to make a car that will last 20 years? To help their own parts business? These stories always have a "friend" who was there and, and, and..., but the fact remains that it's not even possible, let alone probable. It's just like the miracle carburetor that some wingnut supposedly developed which gave 80 mpg out of the average V-8, and GM purchased the rights to it and put it on a shelf.
Now think about it from this perspective. What machine in the price range of a car, can possibly go 20 years trouble free? It's a machine. It's subject to wear and fatigue. Do you really think Ford is not aware of the fact that things begin wearing out the moment they begin operating?
I believe it might have been possible for Ford to have asked it's dealers a philosophical question that went along the lines of "do you want us to build a car that lasts 20 years, or do you want the continued service and parts business?", which is quite different from offering to build a car that can really last 20 years. Context is everything. BTW - who was the "Ford" that asked this question? Ford Marketing? Ford Service/Parts? Ford Sales? It is quite meaningless to say "Ford offered...".
 Signature -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
larry - 07 Apr 2006 21:42 GMT >Now think about it from this perspective. What machine in the price range >of a car, can possibly go 20 years trouble free? It's a machine. It's >subject to wear and fatigue. Do you really think Ford is not aware of the >fact that things begin wearing out the moment they begin operating? Any Engineer worth his pocketprotector can design a car that will last 20yrs trouble free, just like any 3rd yr. Engineering STUDENT can design an 80mpg carb. Oh, but wait... did you want that carb to work on a cold morning? AND still get you up a hill? Oh, and you want to run full speed to the convenience store and shut off the motor? And THEN start it up in 2 minutes and it NOT blow up?? Everything is a tradeoff. 80mpg vs. vaporlock/explosion? 80mpg vs. getting passed by a mo-ped?? Tradeoffs.
So a 20yr troublefree car is easy. BUT you might hafta not get a lotta performance. It might handle like a dump truck -- beinz it's gonna weigh about the same. With brakes off a 747, it'll stop real well, but the weight on them tires will play h::ll with your mileage. Etc.
Everything's a tradeoff.
Anyone that believes ANY word uttered by ANYone that works or has worked at a dealership is gonna ultimately be disappointed.
Bonehenge - 07 Apr 2006 22:32 GMT >Any Engineer worth his pocketprotector can design a car that will last >20yrs trouble free, just like any 3rd yr. Engineering STUDENT can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >minutes and it NOT blow up?? >Everything is a tradeoff. 80mpg vs. vaporlock/explosion? Maybe that's why the only things still made with carbs have lawnmower blades under them or are raced in circles using 60's pickup truck suspensions? <G>
There's performance, and then there's PERFORMANCE...
Market based fuel prices would easily drive the average driver toward the good performance they need vs. 350 HP to drive to 7-Eleven that cheap gas encourages.
Edwin Pawlowski - 08 Apr 2006 04:00 GMT "Bassplayer12" <perettij@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message
>> I've heard this before and find it hard to believe. > > I know it is but my friend was a the meeting and reported exactly what was > discussed. This was the same meeting where the new carburetor was also shown that got 60 mpg on any engine. The oil companies bought it up and hide it. Right next to the car that runs on water if you put these two little pills in the gas tank.
Mike Marlow - 08 Apr 2006 12:23 GMT > "Bassplayer12" <perettij@nbnet.nb.ca> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > next to the car that runs on water if you put these two little pills in the > gas tank. You forgot the magnet that you have to put around the fuel lines also - the pills don't work if the molecules aren't aligned in the proper polarity.
 Signature -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
Bonehenge - 08 Apr 2006 13:02 GMT >You forgot the magnet that you have to put around the fuel lines also - the >pills don't work if the molecules aren't aligned in the proper polarity. Don't forget that the shiny side of the foil goes out when making the hat.
Or is that in?
Mike Marlow - 08 Apr 2006 20:44 GMT > >You forgot the magnet that you have to put around the fuel lines also - the > >pills don't work if the molecules aren't aligned in the proper polarity. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Or is that in? I think it depends on whether you're an introvert or an extrovert.
 Signature -Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net
brxsep - 09 Apr 2006 00:38 GMT Let me put a twist on this. With GM selling their majority interest in GMAC, they will have over 20 BILLION in cash. Now, just applying a little Economic 101, what does business due when the market is full and has a lot of cash? Start buying. So, lets just say GM takes those dollars and buys a controlling interest in Toyota or Hunda.
Now, they have a power house to combine Toyota and GM dealers together to either up or down sell to Joe off the street. The question then becomes, does GM need a Pontiac, GMC, Buick or Saturn? Yes, one can picture all four brands going away (I am a die in the wool converted Pontiac Trans Am man for over 30 years so it pains me to think about it).
GM would expand the line of Toyota trucks, SUVs and more smaller line of cars.
My two cents.
Jim Higgins - 09 Apr 2006 01:13 GMT > Let me put a twist on this. With GM selling their majority interest in > GMAC, they will have over 20 BILLION in cash. Now, just applying a [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > My two cents. Highly unlikely scenario. GM doesn't have the capability to even attempt to buy Toyota, let alone actually do it. GM is rotting from the inside out and will probably be in bankruptcy by years end and certainly by the contract talks in '07. I just do not believe that GM has the vision, intelligence and will to really change their mindset that builds cars that the public doesn't care to buy-that is one reason their market share keeps declining. The fleet sales hide just how bad GM's decline is because they hide an even bigger decline in "regular" sales. Then there are the many, many ticked off ex-GM owners that have been badly burned by poor customer service and poor engineering. We have very, very long memories of how we were screwed by GM and its payback time. GM is going down.
Charles U' Farley - 12 Apr 2006 00:15 GMT That's only because you have more intelligence than a turnip. People with turnip-level intelligence often believe that story.
>> Another thing, friend of mine used to be a Ford dealer. At a meeting, >> Ford offered to make available to them a car that could go 20 years >> trouble free. They said NO!!! Profits are more important than >> anything else. > > I've heard this before and find it hard to believe. Hachiroku - 07 Apr 2006 18:11 GMT > >I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon >> be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > and keeping > stockholders happy.... This is the main problem. They are trying to keep the stockholders happy by keeping costs down. This leads to firing worker (which, with all the benefits of being fired, does NOT lower costs...) and by cheapening the product.
As Toyota has learned, the BEST way to make a profit is by making a product people WANT to buy, and buy them up as fast as they are made! And they have found people are willing to pay a premium for a car they can DRIVE on the weekends instead of opening the hood every Saturday. Switches that don't feel like they are going to fall off in you hand.
And, by the very nature of their design, due to being from Japan where fuel costs are much higher, very good economy.
I for one would be willing to get less for a lower price, like my old Corollas, rather than pay a lower price for a car that appears to be full-featured, but made with the cheapest components possible. Quality over quantity. They could make a Cavalier (or, Cobalt I think it is now) that would last as long as any Corolla, without the 'blings' and that would suit me just fine. As long as it didn't FEEL cheap
My $0.02.
alfredB18@prodigy.net - 06 Apr 2006 23:41 GMT > I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon > be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > product for every day transport. I know this will most likely start a > flamewar, but I'm just stating my opinion. Whoa. You seem to think it is INEVITABLE that GM will just find its savior in the form of another company and all will live happily ever after.
Don't necessarily bet that Toyota is sadistic enough to want to buy into your thought. They have a streamlined and profitable operation without having to crank out ungodly numbers of units.
As much as the US manufacturing base has been allowed to corrode and with China making GM engines (the 3.4L v6, for one) now, don't rush to think there will be a rush to save a failing company.
Besides, since when is natural selection in the corporate world a bad thing?
Yeah, I know, all the jobs and all the cars...someone(s) will have to fill that void eventually as just letting X number of potential vehicle sales in the US market go untouched is unwise. Kia is building a US plant, for crying out loud. If given no other alternative for an Aveoesque offering, they will pull some.
Besides, after the NUMMI venture and the fact that GM had a Corolla clone in its fold for so long, they should know something about making consistently reliable vehicles by now. Not spotty crap like intake manifold gaskets, 4L60E's with aluminum valve bodies, bad alternators, crummy taillight circuit boards on the 88-98 trucks (replaced with aftermarket lights not using the circuit boards), the decision to follow the Mustang by several years (2009? Get real...) or even bring a crossover into the fold...
But, GM a least did well in acquiring a few of the Seven sins....sloth, gluttony, and greed, for starters.
HLS@nospam.nix - 07 Apr 2006 14:20 GMT > I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon > be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > product for every day transport. I know this will most likely start a > flamewar, but I'm just stating my opinion. I doubt that will happen. I suspect that, at worst, GM will declare bankruptcy, cancel the contracts, make all the stocks worthless, and reorganize under protection.
To declare bankrupt you don't have to be dead, just on the point of dying.
Daimler Benz, of course, acquired Chrysler, so the concept is possible.
I have been in sales meetings, by the way, where executives made the kind of statement another poster has quoted. "If we gave you a car that would last for 20 years, troublefree, would you be happy" This might have been similar to what happened in the Ford story. In fact they can't do this, or at least never intend to do it. When you are trying to get a sales organization to improve its market share, the salesmen always say "We could, if you could give us this, or that, or the other". It is a common CYA situation. The worst thing you can do to a salesman, sometimes, is give him what he asks for. Then his excuse is ruptured.
It can be really hard to figure out how to design a product, and the marketing technique, which will take a large share of the business from a competitor. Books have been written on it. Some companies have wasted millions or even billions on fool's schemes.
GM has had it share of fools in management.
Cool Jet - 08 Apr 2006 05:20 GMT > GM has had it share of fools in management. And these NewsGroups have had their share of fools like you. ;-) Yet . . . you're still here!!!??? And the tripe continues to spew from your mind. Sad really.
James Goforth - 07 Apr 2006 14:56 GMT toycars wrote, "I think Toyota could teach those guys [GM] a thing or two about building reliable cars." ************************************* I submit that if you made the above statement to the average person on the street--in other words, outside of this discussion room--they wouldn't know what you were talking about. GM cars aren't generally regarded as being unreliable by the population at large. If someone didn't know what a GM car was, and began reading about them in this group, they would think they're absolute junk, which is far from true. The main problem with GM, as I see it, is they're saddled down with so much expenditure from health care and pensions. I sure as hell wouldn't have any problem with buying a GM car.
SgtSilicon - 08 Apr 2006 01:31 GMT How long have you or your family worked for Toyota now?
>I was thinking, with GM having all the problems they are, they may soon >be bought out by another company. Say Toyota for example. I'm all for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >product for every day transport. I know this will most likely start a >flamewar, but I'm just stating my opinion.
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