 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
Car Forum / GMC Cars / June 2006Converting a gasoline-only vehicle to run on E85?
Okay, here' s a silly question...... Has anyone come up with any vehicle-specific parts lists that contain ALL of the fuel system components affected adversely by E85 fuel? I mean ALL the components that would need to be replaced and/or modified in order to run E85 in a vehicle that predates the fuel? I imagine that this list would include all sorts of parts like gaskets/seals, maybe the fuel pump, fuel filters and other assorted fuel delivery components. Any ECU reprogramming, or will that happen automatically? If the fuel is cheap/plentiful enough in a particular area, some enterprizing person may be able to make a profit by generating such a list and supplying the necessary parts in some kind of a conversion kit. If the change-over could be done cheaply enough (maybe as part of a repair or normal maintenance) one might be able to save a few bucks in the long run by being able to switch to the cheaper fuel..... Any thoughts here Not Dead Yet Greetings, I'm no whiz on E85, but it seems to me that such a list would be pretty extensive, and include such things as installing stainless steel fuel lines, replacing every gasket and seal and rubber fitting from the fuel filler to the tank to the fuel pump to the fuel injection pump to the injector lines. Add to that the recirculation and vapor lines and cannister. Maybe someone here could also verify if such things like intake manifold gaskets and throttle body gaskets, etc. would need to be replaced as well??? I don't know. I do know that if such a conversion was easy and cheap then there would already be kits for it, and maybe even one directly from the vehicle manufacturers - but there's a lot more issues than just a few seals and new programming (including legal - there are rules against tampering with your emissions systems). Just the differences in the motors from the factory are significant enough to make me think that such a conversion wouldn't be cheap or easy. Add to that the fact that E85 doesn't get nearly the MPG that gasoline gets and I think that eats into any fuel cost savings as well. Cheers - Jonathan > Okay, here' s a silly question...... > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Not Dead Yet According to the auto manufacturers, it would not make economic sense to convert a vehicle to E85 because you would have to replace most of the fuel system components. However, if you can obtain the parts at extremely low or no cost (midnight auto parts sales?) it might be worth the effort. Group: alt.autos.gm Date: Fri, Jun 2, 2006, 3:42am (EDT+4) From: Fire_Capt651@hotmail.com (Jonathan) Greetings, I'm no whiz on E85, but it seems to me that such a list would be pretty extensive, and include such things as installing stainless steel fuel lines, replacing every gasket and seal and rubber fitting from the fuel filler to the tank to the fuel pump to the fuel injection pump to the injector lines. Add to that the recirculation and vapor lines and cannister. Maybe someone here could also verify if such things like intake manifold gaskets and throttle body gaskets, etc. would need to be replaced as well??? I don't know. I do know that if such a conversion was easy and cheap then there would already be kits for it, and maybe even one directly from the vehicle manufacturers - but there's a lot more issues than just a few seals and new programming (including legal - there are rules against tampering with your emissions systems). Just the differences in the motors from the factory are significant enough to make me think that such a conversion wouldn't be cheap or easy. Add to that the fact that E85 doesn't get nearly the MPG that gasoline gets and I think that eats into any fuel cost savings as well. Cheers - Jonathan "NotDeadYet" <don'tbother@emailingme.com> wrote in message news:in8v725n7teu4cnc2su0qsems1g3v37crg@4ax.com... Okay, here' s a silly question...... Has anyone come up with any vehicle-specific parts lists that contain ALL of the fuel system components affected adversely by E85 fuel? I mean ALL the components that would need to be replaced and/or modified in order to run E85 in a vehicle that predates the fuel? I imagine that this list would include all sorts of parts like gaskets/seals, maybe the fuel pump, fuel filters and other assorted fuel delivery components. Any ECU reprogramming, or will that happen automatically? If the fuel is cheap/plentiful enough in a particular area, some enterprizing person may be able to make a profit by generating such a list and supplying the necessary parts in some kind of a conversion kit. If the change-over could be done cheaply enough (maybe as part of a repair or normal maintenance) one might be able to save a few bucks in the long run by being able to switch to the cheaper fuel..... Any thoughts here Not Dead Yet %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% "Sometimes, when you're up to your butt in alligators, it's hard to remember that the intial objective was to drain the swamp." ~ Unknown ~ > According to the auto manufacturers, it would not make economic sense to > convert a vehicle to E85 because you would have to replace most of the > fuel system components. However, if you can obtain the parts at > extremely low or no cost (midnight auto parts sales?) it might be worth > the effort. Or junk yard, find the same vehicle as yours which already supports e85 > Okay, here' s a silly question...... > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > gaskets/seals, maybe the fuel pump, fuel filters and other assorted > fuel delivery components. For instance... Different fuel tank ($200+) Different fuel pump ($400-$500+ in some cases) Different fuel lines if not stainless steel or plastic ($??) Different fuel injectors ($100+ ea cylinder) Add Flex fuel sensor ($700) (you're way over $1000.00 at this point in parts alone) Different PCM (another $500-$1000 > Any ECU reprogramming, or will that happen > automatically? It won't happen automatically if the Flex fuel components aren't there. The PCM has a fairly narrow range of adjustment (fuel trim) before fault codes are stored and SES lights start illuminating. > If the fuel is cheap/plentiful enough in a particular area, some > enterprizing person may be able to make a profit by generating such a > list and supplying the necessary parts in some kind of a conversion > kit. it would need to be EPA certified to be legal. not cheap to accomplish, then there is California and a few other states which mimic California emissions regulations. > If the change-over could be done cheaply enough Define cheaply enough. I see between $2000 to $3000 in parts > (maybe as part of a > repair or normal maintenance) one might be able to save a few bucks in > the long run by being able to switch to the cheaper fuel..... Cheaper fuel??? I guess the illusion is working. <shrug> E-85 is government subsidized, with -your- tax money. Just because you're paying two different times for E-85 doesn't make it cheaper. > Any thoughts here You want to burn a fuel that requires large amounts of natural gas to produce, can't be pipelined, has to be trucked, produces 30-50% worse fuel mileage just to (supposedly) save 40- 60 cents a gallon at the pump during which time, the government will be reaching into your pocket to fund the subsidy, and you want to compromise the reliability of your vehicle to do so. > Not Dead Yet > > Okay, here' s a silly question...... > > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > > > Not Dead Yet As a none engineer but one who has followed the ethanol industry for over 25 years I am suprised at both what is mentioned and what is not mentioned. First question. if the fuel system componenets can handle 10% ethanol why not 85%. I have used suposidly 10% blends for over twenty years without fuel system problems. In the early years a couple car dealers warned me about gasahol until I said 'I don't want the car then' and they quickly back tracked. I think they were trying to set up something other than their product as scapegoat for whatever. Secondly I thought the problem with high % blends was the inability of the fuel system to inject enough volume of the lower energy fuel to avoid over lean cumbustion. A lean fuel mixture burns steel engine parts just as an oxygen torch cuts steel. At least that is my understanding. A final question when will the enginers establish and publish the true milage an automobile will do with various blends so we can calulate the cost per mile rather than cost per gallon. It is clear that ethanol has the political support but it is not clear that it makes economic sense in a world faced with a major expansion in demand as India, China and other nations find thenselves able to compete for energy resources in the next few decades. Bill > As a none engineer but one who has followed the ethanol industry for over 25 > years I am suprised at both what is mentioned and what is not mentioned. > First question. if the fuel system componenets can handle 10% ethanol why > not 85%. One mans heart medication is another Rats poison. > I have used suposidly 10% blends for over twenty years without > fuel system problems. In the early years a couple car dealers warned me > about gasahol until I said 'I don't want the car then' and they quickly back > tracked. I think they were trying to set up something other than their > product as scapegoat for whatever. OEMs have been cautioning not to use more than 10% alcohol for a lot longer than EFI has been mainstream. > Secondly I thought the problem with high > % blends was the inability of the fuel system to inject enough volume of the > lower energy fuel to avoid over lean cumbustion. A lean fuel mixture burns > steel engine parts just as an oxygen torch cuts steel. At least that is my > understanding. You understand wrong. Lean mixtures burn cooler, they also burn slower. It's the slower burn that damages exhaust valves. Hottest combustion is slightly richer than stoichiometric, .95 lambda, IIRC. > A final question when will the enginers establish and publish the true > milage an automobile will do with various blends so we can calulate the cost > per mile rather than cost per gallon. Never since there are too many variables that they can't account for. > It is clear that ethanol has the political support ADM owns a lot of Congresscritters... > but it is not clear that > it makes economic sense in a world faced with a major expansion in demand as > India, China and other nations find thenselves able to compete for energy > resources in the next few decades. The next 20 years will be interesting. > Okay, here' s a silly question...... > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Not Dead Yet Considering it is against federal law to convert the vehicle to ANY other fuel I wouldn't even bother. | > Okay, here' s a silly question...... | > [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] | Considering it is against federal law to convert the vehicle to ANY | other fuel I wouldn't even bother. Huh! Can you quote the statute or law? There are many aftermarket conversions to Propane or Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) on the road right now. Most are dual fuel conversions.  SignatureJarhead |
Reply to this Message |
 Sign In
 Join
 My Latest Posts My Monitored Threads My Blog My Photo Gallery My Profile My Homepage Start New Thread Enable EMail Alerts Rate this Thread
|
©2008 Advenet LLC Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.