<snip>

Are you telling me that I should take a piece of black electrical tape and
put it over my VIN number on my dashboard to keep my car from
getting stolen... for chrissakes...!

Jimmy

Rob,

 GM also requires their dealers to keep records on any person that
requests a key based on VIN number. It is for the dealer's own
protection: if a dealer makes a key for someone that is not the owner
and that car gets stolen, the dealer is an accessory to that theft and
can, at the least, be subject o civil suit.

 Here is a direct quote of Buick Bulletin 01-00-89-009:

Info - Replacement of Keys, Key Numbers and/or Security Chips
#01-00-89-009
Replacement of Keys, Key Numbers and/or Security Chips
2002 and Prior Passenger Cars and Trucks

General Motors has received reports from dealers and law enforcement
officials in various parts of the country regarding a new trend in
auto theft.

The current mode of operation is for a person (thief) to do the
following:

Pick out the vehicle he/she wishes to steal from a new/used car sales
facility or off the street.

Record the Vehicle Identification Number (VIN).

Take the VIN to any dealership which cuts keys. In some instances they
have presented hand-written registration forms as proof of ownership.

The thief then returns and drives the vehicle from the location.

Cutting of replacement keys is serious business. General Motors
Policies and Procedures Manual, Section 3.2.5 (3.1.6 in Canada),
Replacement of Key Numbers & Security Chips, provides the following
guidelines: "For security and protection against auto theft, dealer
should verify vehicle ownership before providing replacement keys, key
numbers and/or security chips. Verification should include positive
identification of requester and verification of vehicle ownership
through registration."

Each dealership should (if they are in the business of cutting keys
for walk-in, phone, fax, or other requesters) make a permanent file,
by VIN, of all key requests. Copies of the following documents should
remain in each file:

Government-issued picture ID (for example, a driver's license)

Registration or other proof of ownership Registration should have
normal markings from the state/province which issued the registration
and possibly the receipt for payment recorded as well. Since each
state/province will be different, you will need to set up guidelines
for your dealership based on the current registration laws and or
policies of your state/province. We know of no law enforcement agency
or state/province vehicle registration office which will accept a
hand-written registration document.

Copy of the paid customer receipt which has the name of the employee
who cut and sold the key to the customer

When vehicle ownership cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, DO
NOT provide the keys. Refer the customer to the selling dealer or GM
Roadside Assistance.

Important
When a dealership calls the TRACS 2000 voice response system (Vintage
Group in Canada) for key codes, the dealer code is recorded by VIN, in
a permanent electronic file.
Cutting keys for anyone other than the registered vehicle owner may
result in the dealership and/or employee being charged with aiding and
abetting in grand theft auto and determined to be liable, in the event
the vehicle is subsequently stolen from another dealership or
customer.

Dealers may wish to designate one specific, trusted employee as the
person to handle all key requests.

Which part about Ian sees this every day in the [GM] dealership
where he works is too hard for you to understand?

You're claiming that GM is incapable of maintaining a [very]
simple database.  They're inept, but not -that- inept.

How many decades have you been out of the loop?
Here's a news flash; the VIN is now used to determine many things
about which specific equipment was installed on a vehicle when it
was built, right down to the interior trim color and whether it
has power seats and rear air conditioning.  Is this coded in the
VIN? Of course not (and no one claimed that it was), but the VIN
allows access to a database that contains the information.
No different than pushing a sequence of buttons on a radio to get
a numerical readout, inputting those numbers into an automated
telephone database and getting an unlock code.
<zoom, right over Hunters head>

No it is not, not by current technology.

You're splitting hairs.  No, you cannot determine the key code using a
single character in the VIN, and I don't think anyone other than
yourself said something to indicate they thought this.  However, the
VIN may be used, by an authorized person, to obtain the code using
GM's database.  I can't imagine GM is unable to record the key code
used on a given vehicle at the time of assembly and leaves it up to
the selling dealer to record this code, thus forcing the owner to FIND
said selling dealer (if no the original owner) to make a new key.  As
was said before, GM isn't THAT inept or poor at record-keeping.  Not
to mention that it would make road-side assistance calls VERY
difficult if an owner needs a key cut while on vacation because theirs
got dropped in the ocean.

Now, if the vehicle in question has been re-keyed, that's another
story.

So, you'd know then right off the top of your head what the exact
torque specifications are for the rocker arm bolts on a GM 3400
engine in a 2002 Montana mini-van is, right?

IOWs, why would a sales manager know jack sh.t about cutting keys
when that is the lot boys job?

Ah, that explains why you always radiate that aura of "full of sh.t."

nate

Thanks Ian.  And that should be a wake up call to people that covering
their VIN might not be such a bad idea.