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Car Forum / GMC Cars / December 2006General Motors Death Watch 101: Bankruptcy. Just Tzu It
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2716 > http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2716 ""There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare." GM has been fighting the inevitable for too long. It's time for GM to file for bankruptcy, regroup, gain a competitive advantage, and start again." Yadda Yadda Yadda > > http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2716 > > ""There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged > warfare." GM has been fighting the inevitable for too long. It's > time for GM to file for bankruptcy, regroup, gain a competitive > advantage, and start again." You mean like reincorporate in Japan, assemble vehicles in the US of parts made mostly in low wage countries with final assembly in the Canada to qualify as NA parts, have the taxpayers in no union states build state of the art assemble plants for you, pay less and offer much lower benefits to your workers, trained at no cost to you in state taxpayer financed VoTexs, and best of all not having to pay US federal corporate taxes on all the millions in profits they earn, like other Japanese auto companies? ;) mike >> http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2716 > > ""There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged > warfare." GM has been fighting the inevitable for too long. It's > time for GM to file for bankruptcy, regroup, gain a competitive > advantage, and start again." Well, yes. This is actually the death throes of the industrial labor unions. It appears they have priced themselves out of everything. You reap the seeds you plant. These seeds were planted in the 1930's. > You mean like reincorporate in Japan, assemble vehicles in the US of parts > made mostly in low wage countries with final assembly in the Canada to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > mike > You mean like reincorporate in Japan, assemble vehicles in the US of parts > made mostly in low wage countries You keep saying this Mike, but it isn't true. The Camry has more US content than does the Canadian Impala and the Civic has more US content than the Mexican Fusion. Ford and GM are moving assembly and parts sourcing out of the US just as fast as they can. It is the Japanese and Koreans who are building factories in the US. These factories are not simply assembling knock down kits from Japan. It doesn't cost over $1 billion dollars to throw up a final assembly only plant, but that is what Toyota has spent to build their new San Antonio, Texas truck factory. The current Camry Toyota, Honda and Hyundai are adding factories and adding workers in the US. GM, Ford and Chrysler are getting rid of factories and workers just as fast as they can. If you want to support US jobs, buy a US made Japanese branded vehicle. If you want to build more factories in Mexico and China, I guess that GM and Ford are the place for you to go. "> Struggling US carmaker Ford Motor Co yesterday said it will nearly double its sourcing of auto parts this year in China" > http://english.people.com.cn/200610/27/eng20061027_315632.html If I were to buy any foreign car, it would be an Accord or a Nissan. Honda and Nissan actually make cars in the US of American parts and exhibit a '1' as the first number of the VIN. Not a Camry or Tundra with a '4' or '5' that is only assembled in the US of mostly imported parts, that come into Canada and the US partially assembled to be finished, to qualify for inclusion on the NA parts label. I will not do that however since the profit on those cars goes to Japan US federal corporate tax free. mike >> You mean like reincorporate in Japan, assemble vehicles in the US of >> parts made mostly in low wage countries [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > as fast as they can. If you want to support US jobs, buy a US made > Japanese branded vehicle. moer? > I will not do that however Is this supposed to be mower? Like in a lawnmower >http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2716 Negotiatiing cutbacks outside of the bankrupcy court leaves only the core issues to be resolved under bankruptcy. Said again.... if GM and the UAW were to go into bankruptcy court with a whole bunch of issues ...the non-essential issues would be the first to be negotiated and the essential ones would probably still be a millstone around GM's neck. Same with management, supplies etc. By getting rid of the non-essential issues before headed into the courtroom...GM pares it down to negotiating the essential ones... ie which arm are you most willing to give up... your left one or your right one. So which American companies are thriving and providing jobs for Americans?? I'm probably going to be flamed here for 'protectiionism" and "nationalism", but McDonalds, Wal-mart and other large companies on the horizon are not adding well paying jobs to the American workforce. I'm rooting for the GM and Ford turnarounds !!! Peter > So which American companies are thriving and providing jobs for Americans?? I'm > probably going to be flamed here for 'protectiionism" and "nationalism", but McDonalds, > Wal-mart and other large companies on the horizon are not adding well paying jobs to > the American workforce. The times of the BIG companies are over They are getting extinct just like the dinosaurs Over the last few decades a change for quality has made BIG obsolete The likes of the BIG three do not stand a chance in todays environment They will be outperformed on all levels New companies are taking over on every plane of the playing field High quality is what people want and high quality is what they will be getting but the BIG companies can not deliver Small companies with new technologies are popping up all over the place and they are producing quality and they have the flexibility to make all kinds of goods the market wants and needs It is very interesting to watch the BIG companies stumble on to an inevitable death How long can GM keep on struggling and how will it end are part of the movie It is like watching an Elephant that has been attached by a pack of Lions that are nibbling into it here and there The Elephant is still standing and moving along with less and less power as more and more Lions jump on it And TOYOTA and HONDA are not big companies? > The times of the BIG companies are over > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > The Elephant is still standing and moving along with less and less > power as more and more Lions jump on it > And TOYOTA and HONDA are not big companies? Japanese know how to make small quality items The BIG american companies do not You mean like the Toyotas made in China, and Mexico? mike >> And TOYOTA and HONDA are not big companies? > > Japanese know how to make small quality items > > The BIG american companies do not As long as America consumer continues to buy imports or things only assembled in the US by foreign companies of imported parts, the US worker will continue to be the loser. Gm and Ford will not of out business they will simply lower their build cost at the expense of their workers. Look what happened to the American industries like Steel, Plastics, Chemical, Tire and Paint companies. mike >>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2716 > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Peter <top posting corrected> >>>http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2716 >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > what happened to the American industries like Steel, Plastics, Chemical, > Tire and Paint companies. Yeah, I'm happy I drive an American made truck like the Avalanche.... ...what?.... ...it was made in Mexico?.... ..oh. Si! Yo estoy feliz yo tengo un auto Mexicano como el Avalanche! Una cervesa por favor!  Signaturekai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request > So which American companies are thriving and providing jobs for > Americans?? I'm [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Peter I think most of us would like to see Gm and Ford turn around, both in attitudes and quality, and in financial success. Protectionism and nationalism are not always bad words. This quality thing is more myth than fact. I have owned many cars in my time both domestic and foreign. I have yet to own one that was not a fine dependable vehicle, no mater whose brand was on the hood. The reason I no longer buy foreign is I can buy domestics for much less and they are just as good. mike >> So which American companies are thriving and providing jobs for >> Americans?? I'm [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Protectionism and nationalism are not always bad words. > I think most of us would like to see Gm and Ford turn around, both in > attitudes and quality, and in > financial success. You are waiting for the impossible GM only knows about quantity >> I think most of us would like to see Gm and Ford turn around, both in >> attitudes and quality, and in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >GM only knows about quantity Hmmm.... Seems to me there is a pretty good plan in place. Most of the unprofitability seems to be the NA marketplace...and GM is carrying a lot of baggage in this area. (without going into all the boring details) I saw a few comments from the president of UAW just the other day..... basically a " we will perish together rather than give up anything we've won" attitude Typical "defending the turf" union rubbish. Typical entrenched bureaucratic management rubbish also. They've proved they can follow the market demands by designing and building SUV's which the American public bought in record numbers. Sure there was a downturn during high gas prices however demand will surge back up...when / if the gas supply problem is resolved. Otherwise, it's back to designing fuel efficient cars which they have been doing for years. The automobile market is alive and doing well... GM has proven ability to design, build and market comparable cars. It has to re-invent itself to deal with current global conditions. In a turn around situation, a headhunter is usually brought in as CEO. the person is brought in from the outside so there are no existing loyalties or committments...and his job is to pinpoint exactly where the problems lie and to provide fixes. Otherwise known as slash and burn. And then if further steps are necessary, takes the company into Chapter 11 reorganization to bust the unions and get out of pension committments. I'm not counting GM off for dead just yet.... there have been a lot of precedents set in the airline industry regarding turnarounds of union dominated companies... and more examples of successful corporate turnarounds There is a business model for turning around companies. If you're a 'people person', destruction of a bureaucracy is not going to be a pretty sight. Families who depend upon one paycheck, or one income stream are going to take a hit. (two incomes, plus a business plus active investing skills plus planning for future changes will, in most cases, protect you from unforseen economic changes.) If you're an investor.... your GM portfolio might become worthless. (K-mart is a prime example of this). Lenders might have to renegotiate packages. But it seems pretty feasible that GM and / or Ford can be turned around and remade into profitable companies...smaller, a fraction of the size they once were, but able to compete in the market place. Course I can't tell the future, nor can anyone else... and a lot depends upon business skills and knowledge. But the right person in the right place at the right time can do wonders...(Bill Ford is still probably pissed off at Lee Iacocca when he turned Chrysler around) I don't know if anyone still remembers the old WANG labs up in Massachusetts, but they have had a moderate measure of success as Computer Associates or CA. (sanjay kumar notwithstanding). Peter.... Meanwhile I have to tear apart a dash to replace a heater core for the second time (made in China) and a power steering hose. best to all. . > If you're an investor.... your GM portfolio might become worthless. > (K-mart is a prime [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > around and remade into profitable companies...smaller, a fraction of the > size they once were, but able to compete in the market place. Kerkorian dumped a ton of stock just this morning, bringing him below the magic 5% level for reporting...He should have a pretty good idea of what to expect. We'll see how it plays out, but I would not buy stocks either in GM or Ford. Ford announced a plan to borrow $18 billion via bonds backed by their assets. This is like trading your cow for magic beans. Maybe they can make it work. Hope so. I dont judge their success by their selling high profit trucks and SUVs to the American public. They are going to have to improve quality and dependability, driveability, and economy. Like Honda and Toyota or not, those two companies are taking bites out of the American market. You might get away with a statement like that in a Toyota NG, but you can't here. The facts show otherwise. GM and Ford sell more vehicles than any import, which shows there are far more buyers who disagree with you than agree. According to many recent owner surveys not only are many of the domestic models as good as the import models, several have out scored imports. The Ford Fusion and its Mercury and Lincoln cousins have out scored comparable Toyota and Honda vehicles in several surveys of actual owners. CR even point out the V6 Fusion cost much less than a 4 cy Camry. Buick score high as well GM has more models that get 30 MPG or more than does Toyota.. GM and Ford sell far more truck and SUVs than the import brands. Domestic full size trucks get as good or better fuel mileage than the Tundra or Titan and they are lager more powerful trucks. That is why import brand full-size trucks such poor sellers in comparison mike > I don't judge their success by their selling high profit trucks and SUVs > to the American public. They are going to have to improve quality and > dependability, driveability, and economy. Mike, Why don't you share your valuable automotive wisdom and insight with the whole world and write an editorial for http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/. They are always looking for submissions and editorials. Think about the good you could do, educating us about the wisdom of buying American, above all else. Please consider sharing your years of experience. You would be doing us all a great service. Len > You might get away with a statement like that in a Toyota NG, but you > can't here. The facts show otherwise. GM and Ford sell more vehicles [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> to the American public. They are going to have to improve quality and >> dependability, driveability, and economy. I get paid to teach classes, give speeches and write articles about the various facets of the Automobile industry in which I have worked, what makes you believe I should I do that for free? That is the problem with the NGs today. They are no longer a places where we engineers and technicians exchanged information, ideas and expertise. They have sunk to places filled with people looking for a cheap or free fix on there old worn-out vehicles or where some go to denigrate brands, other than the one they own, as did the original poster. mike > Mike, > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> >> mike If you're an engineer I'm a fuckin' wizard. nate > I get paid to teach classes, give speeches and write articles about the > various facets of the Automobile industry in which I have worked, what makes [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > >> > >> mike How are things in OZ? LOL mike > If you're an engineer I'm a fuckin' wizard. > [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >> >> >> >> mike > Think about the good you could do, educating us about the wisdom of buying > American, above all else. You are talking about buying GM above all else - not American You mean like the higher number of vehicles they sell than any other vehicle manufacture? LOL mike >> I think most of us would like to see Gm and Ford turn around, both in >> attitudes and quality, and in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > GM only knows about quantity The fast food joints will soon be adding a lot of new, higher paying, jobs. The new federal minimum wage, promised by the Dims, will bring about the automated systems for fast food retailing. As unionizing of farm workers led to new machinery that replaced thousands of farm works in the lettuce fields for example. Pickers were replaced with higher paying technical jobs, for those that operate and maintain the new automated equipment. Far fewer of them, but better paid by far. I was recently in one of the new automated hamburger joints with my great grandson. It has 1/5 as many workers per shift. All one needs to do is press a picture of what you want to eat and drink, pick it up from the slots and pay the ONE person out front. ;) mike >> So which American companies are thriving and providing jobs for >> Americans?? I'm [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Protectionism and nationalism are not always bad words. >The fast food joints will soon be adding a lot of new, higher paying, jobs. >The new federal minimum wage, promised by the Dims, will bring about the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >mike Sounds cool, I haven't seen the automated hamburger places yet, but it brings back memories of the Horn and Horn (or Horn and Hardart) Automat in Times Square way back when. How do they keep the food fresh? Seems to me less popular selections could be sitting for quite a while before purchase. Can they provide for "having it MY way".... one of the benefits of eating at Burger King versus McD's or "Big Dave's" (Wendy's). A lot of retail outlets have been installing the self-service checkouts (wal mart, home depot, Giant Food Stores). Good idea as they are always available during retail hours and take only a few seconds to learn. The wal mart system seems to have quite a few serious bugs but at least I don't leave the packages behind as often happens with those idiotic bagging stations. The use of Robotics was supposed to change the manufacturering process in the auto industry. Was there actual widespread implementation and acceptance of this technology in the Big 3 or was this fought by the unions?? Peter They are not vending machines. The food is not made that far in advance of being sold. As to automated vehicle assembly plant, you have obviously not been in one of the newer assembly plants, if you believe that. ;) mike >>The fast food joints will soon be adding a lot of new, higher paying, >>jobs. [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Peter > The use of Robotics was supposed to change the manufacturering > process in the auto industry. Was there actual widespread implementation > and acceptance of this technology in the Big 3 or was this fought by > the unions?? > > Peter I believe the Japanese were of the first to institute significant robotics usage in the manufacture of automobiles. Note the importance of 'significant'. American manufacturers have utilized it, but were a bit slower to integrate to the levels others did. The British used to, and still do to some degree, crow about their 'hand made' prowess. British cars hit the dumper long ago, and still have not recovered to the level they once were. The British tend to have innovative engineering, but sh.t for products. It is my believe that it is difficult if not impossible to mass produce a modern automobile to the precise standards required to give high quality, quiet rides, good handling, and durability without computer controlled robotic lines, followed by meaningful QC procedures. Maybe Im wrong, and am sure I will be called to task for it. I have been driving my son's Peugeot 307 for the past month, and am amazed at the responsiveness, smoothness, and economy of this little car. They have made very significant progress over the past years, and I would still like to know what they are doing differently to get this level of ride comfort. GM used to be, in my opinion, the unchallenged king of smooth and responsive, quiet rides, of the US producers. Maybe they still are. But they are not the kings of the world apparently. Why not? > > The use of Robotics was supposed to change the manufacturering > > process in the auto industry. Was there actual widespread > implementation > > and acceptance of this technology in the Big 3 or was this fought by > > the unions?? There are of course robot in every car factory The Unions can not, could not and should not stand completely in the way The robots can and could ake life easier for everyone There is an obvious tendency for the robots to take over the most repetitive jobs The Unions have in some degree tried to hinder the robots from removing jobs from human robots > > Peter > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > manufacturers have utilized it, > but were a bit slower to integrate to the levels others did. Both american managers and unions are to blame for slow acceptance of robots The japanese were much quicker using substantial amount of robots and making life easier for the workers Let the robots make sure everything was done computers do not forget or try to hide mistakes like human may try to do > The British used to, and still do to some degree, crow about their 'hand > made' prowess. British [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > durability without computer > controlled robotic lines, followed by meaningful QC procedures. New techniques have made it easier for anyone to mass produce for a relative low cost pretty much anything You do not need big overheads nor long lines Big is a burden nowadays > Maybe Im wrong, and am sure I will be called to task for it. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > producers. Maybe they still are. But they are not the kings of the world > apparently. Why not? GM has too much baggage and too much inertia to fight off the smaller, quicker, and agile rivals Toyota has had over 60 years to improve their techniques and GM is simple doing too little too late |
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