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Car Forum / GMC Cars / January 2007Why are all these people knocking GM ?????????
It is so funny, all these people in here talking badly about GM. I guess it just shows in here who is the real mechanics and who is not, because if you are a real mechanic then you would love GM, Chevy and Fords. The reason being is because if you are a real mechanic you would know that GM, Chevy and Fords always have problems and as long as we have GM, Chevy and Fords, us real mechanics have job security. If all the cars where Honda and Toyota made then we would have less mechanics and of course less work to do. So, thank you for GM, Chevy and Fords and I pray to God they don't catch up to Honda's or Toyota's technology. James I should say American Made Cars actually, because Dodge, Chrysler Jeep are just as reliable and need just as much work as GM, Chevy and Ford. > It is so funny, all these people in here talking badly about GM. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > James > I should say American Made Cars actually, because Dodge, Chrysler Jeep > are just as reliable and need just as much work as GM, Chevy and Ford. I wish I had that much free time that I could spend it trolling on newsgroups. You forgot to include the brand you buy, or do you think it will never breakdown? ;) mike >I should say American Made Cars actually, because Dodge, Chrysler Jeep > are just as reliable and need just as much work as GM, Chevy and Ford. > >> James > You forgot to include the brand you buy, or do you think it will never > breakdown? ;) [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >>> James If they are made in Canada or Mexico then they are not American. Toyota is more American than Ford's Mustang (their Sienna has more American parts) or DCX. The current Big Three is GM, Toyota, Ford. You forgot to say in my opinion Do you count the majority of Toyotas made in Japan and Canada? Do you include the parts from all over the world that are sent to Canada for assembly as Canadian part of Japanese or American parts?. The fact remains 80% to 85% of all the vehicles GM and Ford sell in the US are made in the US of America parts and sport a '1' as the first number of the VIN Less than half of what Toyota sells in the US are assemble in the US. The ONLY Toyota made in the US with over 70% American parts are those made in the GM/Toyota California plant, like the Pontiac Vibe, that have a '1' as the first number of the VIN. ;) mike >> You forgot to include the brand you buy, or do you think it will never >> breakdown? ;) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > is more American than Ford's Mustang (their Sienna has more American > parts) or DCX. The current Big Three is GM, Toyota, Ford. > You forgot to say in my opinion Do you count the majority of Toyotas > made in Japan and Canada? Do you include the parts from all over the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> is more American than Ford's Mustang (their Sienna has more American >> parts) or DCX. The current Big Three is GM, Toyota, Ford. Mom, Apple Pie and...Toyota? http://tinyurl.com/me54d Read it and weep Mikey. Once again you forgot to say in my opinion ;) mike "Jim Higgins" <gordian238@hotmail.com> wrote in > > Mom, Apple Pie and...Toyota? > http://tinyurl.com/me54d > > Read it and weep Mikey. > Once again you forgot to say in my opinion ;) > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> Read it and weep Mikey. Objective fact is not an opinion, it is fact. EOD. GM has never had a reliable deisel, fords rust at the speed of sound and you wonder why honds and toyota are taking maket share by default? American corporate shortsitedness has bankrupted the auto industry, it deserves to die a natural death so your chinese masters can buy up bankrupt assets at a dime on the dollar. > > Once again you forgot to say in my opinion ;) > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Objective fact is not an opinion, it is fact. EOD. > GM has never had a reliable deisel, fords rust at the speed of sound > and you wonder why honds and toyota are taking maket share by default? > American corporate shortsitedness has bankrupted the auto industry, it > deserves to die a natural death so your chinese masters can buy up > bankrupt assets at a dime on the dollar. Yawn. Lesson 1: Don't top-post. Lesson 2: f.ck off Lesson 3: No one I have known with a GM deisel has had any complaints. Lesson 4: Toyota's rust just as much as anyone else does. Lesson 5: f.ck off, again. >> GM has never had a reliable deisel, fords rust at the speed of sound >> and you wonder why honds and toyota are taking maket share by default? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Lesson 4: Toyota's rust just as much as anyone else does. > Lesson 5: f.ck off, again. Only those incapable of objective evaluation buy Detroit iron, especially the likes of GM. >>> GM has never had a reliable deisel, fords rust at the speed of sound >>> and you wonder why honds and toyota are taking maket share by default? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Only those incapable of objective evaluation buy Detroit iron, especially > the likes of GM. Yawn again. You can take your Honda and follow my 5 lessons as well. Well, at least a couple of them. This crap about top posting is pedantic. THIS is a top post. Absolutely bullshit. > This crap about top posting is pedantic. > > THIS is a top post. > > Absolutely bullshit. It just makes it eaiser to read a post when people post under the previous poster's comments. That's the way I find most helpful anyhow. >> This crap about top posting is pedantic. >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > It just makes it eaiser to read a post when people post under the previous > poster's comments. That's the way I find most helpful anyhow. I suppose it would have helped, too, if "hls" had some reference in the post to which was being referred. <shrugs>  Signaturekai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request >>> This crap about top posting is pedantic. >>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > <shrugs> If you had followed the thread, you should have known exactly what I was referring to, and who made the original remark. Crabbing about top posting is pedantic. When I did not copy the thread, I assumed you would realize that a top post is the same as a bottom post, especially when there is no intervening historical material. For me, reading top posts is far easier than arrowing down to the bottom of a post. Sometimes these threads contain many many intermediate posts. So, arrow down if you like, post at the top if you like. Doesnt really make any difference. <snip> >>> It just makes it eaiser to read a post when people post under the >>> previous [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If you had followed the thread, you should have known exactly what I was > referring to, and who made the original remark. You're ASSuming I have the thread loaded in my newsreader. I don't do that and to ASSume I do is rude. > Crabbing about top posting is pedantic. No, it just makes sense. > When I did not copy the thread, I assumed you would realize that a top > post is the same as a bottom post, especially when there is no > intervening historical material. Right, so your post was worthless. > For me, reading top posts is far easier than arrowing down to the bottom > of a post. Sometimes these threads contain many many intermediate > posts. Then trim the irrelevant material. Signaturekai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request I started to read your post with interest, but it was so disjointed, I gave up. ;) mike > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Then trim the irrelevant material. <top posting from another Windows user corrected> >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> >> Then trim the irrelevant material. > I started to read your post with interest, but it was so disjointed, I gave > up. ;) Then let's discuss beer. There's a nice straightforward topic. Signaturekai www.perfectreign.com || www.4thedadz.com a turn signal is a statement, not a request I started to read your post with interest, but it was so disjointed, I gave up. I guess you drank too much beer ;) mike > <top posting from another Windows user corrected> > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > There's a nice straightforward topic. > If they are made in Canada or Mexico then they are not American. Toyota is > more American than Ford's Mustang (their Sienna has more American parts) True and often forgotten. About 50% of Canada's big 2.5 vehicle production is shipped to the USA. Significant Canadian built vehicles, using parts from "anywhere", are the Chrysler Van and 300 lines. Previous models included the Chrysler FWD mid sized cars. I have a '95 Concord built in Canada and my wife has a '01 Sebring built in the USA. I believe the 2.7L engine in my wife's Sebring is built in Mexico. > > You forgot to include the brand you buy, or do you think it will never > > breakdown? ;) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > more American than Ford's Mustang (their Sienna has more American parts) or > DCX. The current Big Three is GM, Toyota, Ford. Anyone can assemble a product in the US, ask Samsung or Sony, yet they are still japanese products. Just follow the money and see where it ends up...Japan. Its funny how so many people want to claim a Toyota or Honda as an American product as if to convince themselve that they are patriotic and not some sellout. >> > You forgot to include the brand you buy, or do you think it will never >> > breakdown? ;) [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > and > not some sellout. Keep on telling yourself that when Toyota passes GM because Toyota builds a quality product that people want to buy. Then the Big Three will be Toyota, Honda and (maybe) GM. > Keep on telling yourself that when Toyota passes GM because Toyota builds a > quality product that people want to buy. Then the Big Three will be Toyota, > Honda and (maybe) GM. Great! Dont work on cars for a living do ya? The "import lovers" pay me very well. ;) <snip> >> Anyone can assemble a product in the US, ask Samsung or Sony, yet they >> are [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > a quality product that people want to buy. Then the Big Three will be > Toyota, Honda and (maybe) GM. Well, Jim, since you like giving your money to Japan, why don't you move there and leave us the hell alone. > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > Well, Jim, since you like giving your money to Japan, why don't you move > there and leave us the hell alone. That mindset of yours is what got Detroit in failure mode (massive buyouts, plant closings, cars people did not want to buy, losing market share, etc., etc., etc.). Toyota and Honda and Nissan are hiring Americans and opening plants. Unlike Detroit. >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > share, etc., etc., etc.). Toyota and Honda and Nissan are hiring > Americans and opening plants. Unlike Detroit. Hmm, that is rather odd. Last time I checked, GM still outsells the rest of them. How do they do that when people don't want to buy there cars? As for plant closings, where I live, they are building the new Flex plant, where the Camaro is going to be built, so no complaints here. >>><snip> >>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > plant closings, where I live, they are building the new Flex plant, where > the Camaro is going to be built, so no complaints here. Fleet sales. nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >> Hmm, that is rather odd. Last time I checked, GM still outsells the >> rest of them. How do they do that when people don't want to buy there >> cars? As for plant closings, where I live, they are building the new >> Flex plant, where the Camaro is going to be built, so no complaints >> here. Congrats on getting a GM plant near where you live. They build the Chevrolet Cobalt/Pontiac Pursuit near here where I am at. It puts a lot of high paying jobs in our community. Plus besides people who work for GM; there are thousands of jobs that support the GM plant -- parts suppliers, janitorial, trades people, etc.. These thousands of people spend money in the community and help put food on the table of people who don't even work at GM. >>> Hmm, that is rather odd. Last time I checked, GM still outsells the >>> rest of them. How do they do that when people don't want to buy there [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the community and help put food on the table of people who don't even work > at GM. Exactly. I read in a newspaper article here once that for ever line person at my GM plant, 100 (give or take) other people are employed. And, I know for a fact that if the GM plant in Oshawa closed down, my entire municipality would close up as well. People who aren't effected by this usually don't understand it. >>>> Hmm, that is rather odd. Last time I checked, GM still outsells the >>>> rest of them. How do they do that when people don't want to buy there [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > municipality would close up as well. People who aren't effected by this > usually don't understand it. No they don't care to understand they are just loyal to the flag of the Rising Sun in Japan. don't understand it. > No they don't care to understand they are just loyal to the flag of the > Rising Sun in Japan. Timmy Dont be such a redneck. People are trying to relate their own personal experiences. This has nothing to do with Pearl Harbor, the KKK, or the Communist party. People who wont listen and learn are doomed. There is not a single complaint that has been aired here that does not have some merit. I have no dog in the fight where GM is concerned. But I KNOW what my issues are, and GM has done little or nothing to address them. > don't understand it. > >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > are, > and GM has done little or nothing to address them. But you have to admit a lot of people support Japanese simply because of pure hype and that "there ice is colder" mentality. I also know from experience from 2 family members who have owned a Toyota and the other had 2 Mazdas and can say that the mazdas flat out did not hold up well in mechanics or ride quality and the Toyota just always had lingering problems. And I am driving a 97 Pontiac that has only given me 1 problem which is the Intake gasket failure, other than regular maintenance this car has performed great up to today with 133k miles. > But you have to admit a lot of people support Japanese simply because of > pure hype and that "there ice is colder" mentality. I also know from [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > performed > great up to today with 133k miles. There may be some people who believe that Japanese is best, as some used to believe that German engineering and quality was superior...(maybe it was, at one time). The statistics that are published seem to show that certain models of Honda and Toyota are significantly less likely to have failures than the norm. I am sure they have their problems too. The Japanese have a pretty good reputation for repairing their errors with no hassel from dealerships or corporate. True or not, I do not know. My complaint with GM had to do with older short warranties (36000 miles) and failure to address key issues in quality that GM KNEW were their fault. The plastic plenum is only one of them. (Volkswagen has the same shitty reputation) GM has made some progress on warranties, and we can hope that they will listen to what their clients want, and what we dont want, and will respond positively. The problem has been squarely in GM's court... The Japanese didnt get a good reputation by behaving in this manner. Maybe this is an innovation of the Asians that GM can copy. > The Japanese have a pretty good reputation for repairing their errors with > no hassel > from dealerships or corporate. True or not, I do not know. I would say mostly true. I know a friend of mine had his butt kissed by Infiniti on a cheap used G20 back in the day (overrevved it because he missed a shift, got a free new head even after he told the dealership what he did.) I don't know if that is still true but stories like that are plentiful and contribute to the reputation of the Japanese as being overall more forgiving and pleasant to deal with. > My complaint with GM had to do with older short warranties (36000 miles) and > failure to address key issues in quality that GM KNEW were their fault. The > plastic > plenum is only one of them. Agreed! > (Volkswagen has the same shitty reputation) Which is a shame because a lot of VW's problems are supplier problems not problems directly attributable to the engineering or build quality of their vehicles. They're really excellent, solid cars BUT handling of warranty claims by VWoA is... not so good. Don't get me started on the number that I personally have knowledge of... like the A4 window regulators, coil packs, and the A2 heater cores... had VW handled these issues better, they could have built themselves a nice reputation for standing behind their product, but their manner of handling these issues was totally out of character with the overall quality (and let's be honest, purchase price) of their vehicles. > GM has made some progress on warranties, and we can hope that they will > listen [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Asians > that GM can copy. Absolutely. nate If one listened to the import buyer one might think all GM cars fall apart when the warranty expires. I take my 1971 Pinto with 300K on the clock, (you know how bad they were,) to old car shows and it wins awards. Except a 'Z' car or an RX& on occasion, I have yet to see a Jap sedan from the seventies or even the eighties at one of those shows. Lot of British cars (you know how bad they were, German and even Italian sedans but never a Jap car from that time period. LOL mike >> I have no dog in the fight where GM is concerned. But I KNOW what my > issues [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > performed > great up to today with 133k miles. Mike, You are obviously a reasonably intelligent person. Therefore why do think just because no Japanese cars from the 70's are at the shows it is indicative of them being crap? And that because someone with more money than common sense will spend big bucks on the crappy Brit and Italian cars of that era makes them better? You are old enough to remember what lumps of crap those German and Brit cars were, just as you know that the Japanese cars of that time were not any better or worse than the European cars. You are also smart enough to know that today the products produced by the Japanese companies receive much higher customer (real world) satisfaction ratings as reported by that left wing socialist magazine CR. I truly wish that cars made by GM, Ford and the half Nazi company using the Chrysler name were better products. However they are what they are; more of a problem to their owners than Japanese cars. > If one listened to the import buyer one might think all GM cars fall apart > when the warranty expires. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> performed >> great up to today with 133k miles. > > If one listened to the import buyer one might think all GM cars fall apart > > when the warranty expires. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > >> performed > >> great up to today with 133k miles. The Pinto was a POS from the word go but probably sold more copies in the US than all the Japanese makers put together in 1971. Not that their quality was that great either but getting an award for a Pinto is like gettng an award for having a dropped bomb that didn't explode. Sorry couldn't resist ..............but not kidding about the difference in numbers. Had a 66 Mustang that's still one of my favorite cars so not just bashing Ford. During the 80's GM had 12month no rust through warranties. What more needs to be said about quality. If not for the Japanese you'd have to pick up Bondo on your way home from the dealership after buying new Detroit "iron". Meanwhile, back to the future, the only 2 Japanese cars I have experience with is my father-in-laws Accord and a rental Mitsubishi Gallant. The Accord is a great car. The Gallant is a POS. My G Am is much closer to the Accord than the Gallant. Especially considering age differences. It certainly can't be said all Jap cars are better. "T Shadow" <NoOne@nonono.com.invalid> wrote in message news:4594ffeb$0$8925 > The Pinto was a POS from the word go but probably sold more copies in the US > than all the Japanese makers put together in 1971 If I remember correctly, the Pinto came about around the decade there was a national awareness of gasoline shortage and higher prices. The Pinto appealed to many who wanted a bit more economical ride, without having to go to VW or others. It was a miserable piece of sh.t. > During the 80's GM had 12month no rust through warranties. What more needs > to be said about quality. If not for the Japanese you'd have to pick up > Bondo on your way home from the dealership after buying new Detroit "iron". The rustout problem of GM went back further than that. I spoke with an employee of GM at the time who had been in a position to know WHY GM brased steel panels together in areas where water would contact the galvanic couple. His response was that GM knew about the problem and chose to do nothing. Later it was published that GM also knew by surveys that a major motivating factor for people to buy new cars was deterioration of appearance... hence the intentional design defect. The - self destructing 440T4 transmission, - the CS-130 alternator system, - the plastic plenum debacle, - the series of short lived AC evaporator cores, - the exceptionally engineered aluminum silicon engines (which lasted shorter than an orgasm), - the cracking series of Iron Puke engines, - the underdesigned GM power window systems, - the galvanically driven rust at window panels are just some of the innovations from GM. I hope that the Garish Mistress gives up her slutty ways, and becomes the Grand Matron of the American auto industry. Lutz might just have enough cojones to pull it off. > "T Shadow" <NoOne@nonono.com.invalid> wrote in message news:4594ffeb$0$8925 > > The Pinto was a POS from the word go but probably sold more copies in the [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > > are just some of the innovations from GM. Lots of problems back then. Owned a Vega. Luckily my brother worked at the dealership. Just thought the rust through really typified their arrogance at selling crap that they thought people would just have to buy. Seemed to start in the late sixties but was just unbelievable in the late seventies and eighties. Soft cams good for 30K. The 350 diesel. Ironically my step-father had an early 80's Olds(gasoline engine) he put 350K+ on, much of it pulling a 22ft trailer. Without any driveline problems. Finally gave up on it when the body could no longer be held together. > Meanwhile, back to the future, the only 2 Japanese cars I have experience > with is my father-in-laws Accord and a rental Mitsubishi Gallant. The Accord > is a great car. The Gallant is a POS. My G Am is much closer to the Accord > than the Gallant. Especially considering age differences. It certainly can't > be said all Jap cars are better. Mitsushitty is in a class by itself. The only thing they have going for them is the reputation of the other Japanese mfgrs. and the fact that they, too are Japanese. nate In other words you believe the crappy cars from the US and Europe were good enough to still be around but the crappy cars form Japan were not? You are smart enough to know that is only an opinion. My opinion is far different. I have owned many import brands from VW to Lexus they were no better or worse than any of the domestic I have owned. They cost me more, but that is the only difference I discovered. I now buy domestics. The fact is every manufacture today is building good stuff, even the Koreans. Apparently more Americans agree with my opinion than yours, since today they buy more vehicles from GM and Ford than any import. ;) mike > Mike, > You are obviously a reasonably intelligent person. Therefore why do think [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >> >> mike > In other words you believe the crappy cars from the US and Europe were good > enough to still be around but the crappy cars form Japan were not? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Apparently more Americans agree with my opinion than yours, since today they > buy more vehicles from GM and Ford than any import. ;) You can stop typing your boilerplate reply (or are you copying from a text document on your hard drive?) any time, "mike." Anyone with a lick of sense knows you're wrong. All you're proving is that you are incapable of evaluating quality. nate That may be your opinion but what I do know for a fact, based on sales, more Americans prefer the quality of the current GM and Ford vehicles than the quality of any import brand,. Whether you agree or not is immaterial, you can spend your money wherever you wish. I know I do. Surely you do not expect to find only those that agree with your personal opinion in a GM NG. If that is what you want, try one of the Jap brand NGs, WBMA Try a Toyota NG, those guys would have others believe they never breakdown and if they do Toyota will fix them forever. LOL . mike >> In other words you believe the crappy cars from the US and Europe were >> good [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > nate > >> In other words you believe the crappy cars from the US and Europe were > >> good [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > . > mike What makes you think I like Toyotas? I don't particularly, except maybe if someone offered me a twin-turbo Supra I'd be tempted. I am here because I *have* a GM car, although most of the content of this NG seems to be this constant back and forth that you perpetuate rather than real technical information. Perhaps I should pose some questions: 1) What can I do to my Impala so the front end doesn't sound like it's going to fall apart? It's only got 35K miles but it sounds like my old VW did at about 150K miles when the front strut bearings commonly went. Is there a common failure point, or is the whole front end trash? 2) How can I reprogram my transmission so it does not constantly shift and lock/unlock the torque converter? 3) What can I do to temper the loud, blatty exhaust note? It's louder than my Porsche, not nearly as aesthetically pleasing, and frankly, embarassing. 4) Is there any way that I can get enough power out of the car so it isn't constantly downshifting on freeway upgrades? 5) Is there any way that I can retrofit a rear seat that folds down? 6) Is there any way that I can get enough range of adjustment on the tone of the stereo so it doesn't sound like some "boom-boom" system that a techno-loving riceboy installed? 7) I think my car has the wrong column shifter installed. It appears to be a GMC truck part and sticks out way past the steering wheel. Does anyone have the correct GM part number for a column shifter for an '05 Impala? 8) I'm missing my gauges. The car seems to have been built without any of the gauges except for a speedometer, temp gauge, and fuel gauge. If you see them, please let me know. 9) I assume the sound like a coffee can full of bolts being shaken when I engage the A/C is normal? thanks, nate > > >> In other words you believe the crappy cars from the US and Europe were > > >> good [quoted text clipped - 73 lines] > > nate Forgot some. 10) Is there any way to retrofit a proper parking brake? The "kick to release" pedal is useless (as you can't use it as a true emergency brake) and also traps the sole of my shoe under the kick panel, being so close to it. Also, it doesn't work anymore. 11) Is there any way to move the pedals and steering wheel farther towards the rear of the car? I'm only 6' tall but have a hard time folding my legs up enough to exit the car gracefully with the seat in a comfortable driving position. 12) is there any way to retrofit a proper door check strap? The doors are death traps and more than once I've ended up cursing the car because the door will swing closed on me while trying to contort myself out of the car (usually while holding a coffee mug.) 13) Any recommendations for tires that aren't ludicrously tractionless? 14) Exactly how many times do I need to push "unlock" on the remote before the doors actually unlock? Normal procedure seems to be hit button twice, attempt to pull door open, catch fingernail on door handle as hand slips out from underneath, curse, repeat several times, open door. 15) Is there any way to raise the car for more ground clearance? I physically cannot get the car into my driveway without severely scraping the underside. Which is odd, since my Porsche can be driven straight up into it. I'm sure I will have more questions, but that's it for now, I think. nate Seems to me you should have test driven that vehicle before you made the purchase. . ;) mike >> > >> In other words you believe the crappy cars from the US and Europe >> > >> were [quoted text clipped - 121 lines] > > nate I didn't buy it, it's a company car. Most people don't *buy* GM cars. They drive them because that's what their employer buys, or that's what's available at the rental counter. And then they have experiences like mine, and they continue to not buy GM cars as a result of same. nate > Seems to me you should have test driven that vehicle before you made the > purchase. . ;) [quoted text clipped - 126 lines] > > > > nate Perhaps you should be looking at how well you employer maintains their vehicles. ;) mike >I didn't buy it, it's a company car. > [quoted text clipped - 154 lines] >> > >> > nate Most of the issues I listed are shitty DESIGN not shitty maintenance. The car is a POS. Face facts. I could probably have the nonfunctional parking brake repaired, but I shouldn't have to. I could probably have the tires replaced with ones that actually function well, but I shouldn't have to. (and that would have to be at my own expense, since they still have tread left.) How would you suggest the lack of power, thrashiness, busy transmission, and poor ergonomics be addressed? (there's SO many ergonomic problems that this car has that German cars had figured out at least by the early '80s that I doubt I could list them all if I tried.) What about the ludicrously low ground clearance? The sad thing is that the exterior body design is not unattractive, to the point that I thought when I first got it that I might take extra special care of it because I thought it might be acceptable as a personal vehicle and I'd buy it out personally when the lease was up. It's not my type of car, but generally you can get a good deal by buying out your own company car. But after having spent a little more than a year with it, I can't wait until it hits 70K so I can trade it in on something else. There's really nothing to recommend it other than I don't have to pay for it. Driving this car has done nothing but strongly reinforce my belief that it's always better to buy a cheap, beat up German car rather than a new American one. I fondly remember my old 535i that I used to have; at 200K miles and apparently abused by its previous owner, it was still FAR more pleasant to drive than the Impala. (and I feel that that's a fair comparison, as it's almost the exact same size and is targeted at the same market, albeit in a higher price bracket.) There's a REASON that people spend the extra money both up front and in maintenance to drive the cars that you so constantly deride - they really are better. Now I don't expect for GM to build me a BMW. There's a reason that they cost so much. But when I was in college, my roommate had a 70's Impala that he'd inherited from his grandfather. Even though that car was built in the darkest years of the smog era, it was FAR more acceptable as transportation than the '05. I think I'd rather have one of those if it came to it, assuming that I could find one that hadn't rusted away to nothing still. nate > Perhaps you should be looking at how well you employer maintains their > vehicles. ;) [quoted text clipped - 159 lines] > >> > > >> > nate The days when engineers and tech exchanged information in the NGs, are long gone. Today it is just guys looking for a free fix, or to bitch. You will get no help from me, take it to competent tech, WBMA. When I teach a school I get paid. ;) mike >> >> In other words you believe the crappy cars from the US and Europe were >> >> good [quoted text clipped - 83 lines] > > nate > If one listened to the import buyer one might think all GM cars fall apart > when the warranty expires. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > were, German and even Italian sedans but never a Jap car from that time > period. LOL I agree, when a coworker mentioned buying a Japanese car, I asked him how many 20 year old Japanese cars he had ever seen. He couldn't name one. He is looking to replace an 80's caddy that only gets about 10 mpg, he just doesn't realize that he won't get a car that will last like the caddy. Down here in Texas I commonly see vintage mustangs, 70's pickups and Suburbans, etc, my grand am is a 93 and runs better than a modern Ford Taurus that I had to use when my car was in the shop after someone hit it while parked. Up north where a car rusts away in 10 years, it may not matter, but down here an American car will last as long as you take care of it. > > If one listened to the import buyer one might think all GM cars fall apart > > when the warranty expires. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Up north where a car rusts away in 10 years, it may not matter, but down > here an American car will last as long as you take care of it. Cadillacs used to be good cars. And, the people who bought them traditionally did not drive them hard, and performed the required service and repairs. I know a lady who has a DeVille, always garaged, that is a 70 model, I believe, and it only has about 30,000 miles on it. She is willing it to her yardman. It is true that here in Texas most cars dont rust out so badly (exceptions are the GM rear window designed corrosion cells) unless you live along the beach. I dont really think your observations carry a lot of evidence in the quality wars. Lots of factors go into this. Where I live cars rust a lot. There is salt, snow, wet, hot, cold, whatever it takes to let cars rust. Not many cars last 10 years in good condition around here. Toyotas have proven to be best in these conditions and they have had the top selling every year for many years. They have over 25% of the market. A long time ago american cars used to have the top selling but that was very very very long time ago. They hardly show up on the top selling charts anymore. You can guess why that is and I can give a clue. It has to do with overall costs and quality or lack thereof. I guess the situation is similar in other parts of the world. Better do a bit more research, your information in not correct. Toyota is up but Toyota had barely 15% of the market in the US in 2006, not 25%. Domestics sold nearly 10 million of the 16.5 million vehicles sold in the US in 2006 US Commerce sales figures for 2006 GM 4.5 million Ford 3 million Toyota 2.5 million Chrysler 2.4 million Honda 2 million Nissan 1 millions The remainder sold less than 1 million The top seller was the Ford F150 at a rate nearly twice that of the Camry, which was number three in sales. Number two was the Chevy Silverado. mike > Where I live cars rust a lot. There is salt, snow, wet, hot, cold, > whatever it takes to let cars rust. Not many cars last 10 years in good [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the top selling every year for many years. They have over 25% of the > market. GM, Ford and Chrysler are all losing money and have been cutting North American production as their U.S. sales decline. Ford said yesterday that it's quitting the minivan segment and will end production of its Freestar. Sales of the model fell 35 percent last year. Instead, Ford will promote its so-called crossover vehicles, such as the Ford Edge and Lincoln MKX. GM persuaded 34,000 workers to take buyouts in 2006 and sold a majority of its finance unit after reporting about $13.7 billion in losses over the past eight quarters. Ford, which lost almost $7 billion in last year's first nine months, is buying out 38,000 union employees. U.S. automakers may not be able to end sales declines for several years while they develop more fuel-efficient vehicles, said George Magliano, director of auto research at Global Insight Inc. in New York. High gasoline prices are ``entrenched in the consumer mind and they are going to be looking for alternatives,'' such as small SUVs, he said. Maker Volume %Chng Share GM* 4,028,992 -8.5 24.3 Ford* 2,719,959 -7.6 16.4 Toyota 2,542,524 +12.9 15.4 Chrysler* 2,142,505 -6.7 12.9 Honda 1,509,358 +3.5 9.1 Nissan 1,019,249 -5.0 6.2 Toyota saw 12.9% sales growth, with Toyota's Prius sales jumping to 260% their numbers from a year ago. Honda, which usually wears the energy efficiency leader's hat, saw a nearly 3.5% increase in sales. In sharp contrast, the sales of new cars sold by General Motors and other American automakers in March posted decreases from a year earlier. The story goes on to make the conclusion that many have been hesitant about: It shows that energy-efficient Japanese cars have become increasingly popular with U.S. consumers due to the sharp rise in oil prices. > Better do a bit more research, your information in not correct. Toyota is > up but Toyota had barely 15% of the market in the US in 2006, not 25%. [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > the top selling every year for many years. They have over 25% of the > > market. > Where I live cars rust a lot. There is salt, snow, wet, hot, cold, > whatever it takes to let cars rust. Not many cars last 10 years in good [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > clue. It has to do with overall costs and quality or lack thereof. I > guess the situation is similar in other parts of the world. I've had no problems with the rust resistance of my Chrysler cars since the 80s. I drive in all weather conditions and driving to ski hills certainly gives the body a work out. We've kept out last four Chrysler cars 10, 14; now 6 and 12 yrs -still counting. Chrysler was earlier than most foreign cars with galvanized body metal and has used lifetime stainless steel exhausts since '87. A couple of corrections on that thread. Where do people come up with this stuff? The top selling vehicles in the US are sold by GM and Ford. Their vehicles are the sales leaders in nearly every class. Toyota likes to say they are the number one car BRAND in America.. The fact is the only individual model Toyota that leads its class is the Camry, in sales of midsize sedans. However GM sells more midsized sedans, as well as more cars and trucks than Toyota but they have different brand names on the grill. Ford also sells more than the Toyota brand but they have different names on the grill as well. Toyota had never had 25% of the US market 'for many years' or any year for that matter. 2006 was the first year Toyota got to 15%. Both GM and Ford sold millions more vehicles in the US than did Toyota or any other import. The number one selling vehicle in the US in 2006 was the Ford F150 and it has been number one for thirty years. The Silverado outsold the Camry as well in 2006. Do a bit more research on who sells what in the US, WBMA Ford was the first manufacturer to make its cars and trucks with the so called 'stainless steel exhaust systems.' Those exhaust system would last a 'lifetime,' even several lifetimes IF they were indeed made of, and welded with, 'Stainless' steel but they are not made of, or welded with, SS. They are made with .002 of an inch of stainless alloy bonded to mild steel and welded with nickel compound mild steel (#7018). A product developed by the late Bethlehem Steel Company in 1983. It is more akin to galvanized steel and more than twice as expensive per ton. Stainless steel, in comparison, is sold by the pound mike >> Where I live cars rust a lot. There is salt, snow, wet, hot, cold, >> whatever it takes to let cars rust. Not many cars last 10 years in good [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> clue. It has to do with overall costs and quality or lack thereof. I >> guess the situation is similar in other parts of the world. > I've had no problems with the rust resistance of my Chrysler cars since > the 80s. I drive in all weather conditions and driving to ski hills > certainly gives the body a work out. We've kept out last four Chrysler > cars 10, 14; now 6 and 12 yrs -still counting. > Chrysler was earlier than most foreign cars with galvanized body metal > and has used lifetime stainless steel exhausts since '87. > Up north where a car rusts away in 10 years, it may not matter, but down > here an American car will last as long as you take care of it. Pretty much any car is going to last over 10 years up north now without the rust problems of old. I've consistently kept GM's in upstate NY for over 10 years and did not suffer rust through problems. Notwithstanding the issues of the late 70's and early 80's, most cars are holding up against rust quite well now. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > > Up north where a car rusts away in 10 years, it may not matter, but down > > here an American car will last as long as you take care of it. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > of the late 70's and early 80's, most cars are holding up against rust quite > well now. Some of the older Fords - perhaps Thunderbirds and Mustangs- were partially dipped in a zinc rich primer before being painted, I am told. If true, this is one reason why those cars are still on the road today. Dont know if other companies did,or do, follow this procedure. Fiat had a different approach. That sheet metal was essentilly pre-rusted.:>) > > > Up north where a car rusts away in 10 years, it may not matter, but down > > > here an American car will last as long as you take care of it. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Dont know if other companies did,or do, follow this procedure. GM galvanizes a lot of the metal. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net Both companies used single and double sided galvanized steel in lower body components. The rust problem developed later in Fords, than GM vehicles, because GM used steel made by US Steel Co and Ford used steel made by Bethlehem Steel Co. BSCO switched to BOF steel several years after USS. The best steel used in cars today is the 'dentless sheet' steel made by the Mittal Steel Co, at the former BSCO Burns Harbor Michigan plant. Most of the steel used in Japanese cars, assembled in the US and Canada, is made by Nippon Steel Co and imported from Japan mike >> Some of the older Fords - perhaps Thunderbirds and Mustangs- were > partially [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > GM galvanizes a lot of the metal. Rusting cars of yore had little to do with how cars were treated or painted. The rust that started to appear in cars in the early seventies was a result for a new steel making process know as the Basic Oxygen Furnace. Pryor to the BOF, steel was produced in open-hearth furnaces. O-HF used fuel oil to melt the mix of iron and its amalgams in a tub like furnace. The BOF did not use a fuel but rqather the combustibles in the mix by burning them in a high oxygen atmosphere, blown through the mix via a stainless steel lance driven down into a ladle like electric furnace. After a time, as cars the used BOF steel began to rust, it became apparent the "blow" needed to be a few second longer to completely eliminate the impurities that remained in the steel. In other word the rust started within the steel, not from the outside. Current BOF steel is "cleaner" than O-HF steel. It is an awesome experience to see the blow rod driven down into a 100 ton vat at several feet per second, as it is consumed with a deafening roar. ;) http://www.energysolutionscenter.org/HeatTreat/MetalsAdvisor/iron_and_steel/proc ess_descriptions/raw_metals_preparation/steelmaking/basic_oxygen_furnace/basic_o yxgen_furnace_processdescription.htm mike >> > Up north where a car rusts away in 10 years, it may not matter, but >> > down [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > Fiat had a different approach. That sheet metal was essentilly > pre-rusted.:>) > I agree, when a coworker mentioned buying a Japanese car, I asked him how > many 20 year old Japanese cars he had ever seen. He couldn't name one. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Taurus that I had to use when my car was in the shop after someone hit it > while parked. Obviously you own an oil well. Many of us couldn't afford to drive a 10mpg car. My guess is half the guy in the NGs can't even afford to drive a 20 MPG vehicle, let alone be looking to buy a new one. How many are still bitchin' about the GM car they bought ten years ago when they complain about what GM makes today. When some talk about their 'new' car they are talking about the three year old car they just bought ;) mike >> I agree, when a coworker mentioned buying a Japanese car, I asked him how >> many 20 year old Japanese cars he had ever seen. He couldn't name one. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Obviously you own an oil well. > Many of us couldn't afford to drive a 10mpg car. I guess it is only where you live and where you supposely checked it. Humm, Toyota and Honda is top seller in these here parts. > >> <snip> > >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > plant closings, where I live, they are building the new Flex plant, where > the Camaro is going to be built, so no complaints here. That's wierd, because when I worked for Toyota, most of the major repairs where on the used cars that usually GMC, Chevy, Ford, Mazda..American vehicles and when I worked at Dodge and Chevy most of the major repairs was on Dodge and Chevy's. Don't figure....who knows. I'm patriotic, but I don't like spending my free time working on my own cars, my friends and my families cars. Who ever assembles the Toyotas or Hondas do a great job, because they are by far more reliable and dependable. Maybe there has been a SMALL decline in the workmanship of these vehicles, but not too much. I have owned Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Mazda, VW, Honda and Toyota vehicles and out of all of these cars the Toyota and Honda vehicles needed less work and lasted the longest. To each their own. James > > <snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > etc., etc.). Toyota and Honda and Nissan are hiring Americans and opening > plants. Unlike Detroit. > That's wierd, because when I worked for Toyota, most of the major > repairs where on the used cars that usually GMC, Chevy, Ford, [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > James If you want to talk about assembly quality, GM's Oshawa car plant has been ranked as the highest quality plant in North or South America, by J.D. Power & Associates. And that, is a fact. We won it last year as well. "80 Knight" <NOMORESPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message > If you want to talk about assembly quality, GM's Oshawa car plant has been > ranked as the highest quality plant in North or South America, by J.D. > Power & Associates. And that, is a fact. We won it last year as well. Good for you guys. Of the last three GM cars I've owned, only one had a minor assembly problem that was fixed easily by the dealer. Paint and fit of body parts has been greatly improved over anything in the past. GM has made big strides in assembly over the past 15 or 20 years. What they still lack though, is some better designs on some models. Assembly though, is only of factor in making a quality car that sells well. When you sell millions of vehicles, pennies sure add up, but if they added $50 to the cost of a car, they could probably save the consumer thousands in repair bills. I should not have to hold the cruise control on by jamming the switch with a toothpick. I should not have to prop up the power windows with a stick of wood. I should not have to replace a $560 seat bottom to replace a $15 heating element. They make great car that lasts for 75,000 miles. > "80 Knight" <NOMORESPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > $560 seat bottom to replace a $15 heating element. They make great car > that lasts for 75,000 miles. Those are your own experences. I have owned 9 cars. 8 Pontiac's and 1 Oldsmobile. I loved each and every one of them. Sure, some had problems, but the ones that had the major problems were into the 300,000 KM's range. I just find it odd that some people say there Toyota will never break down. Give me a break. I don't care what you buy, it will break down on occasion. > Those are your own experences. I have owned 9 cars. 8 Pontiac's and 1 > Oldsmobile. I loved each and every one of them. Sure, some had problems, > but the ones that had the major problems were into the 300,000 KM's range. > I just find it odd that some people say there Toyota will never break > down. Give me a break. I don't care what you buy, it will break down on > occasion. Of course, all cars can break down, and some are lemons....I dont believe anyone here said that a Toyota will never break down. Some of us here have had LOTS of trouble with GM cars. And we are frankly not too happy about it. >> Those are your own experences. I have owned 9 cars. 8 Pontiac's and 1 >> Oldsmobile. I loved each and every one of them. Sure, some had problems, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > anyone here said > that a Toyota will never break down. No, but some of you seem to think Toyota's are gifts from God. > Some of us here have had LOTS of trouble with GM cars. And we are frankly > not too happy > about it. I have had break down's as well, and I wasn't happy about it either. It happens. Cars break down. Computers break down. TV's break down. It is a fact of life. All my point is if you don't like GM, then that beg's the question, why are you here? If all you have to say about GM is bad, then what is the point? about GM is bad, then > what is the point? We bought a ticket to be here by having supported GM cars for years. > say about GM is bad, then >> what is the point? > > We bought a ticket to be here by having supported GM cars for years. You don't get my meaning. Everyone has the 'right' to be in a newsgroup. What I am asking is why would you want to be in one, where all you do is bitch and moan? I, for example, don't like Honda's, but I don't go to the Honda newsgroup and bitch about how ugly there cars are. I also don't watch Survivor, and you won't find me there either. Like I said, everyone has the right to be in any group, but it is rather Trollish to only participate negatively. > > say about GM is bad, then > >> what is the point? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > right to be in any group, but it is rather Trollish to only participate > negatively. Agreed, the constant bitching and moaning from these people is very annoying. This thread is also way over due for the grave. > > > say about GM is bad, then > > >> what is the point? [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Agreed, the constant bitching and moaning from these people is very > annoying. This thread is also way over due for the grave. I've voiced my opinion on this matter a couple of times, directly to the Death Watch Guard. I'm no believer in GM, right or wrong, but I've been a GM guy for decades. I'm very disappointed in some of the longstanding issues that GM has put us through, like the 60 degree gasket issues, and I believe GM has brought a great deal of their current distress upon themselves, but on the other hand I don't care to see the GM Is Dying, It Ain't Soon Enough threads. There's those who cross post their stuff and bring nothing to this group besides clutter, and I'd just as soon see them take their rants to some other group. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > > say about GM is bad, then > >> what is the point? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > right to be in any group, but it is rather Trollish to only participate > negatively. I *remember* good GM vehicles. Heck, my dad still has one in his driveway. I'm here because a) I do have a fondness for the older GM products and b) I currently have an '05 Impala as a company car (no choice in the matter.) Is it wrong to stand up and express my honest opinion when people say things like "you're unpatriotic if you don't buy GM" or "there's no difference between a GM car and (insert import maker of your choice here)" or should I just nod and say yes, you're right, GM certainly doesn't have any ergonomic, performance, or quality issues these days and public perception of their inferiority must simply be a mass delusion? Personally I think we do GM and ourselves a disservice by not expressing our dislike of their current product offerings and not encouraging them to build the products that we really want to buy. nate You keep saying the same things over an over but the fact of the mater is more American still buy millions more vehicles from GM than any import. Obviously your opinion has not contributed to who buys what, so why do you keep saying the same things about GM in a GM NG, where most buyer disagree with what you have to say about how bad you think their vehicles might be? If you don't like what GM has to offer, buy something else and stop complaining here mike >> > to >> > say about GM is bad, then [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > nate (top posting fixed) > >> > to > >> > say about GM is bad, then [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > If you don't like what GM has to offer, buy something else and stop > complaining here Of course I keep saying the same things. Your posts do nothing to change the FACTS that my Impala is an annoying POS, the FACT the widespread perception of American buyers is that American cars are of inferior design and quality to imports, and the FACT that imports offer higher resale value, are more pleasant to drive, and generally are more reliable and durable than their American counterparts. Also I don't have time to continuously prove your assertions wrong, but you have been wrong with your sales figures in the past, and I suspect that you don't really check them, you just make sh.t up. The problem is that GM is full of apologists like you who just can't understand why we DO buy something else. I would LOVE to see GM healthy and offering something I want to buy. Please, GM, start listening. nate > (top posting fixed) > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > nate Neither Mikey nor GM is apt to listen any time soon, both have a dead end mindset. To think that the Board and Marketing that got GM into this hole is the same set that is going to fix the mess is ludicrous. I don't own a GM vehicle but GM sales are up for the fourth quarter, according to the latest stockholders report. LOL mike >> (top posting fixed) >> [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > mindset. To think that the Board and Marketing that got GM into this hole > is the same set that is going to fix the mess is ludicrous. Once again you forgot to say in my opinion. You keep saying the same things over and over, but GM stills sells more vehicles than any import, regardless of what you happen to think of GM vehicles. ;) mike > (top posting fixed) > [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > > nate (top posting fixed YET AGAIN) > > (top posting fixed) > > [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > mike Again, you keep repeating this over and over, but news reports repeatedly indicate that GM's market share is slipping. http://wardsauto.com/keydata/USSalesSummary0611.xls how do you explain that all of the big three are losing market share while every import brand but Isuzu, Mitsubishi, and Nissan are gaining? How do you explain that the TOP FOUR passenger cars are the very import models that you consistently deride in your posts? Clearly the general public knows something you don't. Perhaps the only reason you can continue to make your claim is because GM's light truck sales are propping up their abysmal passenger car line? Wasn't it only a couple decades ago that the Olds Cutlass was far and away the US passenger car sales leader? Not even counting its platform-mates? Seems to me like GM had a good thing going and somehow managed to screw it all up. nate By at least doubling their sales? You keep changing the subject from who sells more to who is gaining in the market. Their is no question imports are gaining in the market. Today there are twenty or more bands, not six or so when they sold half of the vehicles sold in the US. The operative term is 'share of the market.' GM sells more vehicles today, although their share of the 18,000,000 vehicles sold is lower than their share when the market was for only around 7,000,000 annually. Trucks counted for less than 10% of sales, today they account for around 50%. Most to the growth in imports over the past ten years has been in trucks as well, not cars The fact is no mater how you try to spin it, GM sells millions more vehicles in the US than any import, period Somebody obviously prefers what they have to offer in the market place, get over it ;) mike > (top posting fixed YET AGAIN) > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > nate (top posting fixed YET AGAIN - learn to post, jackass!) >>(top posting fixed YET AGAIN) >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >>nate > By at least doubling their sales? You keep changing the subject from who > sells more to who is gaining in the market. Their is no question imports > are gaining in the market. Today there are twenty or more bands, not six or > so when they sold half of the vehicles sold in the US. The operative term > is 'share of the market.' GM sells more vehicles today, although their > share of the 18,000,000 vehicles sold is lower than their share when the > market was for only around 7,000,000 annually. Trucks counted for less > than 10% of sales, today they account for around 50%. Most to the growth in > imports over the past ten years has been in trucks as well, not cars The > fact is no mater how you try to spin it, GM sells millions more vehicles in > the US than any import, period Somebody obviously prefers what they have > to offer in the market place, get over it ;) > > mike get over what? I think it is you that need to get over your delusion that GM is a thriving business. It is not. Time to wake up and smell the coffee. If their sales have indeed doubled since the heyday of the Cutlass, it is because the market size has *more* than doubled. The goal of any business is growth, and the truth is that GM's market share (along with Ford's and DC's) is a shadow of what it once was, as are profits. BTW, how are Oldsmobile sales doing this year, anyway? nate Signaturereplace "fly" with "com" to reply. http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel >> > to >> > say about GM is bad, then [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > nate Like I said before. You, and everyone else, is free to like and buy what ever they wish. If you like Honda's, that's fine with me. If you hate GM, that fine with me too. All I am saying is there are some people who come in here just to bad mouth GM, it's products, and its customers, and I don't see any reason why they should do that. There is a difference between conversation, and outright saying GM will die, or GM is a gonner, and what have you. "80 Knight" <NOMORESPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message > Those are your own experences. I have owned 9 cars. 8 Pontiac's and 1 > Oldsmobile. I loved each and every one of them. Sure, some had problems, > but the ones that had the major problems were into the 300,000 KM's range. > I just find it odd that some people say there Toyota will never break > down. Give me a break. I don't care what you buy, it will break down on > occasion. Yes, they are my experiences. That is why I recently bought a Hyundai. Is it better? I can't tell you for about 5 more years. It is not just a matter or things breaking. Anything mechanical will eventually wear out or break, no matter what the brand. There are ways though, of designing parts to last longer, there are ways of working with the customer when things do break at a bad time. GM pissed me off when my heated seat broke in the second winter (but beyond 36k miles) and was unwilling to help me with a reasonable solution. It went downhill from there. GM was too late in giving a decent warranty also. 36k is nothing on a car today. I've owned 23 cars. Most have been GM. Most have been good. Overall, any car bought today is better than any car bought years ago, but that does not mean they are as good as they can be. Best value in a car? The Karmen Ghia I bought for $15 comes in second to the Pontiac Tempest I bought for $50, drove for a year, and sold back to the original owner for $100. > "80 Knight" <NOMORESPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> Those are your own experences. I have owned 9 cars. 8 Pontiac's and 1 [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > with a reasonable solution. It went downhill from there. GM was too late > in giving a decent warranty also. 36k is nothing on a car today. You stopped buying GM because your heated seat broke? Yikes. And, GM has extended there warranty. > I've owned 23 cars. Most have been GM. Most have been good. Overall, any > car bought today is better than any car bought years ago, but that does > not mean they are as good as they can be. Best value in a car? The > Karmen Ghia I bought for $15 comes in second to the Pontiac Tempest I > bought for $50, drove for a year, and sold back to the original owner for > $100. I agree. Most modern cars are far superior to earlier cars. People buy what they want, and they are free to do that. It just pisses me off when people come in here wanting GM to go down. " |
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