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Car Forum / GMC Cars / April 2008GM to pay in coolant repair cases
GM to pay in coolant repair cases http://tinyurl.com/yoxklt WASHINGTON -- General Motors Corp. has agreed to pay as much as $800 each to millions of customers to settle lawsuits that it sold about 35 million vehicles with faulty coolant and engine parts. The move announced by lawyers Wednesday would close one of the largest product-liability lawsuits faced by a U.S. automaker. GM declined to say how much it expected the settlement to cost, but the agreement gives payments to customers even if they bought the vehicles used. The suits stem from GM's use of Dex-Cool, a coolant it first introduced in its vehicles in 1995 and sold in more than 35 million cars and trucks between 1995 and 2004. About 14 federal and state lawsuits seeking class-action status have been filed against GM over a variety of problems in V6 engines linked to Dex-Cool. Thousands of customers have complained of problems ranging from small coolant leaks to complete radiator and engine failure. Court documents show that GM has received tens of thousands of repair requests linked to Dex-Cool and engine gaskets in the affected engines, and considered recalls for some models. Under the settlement approved by a California judge last week, people who paid for Dex-Cool-related repairs on 3.1-, 3.4-, 3.8- or 4.3-liter V6 engines within seven years or 150,000 miles are eligible for some payment from GM. Repairs made within the first five years are eligible for up to $400, while sixth-year repairs could receive $100 and seventh-year repairs $50. If the damage went beyond the engine's cooling systems -- as many customers claimed -- GM is to reimburse them up to $800. The company will also allow owners who made multiple repairs to apply for multiple repayments. GM spokesman Tom Wilkinson said the company settled the case because the lawsuits were "time consuming and expensive." He said GM was unable to estimate how many consumers might apply for payments. As part of the settlement, GM is to pay $18 million in lawyers' fees and expenses. The settlement covers 49 states, excluding Missouri, which has an identical settlement authorized by a different court. Owners and customers who have paid for Dex-Cool-related repairs have until Oct. 27 to submit a claim. Further details of the settlement and instructions for applying for payments are available at www.dexcoolsettlement.com.  SignatureCivis Romanus Sum > GM to pay in coolant repair caseshttp://tinyurl.com/yoxklt > [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > -- > Civis Romanus Sum This is very interesting. Looks like GM sent out a time bomb with every car for 10 years ! Amazing ! I am sure a lot of experts knew this practice was wrong for a long time. Either GM has no experts or they knew what they were doing and intentionally made the cars to be with less lifetime so they would need to be replaced sooner. It is similar to what Ford did when he sent people to investigate what parts in the cars being retired were still good so they could use cheaper parts. This was the final straw as I am concerned. I thought that GM was trying to make good cars but were just sloppy in management but it is obvious they do not care about their customers at all and are just like the medicine men in the past trying to sell anything as long as they can find anyone with money and sell them false hope. > This is very interesting. > Looks like GM sent out a time bomb with every car for 10 years ! > Amazing ! Why are you amazed? You were not aware of the intake gasket issues for the past 15 years? > I am sure a lot of experts knew this practice was wrong for a long > time. > Either GM has no experts or they knew what they were doing and > intentionally made the cars to be with less lifetime so they would > need to be replaced sooner. Or they simply elected to use inferior parts with the expectation that people would just fix them, and it would never come back to haunt them. Save on the manufacturing costs. Would have nothing at all to do with building them so that they would have to be replaced sooner. > This was the final straw as I am concerned. Why? You needed a class action decision to convince you of the problems that had been identified over a decade ago, and verified by tens of thousands of cars? Why should this decision have any effect on your opinion of GM? > I thought that GM was trying to make good cars but were just sloppy in > management but it is obvious they do not care about their customers at > all and are just like the medicine men in the past trying to sell > anything as long as they can find anyone with money and sell them > false hope. If it took you this long to realize that, then your powers of observation are sorely lacking. Are you related to Mike Hunt? Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> This is very interesting. >> Looks like GM sent out a time bomb with every car for 10 years ! >> Amazing ! > > Why are you amazed? You were not aware of the intake gasket issues for > the past 15 years? The link indicates that the reimbursements are about $400 up through the 5th year of the car's life, drop to $100 in the 6th year, and $50 in the 7th year. So, IMO, they are still dodging a substantial portion of the blame. As in many other cases, GM knew they were producing crap, and continued to do it without conscience. And dumb old us continued to buy said crap. >>> This is very interesting. >>> Looks like GM sent out a time bomb with every car for 10 years ! [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > do > it without conscience. And dumb old us continued to buy said crap. Oh - I agree. To top that - how are most of the previous owners of those cars, who paid for repairs, or performed them themselves, going to document those repairs now? GM will get out of this pretty light. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > >>> This is very interesting. > >>> Looks like GM sent out a time bomb with every car for 10 years ! [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > -Mike- > mmarlowREM...@alltel.net GM will not get out of this lightly. This is one more nail in their coffin. The money part of this is nothing compared to the loss of reliability and show how low quality they have been willing to put on their products. The goodwill of GM is gone and the badwill is growing. Getting goodwill is something you earn through trust. When you do not have goodwill and you do not have trust it is only a question of time before you can close the doors. > GM will not get out of this lightly. > This is one more nail in their coffin. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > When you do not have goodwill and you do not have trust it is only a > question of time before you can close the doors. Unfortunately, the gasket debacle is not the end of the story for GM. New Impala's have problems consuming anti-freeze. You can talk to a dealer mechanic and he'll tell you they have no idea where the coolant is going. Right after that, he'll tell you they're not aware of any gurgling problems with the Impala that accompany the car not being able to throw heat while sitting still. Throws heat just fine while it's going down the road, but throws cold air if it's not moving. Nope - no problem there. This is exactly the kind of thing that took me from a 30 plus year GM bigot, and place 2 Hyundai's and a Mitsubishi in my driveway these days. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> GM will not get out of this lightly. >> This is one more nail in their coffin. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > This is exactly the kind of thing that took me from a 30 plus year GM > bigot, and place 2 Hyundai's and a Mitsubishi in my driveway these days. Just curious, but do you have any links about this problem with Impala's? You're speaking of the 2007+ model, right? I'm not being sarcastic (its a first for me, I know), I just haven't heard anything about this. 90% of our Police force use the brand new Impala's, and we build them here too, so I should've read about it by now. > Just curious, but do you have any links about this problem with Impala's? > You're speaking of the 2007+ model, right? I'm not being sarcastic (its a > first for me, I know), I just haven't heard anything about this. 90% of > our Police force use the brand new Impala's, and we build them here too, > so I should've read about it by now. I wish I did have one, but I don't. You're right though - lots of police depts use them so it would seem this problem would have gained more attention by now. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> Just curious, but do you have any links about this problem with Impala's? >> You're speaking of the 2007+ model, right? I'm not being sarcastic (its [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > depts use them so it would seem this problem would have gained more > attention by now. I'll keep looking. If I find anything, I'll post it. Good point. The fact is most problems surface first among large cooperate and government fleet because the generally run up higher mileage in a much shorter time period. Large cooperate and government fleet receive much better service and things that can go wrong show up in those vehicles sooner. Our fleet service business, that serviced thousands of fleet vehicles, was one of the first to discoverer problems with gaskets after asbestos was banded as well as one of the first to discover sludge accumulation it Toyota V6 engines that were serviced to Toyota standards. Our higher than average instances of warranty claims was noticed early on by the manufacturers >> Just curious, but do you have any links about this problem with Impala's? >> You're speaking of the 2007+ model, right? I'm not being sarcastic (its [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > depts use them so it would seem this problem would have gained more > attention by now. That's funny! You would most likely hate both Hyundai and Mitsubishi if you were buying the crap that they were both selling not too long ago as well LOL >> GM will not get out of this lightly. >> This is one more nail in their coffin. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > This is exactly the kind of thing that took me from a 30 plus year GM > bigot, and place 2 Hyundai's and a Mitsubishi in my driveway these days. >>> This is very interesting. >>> Looks like GM sent out a time bomb with every car for 10 years ! [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > do > it without conscience. And dumb old us continued to buy said crap. I disagree, even though I replaced my gasket at about 80k miles other than that it has been a great dependable nice riding car that is holding great with over 140k miles. My interior and body and paint is in excellent condition except for some door dings. Engine still nice and tight too. > I disagree, even though I replaced my gasket at about 80k miles other than > that it has been a great dependable nice riding car that is holding great > with over 140k miles. My interior and body and paint is in excellent > condition except for some door dings. Engine still nice and tight too. That would be quite characteristic of GM vehicles. They are notoriously good to drive for 200,000 miles with only routine oil changes, and care not to let them overheat. The body does hold up well on them. I do not think they produce junk at all. Your experience is not unique, but it's also not completely the norm either. Many of the 60 degree engines have required gaskets two or three times over their lives. Some of that may be due to gasket material, and some to other design issues. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > That would be quite characteristic of GM vehicles. They are notoriously > good to drive for 200,000 miles with only routine oil changes, and care not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > gaskets two or three times over their lives. Some of that may be due to > gasket material, and some to other design issues. When my 95 GP cracked the gasket, I thought it was toast. But my local mechanic said it might be able to salvage it. He repaired it, and run 3 oil changes in one day through it with flushing everything. (He used old oil except for the last.) The car was great when I got it back. Anyway, I had asked him if it was worth it, mileage and all, and if the problem was something I should worry about again. He told me when he first started doing those repairs, they would repeat. Usually at less mileage each time. Then he started getting some aftermarket gasket that I thought he said had more and different metal, but I may be mistaken on that. Anyway, he said since he started using the aftermarket gasket, he hasn't had a single repair come back to be done again. > When my 95 GP cracked the gasket, I thought it was toast. But my > local mechanic said it might be able to salvage it. He repaired it, and [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > on that. Anyway, he said since he started using the aftermarket gasket, > he hasn't had a single repair come back to be done again. That's pretty much the way it went Mike. For the first several years, both OEM and after market gaskets would fail after the repairs had been performed. With the evolution of the gaskets, this got better over time, but it took a very long time for really improved gaskets to hit the street. Today's gaskets are far better than what used to be available, but even at that, the after market gaskets are ahead of what GM offers, in terms of reliability. Using new bolts has improved the reliability of the repair also, pointing to movement issues between the parts, that can't simply be laid at the feet of the gaskets. The shame of it all in my opinion, is that I believe all of the 3.X L engines are great engines, notwithstanding the gasket issues (and the plenum issues in the 3.8L). The 3.1L does suffer from piston slap on cold starts, and that's not comforting, but those engines seem to be quite unaffected by it. If GM had not been so much in denial about the gasket issues, and had tackled that issue head on, my opinions today would be much different. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > > That would be quite characteristic of GM vehicles. They are notoriously > > good to drive for 200,000 miles with only routine oil changes, and care [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > on that. Anyway, he said since he started using the aftermarket gasket, > he hasn't had a single repair come back to be done again. I just got informed by my dealer today that my 08 G5 GT is under recall for coolant leak. Is this the same thing you guys have been posting about? > I just got informed by my dealer today that my 08 G5 GT is under recall > for coolant leak. Is this the same thing you guys have been posting > about? It might be. Keep us informed about the recall as you follow up with your dealer. I will find it very encouraging if GM is handling this issue more appropriately than they did the intake gasket fiasco. It would certainly restore some confidence for me. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > > I just got informed by my dealer today that my 08 G5 GT is under recall > > for coolant leak. Is this the same thing you guys have been posting [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > appropriately than they did the intake gasket fiasco. It would certainly > restore some confidence for me. Yes I will post back when I know more. >> I disagree, even though I replaced my gasket at about 80k miles other than >> that it has been a great dependable nice riding car that is holding great [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >gaskets two or three times over their lives. Some of that may be due to >gasket material, and some to other design issues. Ahhh... you need to take a look at my 2002 Monte Carlo..... Purchased new. about 6 months after purchase, moisture got behind a piece of body trim, froze and pushed it away from the body. Covered under warranty, I pointed it out to the dealer body shop guy... he said... you'll need to leave the car for a week to get it replaced. Rear tailight assy... has 3 plastic studs... I noticed mine was loose a few months after picking it up from the dealer (should have checked it beforehand ) one stud was broken off. It now has 57 K on it.... my remote door locks don't work, 12volt accessory plug ( aka cigarette lighter ) doesn't work, and the lower intake manifold gasket requiress replacement. This is on a 5 year old car driven slightly over 10K miles per year and kept garaged. What's wrong with the picture. Now I'll have to admit, my cars don't get all that much driving or abuse and they are kept garaged. Also located in the mid-eastern states... we're not in the rust belt or the flood zone, or the oven zone. Kinda mild and temperate. So it's not under extreme weather or off road conditions like you see in all those commercials on TV. I also have a 1990 Olds Silhouette... almost 18 years old with ONLY 120 K miles which is slightly less than 6.5K per year. Let's see... hmmm not counting normal maintenance items... tires, brakes. fluid changes two alternators 600.00 repair power steering hose 400.00 repair rack and pinion 1000.00 repair two water pumps 400.00 repair Intake manifold gasket replacement 800.00 repair current problems and those not fixed... blower motor, not working... might be motor, might be control panel. wiper bearing shot, motor control board stops wipers in mid-stroke. heat core started leaking two years ago... I haven't bothered to replace it. rear door latch broken... already replaced once oil leaks from somewhere... haven't figured this one out... might be a valve cover. At 120K this APV is ready for the junkheap. my girlfriends 1994 Buick Regal....55 K bought new..seldom used... not counting normal maintenance items... tires, brakes. fluid changes alternator 250.00 repair upper manifold replacement 800.00 repair air conditioner switch 300.00 repair My neighbors have honda's and toyota's and volvo's which take a beating (they're soccer mom's with mid size families whose husbands commute in gridlock traffic everyday....)... They give me their deepest sympathy for owning GM cars... they truly feel pity for me.... Their cars work... mine don't simple as that. My girlfriends former car was a 1984 Honda... bought new and owned until 2002 (which was her daily commute car in a gridlock city where nothing moves ). not counting normal maintenance items... tires, brakes. fluid changes, which she never did anyway unless absolutely necessary After 18 years Wheel Bearing 300.00 This tells me a lot. >>> I disagree, even though I replaced my gasket at about 80k miles other >>> than [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > > This tells me a lot. It tells me a lot too. Your a moron. If you don't like GM's, why do you keep buying them? Just to you can bitch and moan about it? Get a life. >>>> I disagree, even though I replaced my gasket at about 80k miles other >>>> than [quoted text clipped - 103 lines] > It tells me a lot too. Your a moron. If you don't like GM's, why do you > keep buying them? Just to you can bitch and moan about it? Get a life. Could be you got a lemon, there is one in every batch. Hi! (tale of Monte Carlo woe snipped) > What's wrong with the picture. I think you got a lemon...! > two alternators 600.00 repair > power steering hose 400.00 repair > rack and pinion 1000.00 repair > two water pumps 400.00 repair There's more to the story here. Was this work all done at the same place? Did you do it yourself? I find it hard to believe that any of the parts could possibly have cost that much! Labor gets expensive quickly if you have to pay to have something done. (It's my opinion that this is especially true at dealerships. Other folks may disagree with me on that.) > Intake manifold gasket replacement 800.00 repair I've got a 1990 Lumina Eurosport sitting in my yard that may need to have them done. As much as I may not want to, the car is in really good shape otherwise, runs fine and I'll probably learn something in the process. > blower motor, not working... might be motor, might be control panel. If all the speeds don't work, it's probably the motor. Missing speeds are most likely a result of a bad resistor pack. > wiper bearing shot, motor control board stops wipers in mid-stroke. Instructions for fixing this are readily available. They've been posted to alt.trucks.chevy many times in the past. If you have a soldering iron and some hand tools, you can really fix it. > rear door latch broken... already replaced once I've heard of this being a problem on many mini-vans. > At 120K this APV is ready for the junkheap. Oh, I don't know...if you didn't mind digging into it and spending a little time and money, it could be fixed. > This tells me a lot. I believe very strongly in the concept that some car maker's products and people don't get along well. ;-) I've worked on a lot of vehicles over the years, and there are things I like and hate about many popular cars. On the GM front, I think very highly of most of their powertrain setups. I'm not so thrilled with how they rust or the way some things are a real trick to work on. More than one late-80s Buick has been here and running/driving great while the body was rusting off of it. I've got one here now that hasn't seen the best of care over the years, and the body is really rusty, but the powertrain is still strong at over 250,000 miles. William >Hi! > >(tale of Monte Carlo woe snipped) >> What's wrong with the picture. > >I think you got a lemon...! I think I got a pain in the a.s car. Along with a pain in the a.s dealer. It's like, hey guys I really don't want to rent a car for several days and travel back and forth, while you figure out how to replace a simple piece of body trim. >> two alternators 600.00 repair >> power steering hose 400.00 repair [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >There's more to the story here. Was this work all done at the same place? >Did you do it yourself? First alternator was done by a mechanic.... I did the second one myself. The Rack and Pinion and power steering hose were both done by the same place. Unexpectedly, I brought the van in to have a inner tie rod end replaced. (no flats so it could not be removed while on the vehicle). The mechanic mentioned that when he pulled off the boot, there was fluid leaking, so he changed the rack and pinion. 1 grand worth of work. Not something I was ready to learn while laying flat on my back in the drive. About 2 months later, the van is losing PS fluid... leaky hose by the crimp joint. I couldn't get in there with a wrench while lying on my back... so back to the garage it went. another 400.00 shot. >I find it hard to believe that any of the parts could possibly have cost >that much! Labor gets expensive quickly if you have to pay to have something >done. (It's my opinion that this is especially true at dealerships. Other >folks may disagree with me on that.) We're talking about 125.00 an hour shop time PLUS another 10% of the bill goes to shop charges... ( usually capped at $50.). Personally, I think a mechanic deserves to make a living... some of these systems are pretty complex. Having to constantly learn new skills, repair complex problems and deal with irate people. That's gotta be worth something. A pretty fair percentage of that amount also goes to TAXES... the shop owner pays taxes, the mechanic pays taxes...and YOU get to give them the money needed to share the money with Uncle Sam. I wonder... all told how much money actually goes to taxes. Probably a lot when you consider Fed / State / Local / FICA this is before rent, insurance, supplies, utilities and coffee for the customer. I don't think a lot of that $125.00 goes to the mechanic, plus he probably makes out on some jobs and loses out on others depending upon how often he beats the ' book '. >> Intake manifold gasket replacement 800.00 repair > >I've got a 1990 Lumina Eurosport sitting in my yard that may need to have >them done. As much as I may not want to, the car is in really good shape >otherwise, runs fine and I'll probably learn something in the process. >> blower motor, not working... might be motor, might be control panel. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >I've heard of this being a problem on many mini-vans. My previous Lumina APV had the same problem... replaced that one twice. >> At 120K this APV is ready for the junkheap. > >Oh, I don't know...if you didn't mind digging into it and spending a little >time and money, it could be fixed. Forgot to mention the transmission 'chatter' and the broken door latch. Also, it's a 3 speed. Hell on gas. >> This tells me a lot. > >I believe very strongly in the concept that some car maker's products and >people don't get along well. ;-) No idea whatsoever..... I do have a lot of familiarity with the 3.1's and 3.8's so fixing them is occasionally easy. My daughter is driving an MR2 which can be a PITA to work on due to the very tight, cramped conditions. >I've worked on a lot of vehicles over the years, and there are things I like >and hate about many popular cars. On the GM front, I think very highly of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >William Thankfully there are many people here on alt.gm who have willingly and unselfishly given me a lot of advice and direction.... Shep, Ian, Mike Marlow, HLS and Steve W. just to name a few.... I am very grateful to them as they've taken the time to explain why as well as what to do in many instances. That's what keeps auto repair fun.... being able to continue learning... and fixing more than you break. In a way... these guys keep me motivated by their tremendous knowledge and expertise. As a result I've been able to tackle a lot more of the jobs, thanks to the help and support recieved from this newsgroup. The prices are real, the labor was darned expensive..... and you can see how much it is possible to save by DIY'g. Some things I'd like to try in the future are replacing a rack and pinion, replacing a half axle, and maybe rebuilding a transmission and engine. Just don't want to learn them on an APV. Peter <Peter> wrote in message > We're talking about 125.00 an hour shop time PLUS another 10% of the bill > goes to shop charges... ( usually capped at $50.). Personally, I > think a > mechanic deserves to make a living... some of these systems are pretty > complex. That's a pricey shop rate. Around here in CT it is closer to $65 to $75. Shop charges are 2%. IMO, shop charges should be built into the price and not a separate line item to bleed a little more money from you. I do remember being in New York City about 18 - 20 years ago and a BMW dealer had a rate of $98 back then so I imagine it is up at least 25% in that time. That is pretty high labor rates. My dealer (in the Dallas metro area) just raised their rate to $95 per hour a couple of weeks ago, and that is still lower than some independents I would not allow to change my oil. Roy > <Peter> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > dealer had a rate of $98 back then so I imagine it is up at least 25% in > that time. > That is pretty high labor rates. My dealer (in the Dallas metro area) just > raised their rate to $95 per hour a couple of weeks ago, and that is still [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> dealer had a rate of $98 back then so I imagine it is up at least 25% in >> that time. Keep in mind that regardless of the shop rate the hired mechanics don't make ANYWHERE near that amount. Most of the shops around here pay between 16-22 bucks an hour to the guys doing the wrench work. Now consider that most of them also have to supply their own tools, along with buying some of the special tools for odd vehicles and probably their own scan tool as well. That can kill $15,000.00 REAL easy. Unless you work out all the tricks and ways to beat book time on a job you won't be making much money. SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York "Steve W." <csr684NOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message > Keep in mind that regardless of the shop rate the hired mechanics don't > make ANYWHERE near that amount. Most of the shops around here pay between > 16-22 bucks an hour to the guys doing the wrench work. > > Unless you work out all the tricks and ways to beat book time on a job > you won't be making much money. But some guys can pull down 50 to 60 hours pay in 40 hours by beating the book. > "Steve W." <csr684NOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message >> Keep in mind that regardless of the shop rate the hired mechanics don't [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > But some guys can pull down 50 to 60 hours pay in 40 hours by beating the > book. True, but they are few and far between. Plus you want to be sure that, although they are working fast that they are doing a good job as well. I've seen a few that work real fast that I wouldn't trust to work at a Jiffy lube. SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York >>> I disagree, even though I replaced my gasket at about 80k miles other >>> than [quoted text clipped - 99 lines] > > This tells me a lot. All I can say is my mom drove a 85 Camry that had problems until she dumped it at 80k miles and bought a Chevy. My brothers wife drives a Mazda from a new purhase that has had 2 transmissions before 100k miles. "A boy named Soo" <boobooju@yahoo.com> wrote in message >>>That would be quite characteristic of GM vehicles. They are notoriously >>>good to drive for 200,000 miles with only routine oil changes, and care [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>>not >>>completely the norm either. > All I can say is my mom drove a 85 Camry that had problems until she > dumped it at 80k miles and bought a Chevy. My brothers wife drives a Mazda > from a new purhase that has had 2 transmissions before 100k miles. Fact is, every brand of car has it individual vehicles that perform poorly and every brand has some that go for many miles with no problems. Overall, the typical car today is far superior to the typical car of years ago, no matter who made it or the country of origin. I bought my first non-GM car in many years because I was unhappy with my present one, but that certainly won't fix the old one or absolve the new one from problems. I was not happy about rebuilding the transmission, but, that is the first time in 46 years of driving that I'd had to do a serious repair on a transmission. If you compare the cars of the '50s and '60s that we grew up with and still love the styling, they were poorly built and had very high routine maintenance. Clean your plugs at 5,000 miles, replace plugs, points, rotor at 10,000 miles. Oil change and chassis lube at 2000 miles. Common to do a ring job at 50,000 miles, maybe bearings too. Muffler was good for a couple of years and flat tires a few times a year. Once you got the new car home from the dealer you started a list of things for the dealer to repair under warranty. Common to have 10, 20, or even more items on that list. Of the last four cars I bought new, one has one defect from the factory, another had none for six months, the other had none for a year, my present car has none on 18 months and 34k miles. >> This is very interesting. >> Looks like GM sent out a time bomb with every car for 10 years ! >> Amazing ! > > Why are you amazed? You were not aware of the intake gasket issues for the > past 15 years? You mean the minor fact that it was a change in the gasket material mandated by federal laws on asbestos that caused the entire problem for the auto industry. >> I am sure a lot of experts knew this practice was wrong for a long >> time. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Save on the manufacturing costs. Would have nothing at all to do with > building them so that they would have to be replaced sooner. Or they had NO choice in the matter and followed the law. >> This was the final straw as I am concerned. > > Why? You needed a class action decision to convince you of the problems > that had been identified over a decade ago, and verified by tens of > thousands of cars? Why should this decision have any effect on your opinion > of GM? Tens of thousands of cars out of tens of MILLIONS of cars running Dex-Cool. >> I thought that GM was trying to make good cars but were just sloppy in >> management but it is obvious they do not care about their customers at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If it took you this long to realize that, then your powers of observation > are sorely lacking. Are you related to Mike Hunt? The real problem is NOT the Dex-Cool. Never has been. If it was the coolant that was a problem why don't ALL the vehicles using it show problems? The problem is and always has been a result of the gaskets going bad. That is why GM started using a redesigned gasket that eliminates the problem. SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York Life is not like a box of chocolates it's more like a jar of jalapenos- what you do today could burn your a.s tomorrow! "Steve W." <csr684NOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message > The real problem is NOT the Dex-Cool. Never has been. If it was the > coolant that was a problem why don't ALL the vehicles using it show > problems? The problem is and always has been a result of the gaskets going > bad. That is why GM started using a redesigned gasket that eliminates the > problem. I agree, Steve..I dont think the DexCool destroyed gaskets either, although I dont think it is the best coolant that could have been used, with respect to engine corrosion. There was a problem with the gaskets. Other motor companies did not seem to have this level of problems, and that indicates to me that it was something more than just the problem with gasket changes. The mechanical aspects of those engines' mating surfaces and assembly have been suspected. Whatever the factors, GM has some responsibility in the matter. > "Steve W." <csr684NOT@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to > engine corrosion. But these engines aren't suffering from corrosion problems until the gaskets fail. And it's not so much corrosion problems after the gaskets fail, it's the coolant oxidizing, clumping/coagulating causing problems like plugged heater cores. > There was a problem with the gaskets. Other motor companies did not seem > to have this level of problems, and that indicates to me that it was > something > more than just the problem with gasket changes. Who else uses the gasket design like GM uses on their V engines? The mechanical aspects of > those engines' mating surfaces and assembly have been suspected. > > Whatever the factors, GM has some responsibility in the matter. > But these engines aren't suffering from corrosion problems until the > gaskets fail. And it's not so much corrosion problems after the gaskets > fail, it's the coolant oxidizing, clumping/coagulating causing problems > like plugged heater cores. That is part of the overall process, Aarcuda. Aluminum is not so well protected by this sort of technology. Corrosion of iron can lead to the formation of insoluble organic acid "soaps" that are slimy, shoeleather gunks. And it doesnt take much corrosion to set off this situation. > Who else uses the gasket design like GM uses on their V engines? I dont know who else does. Apparently few to none, since other companies did not have the problems GM did, it seems. The lack of asbestos in those gaskets was claimed to be the main factor for their failure, but of course Ford and Chrysler would have been bound by the same laws. So, that is not the best excuse. The silicone beads are more likely the cause, whether it happens by product quality or installation or even mechanical design. I have opened "good", relatively low mileage, engines and have found those silicon prepped areas to be on the point of failure. I contacted the aftermarket gasket manufacturers about this several years ago, and Felpro did answer that they knew of the problem and were working on gaskets to solve it. I believe, in fact, they came out with the improved gaskets which mitigated the problem. Whether this was planned obsolescence, bad engineering and materials selection, or just an unlucky star for GM, one expects better from any prime American company. Buy a Yugo, you get a Yugo. GM has documentably a long history of allowing problems to continue in their line of cars. These are problems or defects they KNOW about, but choose not to do anything about. We have been over them before...You know what they are. "The real problem is NOT the (the gaskets.) Dex-Cool. Never has been. If it was the (the gaskets) that was a problem why don't ALL the vehicles using (the gaskets) show problems? That is why (the gasket manufactures) started using (the proper materials in the) gasket that eliminate(d) the problem." ;) >>> This is very interesting. >>> Looks like GM sent out a time bomb with every car for 10 years ! [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > bad. That is why GM started using a redesigned gasket that eliminates the > problem. > "The real problem is NOT the (the gaskets.) Dex-Cool. Never has been. If > it was the (the gaskets) that was a problem why don't ALL the vehicles > using (the gaskets) show problems? That is why (the gasket > manufactures) started using (the proper materials in the) gasket that > eliminate(d) the problem." ;) No one but you have ever suggested it was the gasket that was the fault. It was the gasket that failed, causing the problems. That was a GM design issue. Exactly what the design flaw or flaws were, I don't really know. The point remains that GM stood alone in the line up of manufacturers that had such a long running design, complete with its known problems. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net What color I the sky in you world? Ask any of the Toyota, Ford, Chrysler, VW and Honda etc. owners that had a gasket problems, for years after asbestos was banded, if they think GM was the only manufacturer to suffer losses, because the gasket manufacture failed to meet the vehicle manufacturers design specs for the gaskets they made for ALL of those afore mentioned vehicle manufactures. You might want to ask the insurance companies, for those gasket manufactured, why they paid 80% of costs for those losses if it was a GM "bad gasket design" that was the fault L OL >> "The real problem is NOT the (the gaskets.) Dex-Cool. Never has been. If >> it was the (the gaskets) that was a problem why don't ALL the vehicles [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The point remains that GM stood alone in the line up of manufacturers that > had such a long running design, complete with its known problems. > What color I the sky in you world? Ask any of the Toyota, Ford, > Chrysler, VW and Honda etc. owners that had a gasket problems, for years [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > manufactured, why they paid 80% of costs for those losses if it was a GM > "bad gasket design" that was the fault L Ah - more of Mike's irrelevant distractions. So Mike - how long did those gasket problems persist for Toyota, For, Chrysler, VW and Honda? It's no small wonder you stay stuck in the mode of repeating the same mantra over and over again - you really do fail to grasp the points being made by other posters. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >>> This is very interesting. >>> Looks like GM sent out a time bomb with every car for 10 years ! [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > mandated by federal laws on asbestos that caused the entire problem for > the auto industry. Oh no Steve - you're starting to sound like Mike Hunt. This argument has been beaten to death. >>> I am sure a lot of experts knew this practice was wrong for a long >>> time. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Or they had NO choice in the matter and followed the law. Why didn't every other manufacturer have the same continuing problems for over 10 years? >>> This was the final straw as I am concerned. >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Tens of thousands of cars out of tens of MILLIONS of cars running > Dex-Cool. Tens of thousands was almost certainly low. How about nearly every 3.1 and 3.4 produced during that time period. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net > > GM to pay in coolant repair caseshttp://tinyurl.com/yoxklt > [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > > This is very interesting. For you I am sure it is. Just imagine all those TENS OF MILLIONS of GM product out there on the road today, just waiting to implode. Hell, all you Toyota guys that feel the need to come over to the GM group must be getting your rocks off big time. Just checked my four Gm products in my driveway (don't need but two of them, the other two are for fun), and I feel the upmost confidence that thay will all do what they are supposed to do when I need (or want) them to do. I think that the millions of GM products on the road today, and those which will be be sold tomorrow will be allright. As far as the Toyota lovers go: You guys are the freaking absolute KINGS, when it comes to recalls. Get your own house in order first. Stay in your own groups until then. > Looks like GM sent out a time bomb with every car for 10 years ! As I stated earlier, I have four "time bombs" in my driveway right now. Please pray for me in the event that I may need something reliable in the case of an emergency. Of course, I guess it could be worse. I could own a Toyota, the God-ordainded super, never failing, perfect automobile, that nowdays, consistantly recalls more vechicles than it sells. But that is ok, as, what is the term that is used??? Oh, yeah, they do take care of their problems. > Amazing ! Get a grip! Go back to your Toyota group; stop coming over here bashing the GM product, which is supeiror to the crap you produce, and looks a helluva lot better, to boot. And while your at it, please, Take a hike! > I am sure a lot of experts knew this practice was wrong for a long > time. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > - Show quoted text - <coachrose13@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:ef341342-dd1d-4f92-b66e- Stay in your own groups until then. I dont believe you direct the traffic here, coachrose ;>) On Mar 27, 8:26 am, Gosi <gos...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Mar 27, 11:55 am, Jim Higgins <gordian...@hotmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > > This is very interesting. For you I am sure it is. Just imagine all those TENS OF MILLIONS of GM product out there on the road today, just waiting to implode. Hell, all you Toyota guys that feel the need to come over to the GM group must be getting your rocks off big time. Just checked my four Gm products in my driveway (don't need but two of them, the other two are for fun), and I feel the upmost confidence that thay will all do what they are supposed to do when I need (or want) them to do. I think that the millions of GM products on the road today, and those which will be be sold tomorrow will be allright. As far as the Toyota lovers go: You guys are the freaking absolute KINGS, when it comes to recalls. Get your own house in order first. Stay in your own groups until then. > Looks like GM sent out a time bomb with every car for 10 years ! As I stated earlier, I have four "time bombs" in my driveway right now. Please pray for me in the event that I may need something reliable in the case of an emergency. Of course, I guess it could be worse. I could own a Toyota, the God-ordainded super, never failing, perfect automobile, that nowdays, consistantly recalls more vechicles than it sells. But that is ok, as, what is the term that is used??? Oh, yeah, they do take care of their problems. > Amazing ! Get a grip! Go back to your Toyota group; stop coming over here bashing the GM product, which is supeiror to the crap you produce, and looks a helluva lot better, to boot. And while your at it, please, Take a hike! Time to take your meds, coachrose. Are you related to Mike Hunt ? > On Mar 27, 8:26 am, Gosi <gos...@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Mar 27, 11:55 am, Jim Higgins <gordian...@hotmail.com> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > > Time to take your meds, coachrose. Are you related to Mike Hunt ? Thus spaketh the Traffic Director. SignatureCivis Romanus Sum > > <coachros...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >news:ef341342-dd1d-4f92-b66e-052fb73b4b86@m71g2000hse.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 119 lines] > > - Show quoted text - And the "Traffic Director" has now thus directed thou to Takeuth a hike, son! BTW, Jimbo, I was looking for you over in the Toyota group a while ago, and couldnt find you. > <coachros...@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 110 lines] > > - Show quoted text - Actually, the heaviest does of medicine I usaully take is a glass of water, Thanks for your concern, though. Also glad you countered points I made,as well. You could have, instead, resorted to insults. BTW, you probably have more in common with Mike Hunt than I. You both share the same first name. You guys related??? Sorry, Mike Hunt. I just wonder if GM will pay to get DeathCool OUT of my car!! Reminds one of Toyota ending its "class action" problem with its ongoing sludge problem that pushed off the solution to the problem with their extended ten year warranty. It is hard for the shark lawyers to pursue a class action when the company offers a warranty for all claims. In both cases the manufacturer gets off the hook, the lawyers reap the rewards and the buyers get screwed ;) > GM to pay in coolant repair cases > http://tinyurl.com/yoxklt [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > instructions for applying for payments are available at > www.dexcoolsettlement.com. I have a 97 GA with the 3.1. but I bought mine in Dec. of 1997 with only 8k mile on it from a dealer who leased it as a rental, so I am not really the original owner. I had the intake replaced at about 80k miles. Currently have over 140k miles on it. My question is since I am the second owner am I eligible for the refund? Or must I be the original owner? >I have a 97 GA with the 3.1. but I bought mine in Dec. of 1997 with only 8k >mile on it from a dealer who leased it as a rental, so I am not really the >original owner. I had the intake replaced at about 80k miles. Currently >have over 140k miles on it. My question is since I am the second owner am I >eligible for the refund? Or must I be the original owner? Newsgroups are the best place to ask legal questions. Thank you for your interest and we will be contacting you shortly. If you also need financial planning and want to make out your will, include that information also. We're here to help. >>I have a 97 GA with the 3.1. but I bought mine in Dec. of 1997 with only >>8k mile on it from a dealer who leased it as a rental, so I am not really [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If you also need financial planning and want to make out your will, > include that information also. We're here to help. If he can prove that he had the repairs performed, then he would be the person who would be reimbursed, as I read the link. Maybe I am wrong. But since that is a 1997 car, the time to failure would determine whether he got enough money back to worry with, if any at all. Ok, maybe it's the cold meds talking, but I'm really confused by this settlement. The site (and this article) say for repairs done within (x) many years of vehicle delivery, but it also says vehicles covered are 1995-2003. So, say I have a 96, just had repairs done last year, I'm SOL? If so, this isn't much of a settlement for those that still drive older vehicles yet only recently had the death-cool issue, not to mention when did (how long did) the "fixed" gaskets (take to) come to market? Someone please clarify for me, thanks :) -GV >GM to pay in coolant repair cases >http://tinyurl.com/yoxklt [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >instructions for applying for payments are available at >www.dexcoolsettlement.com. > Ok, maybe it's the cold meds talking, but I'm really confused by this > settlement. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > -GV If you took delivery in 96 and had repairs done in say, 99, you'd get a larger portion that your same 96 model after twelve years of use. Eventually, every part on that car will fail, it is just a matter of time, be it 12 months, 12 years, or 120 years. Don't expect to be covered forever. Dex cool aside, gaskets do fail from the constant heating and cooling of years of use. >If you took delivery in 96 and had repairs done in say, 99, you'd get a >larger portion that your same 96 model after twelve years of use. >Eventually, every part on that car will fail, it is just a matter of time, >be it 12 months, 12 years, or 120 years. Don't expect to be covered >forever. Dex cool aside, gaskets do fail from the constant heating and >cooling of years of use. I guess my point is (in the example) that if it took longer than 7 years for the problem to manifest itself (albeit it STILL happened) and the car still had under 150k by that time...even though you shelled out big bucks to get it fixed (because the car was still overall solid) you're SOL, right? Still doesn't seem fair to me, but maybe this damn cold still has my head cloudy and I don't "get it" yet. BTW, could you roll a head gasket job into this as well? I've heard of a lot of situations, thanks to the lower intake manifold gasket going, that the engine would overheat, thus blowing the head gasket, and sometimes, the heads themselves needing a trip to the machine shop. -GV . > BTW, could you roll a head gasket job into this as well? I've heard > of a lot of situations, thanks to the lower intake manifold gasket > going, that the engine would overheat, thus blowing the head gasket, > and sometimes, the heads themselves needing a trip to the machine > shop. I haven't heard or seen any such situations. The intake gasket leaks are small leaks which cause their own problems, but overheating an engine to this point is a driver issue. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >I haven't heard or seen any such situations. The intake gasket leaks are >small leaks which cause their own problems, but overheating an engine to >this point is a driver issue. Sludge/oatmeal in engine = poor cooling = overheat = (potential) head/gasket. -GV >Ok, maybe it's the cold meds talking, but I'm really confused by this >settlement. [quoted text clipped - 58 lines] >>instructions for applying for payments are available at >>www.dexcoolsettlement.com. My 2002 Monte Carlo just developed the gasket leak at 55,000 miles no water in the oil just yet, but you can smell the anti-freeze burning off the engine. I have'nt' looked to see how bad it is just yet, but am keeping the coolent topped off. Several questions.... do GM dealers recognize that this is a faulty component and are they making repairs at reduced prices ??? How much would I expect to pay for a repair.... gasket replacement only. Is this a DIY job and if so... how long is it expected to take and will the parts be reimbursed by the settlement ?? Any thoughts ??? Thanks !!! Peter > My 2002 Monte Carlo just developed the gasket leak at 55,000 miles > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > component > and are they making repairs at reduced prices ??? Some have. It all depends on how much your GM dealer values you. For the most part they didn't help the customer any. > How much would I expect to pay for a repair.... gasket replacement only. Gasket kit is around $50 - $75. Felpro gaskets available on the aftermarket are your best bet. > Is this a DIY job and if so... how long is it expected to take and > will the > parts be reimbursed by the settlement ?? If you're pretty capable with your wrenches, it's certainly within the grasp of the DIY'er. Expect upwards of 8 hours for your first time through this job. Half that after you've done one. Don't get your push rods mixed up! DAGS and you can find procedures on the net for doing the job. Signature-Mike- mmarlowREMOVE@alltel.net >> My 2002 Monte Carlo just developed the gasket leak at 55,000 miles >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] >job. Half that after you've done one. Don't get your push rods mixed up! >DAGS and you can find procedures on the net for doing the job. Thanks Mike.... at least it's from the top of the car and not from underneath... I'll pick a nice spring day... get some fresh air and tackle the job. Might as well, because, seems that chances might be I"ll be doing it again in another 80 - 100 K. ( the residual resale value is so low it doesn't make sense to sell it). Thx again... Peter >>>instructions for applying for payments are available at >>>www.dexcoolsettlement.com. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >Peter Another question that just came to mind. Should I be using Dex Cool at all, given that there is enough evidence to justify a class action settlement, or should I move to the all purpose Prestone ?? Damn, I bought the car figuring GM might be trying to improve it's products.. (and Consumer Reports did not mention one darn thing about this problem). Why do I feel ripped off ?? Thanks again !! Peter >>>> instructions for applying for payments are available at >>>> www.dexcoolsettlement.com. [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Peter Nothing wrong with the Dex-Cool. Just in peoples minds. Think about this if it was JUST the coolant being the problem why is it that the only engines affected are the same intake design? Why is it that ALL GM vehicles are not suffering these failures? The problem is the result of a gasket that was a bad design. Made that way due to the regulations the govt. put in place regarding asbestos use. If you look at the design of the engine and the way the gaskets are installed it is real easy to see why they failed. GM isn't the only one with this problem but some of the the other makers used a better gasket design with metal reinforcement. That coupled with the lack of clamping pressure on the gaskets due to the revised intake bolt design cause gasket failure. If you look at the intake bolts you will find that instead of passing through the intake into the head at a 90 degree angle so they apply even pressure across the face of the head/intake interface. Instead they go through at a 45 degree angle and clamp the bottom of the intake tight by wedging it into the valley between the heads. This applies a lot of clamping pressure at the bottom of the gasket with decreasing pressure the farther up the interface area you travel. Think about using a clamp on two parts, if you want even pressure you put the clamp in the center, not at one edge. With the pressure difference the top part of the gasket can move around more than the bottom. The motion of the heads as they heat up and shift and the intakes motion as it heats up also cause problems. What is the result, the gasket fails at the stress line. If you do a bunch of these repairs you can actually stack the failed gaskets and you will find the failure points within 1/2" area on the ends of the gasket. If you look at the newest design for the gaskets you can see the difference in the construction. When you remove the old gasket look right at the edge of the gasket and you will likely find the cracked section that caused the failure. It sticks out like a sore thumb when you see it. SignatureSteve W. Near Cooperstown, New York Life is not like a box of chocolates it's more like a jar of jalapenos- what you do today could burn your a.s tomorrow! >>>>> instructions for applying for payments are available at >>>>> www.dexcoolsettlement.com. [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] >section that caused the failure. It sticks out like a sore thumb when >you see it. Good explanation... thanks.... I'll be looking for the failure point and checking old gaskets against newer after market products. Unfortunately GM has lost a lot of credibility due to the way they allowed the dexcool issue to continue. Maybe they should have explained the problem just as you have... not difficult to understand. Thanks for taking the time to explain... that helps tremendously !! Peter <Peter@nospamme.com> wrote in message > how long is it expected to take and will the > parts be reimbursed by the settlement ?? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Peter Thank you for contacting the legal advice portion of GM newsgroup. As I see it, GM will not only give you free parts, but for your trouble you will also receive a gift certificate to take your family out to dinner. You must, however, drive the family in the GM car to the restaurant. Real lawyers can charge up to 50% of your portion of the settlement fund, but in my case, just send me the dessert from your dinner. ><Peter@nospamme.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Real lawyers can charge up to 50% of your portion of the settlement fund, >but in my case, just send me the dessert from your dinner. Done !!! Did you want that cheesecake with Strawberry or Cherry Topping ?? Grand Marinier Liqueur on the side ??? Planning on calling the dealer tomorrow.... just to see if he'll offer any price breaks... Got my copy of Alldata printed out.... just in case the dealer says all the wrong words like "No" $700.00 take it or leave it. I survived 3.1 gasket changes, 3.8 manifold changes... marriage and home ownership. This too shall be a piece of cheesecake. On the plus side, while trying to gather as much information as I can.... visiting www.advanceautoparts.com they've just posted a recall for an air compressor due to a possibility of it catching on fire. Looks vaguely familiar... so I head down to the dungeon to take a look.... yupp.... same model Strike Force 3.5HP 4.6 gal dual tank. Recall says...." may overheat and catch fire " Charbroiled Cheesecake anyone ?? Peter It would have been so much smarter for GM to deal with the problem early and to take care of their customers the right way. Now the damage to reputation is done AND the lawyers get to collect a pile of cash. And to think that in the US we pay our automotive executives 5x-10x what Toyota and Honda pay theirs. John |
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